Alternator Squeal arising again, I want to get to the bottom of this...

[MrBluGruv]

Ok, so over the past few days, the alternator has started again with the chirping/squeaking/squealing noise, which I am almost positive is the bearings being worn or damaged. At this point, it only does it a little to moderate amount at higher-than-idle rpm for a semi-short period of time (usually 5 minutes tops) right when I start the car, and that's usually after it's been sitting a while.

After crawling the internet looking for answers, which were surprisingly sparse given the search criteria (most people can't diagnose simple belt slip apparently), I've really only come up with 4 or 5 realistic possible solutions, some from what I found and some from just ideas:

1: I have a gravel driveway, and south texas this time of year is extremely hot and dry, when parking the car a fair bit of dust is kicked up. Could it seriously be possible that the alternator is getting dusted up inside that badly?

2: I wash the car at a quarter car wash almost weekly. I don't spray into the engine bay though. This one is a bit of a stretch to me, seeing as I would figure that'd put about as much moisture into the engine bay as driving in the rain, and it'd be absurd to think that little moisture would kill it.

3: After a lot of reading, I've seen a number of references citing an overly tight serpentine belt can cause premature wear because of the stress it places on the pulley (ergo, on the bearings). Does this seem like a likely possibility? And moreover, how many members here have actually had this problem occur to them?

4: Another extreme. Like I mentioned about, it gets HOT down here, on my way home my outside temp read 104 degrees. Could high ambient temperature really present that much of a problem to it?

5: Lastly, I don't think the battery has been replaced ever, pretty sure it's factory equipment. I saw one place mention that a weak battery could put enough strain on the alternator to kill it, by basically heating it up and causing damage to the bearings.


One other bit of info to consider, when I bought the car mid-2008, I'm pretty sure it had the factory alternator, and it didn't start with the bearing squeaks until the following summer. When I replaced that, in about a month and a half time it started again, and now this summer I had to replace THAT one, and in about a month's time THIS one is doing it too. I imagine you can see my frustration. The belt is new, had to get a smaller one for the U/D pulleys (I see many members running U/D pulleys without alternator issues, so I don't see that that should be a problem). The tensioner was replaced a year ago with the last alternator. There is literally nothing else I can think of in terms of parts that could be causing this problem.


I am seriously at my wits end here, I'm tired of dropping a couple hundred bucks at a time on a frequent basis for something so trivial. I also feel ashamed by a problem like this, I feel to others it would appear as though I don't take care of my car to have those kinds of noises coming from it. I would appreciate any experience or advice you folks can give me on the situation.

[tbone]

Wash your engine bay. It doesn't hurt it one bit. I have 113,000 on my MM and the engine looks almost new.

Have you tried a Goodyear Gatorback belt? It solved my problem.

[ImpalaSlayer]

brother i feel your pain, i just took a vid of mine and im uploading it now. its down right embarrassing. i KNOW the squeak is coming from the brushes on the regulator but i don't know how to fix it. once this is uploaded let me know if it sounds the same

[RF Overlord]

3: After a lot of reading, I've seen a number of references citing an overly tight serpentine belt can cause premature wear because of the stress it places on the pulley (ergo, on the bearings).

The belt is new, had to get a smaller one for the U/D pulleys (I see many members running U/D pulleys without alternator issues, so I don't see that that should be a problem).Ah-HA!

Did you change the alternator pulley when installing the underdrives, thus requiring the smaller belt? Most people only change the crank and water pump pulleys, allowing use of the stock belt.

Maybe your smaller belt IS too tight...

[ImpalaSlayer]

Ah-HA!

Did you change the alternator pulley when installing the underdrives, thus requiring the smaller belt? Most people only change the crank and water pump pulleys, allowing use of the stock belt.

Maybe your smaller belt IS too tight...

the belt doesn't make anything any tighter, its a spring loaded tensioner, no t possible to control belt tension

[tbone]

the belt doesn't make anything any tighter, its a spring loaded tensioner, no t possible to control belt tension

It's possible the belt is too small and putting too much tension on the tensioner.

Who knows the specs?

[ImpalaSlayer]

It's possible the belt is too small and putting too much tension on the tensioner.

Who knows the specs?


LOL its not possible, the spring has linear tension through out its swing.


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eyBIkB1XNfM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eyBIkB1XNfM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyBIkB1XNfM

[MrBluGruv]

Ah-HA!

Did you change the alternator pulley when installing the underdrives, thus requiring the smaller belt? Most people only change the crank and water pump pulleys, allowing use of the stock belt.

Maybe your smaller belt IS too tight...


I specifically told them not to use that one, as I was aware that the MM is not built to use that like the Mustangs are, but if it's true the stock belt size is fine with just the crank and HB pulleys, I'm gonna be pretty furious, because the guy told me I need a belt that was smaller (like 2 inches I think? it was 2 something smaller, don't think it was centimeters but I don't know) because the stock one was too loose and the tensioner was as taught as it could go with it and it still had some slack. A more expensive belt that didn't need to be bought that caused this alternator to die? I think we're gonna have some problems...

I'm gonna check my battery tonight, I honestly can see nothing else being the culprit other than too tight.

And I'll post up a vid later of the alternator I just replaced with this one right before I took it to the shop, I was honestly terrified to even drive it when it was making that noise.

[tbone]

LOL its not possible, the spring has linear tension through out its swing.




<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eyBIkB1XNfM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eyBIkB1XNfM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyBIkB1XNfM


LOL It can only "swing" so far! Maybe its pegged. LOL

[tbone]

LOL its not possible, the spring has linear tension through out its swing.


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eyBIkB1XNfM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eyBIkB1XNfM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyBIkB1XNfM

That sounds like crap.

[ImpalaSlayer]

That sounds like crap.

tell me about it! i wana smash that damn thing

[tbone]

I specifically told them not to use that one, as I was aware that the MM is not built to use that like the Mustangs are, but if it's true the stock belt size is fine with just the crank and HB pulleys, I'm gonna be pretty furious, because the guy told me I need a belt that was smaller (like 2 inches I think? it was 2 something smaller, don't think it was centimeters but I don't know) because the stock one was too loose and the tensioner was as taught as it could go with it and it still had some slack. A more expensive belt that didn't need to be bought that caused this alternator to die? I think we're gonna have some problems...

I'm gonna check my battery tonight, I honestly can see nothing else being the culprit other than too tight.

And I'll post up a vid later of the alternator I just replaced with this one right before I took it to the shop, I was honestly terrified to even drive it when it was making that noise.

I'll bet my last dollar you are maxing out your tensioner with the wrong belt size and putting too much pressure on other components. Call the U/D manufacturer.

[MrBluGruv]

OT7o-d01KQk

This was my last one, the morning that I decided it NEEDED to be replaced ASAP.


What I don't understand is why my setup with U/D pulleys should be different than anyone else, who apparently can run with even the factory belt length.

[ImpalaSlayer]

NICE!!! lol, my last one sounded similar before it locked up, spit the belt, cut the timing cover and dented the hood.

[MMarauder03]

Hmm... I guess I'll upload a vid of mine, it only does it when its hot, and it doesn't sound like either of those, but its not the belt

[MrBluGruv]

That actually reminds me, one extra note: the squealing seems to go away after about 5 or 10 minutes of operation at this point. Temperature and humidity seem to make no difference on when it will happen.

[RF Overlord]

the belt doesn't make anything any tighter, its a spring loaded tensioner, no t possible to control belt tensionIt most certainly IS possible, if the tensioner is maxed out because the belt is too short...

[ImpalaSlayer]

It most certainly IS possible, if the tensioner is maxed out because the belt is too short...

you would never get it on then.

[tbone]

you would never get it on then.

Wrong..............

[MrBluGruv]

OK, went out just now and checked the battery. It's a solid 12.8 V. Couldn't pop off the cap to test the cells though.

I took a couple of pictures and a video of what it looks like, forgive me if the quality isn't the best, a cool front/storm front decided to blow through RIGHT when I started shooting. :(

PnSZ6PJp6u4




Couple things I noticed:
The idler pulley (I think that's the one?) has parts that are shiney metal instead of being solid black. Not sure if that's significant or if it's even remotely an issue.

The belt seems REALLY taught, I may just not know the tension that's supposed to be there, but I tried to illustrate the tension in the video, I pressed down with a decent amount of force on that belt.

I have zero reference for how that tension arm is supposed to look or how much it is supposed to be angled.

[tbone]

OK, went out just now and checked the battery. It's a solid 12.8 V. Couldn't pop off the cap to test the cells though.

I took a couple of pictures and a video of what it looks like, forgive me if the quality isn't the best, a cool front/storm front decided to blow through RIGHT when I started shooting. :(

PnSZ6PJp6u4




Couple things I noticed:
The idler pulley (I think that's the one?) has parts that are shiney metal instead of being solid black. Not sure if that's significant or if it's even remotely an issue.

The belt seems REALLY taught, I may just not know the tension that's supposed to be there, but I tried to illustrate the tension in the video, I pressed down with a decent amount of force on that belt.

I have zero reference for how that tension arm is supposed to look or how much it is supposed to be angled.

You cannot tell from the test you just did. There is so much tension on that belt that a finger can't measure. Too much tension can be worse than too little.......I won't go over it again.

It's not like the old days where you use a tire iron to force the alternator over while your friend tightens up the nut and bolt.......

[SID210SA]

I had about the same problem....however my squeak didnt sound exactly like that....I went through 3 belts in about a year and a half....I didnt change my pullies...all is still stock on the belt system. After going through the 3 belts I changed brands and haven't had a problem since.....If you want you can bring your car to my place or I can go over to your place and we can figure it out and you can use my car as a reference.

Mike

[Blackened300a]

I'll bet my last dollar you are maxing out your tensioner with the wrong belt size and putting too much pressure on other components. Call the U/D manufacturer.
Exactly.


It most certainly IS possible, if the tensioner is maxed out because the belt is too short...
Agreed.

The stock belt even takes a bit of pressure to install with the U/D pulleys. You have too small of a belt and its killing your alt bearing. The stock belt is always used with U/D pullies. The bigger waterpump pulley makes up the slack of the smaller crank pulley. Get the right belt.

[Zack]

From the pics provided your belt is way too long and it appears there is no belt tension.

If your idlers are stock replace the bearings or the idlers altogether....100k is the max lifespan of them. Also replace your battery if its stock...you are right about a bad battery killing alternators.

[MrBluGruv]

From the pics provided your belt is way too long and it appears there is no belt tension.

If your idlers are stock replace the bearings or the idlers altogether....100k is the max lifespan of them. Also replace your battery if its stock...you are right about a bad battery killing alternators.

There is absolutely NO slack in the belt though, like it doesn't move at all when I apply pressure.

When I inevitably have to take this in to replace it, I will see about replacing the idlers though, they are definitely worn and haven't ever been changed. The battery read 12.8V on a volt meter and is not original equipment, but I wasn't able to check the cells in the battery because I couldn't get the cover off before a storm came in last night.

[Zack]

I hope you figure it out. In any case, you have way too long of a belt on there. Its obvious by the 2 pics you provided the tensioner is sitting on its stop.

[MrBluGruv]

What's throwing me for a loop here is that I'm being told, and have seen, that other members running U/D pulleys use the stock belt size, but then with a belt that is smaller than OE, I'm being told it is too long?

I'm gonna call the shop at some point this morning and ask about how long they warranty their parts. I think I'm still in warranty, but if not than it really can't hurt to go all-out on this other than that it's another f-ing expense with this car. I'm also gonna ask if they used a Motorcraft replacement part, what length of belt they chose to use, and why it was that made them think I had to have a new shorter one (if they actually tried to fit the original on and it was too loose, or if they just said "oh it has U/D pulleys, it needs this shorter belt).


edit: while I think about it, any of your guys using a gatorback, what part number did you use for factory spec?

[MM2004]

For reference...

35k on the clock, U/D's and stock belt.

No squeaks.

Sorry about the crappy pics but should get the point across.

Hope this helps?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/08-17-MM-Belt1.jpg (javascript:;)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/08-17-MM-Belt2.jpg (javascript:;)

Mike.

[MrBluGruv]

I'll go back this evening and try to shoot better pictures and video, the ones I have don't really show very good spatial relativity.

I just got off the phone with the shop, they said that they tried the belt and it was way too loose and that's why they had to use the shorter belt, and that there was no possible way the OE could work. When I mentioned every other owner I knew with U/D pulleys had that, they asked me if these people were actually mechanics. I asked about warranty, they said they'd have to check the paperwork but that these alternators come with lifetime warranty *if they aren't actually charging*, suggesting that this would almost guaranteed not be covered. I'm really not happy right now. Gonna check at lunch to see if this is actually a Motorcraft alternator. I'm going by the shop after work, and they are going to "look at it", I'm positive they won't find anything because by the time it takes me to get there the noise always subsides. I guess it doesn't matter about how long I take though if they won't do warranty with it...

[RF Overlord]

In light of recent replies indicating your belt may be too long, are you sure they routed it correctly?

Something makes no sense here...they told you the belt they put on is shorter than stock, but the tensioner is completely slacked?

As Johnny 5 said; "Need more input!"

[Blackened300a]

Try a stock size belt and see how much slack you have and if it improves your problem. If you have the noise already then the damage is done. Also make sure its definitely coming from the alternator. Did you try spraying some WD-40 on the tensioner pulley and the idler while its making the squeal?

[MrBluGruv]

I did do that before a year ago with the last alternator, and it made it temporarily worse. Tonight I will give it a try after I get back from the shop looking at it, unless they give e a very specific solution to look for or a reason to not mess with it for the time being.

[tbone]

DON'T spray WD-40 on the belt. It makes it much, much worse.

[MrBluGruv]

Well guys, had a chance to go by the shop after work, talked with the head honcho and he gave me some further troubleshooting tips, and with some help from "dad the mechanic" we were able to isolate where the noise was coming from:

Idler pulley right above the tensioner arm.


Frankly I'm a little relieved, I'm hoping this is a cheap fix. We noticed with the car running that the pulley had a slight forward and backwards oscillation in relation to the engine block, we sprayed some CRC Belt Conditioner on the serpentine and found that the chirping not only came back, but that it was in sync with the oscillations of that pulley. Isolated the sound and sure enough, it's been THAT pulley that's been chirping at me, not the alternator this time.


I greatly appreciate all of you guys advice and tips and effort in helping me solve this problem, I gained a lot of knowledge from this, and I have one more favor to ask: if anyone had the part number for that pulley so that I could replace the whole thing, I would be able to give it to my mechanic so that he could order the part and pop it on when I bring the car by after work instead of leaving it there a whole day (CRAZY crazy work schedule).

Attached is pic with the highlighted pulley I need to replace.



(PS: +1 to Zack, nailed it. ;) )

[tbone]

Good for you. Now wash your engine!

[Zack]

Smooth idler from NAPA: http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?A=NBH38006_0163158 674&An=599001+102003+50046+2046038

Ribbed Idler is a dealer item only.

Do yourself a favor and replace the bearings only and save 25 bucks.
Tell NAPA you want a 6203 Bearing and they will know what to pull.

[MrBluGruv]

Thank you for the link. Pardon the silly question so early in the morning, but that pulley does or doesn't come with bearings? And if no, do I need the 6203 bearing as well as the pulley (I think I'll just go ahead and replace it anyways since I'm there)?

[Egon Spengler]

Ahhh... I had the same issue with my 2000 Ranger when I had it. I heard sqealing and replaced the belt and it was still there and I came to the conclusion that it was the same pulley for me as well on the ranger!

[ctrlraven]

Make sure you wash that engine!! lol

It is always easier to work on a clean engine as you can see where leaks are coming from and sort. Glad you figured the problem out. I replaced my tensioner and idler pulley at the same time with Dayco models. Just replaced my drive belt also with a Gatorback.

[Zack]

Bearings come in the idler pullies.

Since metal doesnt wear out, its stupid to buy the whole assembl when you can swap bearings.

[tbone]

113,000 and clean as a whistle.

[MrBluGruv]

Problems.


New motorcraft pulley was installed this afternoon, and the squeal now is consistently present above about 2800 rpm, getting louder and stronger until you cross about 5K rpm, all this under any load.

Gonna see about going back tomorrow and making him hunt for and replace this Gates belt with a Gatorback, if this doesn't solve the problem I'm completely lost...

[Blackened300a]

Make sure its the stock size belt.

[MrBluGruv]

I was able to check with Mike last night, and the tension in my belt is almost exactly identical to his, so I don't think the size difference is really gonna be an issue here after all. BUT, I'm gonna be calling the shop today to see about swapping the belt with a gatorback, if that doesn't work I'll see about stock size I guess, after that I really don't know what else to do besides re-replace EVERYTHING on the front of the engine, and I'm not sure if that's worth it to me.

[SID210SA]

Glad I could be of some assistance.

[MrBluGruv]

Yeah I was glad to compare engine bays last night, of course now I feel even more ashamed of the filthy mess below my hood. :( lol.

It was kind of reassuring to hear that your same squeak/squeal problem from the same area in the engine bay was solved by a new belt. We'll see in about an hour when they put a different brand belt on...

[ctrlraven]

Goodyear Gatorback belt stock size p/n #4060922

[fastblackmerc]

Belts:
Serpentine (NAPA) – PBH4060923 - stock
Gatorback (Goodyear) – 4060922 - stock
Gatorback (Goodyear) – 4060915 - / electric water pump

Belt Tensioner:
Dayco – 305291
Goodyear – 49293

Idler Pulleys:
Dayco (smooth) - 89007
FoMoCo (ribbed) - YW7Z-8678-AA

[MrBluGruv]

The brand he used was MasterPro I believe, which I've found is O'Reilly's house brand. At this point I've heard mixed opinions on it, so we will see if it lasts. The mechanic said he'd use it over a Gates belt because the Gates belt are made cheaply apparently. I think I may just go ahead and buy a Gatorback for if/when this one goes out, because I think I can confidently rule out anything but the accessory belt as the culprit for my noise issues at this point. I will file away the part number, thank you guys for the info. :)

Also, just because I'm curious, anyone else have experience with the MasterPro brand?

[MM2004]

The brand he used was MasterPro I believe, which I've found is O'Reilly's house brand. At this point I've heard mixed opinions on it, so we will see if it lasts. The mechanic said he'd use it over a Gates belt because the Gates belt are made cheaply apparently. I think I may just go ahead and buy a Gatorback for if/when this one goes out, because I think I can confidently rule out anything but the accessory belt as the culprit for my noise issues at this point. I will file away the part number, thank you guys for the info. :)

Also, just because I'm curious, anyone else have experience with the MasterPro brand?

I hear nothing but good things in the Marauder community about the Gatorback belts.

My recommendation, as many members here have them, is to go with what they have experience with.

Could save you time and money in the long run.

IMHO

Mike.

[fastblackmerc]

The brand he used was MasterPro I believe, which I've found is O'Reilly's house brand. At this point I've heard mixed opinions on it, so we will see if it lasts. The mechanic said he'd use it over a Gates belt because the Gates belt are made cheaply apparently. I think I may just go ahead and buy a Gatorback for if/when this one goes out, because I think I can confidently rule out anything but the accessory belt as the culprit for my noise issues at this point. I will file away the part number, thank you guys for the info. :)

Also, just because I'm curious, anyone else have experience with the MasterPro brand?

Never ever heard of MasterPro.

I switched out the OEM belt for a Gatorback and never looked back!

[Phrog_gunner]

For aftermarket Gatorback and Dayco polycog (not the standard dayco that is the house brand for places like advance) are the way to go for aftermarket, anything else isn't worth the time or effort.

[fastblackmerc]

For aftermarket Gatorback and Dayco polycog (not the standard dayco that is the house brand for places like advance) are the way to go for aftermarket, anything else isn't worth the time or effort.

Or money..

[Zack]

No belt is gonna cause squealing IMHO......unless there is not enough tension, or the belt is soaked in an oily fluid.

[tbone]

The brand he used was MasterPro I believe, which I've found is O'Reilly's house brand. At this point I've heard mixed opinions on it, so we will see if it lasts. The mechanic said he'd use it over a Gates belt because the Gates belt are made cheaply apparently. I think I may just go ahead and buy a Gatorback for if/when this one goes out, because I think I can confidently rule out anything but the accessory belt as the culprit for my noise issues at this point. I will file away the part number, thank you guys for the info. :)

Also, just because I'm curious, anyone else have experience with the MasterPro brand?

I'm surprised after all you've been through, you just don't go with the Gatorback belt that nearly every member here has recommended. Instead you go with one almost no one has heard of.:lol:

[RF Overlord]

There's nothing wrong with Gates belts and hoses. I would use one over an unknown-quality parts-store house brand, which are usually built to a price point.

[fastblackmerc]

There's nothing wrong with Gates belts and hoses. I would use one over an unknown-quality parts-store house brand, which are usually built to a price point.

+1!!

Well said!

[MrBluGruv]

I'm surprised after all you've been through, you just don't go with the Gatorback belt that nearly every member here has recommended. Instead you go with one almost no one has heard of.:lol:

This belt was a free replacement. If it fails or starts making noise, I'll then insist my mechanic find a Gatorback, or just pay the 30-something bucks out of pocket and be done with it.

[tbone]

Sometimes it's best just to pay more for the sake of sanity.