Engine update on Trilogy blower car

[Lidio]

Just wanted to pass along some info.

Jerry dropped off the Trilogy number 1 car at our facilities last week to give us an opportunity to check out how every thing is going with it.
He wanted us to throw in 8 fresh spark plugs, and while I was there I decided to compression test all 8 cylinders just to see if it’s where they belong.

Now remember Trilogy number one has seen 9.5psi of boost for about 22K miles since this past February of ’03… and then seen about 12psi for the last 4K or so miles since this past September just before we DROVE it to and from TX for the MM round-up. Plus many know that Jerry’s number 1 car as been beaten more then a “red headed step child”. Just ask any body in the Detroit area near is offices. And the people who went for test drives in TX three at a time! To this day we wont comment on number Trilogy #1’s fuel economy in city driving… Its just at WOT to often to check it fairly!

I’ve lost track of how many drag strip passes it’s seen just this past season…. Some where in the 200ish range and tons of Chassis dyno pulls too.

Anyway the compression on all eight cylinders was anywhere from 200 to 210 (just like stock basically) after five pumps and all 8 plugs removed plus the throttle body wired open during the test. This was with the engine cold too, after sitting in my shop all weekend. This is quite a testament to the safe and proper tune we applied to this application. The rear axle seems to be perfect with no mods done at all other then the 4.10’s it got in September.
The posi and all internal axle bearing seem to be fine as well.

The Trans too….. shifting as good and the same today as it did from the beginning of all of this Trilogy blower madness. As I’ve stated months ago the 1-2 shift isn’t as positive and firm as I would like. 3d is perfect at WOT from just chip calibration work. We dropped the pan and only modified the 1-2 accumulator which normally tries to dampen the shift. This mod helped but still wasn’t enough. Although we let it go all year with not one problem to date.

I have to admit... sometimes I do feel sorry for this car and just how much it is trully abused when Jerry isnt around!

Just thought I’d pass along a little update!!



Thanks

[merc406]

That is good news Lidio, put's to rest any doubts about long term use of a supercharger on top of this engine.

[Lidio]

Merc

Not to dis all others tuners but there are many, many tuners out there that would have wrecked a piston or two in a set up like Jerry's number 1 in a very short period of time and simply said:

"Hey that’s what you get when you add this much power to a stock motor, Now sign here for your new $4000.00 forged internal short block"!

Lots and lots of people over the last few years have been needlessly ripped into buying a good short block when they could have gotten so much more out of the stock motor with lots of power added to it. Killer short blocks are great and eventually needed for some, but not after having a blower on a stock motor with less then 10psi of boost for only a week or two. There are dyno tuners in this country that will wreck a 4.6L motor with a blower before the car ever makes it off their dyno!! This is absolutely not a lie or exaggeration.

No one has proved in the Mustang circle and now the Marauder more then our shop that a stock 4.6L from the ’96 and newer Cobra, GT and now the MM internals can take more then most would even begin to think about. It’s all in the tune and being careful with it, and the available octane for the application. Can we say exactly how long 10psi of boost will live on a stock MM engine??….. no, but with a proper tune I will say that it will go a looooong time.

We have 4.6L GT’s and Cobra’s that have 16 to 23psi of boost and run leaded race gas like “Turbo-blue” full time which is 110 octane…. These guys have seen 475 to 550+RWHP for long terms and not yet broke stock cast pistons. Just don’t “ping” it and it will live!!!
Even the connecting rods and especially the Aluminum Cobra and MM block. This is what I do every day. Only Ford’s. It’s not a side line hobby. We add blowers and tune a lot of Ford’s all year for over 13 years now.


Thanks

[bigslim]

That is great news Lidio. you guys have a winning product and you are the master of installation.

[Bob Mathis]

I want to say that I have had my S/C kit on now for about 6,000 miles and two trips to the strip and have had no problem's. I still have Lidio's tune. Thanks Lidio and Jerry.

[Jerry Barnes]

I agree with Lidio and the way he tunes our kit. 90% of our customers ask the following :

How long will my existing drive train last with your supercharger?

Will I void my warranty?

Can I get good performance with your S/C and still have a good daily driver?

What will the S/C do to my mileage?

The other 10% want to test the limits of the car and the drivetrain, which is O.K with us. We are lucky at Trilogy, because we have both. A racing MM and a super fast daily driver MM. Life is good for us!!! But, most customers are not like Trilogy or Bob and Jean Mathis with two MM's. So, we have to develop a kit that meets the needs of 90% of the daily driver customers, while giving the 10% drag racers the ability to improve on our kit to go faster.

Don't forget, we just started selling the S/C kit! It's only been available for 2 weeks in production. The last thing we want is to take people so far out on the edge of reliability it fails frequently as a daily driver. That would kill our reputation and I cannot support that. Don't forget, we are giving people 150 hp and torque improvement!!! And our #1 car is still solid and we beat the piss out of it!!!! That's what we wanted and its proved successful so far.

Do we want a S/C system that can be more powerful then the stock S/C kit, Yes! But, only if the customer wants to climb out on that limb at the track and know how to properly manage being on the edge.

I agree with BigSlim, I don't want to be replacing my pistons every week and since I am not as good at properly managing performance tuning like Lidio and many others, the stock kit is awesome.

Remember Marauderers or Dave Popovich's comments when they completed installing our kit? And despite the rush they got from their kits, they wanted a little more!!

Definition of a Speed Junky!

Remember we will always debate the highest hp/torque numbers from the dyno vs. reliability/mpg/driveability. It a balancing act based on what the customer wants.

Enjoy both!!!

[Petrograde]

.............. wow...............

[Zack]

Ive seen strong mention now in many recent posts about your tuning and how safe and reliable it is. This you have proven.
How do you account for Marauderers dyno tune from Jerry W. this past week that netted him 434 rwhp and 390 rwtq? With nothing different from other Trilogy installs?
Jerry has tuned thousands of cars safely and would NOT let a car leave the shop if he felt the tune would be a detriment to the engine. Im just curious and by the way, keep up the good work.
Zack

[merc406]

Cool on both counts ^^

[Jerry Barnes]

Zack,

I don't know Jerry W., but he does have a good reputation. But, there are a lot of people that are out there that I do not know and could not say they are knowledgeable tuners.

So, no offense was intended, but my responsibility is to give people a reliable, fast product. I think and hope we have achieved that. And we have given people the platform to go faster, if they want!

But, I have worked with Lidio for a loooooong time and I am confident in his abilities. We are also working with other tuners that are also very competent like Rick at Amazon Racing, Razors Edge, Virgil Woodward, Hansen L/M, etc. But, they call and discuss their ability, show us their results and offer suggestions that build upon a mutual business relationship. I have not had that opportunity with Jerry W.

I was going to meet with Jerry W. almost a year ago and he unfortunately could not meet with me. So, I know very little about Jerry W. Jerry W. may have a great calibration, I am not disputing that.

I personally know that I can get even more HP and Torque from the MM, but could you afford it?

Ours is all about balance.

Thanks for you input.

[Zack]

Thank you.

[Lidio]

Let’s not turn this into a messed up compition between tuners.
The Trilogy tune we’ve developed is many months old and proven to be very safe so far. There’s lots left in a Trilogy set up both in pulley changes and in the tune, plus other areas as well. The answer is we need to be truly conservative and prove it… not just say its safe… turn them loose out there and keep an eye them for a while once we’ve done the best we can on our end.
Plus different dyno’s, different day etc can account for some of differences right off the bat, not a ton but some.

I remember when we were in TX we were not afraid to pound both Trilogy cars repeatedly at the track and countless test drives all three days with four in the car at a time… with only one trailer to get us home in the event of a failure (which didn’t happen). I don’t remember the other supercharged vehicles doing that with the frequency we did.
I know we have a product to sell and promote. The point I’m making as usual is our confidence in the tune we’ve provided for the Trilogy set up.


Thanks

[studio460]

Lidio:

I really enjoy reading your Trilogy posts--glad to see you posting more here. It's really great to read those positive updates on the Trilogy #1 car! I still need to wait for Trilogy to get CARB certified before I can order the kit (Jerry--any timetable on that yet?). CAN'T WAIT TO GET MINE!

[Lidio]

NBC

It’s winter here now and things calm down a little at my shop and activities out side of my shop as well. It’s no fun this time of the year with the time change and the weather. It’s dark by 4:45pm! And under 45degrees most of the time (great for racing)… for the most part the next three or four months. So I tend to stay a lot more active with forums like this during our winter months.

I don’t know the requirements of making a product like Trilogy’s kit 50 state legal as far as the paper work and what ever. But I can tell you that it should be fine from what I can see. The kit does not tamper with emissions in any way. We recommend leaving the factory cats alone, The EGR is left in tact and the calibration I did keeps it clean and in closed loop all the time except for when you go into WOT. And even at WOT or near WOT, I’ve gone out of may way to make the Air/Fuel ratio as lean as I can get away with from off idle to about 3500rpm… Then it starts to get substantially richer till 6000+rpm’s.

I have full confidence that the Trilogy blower kit will have no problem becoming 50 state legal. Couldn’t Jerry sell the kit with the CARB certification pending?? I thought I seen that before from some other company I’ve delt with. Not sure, can’t remember. Since my self and my shop don’t really produce anything that would require a CARB number, I’m not up to speed on those facts…Sorry.

Rest assured... Jerry will make it happen and it will be worth the wait!!


Thanks

[Ross]

and my eyes glaze over when I remember driving the Trilogy car at Ennis...sigh....

[studio460]

Lidio:

Thanks for your detailed reply, and again, it's great to see you posting more here! Actually, I didn't mean to burden you with answering the question about Trilogy's CARB certification--the question was directed more as an aside to Jerry Barnes, based on our recent discussion on the subject at SEMA.

I do however have a question specifically for you, if you have a moment . . .

Due to your posts, and the history of the Trilogy #1 car, I am extremely confident in the tuning profile you've developed for the Trilogy-Marauder product. However, all you lucky people outside of California have the benefit of 93- to 94-octane premium fuel. Us poor Californians are stuck with our anemic 91-octane "premium" gas.

I bring this up because after a recent dynotune on my N/A, basically stock, '03 Marauder, I immediately noticed a significant increase in power. However, with that new-found power also came some low-RPM detonation issues. By the time we detuned the timing to eliminate the knocking, the power had significantly decreased. Do you have, or are you working on a tuning profile for 91-octane fuel? I thought that there was at least one California-based Trilogy customer in the queue or already installed. Detonation will certainly be one of my greatest fears when I get my Trilogy blower installed, and with only the low octane pump gas available to us, the line between performance and driveability gets pretty thin. I hope that I can depend on the tuning expertise of someone like you, who has worked with these products so closely. I would love to be able to drive my Trilogy-blown Marauder with the confidence that I have a "safe" tuning profile developed by an expert. Thanks for your comments!

[Ross]

NBC Shooter, now that you have Arnold as governor, tell him to change the rules and get y'all some decent gas out there!

[Lidio]

NBC

The initial tune provided with the Trilogy set up was not tested with less then the 92 octane available locally in the Detroit area. It is extremely reliable on only 92 octane and seemed to not det under any type of driving conditions what so ever for us.

I think, but can’t promise that it will probably be OK with even 91 octane because of my extreme conservativeness when tuning true daily drivers that are supercharges. People need to remember that we’re dealing with some simple physics here. The MM motor has almost 10:1 compression. That gets to be very rady when hit with boost and the wrong level of octane and an aggressive tune!

I hope to have a Trilogy blower on my own personal MM by late January. I was intending on shortly after installing it going right to a much smaller blower pulley aiming for 13-15 psi… or even a bigger crank pulley to get there (13-15psi) if needed and running only 93 octane full time.
But if I can bring my self to be a little more patient and if you havnet gotten a kit by then… I will use my car as more of a test bed to see if I can get by on as little as 89 octane with the stock 9.5 psi of boost. I think it’s doable of course at the sacrifice of some power.

I don’t know about the west coast but here in MI we get during the winter time what’s called “Winter Blend Fuels”. This stuff is garbage. I don’t know all the tech stuff about it but I’ve proved its total SH*$$TT. It’s taught me some good discipline on how to be safe with blower tunes. Even though the pump still says it’s for instance 93 octane… it really seems to not be. Winter blend is designed to start more easily during the extreme cold we get at this time of the year. What I’ve seen and proved is to get the fuel to light (burn) easier in the cold, it sacrifices true octane.
We’ve had cars with perfect tunes for all of a summer and then in the late fall or winter it comes back with pinging going on. We end up pulling timing and it’s gone. Or for a test we blend in some race gas and the ping just goes away. For our locals that have edgy cars with aggressive tunes and big boost…. We try to get them back regualry to recheck the tunes and for pinging if it’s an unleaded application.

Thanks

[merc406]

Anyone thinking of nitrous along with thier S/C's out their? It would cool cyl. temps and wouldn't need that big of a shot to do it.

[Warpath]

Originally posted by Lidio
...There are dyno tuners in this country that will wreck a 4.6L motor with a blower before the car ever makes it off their dyno!! This is absolutely not a lie or exaggeration...

I can attest to that, unfortunately. Good work, Lidio, again!

I can't wait until spring so I can drive my Cobra again.