Another......"Oily Thread"!!!!

[Marauderjack]

Well RF & Gang....

I had a long talk with an "Oil Guru" today and he is convinced that we all would benefit by single viscosity oil....20W in winter and 30W in summer!!:confused:

His reasoning was pretty solid in that the viscosity modifiers (for multi-vis oils) and anti-wear agents break down to form Phosphoric Acid which likes our metal parts!! He also said that the military will not use multi-vis oils?? :confused:

He also said that frequent oil changes will make all the difference regardless which oil you use.....Well duh!!!:rolleyes:

Well.....ziiiiiip......I have my flame suit on....have at it boys!!:flamer:

Marauderjack:D

[RedMM]

If I've told you 5W times, I've told you 20W times-don't have a BREAKDOWN over oil!!:lol: sorry.... I couldn't resist...hope you will be Valvolene-ient with me!!

[CRUZTAKER]

^^^he he^^^
No flame here...I'm just gonna sit back and learn. What I do know however, is that it could be 80 degrees here, and 30 the next day....

[Marauderjack]

CRUZTAKER.....

I think you nailed it!! ;)

For most "civilian" drivers the multi-vis oils make life easier and ultimately give us longer engine life!!:)

If we had multiple vehicles for various weather conditions.....endless funding......a "motor pool" to lean on......and we didn't own our vehicles......we wouldn't be concerned??
:confused:

The fact that we do own our cars and want them to last and perform well we search for the best products and optimum servicing intervals!!:)

I know that the folks that bought my used cars and boats got better than average stuff in excellent condition but it really didn't make any $$$ difference to me as used values are "average" used values!! I guess we are satisfied that we have the BEST while we own them and that's good enough for me!! :D

Marauderjack:cool:

[Amsoil_Dealer]

I love oil threads!

There is some logic to your guru's comments but single weight oils are not very practical in today's markets. Plus, your point about multi-vis oils and start up wear is spot on. Finally, I agree that if one changes the oil at 5000 mile intervals there is so little breakdown (in most cases) that acid is not a problem.

This supports the theory that long drain synthetic oils have higher TBN (Total Base Number) to neutralize those acids over time as they form. This is also supports my argument that to be sure what is going on in one's engine, used oil analysis is the only true measure of an oil's effectiveness.

Don

[merc406]

We use to run straight 20 weight when at the strip in the late 60's early 70's, got our best times on it, but it's outdated oil tech. compared to the syn.'s.

[SergntMac]

I love these "oil" threads too, may I explain why?

We all own MMs, and we're all gonna break something, that's for sure. For some here, it will be questions of breaking loose at the 1-2 shift. For others, it will be questions of breaking pinion gears into kibbles and bits.

This MM.Net is a diverse community, lots of different exprience,and different input. Lots of different answers and output too. Let us spend our Q&A energy where it ultimately serves us best?

As long as y'all change your oil in a timely manner, I don't think 30 days or 3K miles means dick. Just be timely about it, make it your routine. Free free to continue hashing out weights, viscosoty, and so on, like that's going to make, or show, any difference. As long as y'all get tied up here, that clears a path for others to examine and debate more serious complications.

Don't worry, we'll drop back and lend y'all a hand with what we learn in our new found elbow room, K?

[Marauderjack]

One more thing he said was that the black color oil gets is not from carbon or dirt....It's phosphoric acid!!!:( If you change frequently enough you won't see "black oil" and acid will never be a problem....??:confused:

If you use single weight oil it will stay "clean" much longer as the phosphoric just isn't there like in multi-vis??:rolleyes:

I don't know but I agree that motor oils have come a long way and I hope that the ones we use meet all the specs they are supposed to??? After all they are products of "human controlled" plants??? SCAREY!!!! :(

Happy Motoring!!!:D

Marauderjack:cool:

[VaderSS]

Dark oil has phosphoric acid in it?
Has this "guru" ever had his oil analyzed?

Multivis oils still provide better start-up protection, wheter it's cold or hot outside. The single weight oil will be thicker than the multi weight at normal ambient temps, and the key to start-up protection is to get the oil flowing ASAP. The ONLY advantage a single weight has over multi-vis is the lack of VI improvers. In this day and age, VI improvers are not the liability they used to be.

Military does not use multi-vis? Whatever.

[Marauderjack]

VaderSS...

This guy seems to be in the know and said the black color in multi-vis oil is phosphoric acid from the zinc dialkyldithiophosphate breaking down??? :confused: :confused:

He says if you try single viscosity oil it will stay clear much longer......I'm gonna stay with the recommended stuff for now anyway!!:)

Marauderjack:D

[jgc61sr2002]

jack - I concur. IMO the recommended oil is the way to go. I will continue to use that until FMC advises differently.

[VaderSS]

zinc dialkyldithiophosphate AKA ZDDP, a rust and corrosion inhibitor additive in all detergent oils.
The ZDDP does not break down in single grade oils? Or is he advocating the use of non-detergent oils?

If the ZDDP does break down into acid, and I just don't really think so since it is a corrosion inhibitor, then the calcium in the oil will neutralize it.

[RF Overlord]

Sounds to me like the last car this guy worked on belonged to Fred Flintstone...he may be correct for motors of the '50's and '60's, but oil technology has progressed a great deal since then...

I've been registered on BITOG for 2 months now, so that makes me an expert... :rolleyes:

:lol:

[RCSignals]

Well if an engine goes because of using the recommended oil, who's at fault?

If an engine goes due to lubrication problems and you've been using less than the recommended oil, what happens?

Manufacturers do analyse the oil in dead engines these days

[Marauderjack]

Call the guy yourself and ask the ???'s!!;)

1-800-434-9192

He sells additives that appear to have some benefits and the "Seal Lube" does work in older motors....My brother has a 64 Vette that leaked like a sieve and the stuff stopped it without "surgery"??:confused:

The visc modifiers and heat break down the ZDDP which "liberates" zinc that works as an anti-wear agent on cams...lifters...any "metal to metal" wear points. As zinc is released the phosphate reacts with combustion by-products and forms phosphoric....sounds plausible to me?? Maybe not?? :confused:

Bottom line is frequent oil changes (cheap) with recommended oil and all of this is of no consequence!! :)

Marauderjack:D

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
I've been registered on BITOG for 2 months now, so that makes me an expert... :rolleyes:


You must have been privy to the voluminous posts from some guy by the name of Patman by now...

Very opinionated guy, will fight his case until death... or so it seems, because a year or two later, he'll switch camps and begin to get beligerent (sp?) about the opposing view. Very annoying... I used to respect his opinion until I followed one of his pieces of advice and ended up with adverse effects.

He's great at making horrible financial decisions (sells each of his cars at huge losses, and they're always pretty mangled up, mechanically) and is incapable of holding a wrench in the right orientation (but is very proud of his oil change techniques, mind you).

[VaderSS]

Just my opinion, but I don't think this person knows what he is talking about. Edit(Not talking about Patman, but the guy specifying single weight oils)

My opinion on oil;
Run any name brand oil with 3-4k oil changes and you will probably never experience an oil related failure.

Synthetics are a cost effective way to extend your drain and/or get more reserve protection. If extending your drain, you should get oil analysis to verify that it is safe.

Oil analysyis is always a good idea even if not extending your drain.

FoMoCo vehicles have a little "gotcha" in that they specify oils meeting WSS-M2C153-H, it is possible (but unlikely, especially with DEALERS putting 5W30 in) to get denied a warraranty claim if running an oil that does not meet that spec, basically, a 0/5W20 oil. Some have quoted M-G act, but that only means Ford can't specify Ford products without giving them to you for free. They can specify oils meeting a certain spec. To put it in a different light, there are a few fluids speced by manufacturers that noone but that OEM makes, most notably in some AWD applications. The specs for the fluids are available to oil manufacturers, they just chose not to make that fluid. Run a fluid that does not meet the spec and I can promise the warranty will be denied, if they know about it.

That said, 5W20 oils are all about CAFE. I've posted an article here explaining it. Basically, the EPA allows a manufacturer to run 5W20, so that they can get better scores on their fuel economy tests. The EPA requires that the manufacturer then make it very clear that you should run 5W20, and people have to consistantly run 5W20, or the manufacturer will not be allowed to use 5W20 in its future fuel economy tests.

I feel that, unless a higher viscosity oil is specified, that 10W30 oils offer the greatest combination of protection, both a startup, in normal running, and in high load situations. I feel that 5W30 gives better startup protection with little loss in other areas, so I run that.

My opinions, and that is all they are, have come about from many years of research and practical application using oil analysis to establish trends. The formation of BITOG and my participation in discussion there has strenghthened my opinions. Basically, when talking different oils, we are splitting hairs, 9 times out of 10.

[joflewbyu2]

Start with the thinnest oil recommended when new then as the car ages and burns oil go thicker. Keep using the same brand throughout the engine life. I am starting with mobil 1 0-20 and in time will go to 0-30, then 5-30, then 10-30. Thats if the engine burns oil at all. And yes, 5w-20 oil is for cafe reasons but the engine tolerances are extremely tight especially made for the thinner 20 weight oil.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by VaderSS
That said, 5W20 oils are all about CAFE. Basically, the EPA allows a manufacturer to run 5W20, so that they can get better scores on their fuel economy tests. The EPA requires that the manufacturer then make it very clear that you should run 5W20, and people have to consistantly run 5W20, or the manufacturer will not be allowed to use 5W20 in its future fuel economy tests.

And we all know who sells some of the LOWEST fuel-economy vehicles on the planet, and needs all the help they can get...

Can you say Explorer, Expedition, Excursion, F150... :rolleyes:

I think only the HUMMER and my work van get lower economy...

[merc406]

Oil is kinda like Religion, I guess.

[VaderSS]

And yes, 5w-20 oil is for cafe reasons but the engine tolerances are extremely tight especially made for the thinner 20 weight oil.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you document a change in tolerances between when 5W30 was speced and when the switch was made to 5W20?

I would think(again, I don't know) that if you changed the tolerances to take advantage of the 5W20, that you would lose much of the benefit of running it, from a friction reduction standpoint, since the bearings would have to be run tighter and be bigger in area.

[TripleTransAm]

Wayne, wouldn't that be the opposite? ie. bearing CAPS are bigger but the total bearing surface smaller? (unless you make the crank journals larger, then you end up with more crank mass and larger bearing surfaces...)

Nonetheless, I too have not heard anything to the effect of this engine being particularly different from the older 5W30-running engines. And no one has brought up any specific mention of engine failures on the older engines due to 5W30 usage, if indeed those engines should have been using 5W20 all along.

Either way, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I honestly don't think anyone will notice an appreciable change in engine longevity between 5W20 and 5W30... most of us will sell the car long before then (if we don't kick the bucket first). I'd pay more attention to the actual brand more than anything... most of an oil's protection / behaviour comes from additive packages anyway.

[joflewbyu2]

At 100 degrees celcius - mobil 1 0-20 and motorcraft 5w-20 are approximately 20% thinner than mobil 1 5w-30 @ 100 degrees celcius. Check the stats on their websites. lack of oil (oil starvation) is a major reason of engine failure.

[John F. Russo]

SergntMac

OIL CHANGE
"As long as y'all change your oil in a timely manner, I don't think 30 days or 3K miles means dick."

I need clarification. Are you saying that as long as you change your oil once every 30 days or 3,000 mileas you're fine (As long as you use a Ford recommended oil or equivalent)?


GAS MILEAGE
"Last Tuesday (12/9/03) I got my best mileage ever OTR, 24 MPG, cruising an avergage of 85 MPH, as tracked by my GPS. I never would have thought I would see this kind of mileage, "winter blends" maybe?"

My Commentary
We have essentially identical cars in terms of the mecahnics of each car (as far as I know). Your car was the first and my car was the sixth made by Kenny Brown.

I got 18.5 mpg at an odometer reading of about 600 miles while driving a steady 80 mph. I haven't had the opportunity to duplicate this operating condition so that I could check my mileage. But I checked my mileage at another time driving mostly highway driving and I got 18 mpg at an odometer reading of about 12,000 miles.

You told me that there are several factors that could contribute to this difference. But this is as much as 33.3 % difference!

I'm willing to spend a significant time to determine what is causing this difference. It's costing me money anyway.

What are the three top factors that you think could attribute to this difference?

(I keep my tires at 32-34 psig and check the tires about every thousand miles and and they are usually at 30 to 33 psig when I check them.)

Thanks for your help.

______________________________ ______________________
2003 Blue 300B (Canadian) (reversed traction control, mini spare,
trunked 6 disc CD changer,clock-in-the-radio, heated front
seats, hood light)
-Born 12/10/02
-12,000 miles
-18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph
-Stock transmission (upgraded with Performance Automatic
clutches and band after stock tranny failed in 8,800 miles)
-Wheel locks (Ford)
-Badgeless front grille by “Zack”
-Zaino waxing
Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion (450 hp) Born
3/28/03
-Dead pedal
-Baer front brakes 14 in. two piston, vented rotors
-MMX Driveshaft
-377 RWTQ
-4.10 gears
-Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3 Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3
-Vortech supercharger (5 and 9 psig boost)
-Pirelli P-Zero Asymmetric (front 255/45ZR18 99Y;rear
255/50ZR18 102Y)
-FordChip
-One coil of each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring
-Ground clearance: 5 in.
______________________________ ____________________
1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel

[merc406]

Something dragging maybe? ^
John got a picture of the 61? Sounds cool, what body, Galaxie?

[John F. Russo]

Merc406
"Something dragging" This is an interesting comment.
I've gotten stuck and had to push the car and it moves relatively easily on level ground. But this doesn't mean I couln't still have something that can't be noticed from my coarse observation.

How would you determine this? I'm going to have some work done on my car tomorrow. So any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

FORD GALAXIE
It was the car of youth (21 years of age). I have Kodak photos that I have to convert. I will at a later date.

It was a black car with red/white interior. It was a sharp car with clean long lines. (My MM draws decidedly more looks when I drive in the city. Of course, only men look. Car enthusiasts seem to have one of the biggest gender differences that I know of all of the human activities that I've seen in my long life.)

It was the largest engine that Ford had made at the time and the beginning of the muscle car hp race. Then I got married and that was the end of the money until 40 years later today.

My MM really moves much faster than my stock '61 Ford with no mods.


YOUR IMPRESSIVE '63 CAR STAT
I'm impressed with your 1/4 mile stat. It's better than mine! How do you accomplish it? You must have more torque than me. What is it?

Your Mercury has nice clean lines like my Ford did.

[merc406]

498@3500 RPM, the rest is listed. That 1/4 mile time was run in the middle of July, 92 degree day, after overheating twice we got it cooled down for one run. The 3x2 is fine, but a single Dominator would be a better match for the motor, it, the tri-power just looks cool and sounds really good at WOT.

[John F. Russo]

Merc406
Thanks for the additional stats on your car. The "498@3500 rpm" is the torque I presume?

Any answer to the other question I posed?

"Something dragging" This is an interesting comment.
I've gotten stuck and had to push the car and it moves relatively easily on level ground. But this doesn't mean I couln't still have something that can't be noticed from my coarse observation.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
And we all know who sells some of the LOWEST fuel-economy vehicles on the planet, and needs all the help they can get...

Can you say Explorer, Expedition, Excursion, F150... :rolleyes:

I think only the HUMMER and my work van get lower economy...

You are forgetting Toyota trucks

[John F. Russo]

merc406
Thanks for your suggestions about "dragging".

I have to be more precise with my words. Thanks for the education.


Merry Christmas!

[Amsoil_Dealer]

[i]
I got 18.5 mpg at an odometer reading of about 600 miles while driving a steady 80 mph. I haven't had the opportunity to duplicate this operating condition so that I could check my mileage. But I checked my mileage at another time driving mostly highway driving and I got 18 mpg at an odometer reading of about 12,000 miles.

You told me that there are several factors that could contribute to this difference. But this is as much as 33.3 % difference!

-[/B]


18.5 MPG at 80 Mph is good mileage considering your 450 supercharged HP and 410 gears.. I et about 20 MPG at 80 MPH in my 99 CV with 3.27 gears and I'm happy with that. I get 22 MPG at 70 mph.

I think Sgt, Mac's 24 MPG is most suspect. I don't mean to question you Sgt. Mac but 24 MPG at 85 MPH in a 450HP 4000 lb car seems to defy the laws of physics. Particularly if you are running 4:10 gears. I just don't get it. Have you double checked the results the old fashioned way by taking miles driven divided by fuel consumed?

Don