Need help with a spoiler issue.

[CRUZTAKER]

The issue with the incorrectly installed spoiler on my Marauder finally goes to arbitration this month. I don't have a date yet, but it will be within a few weeks. This is NOT small claims court, this is an arbitration hearing with the Better Bussiness Bureau that will assist me in resolving this dispute with the installing company, as they have left me with no other option to correct this problem as needed.

The beauty of the arbitration is that I may offer 3rd party opinions. And with the plethera of members here, what better nail in the coffin but the insightfull input from the members of the largest MM club in the WORLD!

Those of you that have seen my car first hand, I am asking you to send me a PM with your brief and professional opinion of what you feel is wrong with my spoiler install. All I ask is that it is something I may present at my hearing, and include your first name, screen name, and member number, where, and when you saw it, and your brief opinion.. Make it appear as we have our act together :P

For those of you who haven't seen it....I'll attach some pics here. The problem is that the spoiler is mounted too far back off the trunk trailing edge. (Too close to the rear window glass) It needs to be moved 2 or so inches to the rear of the decklid and actually overhang.

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by CRUZTAKER
....I'll attach some pics here.

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by CRUZTAKER

[merc406]

Wait a minute, you want it closer to the frt of the car on the deck lid? Looks fine from here, but WTF do I know?

[TAF]

He meant to say "too far forward" towards the rear glass...

Expect a PM from me, my friend.:up:

[CRUZTAKER]

The other point I need to make is the fact that this spoiler looks great on this car

The installer is claiming that I DO NOT LIKE the spoiler, and am using THEM as a scape goat to have it removed!!!

Please add in your comments your opinion of the wing choice in general. I will try to pull all comment made in past threads if I can find them all.

Here is a pic of what it should look like
BTW: member Robotech911 has the same spoiler in his gallery pics...looks awesome as well!!

[Logan]

I agree cruz, needs to be 1.5 inches further towards the rear of the car IMHO. Feel free to use me as a reference as needed.

[kurly]

Cruz,

I am looking at the 03 Mercury Marauder factory brochure

There is no way your spoiler is mounted as dipicted in this company literature.

The spoiler is practically falling off the back end of the car.

It literally shades the chrome Merc emblem.

If you need a copy or a scan just let me know.

There are 3 strong pix that support your position.

[Directedby]

Originally posted by kurly
Cruz,

I am looking at the 03 Mercury Marauder factory brochure

There is no way your spoiler is mounted as dipicted in this company literature.

The spoiler is practically falling off the back end of the car.

It literally shades the chrome Merc emblem.

If you need a copy or a scan just let me know.

There are 3 strong pix that support your position.

It's a different spoiler.

[Bigdogjim]

Barry: Done deal...........Look for the PM...............:):):)

[Paul T. Casey]

Saw it in Hershey, will pm you.

[Paul T. Casey]

Let me know if that's what you mean.

[Glenn]

The most important question is what did the written instructions state as to the proper position of the spoiler??? What does the spoiler manufacture say is the proper mounting postion?? The factory spoiler has detailed installation instructions and even templates to drill the necessary mounting holes.

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by Glenn
The most important question is what did the written instructions state as to the proper position of the spoiler??? What does the spoiler manufacture say is the proper mounting postion?? The factory spoiler has detailed installation instructions and even templates to drill the necessary mounting holes.

Hello Glenn! Your city was my former stopping point on the way to the house in Bradenton.

To answer your question...the instructions state that the mounting location is up to the customer. The vendor was told what to do, but now denys it. The template provided is exactly just that...a template for hole designations, but not spoiler placement. The manufacturer, Dream Wing Inc., sent me a letter in response to the photos I have posted and have come to the conclution that "the concensus at Dream Wing feel that the spoiler is mounted too far to the front of the vehicle, and the installer should have discussed his intentions with the customer prior to drilling holes..."

[CRUZTAKER]

A big thanks to Paul Casey for sending me your simple 3 line PM that gets right to the point. It is perfect for court presentation.

Thank you to Smokie for your quick to the point response.

And a BIG thank-you to 'DirectedBy' for sending all those correctly installed spoiler pics. I hope you send an opinion PM as well.

I am anxiously waiting for the other promised folks to reply, and Logan, drop me a quikey PM as well. I would really like an opinion in PM form from the PREZ/CEO!!! Now if I only knew how to contact Steve Babcock?

[GordonB]

CRUZTAKER,
I had to look at your spoiler 3 times before I realized thet you do NOT have the factory option spoiler.
FWIW, we have the factory spoiler and my wife interfaced with the body shop and showed them 3 pics from the Marauder brochure. She also got direct instructions from me on the correct placement -- hung off the back end of the car kinda like an extension to the rear deck lid. PLUS, the FORD template shows where to drill the holes. Taken all together, I got a great job. There is maybe a side to side variance of 2mm. But I won't quibble about that. The factory spoiler is meant to look VERY SUBTLE, IMHO. Hope this helps.
Your best bet is to use the letter from the manufacturer, Dream Wing Inc, as the most compelling basis of evidence for why yur install was done wrong.
GordonB.

[TAF]

Originally posted by CRUZTAKER
I am anxiously waiting for the other promised folks to reply,

Finally got around to it, Barry...check PMs. And call BigDog to walk in with you for "negotiations":D

Can't think of anyone else I'd rather have...:up:

"Dirty deeds....DONE DIRT CHEAP!!!"

[kurly]

I had to look at your spoiler 3 times before I realized thet you do NOT have the factory option spoiler.
FWIW, we have the factory spoiler and my wife interfaced with the body shop and showed them 3 pics from the Marauder brochure. She also got direct instructions from me on the correct placement -- hung off the back end of the car kinda like an extension to the rear deck lid.
GordonB. [/B][/QUOTE]

Cruz, I concur with GordonB per my earlier quote. Good luck with getting a fix.

[TJH]

I'd say your best weapon will be the commentary from the manufacturer. Although it appears too far forward for my tastes, my tastes also tend to shy far away from wing-style rear spoilers. The wing on the Mazda 6 Sport was the exact reason that I did NOT consider buying that car. Too boy-racer, ricer wannabe for me...
Now, the question that will be material to this, is exactly what instructions were given to the shop. I would have outlined EXACTLY the distance from the upper rear edge of the decklid to the rearmost edge of the spoiler stanchion, and supplied it in writing, with you retaining a signed copy for your records. Otherwise, I would have made sure that I was standing there when they drilled the holes.
This is part of the reason that I'll be installing my (factory) spoiler myself- There is no way that I'll pay someone over $200 for something that I can do better myself, given about 1/2 hour and a Unibit in my Dewalt cordless...
Then again, I don't shy away from doing my own paint work, either...

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by TJH
Otherwise, I would have made sure that I was standing there when they drilled the holes.


TJH: You hit it right on the nose. I failed...I failed myself, and I failed my best attribute...being thorough and extremely organized.

You see, I trusted these folks, they've done alot of work for me. The salesman was too busy that morning, the installer didn't come to work until the afternoon....the others didn't seem interested...so I left a note with the spoiler:( I lose...but not neccesarily.

As far as asking my friends to drop a PM, something as a bonus on court day....priceless!!! I would do the same or more for anyone on this board, and already have. We need to take care of each other, we're not a bunch of car owners....WE'RE A BUNCH OF MARAUDER FANATICS!!!! :D

Now give me a ooooh awww:P

[Dr Caleb]

Big hug Barry. Nothing but love!

[213Cobra]

Some perspective on your spoiler issue:

1/ If I were the arbitrator I would not find in your favor. The reason is that the installation looks professional and aligned, and you bought a generic wing rather than a model-specific spoiler that would have had more obvious positioning. Unless you marked the holes or provided exact specifications for placement, I would not find against the installer.

2/ You bought a wing, not a spoiler. Personally, I think a wing is out of place on a 4 door sedan, certainly one as big as a Marauder. It is like wearing sneakers with a Zegna suit. No, no, no. The factory option spoiler is not a wing and is at least design-integrated with the car's exterior architecture. I think it is aesthetically superfluous but not disturbing. It may or may not be functionally valuable. If you are putting an appendage on the ass lid of a Marauder, this is the preferred option, IMO.

3/ A few years ago, Car & Driver tested a sampling of mainstream cars with stock wings and spoilers to determine whether they had any functional value. Most did not, either in downforce at any accessible speed in North America, or in freedom from deleterious effects. Interestingly, they found that the factory wing on the 94-98 Mustang GT, which is shaped very much like your wing, REDUCED top end speed by 3mph. Removing the spoiler added 3mph to the top speed in multiple trials and adding it back did nothing to improve handling! That wing, BTW, is located on the Mustang trunk lid pretty much where yours is on your Marauder, so one could argue that your installer used a ubiquitous reference and made a reasonable placement.

4/ It's possible your best case is that by mounting the wing so that it truck lid lies under its entire longitudinal and latitudinal surface, the downforce of the inverted wing might be offset by compression of air under it.

I think you have to be a man and chalk this up to experience and an error in judgment and insufficient exactness of instructions. It happens. You can always have the holes filled and the trunk lid repainted and leave it be or start again with a correct factory spoiler.

Of course, that's just what I think.

Phil

[CRUZTAKER]

Thank you Phil...I respect your opinion :)

Several members that I have met in person also expressed a disliking. This style is definately for only some tastes.

I realize the performance issue...there is none. It's just what I like to call...pleasing to the eye. :D

I will however disagree with ITEM 2. ^^^in your reply. This spoiler WAS the plan on the concept vehicle...it just didn't work out for DOT reasons. I have this info personally from the man:coolman:

[CRUZTAKER]

A big thanks to TOD, RICH LONG, and ZACK for your support

...great letters guys.

[TJH]

Barry-
I wish you luck in getting this ironed out- I know how frustrating it can be when something you were really looking forward to doesn't turn out as expected.
In looking at the pictures, I'd have to say that the placement of that spoiler could be argued either way. Where they ended up placing it, aligns better with the angled upward sweep of the rear deck lid, so as to carry the line up at the same angle. Placed farther rearward, that line would be interrupted, and could be argued that it would tend to make the side view too busy.
If you notice, the factory spoiler corrects this, by changing the entire angle of that section of the decklid. By being located at the corner of the decklid, and covering that 3-4 inch angled section, the sheetmetal contour is changed to better work with an accessory that effectively lengthens that visual line.
What the shop SHOULD have done, and which very nearly ALL competent shops do, is to wait until they receive clear, unambiguous confirmation from you as to where you wanted the spoiler placed. Lacking that, if I were the shop foreman, I would have stopped work on the car until you provided that direction, or were physically there to verify what was being done.

Tom

[CRUZTAKER]

^^^Exactly...right on the money Tom. Thanks^^^

I'm keeping that post as well if you don't mind.

[TJH]

Nope, don't mind at all.
As is so often the case, communcation is always the key. Lacking, or being unclear on any information required, should be reason to stop work. Immediately. Especially when we're talking about putting holes in pristine sheetmetal- if we were discussing simple tape pinstripes, it wouldn't matter. But when you're cutting into steel, the only prudent course of action is to be sure of what you're about to do, before doing anything.
Unfortunately, this shop decided to forge blindly ahead...

[TAF]

I hope everyone here is helping with this, Barry. Especially...those who have seen your car. For those of you that haven't...it should look like this installed...
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=500/885marauder04.JPG

[CRUZTAKER]

Yup! That's Robotech911's former car. I actually gave this very picture to the installer the day of the install.
They (the installer) now claim
that THIS photo was inconclusive and a "poor internet Pic" provided by Barry....

[CRUZTAKER]

I want to thank all of those who replied to this thread, and all PM comments whether positive, negative, or indifferent. I also want to clear the misunderstanding that I was intending on using them as direct evidence. I did not make it clear to all, that all I wanted was the ability to toss a pile of letters on my stand during my closing statements and declare, ‘here is what a few of the several thousand Mercury Marauder club members had to say….yada, yada…’. If someone actually wanted to read them, well, bonus for me!

I just wanted to throw around the ‘strength in numbers’ card when the moment of decision arrives. What better input than from the folks that know what we like, and what we don’t care for…US, MercuryMarauder.net national baby!

In closing, I wish to thank everyone again, and ask that you keep those comments coming in, as I don’t have a court date yet.

Thanks,

Barry (guy with the fubar spoiler)

[Haggis]

Barry,

What I remember when I saw your car at Hershey, and the pictures posted on the this site, is that the wing looked, to me, to be too far foward and that it should be brought back 3-4 inches so that it over hangs the edge of the trunk better.

It looked different and made your car stand out. It is what you like and I back you up on that, do I want one....well no, but then again each his own.

I hope the judgement goes in your favor, you being a friend, but as has been posted here before both sides need to take some responsibity with this matter. They didn't need to be a**holes and could have gone ahead and fixed it for you without all this B.S. seeing as you have had them do work for you in the past.

Good luck with this issue, sorry I could not be of any more help.

Best of Luck,
Gordon

[GordonB]

Barry,
If you offered the installer the picture you posted above here, then the installer CLEARLY goofed. The pic shows that the rearward placement of the spoiler (rearmost edge of the 3 spoiler mounting points) should line up with the rear EDGE of the trunk decklid (this is the difinitive, sharp edge of the decklid -- can ge found blindfolded by running your hand over the trunk lid from front to rear, standing on the side of the car) .
Any good body shop should be able to read my post above and look at the pic and HAVE A CLUE! However, if they have ANY doubts, then they should have WAITED until they talked to you IN PERSON.
Do others agree with my opinion?
GordonB

[TAF]

Originally posted by GordonB
Do others agree with my opinion?


yep...that's why I posted the pic...and why it's so large.:up:

[CRUZTAKER]

More thanks go out to Jeremy, NickLee, Gordon and Gordon!!!!

Thanks guys, the pile is now growing. What a deal :D

Barry

PS: It's not too late to give an opinion, I don't have a court date yet.

[Petrograde]

Expect a PM from me soon Barry,...

Tom

[CRUZTAKER]

Thanks Tom, it sure is appreciated.

Thank you as well AFSP13, hoping for your demobilization soon.

-Barry

[bigbaga]

Barry,

I sure hope this gets resolved for you soon, AND in your favor. I wanted to thank you again for the information about where you got your spoiler. The first time I saw a picture of our spoiler I said, "that's the one I want". I gave my wife the phone number of the place where you got yours. I really hope I'm getting one for Christmas! I was going to install it myself, at least I'm now really sure where it should be mounted! Do you think this would be too difficult to install for someone with a little better than minimal "do it yourself" skills?

Greg

[CRUZTAKER]

Hey Greg, no problem, and thanks for the support. I hope you get it for xmas:up:

As far as doing yourself, the wife and I did 2 on different cars working together. I would say that it IS possible....it's just the drilling part....it almost hurts:P

You will need to do some special stuff that will require a second person. PM when/if you get it.

Barry

[jfclancy]

looks LIKE A NICE SPOILER
IMPROPERLY INSTALLED TO ME

Joe Clancy

[CRUZTAKER]

Thanks to LVMarauder, the 'money shot' is here.

The best comparison I could come up with, and this pic will be presented at arbitration.

Any and all comments are appreciated, and if you want to build the pile, send me a PM.

Thanks everyone! :up:

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=500/627Spoiler_comparison-med.jpg

[jgc61sr2002]

Barry - That picture said it all. I think that is the best evidence to date. Good luck in court.

[kurly]

LVMarauder's spoiler is definitely the way it should be installed. Position is compatible with the factory installed spoiler.

[RCSignals]

Barry, I suggest you tale a picture duplicating as close as you can, the distance and centering of the LV Marauder's picture. It will more clearly show that the spoilers are indeed the same type, and that yours is located too far forward.
Right now, it kind of looks like your spoiler is a different type in the picture.

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by RCSignals
Barry, I suggest you tale a picture duplicating as close as you can....

I took several pics of my spoiler recently in an attempt to duplicate LVMarauder's pic. Turned out to be more difficult than I had imagined. Particularly without a digital camera to keep trying.

This was the best I could do. It is better than the last.
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=500/627Spoiler_compare-landscape-new-small.jpg

[cyclone03]

OMG Your latest post pic looks awful!
Why didn't they just screw it in the middle of the trunk lid!
Truthfuly I'm not a spoiler guy,but when the placement is wroung they look even worse.

[RCSignals]

The new pics are an improvement anyway, at least it now looks more like the two spoilers are the same model

[CRUZTAKER]

Thanks RC, your opinions, insight, and interest in my issue is very appreciated :)

Still waiting on a court date. Likely after the holidays.

[Marauder8]

The spoiler installed on your MM is meant for a Grand Marquis.
The MM Spoiler is very different and is impossible to install incorrectly.
It does hang over the rear badge, thus making deck lid about 4 inches longer.
Good luck...........

[Merc-O-matic]

Where or when did they ever
come up with a spoiler for
a MERCURY GRAND MARQUIS?


Gotta Love It!
Grand Marquis with spoiler!!!

[CRUZTAKER]

A hearing date with the arbitrators has been scheduled for January 21st, 2004.

I'll let you all know the decision, once one has been reached.

[SergntMac]

You know, Barry, I liked your spoiler the very first time I saw it, it would be my only choice should I want to go the spoiler route. Now that I see how it's SUPPOSED to be mounted, I understand your disappointment, and your frustration.

Did the installers know anything about aerodynamics? Your spoiler is waaaay too far off the lip of the trunk to be of any functional value to you, not to mention a major cosmetic distraction. It's supposed to provide a downward force against the rear of the car, not lift it! Did your trunk ever just pop open while on the road?

Good luck in your debate, hope all goes well.

[Marauder8]

This is what an MM Spoiler looks like installedhttp://www.mercuryaccessories.com/fas/images/products/MERCURY/Grand_Marquis/2W7Z-5444210-AAA_md.jpg

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by CRUZTAKER
A hearing date with the arbitrators has been scheduled for January 21st, 2004.
I'll let you all know the decision, once one has been reached.

I would like to thank everyone once more for all the creative input in helping me with this issue. I re-read the some 20 PM's that were sent to me and man, you folks are the best. I can't thank you enough. I will be presenting the PM's as my last batch of evidence, and after sweating it for 9 hours today, I have finally got my case together. Now all I can do is wait and see. Either way, it's gonna get fixed. I am just hoping it doesn't bite MY pocket. I will be so thrilled to have this thing mounted correctly for the upcoming '04 events.

I will be asking Rick, LML, to close this thread tonite, as our work is nearly done. If there is any one else that wants to add to the PM pile, please do so.

I'll let everyone know the results next week after the hearing. Wish me luck!

Barry