Detroit Locker/axle retainers won't fit...need help... [Archive]

GreekGod

09-22-2010, 05:01 PM

...I have removed the complete rear axle, disassembled it, pressure washed it, took it to a respected local rebuilder, and reinstalled it, with Ford Racing 4.10 gears, new 31 spline axle shafts, and a 31 spline Detroit Locker. Now I am attempting to install the axle shaft U-washers (commonly referred to as C-clips), and I can't get them in. Not enough clearance, and the shafts are pushed in all the way.

Has anyone had this problem? It isn't a fun job, working on my back, and running into a problem like this. I sure hope I don't have to take the whole thing out again.

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Darrin

09-22-2010, 05:15 PM

You don't have the ABS sensors in place and blocking the axles from full travel do you?

Darrin

GreekGod

09-22-2010, 05:32 PM

You don't have the ABS sensors in place and blocking the axles from full travel do you? Darrin

ABS sensors are still out.

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babbage

09-22-2010, 05:34 PM

You don't have the ABS sensors in place and blocking the axles from full travel do you?

Darrin

+1 ^^ What he said - impressive that you are doing it yourself! I'm not that brave... Was the trak-loc toast?

Is this Mad Max?

Edit: could be something wrong with the Detroit. I'd see if the axle fits on the bench - then you know for sure.

GreekGod

09-22-2010, 05:41 PM

+1 ^^ What he said - impressive that you are doing it yourself! I'm not that brave... Was the trak-loc toast?

Is this Mad Max?

Edit: could be something wrong with the Detroit. I'd see if the axle fits on the bench - then you know for sure.

This is on my 2003 MM. The reason for the upgrade was a 2nd axle bearing & shaft failure. I (had) put in a new 31 spline Trac-Lok and axles. The shafts are OEM length and the spline fit (but not washer fit) was checked before installation.

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babbage

09-22-2010, 05:50 PM

So you pushed the 31's into the detroit (on your bench) all the way before putting the locker in the axle itself and you COULD see that you'd be able to push the c-clips on?

GreekGod

09-22-2010, 05:52 PM

So you pushed the 31's into the detroit (on your bench) all the way before putting the locker in the axle itself and you COULD see that you'd be able to push the c-clips on?

No, I only checked the slip fit.

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babbage

09-22-2010, 06:11 PM

Sucks to take the Detroit out, but I think I'd check it on the bench, then you know your not crazy.

imorb1994

09-22-2010, 06:14 PM

When I rebuilt my rear end, I too could not get the c clips on easily. My issuse was one of the lug studs was hitting something, not allowing the axle all the way in reclocked axle and slid all the way in. My parts were all oem replacements though, hope this helps
Also it is alot easier to get them in with the help of an assistant

Spectragod

09-22-2010, 06:59 PM

blazen71

09-23-2010, 04:28 AM

Ding ding ding..... I ran into this when I did my Wilwoods and the trac loc on my sport, re clock your axles, the studs ae hitting.

^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^^^

Blackened300a

09-23-2010, 08:02 AM

Ding ding ding..... I ran into this when I did my Wilwoods and the trac loc on my sport, re clock your axles, the studs ae hitting.

Exactly, I had this same issue putting my diff back in. Just hold pressure when turning the axle and it should pop in the 1/8" you'll need to get them in.

RoyLPita

09-23-2010, 10:04 AM

Are the ABS ring sensors pushed in all the way?

GreekGod

09-23-2010, 01:52 PM

...I believe I have discovered the cause of my woes...The axle shafts I am trying to use (from Rock Auto) are too short...more correctly, they cut the retainer groove 1/8" too short. It is 33 7/8" from the outside flange to the outside of the groove, instead of the OEM 28 spline, which are 34". Overall length is 34 11/32".

I called Eaton this AM, and talked to "Brent" (they have an 800 number, with an excellent "phone tree"). He told me they have sold thousands of Detroit Lockers and he had never heard of my problem (story of my life). He said it had to be something else besides the 8.8" diff, and he was correct. Photos to follow.

I have ordered 2 new axles from my local Ford dealer. They now list for $278.05 each.

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GreekGod

09-23-2010, 02:22 PM

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../gallery/data/500/medium/28-31_Spline_Axles_002.jpg

OEM 28 spline @ 34" ^^^ --- Rock Auto 31 spline @ 33 7/8" VVV

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../gallery/data/500/medium/28-31_Spline_Axles_001.jpg

fastblackmerc

09-24-2010, 03:51 AM

Can you grind 1/8 inch off the "C" clips?

babbage

09-24-2010, 04:46 AM

Can you grind 1/8 inch off the "C" clips?

:confused: The axle itself is too short.

Well at least you figured it out and didn't have to take the rear apart. Can you return the shorter axles?

fastblackmerc

09-24-2010, 04:54 AM

:confused: The axle itself is too short.

Well at least you figured it out and didn't have to take the rear apart. Can you return the shorter axles?

No...

Reread posts # 14 & 15.

"they cut the retainer groove 1/8" too short"

babbage

09-24-2010, 05:14 AM

Yes I see. But it's insanity to attempt to grind the C clip down so it fits.

GreekGod

09-24-2010, 01:08 PM

Can you grind 1/8 inch off the "C" clips?
Surely you are joking?

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GreekGod

09-24-2010, 01:17 PM

:confused: The axle itself is too short.

Well at least you figured it out and didn't have to take the rear apart. Can you return the shorter axles?

Both OEM and aftermarket axles are the correct length (Overall length is 34 11/32"). The non-OEM axles have the retainer groove cut too close towards the outboard end, which would place the axle flange against the parking brake (IF I could get the c-clip/retainer/U-washer into the groove).

Hopefully, Rock Auto can arrange a return to their supplier.

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fastblackmerc

09-24-2010, 01:22 PM

Surely you are joking?

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No, any machine shop can do it provided there will be enough "strength" left.

GreekGod

09-25-2010, 10:05 AM

RoyLPita

09-25-2010, 11:56 AM

Is it possible that the differential is wrong?

DTUB

09-25-2010, 12:22 PM

...Now I'm really screwed...the Ford axles came in today, and they are the same length as the axles from Rock Auto...33 7/8" to the retainer groove. Ford must have changed something for the 31 spline shafts? But what could be different? Different part number for the (more narrow?) 31 spline housing?

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I had my 31's done a couple of weeks ago from the same guy who originally set up my 410's. Stock Ford axles and Auburn pro posi. So standing there watching him install the axles I notice he's having trouble getting the clips in. His solution is a lead hammer and a couple of hard smacks on the flange and they fell right in.
Now I'm not sure if this is the right procedure to install axles but I haven't had any problems yet. :)

GreekGod

09-25-2010, 03:56 PM

Is it possible that the differential is wrong?

"I called Eaton this AM, and talked to "Brent" (they have an 800 number, with an excellent "phone tree"). He told me they have sold thousands of Detroit Lockers and he had never heard of my problem (story of my life). He said it had to be something else besides the 8.8" diff..."

They can't go in any farther (the way they are now), because the studs are hitting on the parking brake lever.

I saw a L-M parts man today, and he is going to look up part numbers Monday to see if he can figure out the problem.

I am wondering if I can have some machining done to the caliper brackets (as a last resort, if the parts man can't figure things out), to move the axles in. I really want to know the source of the problem.

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DTUB

09-26-2010, 02:06 AM

Pics would be helpful...

GreekGod

09-26-2010, 10:01 AM

Pics would be helpful...

Please see panel #15 in this thread.

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DTUB

09-26-2010, 11:58 AM

I meant pics of the studs and brake lever.

GreekGod

09-26-2010, 04:29 PM

I meant pics of the studs and brake lever.

Here is the damage to the Park Brake lever from the 1st 31 spline installation (the back of the studs were hitting):

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../gallery/data/500/medium/31_Spline_Axle_PB_Damage_001.j pg

babbage

09-26-2010, 05:32 PM

See if they fit into a Ford trac-lok, got one lying around?

GreekGod

09-26-2010, 05:40 PM

See if they fit into a Ford trac-lok, got one lying around?

See if what fits into a Trac-Lok? The 31 spline axles?

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babbage

09-26-2010, 05:48 PM

See if what fits into a Trac-Lok? The 31 spline axles?

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I'm guessing you don't have a ford 31 trac-lok so that's perhaps not possible (above) Try bench fitting the 31 axles you have into the Detroit, which means you have to take it out. Or take it back to your guy and have him install your axles.

GreekGod

09-26-2010, 06:06 PM

I'm guessing you don't have a ford 31 trac-lok so that's perhaps not possible (above) Try bench fitting the 31 axles you have into the Detroit, which means you have to take it out. Or take it back to your guy and have him install your axles.

I have been driving with a Trac-Lok and 31 spline axles for the past year. That is how I discovered the parking brake lever damage, when I had my left rear axle bearing fail this summer, for the 2nd time.

My rear end rebuilder wouldn't be able to install the axles, because the 31 spline retainer groove is cut too short (outboard).

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fastblackmerc

09-26-2010, 06:15 PM

RoyLPita

09-26-2010, 06:17 PM

I guess if you want 31 spline axles, you'll have to find a 2005 and up CVPI housing.

GreekGod

09-26-2010, 06:19 PM

Where are you measuring from?

I'll check my Moser 31 spline.

I measure from the flange. The tape hook is on the outside of the flange. That is the standard way to measure.

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GreekGod

09-26-2010, 06:26 PM

I guess if you want 31 spline axles, you'll have to find a 2005 and up CVPI housing.

Unless Ford uses different/thinner caliper brackets with the "Limo"/31 spline axles? All Panther chassis have 31 spline axles after 2005. I assume they were used/available from 2003<2010, as a DSO (fleet?) option.

My Mercury parts man will be checking part numbers tomorrow.

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DTUB

09-26-2010, 06:50 PM

GreekGod

09-26-2010, 07:03 PM

I'm wondering if my new Ford axles (6W1Z*4234*A) weren't short as well since they had to be hammered in slightly. Your clearence issues don't make sense. Has anything changed with the parking brake setup?

If your "mechanic" had to hammer your axles in, he probably crushed something (likely the park brake lever, as in my photo). The head of my axle stud hits the park brake lever, keeping it from going in any farther.

What doesn't make sense is using a hammer to make things fit. My neighbor works on vehicles, and his favorite tool is a big hammer. I wouldn't let him work on a Tonka Toy.

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Blown3.8

09-27-2010, 07:56 AM

The ford 31 spline axles are short. Get Mosers for your year car. Ford must have changed the axle housing when they did the 31 spline on the cop car.

LANDY

09-27-2010, 09:15 AM

The ford 31 spline axles are short. Get Mosers for your year car. Ford must have changed the axle housing when they did the 31 spline on the cop car.
So this means everyone that's running them will have the same problem? I have a set that are going in I a couple of weeks.

fastblackmerc

09-27-2010, 09:28 AM

My Mosers measure 33 7/8 from the outside of the flange to the inside edge of the "C" clip slot.

cougar9150

09-27-2010, 09:31 AM

TooManyFords

09-27-2010, 09:41 AM

^^ Best advice yet.

/thread

J-MAN

09-27-2010, 11:00 AM

Nothing to contribute, but am really curious to the solution/outcome. Isn't the 31 spline a common upgrade? Why no problems until now?

GreekGod

09-27-2010, 02:24 PM

Would installing the C-clip eliminators correct/fix the situation? If you don't have to install the clips then the different location of the groove shouldn't be an issue :dunno:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/C-Clip-Eliminator-Kits/Axle-Model/Ford-8-8-in/?keyword=c-clip+eliminators

"Designed for applications with stock axles in the factory Ford housing ends. Will not fit truck or disc brake axle housings."

They are also not for street use.

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GreekGod

09-27-2010, 03:01 PM

Got my info from a Lincoln-Mercury parts man today. The 31 spline axles for our post '04 chassis were a mid-year change to the 2005 Police Interceptor, followed by all 2006 & newer Town Car, Grand Marquis, & Crown Victoria.

The housing and R & L caliper brackets (6W1Z-2B582-C, list $188.00 each), are different part numbers than 2003-2005 "Panthers" (except for the mid-year PI change).

It seems the '98-02 Limo 31 spline axles won't work, because they use F150 axle tubes, with a big truck wheel bearing.

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cougar9150

09-27-2010, 04:21 PM

"Designed for applications with stock axles in the factory Ford housing ends. Will not fit truck or disc brake axle housings."

They are also not for street use.

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I take it you didn't look at the Moser ones at Summit or past the first set on the list. Here is a link to the page for stock axle diameter Mustangs:

http://www.moserengineering.com/other-parts/c-clip-eliminators/c-clip-eliminators-for-1979-2004-7-5-and-8-8-mustang-capri-and-fox-body-fords.html

Technically the 31 spline axles are stock axles and one would be able to use this kit. They use the same part number for the rear wheel bearings and seals so I am assuming for this that the 28 spline and 31 spline are the same diameter.

Unless you changed your bearings to a larger diameter these would fit fine.

My Kooks headers are not intended for street use either but they work fine. My MM among probably many other members has more than a few things not intended for the street. The Mosers don't have that disclaimer if it concerns you that Drag race only was stated.

GreekGod

09-27-2010, 04:28 PM

I take it you didn't look at the Moser ones at Summit or past the first set on the list. Here is a link to the page for stock axle diameter Mustangs:

http://www.moserengineering.com/other-parts/c-clip-eliminators/c-clip-eliminators-for-1979-2004-7-5-and-8-8-mustang-capri-and-fox-body-fords.html

Technically the 31 spline axles are stock axles and one would be able to use this kit. They use the same part number for the rear wheel bearings and seals so I am assuming for this that the 28 spline and 31 spline are the same diameter.

Unless you changed your bearings to a larger diameter these would fit fine.

My Kooks headers are not intended for street use either but they work fine. My MM among probably many other members has more than a few things not intended for the street. The Mosers don't have that disclaimer if it concerns you that Drag race only was stated.

from the Moser website:

Can I use c-clip eliminators for street use?
A. We do NOT recommend using C-Clip Eliminators for street use; a C-Clip Eliminator is made for drag race only ( As a safety issue so you do not loose an axle, if it breaks ).C-Clip Eliminators are made for the straight shot down the strip. If you use C-Clip Eliminators on the street the aluminum block will eventually flex from cornering or just going around curves causing the C-Clip Eliminator to leak Rearend fluid.

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TooManyFords

09-27-2010, 04:34 PM

Time to pony up for a 9-inch.

GreekGod

09-27-2010, 04:42 PM

Time to pony up for a 9-inch.

I can only dream of a 9". It would be superior to what we have. I am told the deal breaker is the ABS tooth ring, and the Watts link

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Spectragod

09-27-2010, 05:09 PM

I have a 8.8 out of a 2008 P71 with low miles, if that would help you out.

GreekGod

09-27-2010, 05:22 PM

I have a 8.8 out of a 2008 P71 with low miles, if that would help you out.

Thanks, but I have local sources for used parts, if I need them.

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cougar9150

09-27-2010, 05:33 PM

from the Moser website:

Can I use c-clip eliminators for street use?
A. We do NOT recommend using C-Clip Eliminators for street use; a C-Clip Eliminator is made for drag race only ( As a safety issue so you do not loose an axle, if it breaks ).C-Clip Eliminators are made for the straight shot down the strip. If you use C-Clip Eliminators on the street the aluminum block will eventually flex from cornering or just going around curves causing the C-Clip Eliminator to leak Rearend fluid.

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I just checked with a buddy who knew has been running his DD Fox body with eliminators for about 2-3 years and he uses the Strange Engineering ones. Said something about a ABS ring was needed so I looked on the Strange site and it's P/N A1096 and requires A1094E needs to be used with ABS. Sumit says Drag Race only, Strange says street/strip.

Numerous people on many other forums have run the Strange and Mosers on the street for years with no problems. A few people did mention the Mosers ones leaking but far more had no issues. I didn't see any complaints about the Strange ones on the quick scan of various forums.

You could always just weld on some 9" ends with the correct bearing size and that would also eliminate the need for C-clips. Good luck....

GreekGod

09-27-2010, 05:42 PM

I just checked with a buddy who knew has been running his DD Fox body with eliminators for about 2-3 years and he uses the Strange Engineering ones. Said something about a ABS ring was needed so I looked on the Strange site and it's P/N A1096 and requires A1094E needs to be used with ABS. Sumit says Drag Race only, Strange says street/strip.

Numerous people on many other forums have run the Strange and Mosers on the street for years with no problems. A few people did mention the Mosers ones leaking but far more had no issues. I didn't see any complaints about the Strange ones on the quick scan of various forums.

You could always just weld on some 9" ends with the correct bearing size and that would also eliminate the need for C-clips. Good luck....

Mustang/Fox rear brakes and ABS rings are different than MM rear brakes. 9" ends won't work with our ABS rings.

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GreekGod

10-03-2010, 09:53 AM

2006< 31 spline axles won't clear the park brake hardware on my '03 MM, when I installed a Detroit Locker. The 31 spline axle retainer is cut "shorter" than the 28 spline. Deleted the park brake back-plate assembly to allow "c-clip" installation. I had to sleep on this problem for a few nights, and this less-than-desirable solution became apparent to me....
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../gallery/data/500/medium/MM_Park_Brake_Delete_001.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../gallery/data/500/medium/MM_Park_Brake_Delete_002.jpg

Dragcity

10-12-2010, 12:09 PM

GreekGod

10-12-2010, 01:40 PM

So, this sounds like the Detroit Locker (specifically) is 1/8" deeper than all other differentials. As such, all axles for our cars that normally work, wind up 1/8" too short....

I think You are the first to attempt a Detroit Locker in a Marauder. I want to be the second, but am unwilling ot sacrafice my parking (Emergency) brakes.

I would really like to know the internal dimensions of the Locker vs. all other diffs.

A review is in order, since this thread is getting a little too long (at 2 pages).

It seems Ford changed something (besides just the spline count) when they went with the 31 spline axle shafts in the 2006< Panther chassis (Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, & Town Car). I suspect Ford moved the R & L bearing hub inward a small amount, but I haven't confirmed my "hunch".

The 31 spline Detroit Locker is correctly dimensioned, but is not a "bolt-in", with our 2003-'04 axle housing, because the Panther 31 spline axle shaft retainer groove is cut shorter than the 28 spline shaft groove. According to Eaton, I am the first to contact them, regarding this Panther specific problem. They report the 8.8" Detroit Locker is a "bolt-in" with Mustangs & trucks.

Moser can/will make axle shafts for the MM, but they will not fit ABS rings or safety hubs. Same for Strange. Do not confuse Mustang & truck applications with the Panther chassis. Supposedly, (some?) Limo 31 spline axle shafts use larger truck wheel bearings (a different axle housing?).

Blown3.8

10-12-2010, 02:32 PM

OK Merc, get in here! What did Sherm buy off you? I know they were Mosers and they fit like a glove with an Eaton Tru Trac.

Merc is on vacation right now so give him a few days to respond.

GreekGod

10-12-2010, 02:35 PM

OK Merc, get in here! What did Sherm buy off you? I know they were Mosers and they fit like a glove with an Eaton Tru Trac.

Merc is on vacation right now so give him a few days to respond.

"Moser can/will make axle shafts for the MM, but they will not fit ABS rings or safety hubs. Same for Strange".

JohnE

11-20-2010, 12:59 PM

Doesn't the Marauder have 03 Limo axle shafts, with a slight wider rear track than the standard Panthers? If so, that is the difference that is causing issues using regular 06+ Panther axles.

John

babbage

11-21-2010, 05:57 PM

Doesn't the Marauder have 03 Limo axle shafts, with a slight wider rear track than the standard Panthers? If so, that is the difference that is causing issues using regular 06+ Panther axles.

John

Ooo. I bet you are right. Sounds familiar. The 03 limo axles are 31 spline?
I should have posted up the dimensions of the Dorman 28's (pn 630-214) that do fit an 03 MM.