Procharger and Paxton questions

[cougar9150]

Well since I am selling my Eaton due to other necessities I have been looking at the various centrifugal setups. I see I can pick up the mounting bracket kits fairly cheap, get the head unit, other supporting equipment, and would need to fabricate my own pipes. Preliminary estimates put me below $4k in my out of pocket costs.

I am in the process of pricing out the various options but know I would like to go with either a Paxton Novi 2000/2200 SL or Procharger P-1SC/D-1SC.

I have a couple questions in regard to each version and was wondering if some of you guys with Centrifgual kits could provide a few answers.

For the Paxton Novi 2000 will this bolt to the Vortech bracket? I found the complete mounting bracket kit for a 2003-2004 mach 1 for about $240 dollars. This includes this idler pulley, alternator spacers, etc... everything to mount a head unit just add the peripherals.

I recall guys running the Novi 1200 and 1500 but can't remember if anyone has used the 2000 or 2200 SL w/the Vortech bracket. I would like to possibly go with the Novi 2200 SL if it would fit just don't want to find out it doesn't when I go to bolt it up.

For the Procharger I could use the bracket kit for the 2003-2004 Mach 1 but I wanted some input from the F.I.T. kit owners on any suggestions or improvement they made to the original kit. It looks as though it would be fairly easy to put together a new version of the Procharger kit. Just would like a little insight.advice from anyone that does or has owned the F.I.T. kit.

Centrifugal SC just makes more sense with my current setup on the MM, along my planned N/A mods the car will just be waiting for a centrifugal to go on. No replacing gears, and torque converter like I would probably need to do with the Eaton swap.

[Zack]

You would need to change the gears and torque converter for the CENTRIFUGAL.

Paxtons will not bolt to a Vortech bracket.

[cougar9150]

You would need to change the gears and torque converter for the CENTRIFUGAL.

Paxtons will not bolt to a Vortech bracket.
Why? Most guys I see with the centrifugal have lower gears and a higher stall TC.

Thanks for the paxton info, procharger it is.

[RR|Suki]

I'd say call Paxton, their customer service guys are pretty nice. I would tend to agree with Zack though and say that even though they are both Vortech companies, the 2000 prob won't bolt to a vortech bracket.
The 2000 may not be the best blower on a budget though, it's a big blower and makes big power, so even used people are usually asking quite a bit for em.

Also the intake pipe for the 2000 will be touching the radiator due to the size of the case, so just trimming the radiator shroud or using a mustang shroud is not gonna fly.

If you do decide you want the 2000 you'll want the brackets for the 99-01 Cobra I believe it was, they have the same tensioner setup as us, and so there is an inner bracket that we would need that the older cobras with the 3 bolt tensioner (96-98?) won't have.

[cougar9150]

I have no particular preference, just want a self lubricated system. I have always wanted a novi but overall costs and parts availability will come into play on the final decision.

The prochargers are good units, a bit cheaper with more, and brackets are more readily available so I think that will be the easiest, most cost effective path.

Most of the bracket kits for the 2001 cobra seem to be the same as the Mach 1. I did notice that the alternator spacer were slightly different but not by much.

[RR|Suki]

I have no particular preference, just want a self lubricated system. I have always wanted a novi but overall costs and parts availability will come into play on the final decision.

The prochargers are good units, a bit cheaper with more, and brackets are more readily available so I think that will be the easiest, most cost effective path.

Most of the bracket kits for the 2001 cobra seem to be the same as the Mach 1. I did notice that the alternator spacer were slightly different but not by much.

2000 isn't self oiled, just a heads up

[cougar9150]

I was thinking the SL version Paxton units, but see they don't offer the 2000.

Definitely pushing me more to the ProCharger since I know the 2200 won't fit if the 200 doesn't

[sailsmen]

"A standard production P-1SC supercharger, manufactured by Accessible Technologies, Inc., was commercially procured and tested on the gas compressor test stand, in accordance with the SAE J-1723 standard. Pressure rise, flow, and compressor efficiency were tested, and a compressor map was developed and presented. Mechanical efficiency was also evaluated. Performance comparisons to a competing supercharger product (S-Trim, manufactured by Vortech Engineering, Inc.) were presented. Overall, the P-1SC ranks among the poorest performing compressors ever tested at this facility; it achieved a best efficiency island of 59%. Operating range (pressure rise and flow) within 55% or better efficiency is far below the manufacturer’s listed specifications. Through post-test analysis, the data indicate that a P-1SC requires approximately 33% more shaft power to develop an incremental pound (psia) of boost, at the same flowrate, than the S-Trim compressor (power coefficient – total dynamic head). Approximately 53% more power is required to deliver an incremental pound-per-cubic foot of density rise, at the same flowrate (power coefficient – density rise)."

[RR|Suki]

I was thinking the SL version Paxton units, but see they don't offer the 2000.

Definitely pushing me more to the ProCharger since I know the 2200 won't fit if the 200 doesn't

You have it a bit wrong, the 2000 and 2200 are not even from the same line of blowers. The 2200 and the 1500 are more like the vortech cases, where the 1000 and the 2000 are pretty different. If you look at pics you'll see they are pretty different.

So really the case on the 2200 is not as big as the case on the 2000

2200
http://www.steeda.com/images/paxton_2200_650.jpg

2000
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss143/VTRauder/cobra_underhood.jpg?t=12811213 37

[cougar9150]

You have it a bit wrong, the 2000 and 2200 are not even from the same line of blowers. The 2200 and the 1500 are more like the vortech cases, where the 1000 and the 2000 are pretty different. If you look at pics you'll see they are pretty different.

So really the case on the 2200 is not as big as the case on the 2000


I see, I was just going off the 2 sections on the Paxton website that break down the SC lines

http://www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=157

This one shows the 1200, 1220, 1500, and 2000 units. But doesn't give any specifics on case design

http://www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=158

The SL line shows the 1200, 1220, 1500, and 2200 units. Per their catalog it says that you can install the 2200 on any 1200, 1220, or 1500 bracketry.

Unfortunately neither really gives the technical specifications on the case dimensions. I'm still in the early stages of research and don't really know my ass from my elbow with centrifugal SCs.

At least with the Procharger I know it will fit the brackets 100%, just need to make the pipes.

I'm sure I'll be picking your brain more and more as this progresses. Still have plenty of reading and research to do before I start spending money.

[cougar9150]

"A standard production P-1SC supercharger, manufactured by Accessible Technologies, Inc., was commercially procured and tested on the gas compressor test stand, in accordance with the SAE J-1723 standard. Pressure rise, flow, and compressor efficiency were tested, and a compressor map was developed and presented. Mechanical efficiency was also evaluated. Performance comparisons to a competing supercharger product (S-Trim, manufactured by Vortech Engineering, Inc.) were presented. Overall, the P-1SC ranks among the poorest performing compressors ever tested at this facility; it achieved a best efficiency island of 59%. Operating range (pressure rise and flow) within 55% or better efficiency is far below the manufacturer’s listed specifications. Through post-test analysis, the data indicate that a P-1SC requires approximately 33% more shaft power to develop an incremental pound (psia) of boost, at the same flowrate, than the S-Trim compressor (power coefficient – total dynamic head). Approximately 53% more power is required to deliver an incremental pound-per-cubic foot of density rise, at the same flowrate (power coefficient – density rise)."



Engine intake charge air temperature is the most relevant thermal measure (not SAE J1723) for supercharger installed on a vehicle, especially when intercooled; SAE J1723 does not address the impact of engine dynamics, engine compartment heat transfer, intercooling, or deficiencies caused by supercharger location.

Also if it was so crappy it would not be the best selling unit on the market. An arguement can be made anyway. Prochargers are quality units and have had more cars in the top of the NMRA standings the last 3 years than any other manufacturers.

[RR|Suki]

Yeah that chart seems to just be self lubricated models, and engine oil fed models

[sailsmen]

Engine intake charge air temperature is the most relevant thermal measure (not SAE J1723) for supercharger installed on a vehicle, especially when intercooled; SAE J1723 does not address the impact of engine dynamics, engine compartment heat transfer, intercooling, or deficiencies caused by supercharger location.

Also if it was so crappy it would not be the best selling unit on the market. An arguement can be made anyway. Prochargers are quality units and have had more cars in the top of the NMRA standings the last 3 years than any other manufacturers.

Lots of things that are not very good sell well, popularity does not mean quality. Just look at how many people vote for the same crappy politicians year after year.;) The less efficient an S/C is generally the more heat it will generate. Pro Charger is known for very efficient intercoolers.

The main problem I see with Pro Charger vs Vortec is the straight cut impeller vs curved and the way the drive gears are cut. That does not mean Pro Charger is not good or that Vortec is better.

A product that has a design flaw in one area can make it up in another and a product that has a superior design in one area can loose it in another.

IF you are partial to Pro Charger why are you asking the questions?

[ImpalaSlayer]

let me see if i got this right, selling the eaton due to money issues? yet you wana spend 1000 dollars more for a centri set up? i not sure i understand

[Marauderjack]

Lots of things that are not very good sell well, popularity does not mean quality. Just look at how many people vote for the same crappy politicians year after year.;) The less efficient an S/C is generally the more heat it will generate. Pro Charger is known for very efficient intercoolers.

The main problem I see with Pro Charger vs Vortec is the straight cut impeller vs curved and the way the drive gears are cut. That does not mean Pro Charger is not good or that Vortec is better.

A product that has a design flaw in one area can make it up in another and a product that has a superior design in one area can loose it in another.

IF you are partial to Pro Charger why are you asking the questions?

Billy,

I have over 133K miles on my P-1SC and it works perfectly fine....makes 9.5 to 10 PSI with a 3.7 pulley and as far as I can tell doesn't generate enough heat to worry about!!!:shake:

I don't know about Paxtons or Vortex's but my ProCharger is just fine for me.......I don't give a "Tinker's Damn" about that last .001 second in drag racing!!:rolleyes:

Also, the guys at ProCharger have been nothing but GREAT anytime I've needed anything so I'd do it again if ever the opportunity presented itself!!!:beer::bows:

My $.02...FWIW!!:cool:

[ntd]

I have a Paxton 1500sl in a Vortech Mach 1 mounting bracket. You would be surprised how much it cost to have custom mandrel pipes made $$$. You could all ways use all silicone piping http://www.siliconeintakes.com/stpg.php?page_id=silicone_bene fits&osCsid=aa125bfae949098b6e833d0 d3010c61f (http://www.siliconeintakes.com/stpg.php?page_id=silicone_bene fits&osCsid=aa125bfae949098b6e833d0 d3010c61f)

[cougar9150]

let me see if i got this right, selling the eaton due to money issues? yet you wana spend 1000 dollars more for a centri set up? i not sure i understand

I'm not spending it today but pricing out other options for down the road. With the Eaton I would have had to make a few changes to the car to keep it good for DD use.

I remember you saying that you were burning the tires off with the Eaton, TC, and gears. I drive my car 60+ miles a day, in the rain quite often since I'm in Florida, and think that the typical power curve of centrifugal SC's is the more practical path with my current and upcoming N/A mods.

I also have a pretty good idea that I can do this for about $3k give or take a few hundred, basically for about the same as Eaton swap.

This is the Q/A stage at the moment, so I can choose my path, make my bill of materials, and begin picking up the odds and ends once the cash flow is right again. Basically what I would be doing for an eaton swap picking thing up part by part.

In the end I have priced out the Eaton swap would cost, what I would need to change on the car to to have it where I would want it, and I see the Eaton being more expensive in the long run for me. Plus I need the money to fix stuff right now so the Eaton goes and it will be a good 6 months before I even pick up the bracket kit and head unit. I may end up asking the wife for these at Christmas and my B-day.


I have a Paxton 1500sl in a Vortech Mach 1 mounting bracket. You would be surprised how much it cost to have custom mandrel pipes made $$$. You could all ways use all silicone piping http://www.siliconeintakes.com/stpg.php?page_id=silicone_bene fits&osCsid=aa125bfae949098b6e833d0 d3010c61f (http://www.siliconeintakes.com/stpg.php?page_id=silicone_bene fits&osCsid=aa125bfae949098b6e833d0 d3010c61f)

Thanks for confirming the Paxton w/the Vortech bracket. So a 2200 SL would fit :cool:.

I have a vendor my company uses who would cut me a good deal. We use them for plumbing on our ultra high vacuum systems and I send several thousands of dollars in business their way every year. My company is also opening a machine shop to start building things in house and I will be able to play once it's up and running.

I don't plan going with all mandrel, I will be doing it in sections and using the couplers to make my connections. I would get them powder coated to cover up ground down weld beads.

[cougar9150]

Lots of things that are not very good sell well, popularity does not mean quality. Just look at how many people vote for the same crappy politicians year after year.;) The less efficient an S/C is generally the more heat it will generate. Pro Charger is known for very efficient intercoolers.

The main problem I see with Pro Charger vs Vortec is the straight cut impeller vs curved and the way the drive gears are cut. That does not mean Pro Charger is not good or that Vortec is better.

A product that has a design flaw in one area can make it up in another and a product that has a superior design in one area can loose it in another.

IF you are partial to Pro Charger why are you asking the questions?

I'm actually really partial to Paxton but wasn't 100% sure about the bracketry required or what could fit. Suki and NTD answered a couple questions, I did a little research and believe that I could fit a 2200 w/no problem onto the Vortech Mach1 bracket.

Just took your first post as a little swipe a Procharger and felt a second opinion from the left was required. :beer:

[RR|Suki]

The 1500 and 2200 are not really "traditional" Novi head units, they are basically Vortech units with paxton badges in my mind. No shock that those fit on the Vortech bracket, and that's good news for you.


For pipe, you can just buy pre bent alum pipe on Ebay. Mine on the intake side is maf --> 4" 90 degree --> 3.5" paxton tube, then out of the blower --> straight 3" pipe to intercooler --> 3" straight pipe out of the intercooler --> 3" pipe with a 90degree bend at the end --> pipe from a cobra kit that goes to the throttle body. Add some 4ply silicone couplers and t-bolt clamps and you're in business. Very easy

[cougar9150]

The 1500 and 2200 are not really "traditional" Novi head units, they are basically Vortech units with paxton badges in my mind. No shock that those fit on the Vortech bracket, and that's good news for you.


For pipe, you can just buy pre bent alum pipe on Ebay. Mine on the intake side is maf --> 4" 90 degree --> 3.5" paxton tube, then out of the blower --> straight 3" pipe to intercooler --> 3" straight pipe out of the intercooler --> 3" pipe with a 90degree bend at the end --> pipe from a cobra kit that goes to the throttle body. Add some 4ply silicone couplers and t-bolt clamps and you're in business. Very easy

Exactly what I was thinking. Figure the hardest will be configuring the air to air IC plumbing to properly clear everything.

[RR|Suki]

Exactly what I was thinking. Figure the hardest will be configuring the air to air IC plumbing to properly clear everything.

Gotta say with the paxton intercooler it's very easy since the pipes on it curve up under the front bumper and point straight up into the engine bay. But man, seeing the prices people are asking for them, it would be worth the hassle of figuring out a universal side in and out.

Looks like you're off to a good start either way.

[Pat]

You have a lot to consider. I'm not going to read all the posts, too complicated but if you want 400+ HP look into Reinharts NOVI non intercooled kit (Paxton 10lbs boost).

It's complete and costs less than 4K. It's can be self installed or by Reinhart engineering in Jacksonvill, Fla.

I see your from Florida, I believe Mr. Reinhart provides the tune gratis and the installation cost is reasonable.


Regards,

[ImpalaSlayer]

car only blows the tires off if i want it to, honestly, i think youd be better with a centri in FL anyway since my IATs are through the roof in the heat around here. i was barely able to catch a 3v gt.

[Local Boy]

WOW!

To think I've been blowing the doors off the competion...with a *****ty blower...

Horse Power is Horse Power no matter how you get it...ProChargers put out equivalent amounts of Hp as any other matching Supercharger...

Gotta Love It...!:beer:

As far as pipes...is this what your'e looking for?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22 136&stc=1&d=1281144786

Aloha

[RR|Suki]

my IATs are through the roof in the heat around here. i was barely able to catch a 3v gt.

wow, that's rough :(


PS. Good lord local boy that's a ton of pipe and couplers :eek:

[Seneca]

WOW!

To think I've been blowing the doors off the competion...with a *****ty blower...

Gotta Love It...!:beer:

As far as pipes...is this what your'e looking for?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22 136&stc=1&d=1281144786

Aloha
Lol... I hear ya. I'm happy with mine. Cant wait to get a stall. good luck with your build nice to see some more custom setups being put together! :banana2:

[Local Boy]

Hahahahah...LOL

Yeah, I totally re-did my pipes and intended to powder coat and switch (pipes) as I go along...

Haven't had time for that though...

Aloha

[RR|Suki]

Hahahahah...LOL

Yeah, I totally re-did my pipes and intended to powder coat and switch (pipes) as I go along...

Haven't had time for that though...

Aloha

Oh so that's two sets of pipes? At first I thought you needed all of that. I was shocked, I use 4 pieces of pipe and 6 couplers on mine.

[Local Boy]

No, intercooler?

I use a few more than 4...:)

No, these are the extras...I was experimenting with different approaches, and thought they were going to be different lengths when I ordered them...Decided to just keep them... considering the shipping out of here...The refund would of just paid for the shipping...

Aloha

[cougar9150]

Gotta say with the paxton intercooler it's very easy since the pipes on it curve up under the front bumper and point straight up into the engine bay. But man, seeing the prices people are asking for them, it would be worth the hassle of figuring out a universal side in and out.

Looks like you're off to a good start either way.

Ya i looked at that Paxton IC and it is way more expensive than I want to go. I was thinking the Mishimoto (the have ones in black and I am friends with a local dealer) or the Icevex ones at superchargersonline.


You have a lot to consider. I'm not going to read all the posts, too complicated but if you want 400+ HP look into Reinharts NOVI non intercooled kit (Paxton 10lbs boost).

I know Dennis and have bought a few things from him in the past. I want to build this myself and make something on my own. Plus there is no way I would run a non-intercooled car daily in Fl.

I already have a good tuner in my area and pretty much only trust him to tune my car.


WOW!

To think I've been blowing the doors off the competion...with a *****ty blower...

Horse Power is Horse Power no matter how you get it...ProChargers put out equivalent amounts of Hp as any other matching Supercharger...

Gotta Love It...!:beer:

As far as pipes...is this what your'e looking for?

Aloha

The picture in your post pretty much sums up what I plan on picking up. I know the shop we do business with would let have some so called scraps. I will weld a couple of pieces, and may see about getting a couple custom pieces done to install a universal IC.

I plan on making a mock IC out cardboard and playing with a few lengths of tube before I decide exactly what IC unit I'll choose. Want to make sure I clearance everything properly and decide if I'll move the battery and air compressor to the trunk.

I'm thinking I could route the SC outlet through the battery tray area to the IC and then come out where the air compressor sits to the intake. Definitely won't look stock or like a made for setup but I'll make it pretty. I have been thinking of relocating the battery and compressor anyways and I believe will make the plumbing easier to configure.

[Local Boy]

Let me know if you could use some of it...

Aloha

[Paul]

I've been running the DR Novi 1200SL non-intercooled kit here in Orlando with no trouble. I don't race it, but it's certainly a thrill to drive.