Shorties vs. LTubers Debate

[Glenn]

Hey, I'm not done yet.

is ok Glenn we will have some fun at sshs10 this fall. then LT's vs shorty's its on for sure.:flamer:

I admire your competitiveness, but in all honestly for you to cut 1/2 second off your et without MAJOR work and money is just not gonna happen - period!

Glenn Ford :flamer:

[musclemerc]

At first look I was thinking how did they unlock my thread then I opened it and saw this!
I'm cracking up over here Glenn. You are the best!

[babbage]

Glenn - Lido ran 11.40's years ago with a totally stock exhaust. So that proves that a stock exhaust is better than shorties.







The above statement doesn't quite compute does it? This is the same type of statement you are making Glenn.

[Glenn]

Comparing us to Lidio with a professional performance shop?? Com'on - that's not remotely fair. Also, Lidio used Nitrous. Let's all get our facts right in this discussion.

"Ride 03 Marauder Engine type and displacement 4.6L Induction S/C + Nitrous Major modifications Trilogy Blower, 13.7psi, 4.10's"
Glenn :flamer:

[RR|Suki]

Comparing us to Lidio with a professional performance shop?? Com'on - that's not remotely fair. Also, I believe Lidio used "Gas".

Glenn :flamer:

And you need to run a race gas tune. . . what's your point? Run with a 93 octane tune and you'd go what. . . 12.9? :lol:

[Glenn]

And you need to run a race gas tune. . . what's your point? Run with a 93 octane tune and you'd go what. . . 12.9? :lol:


Your too fast on the draw - Gas is Nitrous.

:lol::lol::lol:

Glenn

[FordNut]

The only test that has been done in a really controlled fashion is the NA race to the 12's. Otherwise there are just too many variables.

The rules were: any bolt-ons, stock long block specs, no aftermarket cams, no head porting. Bolt-ons include gears, ported intake, any exhaust mods desired, pulleys, water pump, MAF, throttle body, CAI, etc...

The closest to making the 12's NA have had Long Tube Headers. Has anybody with Shorty Headers, Stock manifolds, or Cobra manifolds even broken the 13.5 barrier?

[RR|Suki]

Your too fast on the draw - Gas is Nitrous.

:lol::lol::lol:

Glenn

no kidding, that's what I was saying, he sprayed, and you use a race gas tune, so why does it matter that he sprayed? Congrats on being so slow that you didn't see that. Fail.

[ctrlraven]

Has anybody with Shorty Headers, Stock manifolds, or Cobra manifolds even broken the 13.5 barrier?
I will very shortly :burnout:

[babbage]

The only test that has been done in a really controlled fashion is the NA race to the 12's. Otherwise there are just too many variables.

The rules were: any bolt-ons, stock long block specs, no aftermarket cams, no head porting. Bolt-ons include gears, ported intake, any exhaust mods desired, pulleys, water pump, MAF, throttle body, CAI, etc...

The closest to making the 12's NA have had Long Tube Headers. Has anybody with Shorty Headers, Stock manifolds, or Cobra manifolds even broken the 13.5 barrier?


Yep, I agree. Who was the guy offering $100 for the first N/A MM in the 12's - just ask him because he of all people would have known or realized
that the fastest N/A MM's had LT's

:flamer::D

[Joe Walsh]

I don't think that you could argue that Shorties make more power than LTs....it's just a matter of best bang-for-the-buck.

LT's are expensive compared to Shorties.

If you are truly a 'best value' racer, you'd run shorties and nitrous.

[RR|Suki]

I don't think that you could argue that Shorties make more power than LTs....it's just a matter of best bang-for-the-buck.

LT's are expensive compared to Shorties.

If you are truly a 'best value' racer, you'd run shorties and nitrous.

Seems like the long and short of it to me, that's why these threads make me laugh. Big power has been made on stock exhaust. Hell I made 460whp on stock exhaust. There are lots of ways to make X power.

[musclemerc]

Brian, I don't think it can be done with the original rules in play. I've been thinking about the race to the 12's and here's what I came up with. It would probably take: pully's, either electric or EMP WP, 62mm Tbody, PSRI, 96~98 Cobra cams, CNC ported head's, CAI, 3000stall, 4:10'so, dyno tune,and yes Shorty header's (I think they will be needed to make up for the torque lost from the PRSI).
Basically everything but the kitchen sink.

[ctrlraven]

Yep, I agree. Who was the guy offering $100 for the first N/A MM in the 12's - just ask him because he of all people would have known or realized
that the fastest N/A MM's had LT's

:flamer::D
That would be Glenn who was offering up the $100.

[Mr. Man]

That would be Glenn who was offering up the $100.
Was is the key word here. He gave up last year and spent his money

[Joe Walsh]

Was is the key word here. He gave up last year and spent his money

He was just trying to avoid the inevitable....:P

[ctrlraven]

Was is the key word here. He gave up last year and spent his money
Yeah I know, he wanted someone to prove him wrong on his time scale.

[FordNut]

Who was the guy offering $100 for the first N/A MM in the 12's


That would be Glenn who was offering up the $100.


Was is the key word here. He gave up last year and spent his money


Yeah I know, he wanted someone to prove him wrong on his time scale.

I seriously doubt it will EVER happen. If it happens AND it's on SHORTY headers I'll pay the $100.

[FordNut]

Yeah I know, he wanted someone to prove him wrong on his time scale.

BTW, I believe it was the NA 12's contestants that kept saying "wait until fall", now it's the following summer and we're still waiting.

[RR|Suki]

BTW, I believe it was the NA 12's contestants that kept saying "wait until fall", now it's the following summer and we're still waiting.

shhhh don't know, you go faster with less power :P

[Joe Walsh]

I wonder who bought TripleTransAm's OEM 14.56 Marauder??
That is the kind of 'just right' Marauder engine that might be coaxed into the 12s N/A.

Post #14:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22849

You are starting off .75 -> 1.0 seconds quicker than most everyone else.

[ctrlraven]

BTW, I believe it was the NA 12's contestants that kept saying "wait until fall", now it's the following summer and we're still waiting.
I also didn't expect to split from my wife and start proceedings for a divorce. :banana:

It also only took me 3 years to finally have my 4.10 gears installed, you and everyone else we'll get their 12's NA when I'm ready. :lol:

[FordNut]

I also didn't expect to split from my wife and start proceedings for a divorce. :banana:

It also only took me 3 years to finally have my 4.10 gears installed, you and everyone else we'll get their 12's NA when I'm ready. :lol:

I know, unexpected crap happens. Glenn and I didn't plan to be jobless either.

[ctrlraven]

I know, unexpected crap happens. Glenn and I didn't plan to be jobless either.
It certainly does.

So question, what about Cobra manifolds, would they be classified under "stock" alike or shorties? Kind of always wondered that since last year.

[FordNut]

Good question... They're supposedly better than stock, but I suspect the primary reason for that is that a high flow midpipe is readily available. I doubt that the Cobra manifolds are as good as shorty headers.

[RacerX]

Good question... They're supposedly better than stock, but I suspect the primary reason for that is that a high flow midpipe is readily available. I doubt that the Cobra manifolds are as good as shorty headers.
On that note, yes, I've dug up quite a bit on that, did anyone ever port match those cobra manifolds??? I can't believe how un-matched they are! For the heck of it, I've been port matching those to my port matched heads. Until I get shorties. I'm not looking for any single mod to give me my end goal. I'm trying to make evrything breathe better from MAF to tailpipe for the end results.

[musclemerc]

No one as far as I know. The Cobra manifolds were the only option for along time. They will hands down out flow the stock setup.



On that note, yes, I've dug up quite a bit on that, did anyone ever port match those cobra manifolds??? I can't believe how un-matched they are! For the heck of it, I've been port matching those to my port matched heads. Until I get shorties. I'm not looking for any single mod to give me my end goal. I'm trying to make evrything breathe better from MAF to tailpipe for the end results.

[LANDY]

BTW, I believe it was the NA 12's contestants that kept saying "wait until fall", now it's the following summer and we're still waiting.
That was my plan too, I went to sshs9 and laid down several passes of 13.8@ 100mph. I had every bolt on, but t/c, electric wp, throttle bodie,and naz intake, then ordered a 3500 tripple disc, and meziere wp. And wrecked the car the same day the t/c arrived then bought this 12sec beast. Like you said Brian, **** happens.
Landy

[LANDY]

Hey, I'm not done yet.

is ok Glenn we will have some fun at sshs10 this fall. then LT's vs shorty's its on for sure.:flamer:

I admire your competitiveness, but in all honestly for you to cut 1/2 second off your et without MAJOR work and money is just not gonna happen - period!

Glenn Ford :flamer:
Old man, :lol:
I never said I was going to smoke you. We never know what will happen. Just fun. Not a bragger around here.:beer:

[Glenn]

no kidding, that's what I was saying, he sprayed, and you use a race gas tune, so why does it matter that he sprayed? Congrats on being so slow that you didn't see that. Fail.

Running a 100+ HP shot of GAS is NO comparision to a race gas tune that gives you 20+ HP. Let's be fair in our comparisions.

Glenn Ford :argue:

[RR|Suki]

Running a 100+ HP shot of GAS is NO comparision to a race gas tune that gives you 20+ HP. Let's be fair in our comparisions.

Glenn Ford :argue:

You are either an idiot or a clown. You dyno'd at 440whp on a pump gas tune. . . that is 110MPH in the 1/4 maybe. You think that the race gas tune is only giving you 20whp? So in your world 20hp = 8MPH in the 1/4? That's why having any conversation with you is a joke, everything you say is garbage. It's more like 80whp to go from 110mph to 118mph. So it is a fine comparison in that it's stupid either way, whatever method he used to get to 11.4 on stock exhaust is what it is. Why is your run on a race gas tune, "proving how great shorties are" more valid than lido on spray with stock exhaust?
...That's right it's not, it shows how idiotic it is, because there are a lot of different ways to make power, and it has nothing to do with the shorties or long tubes or any of it because apparently you can go faster on stock exhaust, you just have to do different things. So why do anything to the exhaust at all? Just spray the car :lol:

(in case you miss it, that what rhetorical, and was in reference to shorties, not everyone wants to have to run a race gas tune just to run an 11. My car makes the same 11 second power everyday I drive it to work)

[babbage]

I seriously doubt it will EVER happen. If it happens AND it's on SHORTY headers I'll pay the $100.


rofl! Funny Brian! :D:D But at the same time very true too.

[ctrlraven]

You are either an idiot or a clown. You dyno'd at 440whp on a pump gas tune. . . that is 110MPH in the 1/4 maybe. You think that the race gas tune is only giving you 20whp? So in your world 20hp = 8MPH in the 1/4? That's why having any conversation with you is a joke, everything you say is garbage. It's more like 80whp to go from 110mph to 118mph. So it is a fine comparison in that it's stupid either way, whatever method he used to get to 11.4 on stock exhaust is what it is. Why is your run on a race gas tune, "proving how great shorties are" more valid than lido on spray with stock exhaust?
...That's right it's not, it shows how idiotic it is, because there are a lot of different ways to make power, and it has nothing to do with the shorties or long tubes or any of it because apparently you can go faster on stock exhaust, you just have to do different things. So why do anything to the exhaust at all? Just spray the car :lol:

(in case you miss it, that what rhetorical, and was in reference to shorties, not everyone wants to have to run a race gas tune just to run an 11. My car makes the same 11 second power everyday I drive it to work)
:beer::beer:

[Glenn]

You are either an idiot or a clown. You dyno'd at 440whp on a pump gas tune. . . that is 110MPH in the 1/4 maybe. You think that the race gas tune is only giving you 20whp? So in your world 20hp = 8MPH in the 1/4? That's why having any conversation with you is a joke, everything you say is garbage. It's more like 80whp to go from 110mph to 118mph. So it is a fine comparison in that it's stupid either way, whatever method he used to get to 11.4 on stock exhaust is what it is. Why is your run on a race gas tune, "proving how great shorties are" more valid than lido on spray with stock exhaust?
...That's right it's not, it shows how idiotic it is, because there are a lot of different ways to make power, and it has nothing to do with the shorties or long tubes or any of it because apparently you can go faster on stock exhaust, you just have to do different things. So why do anything to the exhaust at all? Just spray the car :lol:

(in case you miss it, that what rhetorical, and was in reference to shorties, not everyone wants to have to run a race gas tune just to run an 11. My car makes the same 11 second power everyday I drive it to work)


It's obvious you know little about drag racing, but very experienced in Keyboard Racing. HP isn't everything in drag racing - when you understand that fact you may run some decent times with your built 324 and SC.

Glenn Ford

[Paul T. Casey]

I seriously doubt it will EVER happen. If it happens AND it's on SHORTY headers I'll pay the $100.

I'll pay it for just doing it, period (according to the ultra restrictive rules).

[Paul T. Casey]

You are either an idiot or a clown.

Glenn is far from an idiot or clown. If you go back and re-look at his original postings re LT/shorties, his point was the small hp gains vis the long tubes didn't necessarily make financial sense. Take a trip to the SSHS, or one of the Atlanta area breakfast meets someday, sit down and talk with Glenn. I'm sure your opinion will change. In my personal case, the cool factor played into my decision for the LT's. The money end (at the time) was not an object.

[LANDY]

Glenn is far from an idiot or clown. If you go back and re-look at his original postings re LT/shorties, his point was the small hp gains vis the long tubes didn't necessarily make financial sense. Take a trip to the SSHS, or one of the Atlanta area breakfast meets someday, sit down and talk with Glenn. I'm sure your opinion will change. In my personal case, the cool factor played into my decision for the LT's. The money end (at the time) was not an object.
agreed! Glenn can be a little cocky when it come to drag racing sometimes, but he is ok in my book.
i just like to mess with the old man.:burnout:

[Joe Walsh]

Glenn is far from an idiot or clown. If you go back and re-look at his original postings re LT/shorties, his point was the small hp gains vs the long tubes didn't necessarily make financial sense. Take a trip to the SSHS, or one of the Atlanta area breakfast meets someday, sit down and talk with Glenn. I'm sure your opinion will change. In my personal case, the cool factor played into my decision for the LT's. The money end (at the time) was not an object.

That is how I always understood Glenn's argument...that $$ spent per HP gained: the shorties are a better value.
The LT's make more HP, but cost a bunch more than shorties.

I don't know why this argument has gone on for so long...:rolleyes:

[Paul T. Casey]

I don't know why this argument has gone on for so long...:rolleyes:

Poor reading skills, wanting to argue, not wanting to look dumb for spending on LT's are a few of the reasons I come up with.

[Joe Walsh]

Poor reading skills, wanting to argue, not wanting to look dumb for spending on LT's are a few of the reasons I come up with.

LOL....Let's call it "a propensity towards internet wrastlin'...."

[RR|Suki]

It's obvious you know little about drag racing, but very experienced in Keyboard Racing. HP isn't everything in drag racing - when you understand that fact you may run some decent times with your built 324 and SC.

Glenn Ford

My times are plenty good thanks. I run my own tune that I do without a dyno and my car is my daily driver. I haven't even launched my car hard at the track yet. Not even trying with a whole 9psi of boost and my own pump gas tune last year I ran the car down the track one time after the bar exam and did an 11.9 @ 117 with a terrible 1.8 60'.

PS I never said hp was everything in drag racing, what I said was that if you really did dyno 440 and your race gas tune did at 20 you couldn't do 118mph. Congrats on yet another fail statement whether on purpose or because you simply can't follow sentences

PPS what does my motor being a 324 have to do with anything? Wait that's right nothing, just more useless typing :lol:

[DOOM]

Was is the key word here. He gave up last year and spent his money on long tubes

Fixed it for ya. ;)

:rofl:

[Paul T. Casey]

Fixed it for ya. ;)

:rofl:

I'm sitting here eating blueberries (can't have cashews anymore). I now have little blue chunks all over my screen and keyboard.

[babbage]

That is how I always understood Glenn's argument...that $$ spent per HP gained: the shorties are a better value.
The LT's make more HP, but cost a bunch more than shorties.

I don't know why this argument has gone on for so long...:rolleyes:

Except he Glenn *still* fails to remember that he got a hell of a deal. This "deal" that he got is EASILY HALF of what a person would typically pay today. So his bang for the buck argument falls on it's face. Lets review:

The labor
The shorties
The custom down pipes mid pipe and fabrication (is it even stainless?)
Custom EGR has to be made and installed.
Motor has to be jacked and shimmed!

In reality if you quote the new SW long tubes that bolt up to the stock flanges, it's an easier less costly install - and now you don't need to shim the motor mount, worry about dip stick and make a custom EGR pipe, custom down pipes plus weld on pipe extensions, cut and modify the factory H pipe -- like you have to with shorties.

Summary: in reality shorties cost MORE than LT's for less power.

Glenns prices do not at all reflect reality. Used parts gotten from friends and a great deal on labor from his buddies shop is his basis for why shorties are more cost effective. YOU will not be able to get shorties done for what he paid.

So again I call :bs:

[musclemerc]

The custom downpipe is just a 99~04 Mustang H/X/or Prochamber and the back has to be extended 4". You can get them in SS and all of them are mandrel bent. These are good and plentiful on any Mustang forum from $75.00~$200.00. The custom EGR is just a little 3-3/4" piece of 5/8" SS tube with a male on one end and a female on the other. I make those for $35.00, the shim is just flat stock that measures 3-1/2" long and 3/8" thick you can use your imagination and get this for free. The dipstick only need a small 1/2" long X 1/4 thick" round spacer $1.39 @ Lowes

None of this is either hard or expensive. My system costs 420.00 complete and the cheapest install to date with shorty's is Swordfish. He got his JBA's for 50.00 used already had a Cobra downpipe from his own car and paid like 100.00 to have it all welded up $150.00 Total :eek: . He's doing an Eaton so the EGR did'nt apply. BrianH spent a little more than that, so the cost arguement is not a good one to make. Remember, I post shorty's all the time for $150.00~$250.00.

[ctrlraven]

Just like with any other air moving mod increasing it will add to the efficiency of other mods. Just as we all pretty much know that the intake spacer doesn't really do too much but people who have had it installed that already have a free flowing (shorties or LT) notice a very small gain.

High powered cars don't run shorties, they run LT. It's a simple fact.

Glenn I don't know what your hard on is with shorties and that you must press your opinion of them on everyone else but enough is enough. WE GOT IT!

If I came across a good deal on shorties I'd probably pick them up, mainly because they would be better than stock and anything is better at this point.

[dohc324ci]

I dunno guys I paid:

230 - frpp ceramic shorties new from latemodelrestoration.com last one in inventory
100 - Mach I catted mid pipe used 5k
100 - Magnaflow X pipe new (universal X not catted)
300 - install plus 2.5" piping to the tail pipes
220 - Corsa db blacks (used-new there x2)

950 for a full exhaust system installed. Deals are out there for which ever route you take.

But received quotes from. 500-600 for install and 600-700 for New JBA shorty headers.

[babbage]

The custom downpipe is just a 99~04 Mustang H/X/or Prochamber and the back has to be extended 4". You can get them in SS and all of them are mandrel bent. The custom EGR is just a little 3-3/4" piece of 5/8" SS tube with a male on one end and a female on the other. I make those for $35.00, the shim is just flat stock that measures 3-1/2" long and 3/8" thick you can use your imagination and get this for free. The dipstick only need a small 1/2"X 1/4" round spacer $1.39 @ Lowes

None of this is either hard or expensive. My system costs 420.00 complete and the cheapest install to date with shorty's is Swordfish. He got his JBA's for 50.00 used already had a Cobra downpipe from his own car and paid like 100.00 to have it all welded up $150.00 Total :eek: . He's doing an Eaton so the EGR did'nt apply. BrianH spent a little more than that, so the cost arguement is not a good one to make. Remember, I post shorty's all the time for $150.00~$250.00.

Yeah but price it with all of the required items brand new. I might be able to get some used SW headers for $500

Apples to Oranges Travis. You compare used parts +no labor plus with parts someone already owned with brand new LT's? That's broken logic.

[musclemerc]

OK I will use your logic.
Bcastro-Brand new FRPP's $230.00 Shipped
BrianH-Brand new JBA's $210.00 Shipped /IIRC new Mustang Xpipe $200.00 shipped (He welded his own)
Myself-New JBA's $175.00/ new Prochamber $150.00 shipped/ new high flow cat's $90.00 shipped
Skyhigh New FRPP's $300.00 shipped

If you can turn a wrench you can do the install yourself. All you have to do is drive to a muffler shop to weld in the extensions and hook into the muffler's. This was $100.00 for me and mostly everyone else that did their own install. The deals are out there you just gotta hunt for them.

[babbage]

Post a link where I can get those prices? I ain't seeing it.

You added cats to yours, so you have to cut and weld them into the prochamber downpipe plus the Prochamber isn't stainless. The welds probably aren't going to be stainless either. Then you have to cut the prochamers again and then cut the factory H and weld that too. The exit angle of the Prochamer down pipe doesn't look to line up anywhere near the factory H.

This is probably closer to reality.

Magnaflow catted Mustang X pipe - $500
http://dagostinoracing.com/index.php?main_page=product_in fo&cPath=2678_123_1535_1542_5997_ 5998_8818&products_id=16474

JBA Shorties (ceramic coated) $659
http://dagostinoracing.com/index.php?main_page=product_in fo&cPath=2678_123_1535_1538_1541_ 5782&products_id=9727

And then you still have to hack the rest.

Sure you are crafty and can find deals - and install yourself. Most MM owners wouldn't do their own exhaust work - Glen sure as heck didn't... Motor mount shims and EGR etc.. Not for me.

edit: also if it's all welded if you have to remove the tranny how do you do this?

[musclemerc]

OK Babb's... I will addresse all the point's you raised.

I always try to think things through. So here's what I did. I hunted for an uncatted Prochamber so I did'nt have to add 4" to the back of the midpipe to clear the trans crossmember. I put the high flow's in to get the extra 4" out of the system (I wanted the least amount's of weld's as possible).So that fixed the 4" extension issue.

My Prochamber is modular (ball and flange) and came in 5 piece's, so getting the trans out is'nt an issue. Even if it was'nt a modular system you can still get the trans out (unbolt the header flange, then unbolt the back half).

The muffler extensions connect to the end of the Prochamber and is still ball and flange. The last flange is welded back to the stock muffler's. This was a short piece of 2-1/4" pipe maybe 12" long. This is what the muffler shop is for, to get from the last flange to the muffler's

I said earlier the stock H pipe has to be removed with a shorty install. There is no way around it. So we have a full 2.5" mid section without the 2" restriction from that little H pipe. The angle's are fine, your using Cobra header's not the stocker's and their is alot more room on a MM than a Mustang. Besides it would be silly to run both an X and the stock H

Stainless is'nt the only answer to a rust free exhaust. (although all the northerner's can attest that SS will rust) you can have the entire system powder coated and since my system is modular and can be broken down in small pieces, my plan is to Powder Coat the entire setup (I have a DIY PC kit). There is'nt one piece of my system that has been hacked. I don't put junk on my MM. Beside's you should know me better than that. If it's not right I won't waist my time doing it.

BTW I love your new Signature.

[babbage]

Well it sounds better the way you explained it, but LT's are still better. ;)


Love the new catch can, put it on and drove 825 miles over the past weekend. No issues - car is running great. I need to take a peek and see how much oil is in it -- it has some in it because the level tube is stained golden brown.

[musclemerc]

Yeah, that's from the oil vapors, probably too early for service. Pull the top hose from the upper intake and stick your finger in it. I bet it will come out dry.... Do a few back to back Seafoam's to get the intake track cleaned out and then your good to go.

[LeoVampire]

Yeah, that's from the oil vapors, probably too early for service. Pull the top hose from the upper intake and stick your finger in it. I bet it will come out dry.


God I have to get one of those soon! I end up running sea foam a couple times a year to cut down on the build up in the plenum and runner.

Ever since I changed the PCV I should have left the original one alone and on the motor. Live and learn.

@ the end of the year I take the plenum off and clean it and the throttle body since I had it appart originaly and saw first hand the BS oil build up.

[Spectragod]

Got my LT's on the group buy, not cheap by any means, I don't have dyno results before/after, I bought them because they were easily available and required no extra welding on the exhaust. They work, they don't leak, I don't have to jack with welds that are failing, etc..

Money wasn't a real issue, but if it were, I would have looked into all possibilities and most likely would have went with the shorties. Performance is close, and money is way cheaper. I think it just boils down to what the owner wants, plain and simple.

If you have the cash, and it doesn't put you in a hardship, buy the LT's. Otherwise, start shopping. It is like anything else though, if you don't get in a hurry,and can wait, the right deal(s) will come along, and then you can do it on a budget.

Just my .02.

[ImpalaSlayer]

You are either an idiot or a clown. You dyno'd at 440whp on a pump gas tune. . . that is 110MPH in the 1/4 maybe. You think that the race gas tune is only giving you 20whp? So in your world 20hp = 8MPH in the 1/4? That's why having any conversation with you is a joke, everything you say is garbage. It's more like 80whp to go from 110mph to 118mph. So it is a fine comparison in that it's stupid either way, whatever method he used to get to 11.4 on stock exhaust is what it is. Why is your run on a race gas tune, "proving how great shorties are" more valid than lido on spray with stock exhaust?
...That's right it's not, it shows how idiotic it is, because there are a lot of different ways to make power, and it has nothing to do with the shorties or long tubes or any of it because apparently you can go faster on stock exhaust, you just have to do different things. So why do anything to the exhaust at all? Just spray the car :lol:

(in case you miss it, that what rhetorical, and was in reference to shorties, not everyone wants to have to run a race gas tune just to run an 11. My car makes the same 11 second power everyday I drive it to work)


It's obvious you know little about drag racing, but very experienced in Keyboard Racing. HP isn't everything in drag racing - when you understand that fact you may run some decent times with your built 324 and SC.

Glenn Ford


My times are plenty good thanks. I run my own tune that I do without a dyno and my car is my daily driver. I haven't even launched my car hard at the track yet. Not even trying with a whole 9psi of boost and my own pump gas tune last year I ran the car down the track one time after the bar exam and did an 11.9 @ 117 with a terrible 1.8 60'.

PS I never said hp was everything in drag racing, what I said was that if you really did dyno 440 and your race gas tune did at 20 you couldn't do 118mph. Congrats on yet another fail statement whether on purpose or because you simply can't follow sentences

PPS what does my motor being a 324 have to do with anything? Wait that's right nothing, just more useless typing :lol:

lmao this was great, i duno how i missed this thread

[dohc324ci]

^^ Childs play....lol You know I am conditioned now that I have been on s197forum.com YIKES!!!

[musclemerc]

Their is somone I forgot to mention throughout this debate. There is a member that will be a true Unicorn when it come's to MM exhaust setup's. He gonna have a 1 off exhaust that none of us have attempted to pull off (shorty or LT). Speed.... He has a set of JBA ceramic coated mid-length header's, a 3" H-pipe, 3" high flow cat's, 3" muffler's, and 3" pipe out to the tips. He's SC'ed so when he's done it will be something to see. That bad boy will be moving some serious air.

[DOOM]

probably too early for service. stick your finger in it. I bet it will come out dry....

THATS WHAT SHE SAID!!! :rofl:

[Vortech347]

I seriously take like a 3 month break from here and you guys are still bitching about this?

Doesn't anyone man up and go race about it instead of ***** on the internet?

***** is starred out!? Lame.

[FordNut]

I seriously take like a 3 month break from here and you guys are still bitching about this?

Doesn't anyone man up and go race about it instead of ***** on the internet?

***** is starred out!? Lame.

3 months? :lol: This debate has been going on for 7 years :argue:

[ctrlraven]

I seriously take like a 3 month break from here and you guys are still bitching about this?

Doesn't anyone man up and go race about it instead of ***** on the internet?

***** is starred out!? Lame.
http://pgstudios.org/misc/internet_serious_business2.jpg
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4622/ia3yp.jpg

[Vortech347]

I would of thought some company would end this debate with mid length headers and charge 3k for the pair.

[Joe Walsh]

I would of thought some company would end this debate with mid length headers and charge 3k for the pair.

Nope...they'd have to be mid-length and mid-priced.

That would further add to this stupid argument.

Buy and bolt on whatever you want guys....:rolleyes:

[musclemerc]

Their not MM specific but, JBA does and so does Bassani


Their is somone I forgot to mention throughout this debate. There is a member that will be a true Unicorn when it come's to MM exhaust setup's. He gonna have a 1 off exhaust that none of us have attempted to pull off (shorty or LT). Speed.... He has a set of JBA ceramic coated mid-length header's, a 3" H-pipe, 3" high flow cat's, 3" muffler's, and 3" pipe out to the tips. He's SC'ed so when he's done it will be something to see. That bad boy will be moving some serious air.

[FordNut]

I would of thought some company would end this debate with mid length headers and charge 3k for the pair.

I think in the early days of header talks we considered the Kooks to be mid-length and the StainlessWorks to be long tube.

[Joe Walsh]

I think in the early days of header talks we considered the Kooks to be mid-length and the StainlessWorks to be long tube.

Mid-Length Kook's FTW!!!!..........:banana2:

[Glenn]

Just to set the record straight - I did not start this thread on shorties vs Ltubers. I just had a final comment on the previous thread that was shut-down - see post #1. I have NO interest in furthering the discussion of this subject. I only had a final comment to make, but the previous thread was shut-down.

So, since I did started this concluding thread to give a final answer to the previous original thread, I ask the moderators to shut this thread down.

Thank you,

Glenn Ford :)

[LANDY]

In before the lock. Lt's ftw

[ctrlraven]

Hey, I'm not done yet.

is ok Glenn we will have some fun at sshs10 this fall. then LT's vs shorty's its on for sure.:flamer:

I admire your competitiveness, but in all honestly for you to cut 1/2 second off your et without MAJOR work and money is just not gonna happen - period!

Glenn Ford :flamer:
You started a thread just to type that? :lol:

[babbage]

You started a thread just to type that? :lol:

Par for the course.

[CBT]

Read an interesting article in the latest MM&FF, basically it said the stock manifolds on 4.6 and 5.4's worked great so why use shorty headers. Just sayin'. Next month, who knows, a writer may say why run long tubes.

[musclemerc]

^^ To be honest any header combination is better than the stock MM setup.
If budget is an issue delete the rear cats and do a 2.5" midppipe swap. It's much cheaper and will still yeild some HP/TQ gains

[Blackened300a]

The only test that has been done in a really controlled fashion is the NA race to the 12's. Otherwise there are just too many variables.

The rules were: any bolt-ons, stock long block specs, no aftermarket cams, no head porting. Bolt-ons include gears, ported intake, any exhaust mods desired, pulleys, water pump, MAF, throttle body, CAI, etc...

The closest to making the 12's NA have had Long Tube Headers. Has anybody with Shorty Headers, Stock manifolds, or Cobra manifolds even broken the 13.5 barrier?

Don't forget any kind of tuning, gas, tire size as long as they are street legal. I went 13.6 on 93 octane and basically stock exhaust. All I have are mufflers and tips. Now I have the intake and my compression set back to what it was when the engine was new.


Brian, I don't think it can be done with the original rules in play. I've been thinking about the race to the 12's and here's what I came up with. It would probably take: pully's, either electric or EMP WP, 62mm Tbody, PSRI, 96~98 Cobra cams, CNC ported head's, CAI, 3000stall, 4:10'so, dyno tune,and yes Shorty header's (I think they will be needed to make up for the torque lost from the PRSI).
Basically everything but the kitchen sink.
I don't think you need the cams and heads to pull this off. A strong race gas dyno tune with the bolt-ons will seal the deal.


BTW, I believe it was the NA 12's contestants that kept saying "wait until fall", now it's the following summer and we're still waiting.

I wasnt expecting a engine loss to come up this year. It put my header full exhaust and dyno tuning plans on hold.


Running a 100+ HP shot of GAS is NO comparision to a race gas tune that gives you 20+ HP. Let's be fair in our comparisions.

Glenn Ford :argue:
Agreed that NOS is totally different then race gas, but I don't agree with the 20+ hp gain. Maybe 10-15 tops.


rofl! Funny Brian! :D:D But at the same time very true too.
Give us time!


agreed! Glenn can be a little cocky when it come to drag racing sometimes, but he is ok in my book.
i just like to mess with the old man.:burnout:

I hear this a lot from people who met Glenn in person. I won't pass judgemnt on a guy who I never met. I just enjoy the back and forth.


THATS WHAT SHE SAID!!! :rofl:

Jake really? This was funny for like 5 minutes but you still see comic genius in this?


Just to set the record straight - I did not start this thread on shorties vs Ltubers. I just had a final comment on the previous thread that was shut-down - see post #1. I have NO interest in furthering the discussion of this subject. I only had a final comment to make, but the previous thread was shut-down.

So, since I did started this concluding thread to give a final answer to the previous original thread, I ask the moderators to shut this thread down.

Thank you,

Glenn Ford :)

We were civil in the thread, I don't agree with shutting it down. Not until we have solid dyno numbers to back all this up.

[musclemerc]

^^ Glad to see you back Blackened. BTW guy's look at the last few post on the debate I started. I said I would have the thread locked so it did'nt get derailed. The proof is posted with the dyno results. Make your own decision, just keep modding your MM's.