Supercharged 2005-1/2 Marauder

[MapleLeafMerc]

I know that this rumour has been dismissed already, but a member of crownvic.net who works at STAP posted TODAY saying that they've been told about a factory supercharged MM. Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm just reporting what I have read. Maybe he's just pulling our legs.

"We are still building Marauders at STAP. Detroit is saying 2005 1/2 Marauders will be available with a SUPERCHARGED engine! I believe this will definately help make the Marauder the car it should have been from the beginning. I haven't heard any specs as of yet but I can say I was very excited to hear this. Ford has produced some awesome "force fed" vehicles in the past (see pic in sig for one example) and I think the Marauder will be another in that line. "

quote: Supercharger? Oh PLEASE Ford let it be true!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I work at STAP and that is what we are being told. "

http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB28&Number=257653&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=9&vc=1

(scroll down toward bottom of page 9 of this thread)

[Logan]

Actually, this may come to fruition, I keep hearing more and more about it from my Ford contacts...

[2003Marauder]

F.F.Y.I. That's Ford For Your Information:

2005 is when I plan to replace my Aftermarket-supercharged 350hp 1996 Thunderbird.
A supercharged MM in the 350 hp range would be the car I'd most likely buy.

[duhtroll]

I'm still confused as to how one can supercharge a 302 HP engine and come up with 350. Seems like a waste of effort and $ when you can get that amount of power (and more) from cheaper boltons.

I seriously hope that the 350 HP is a base number before SC or at the very least a RWHP figure.

Heck, I'm gonna have more than 350 flywheel as soon as I get my December check and order my DR exhaust. :)

Thanks,
-A

[Ross]

What is STAP?

[RF Overlord]

St. Thomas Assembly Plant...in Ontario, where all the MM/GM/CV/TCs are built...

[2003Marauder]

Most bolt-on superchargers are good for 60-80 hp. Take the Buick Park Ave, for example, the Ultra has a SC that adds about 60 hp. From what I've read about the roots SC is that it only takes about 1/2 hp when it's not boosting and barely affects gas mileage. Adding HP by other means, from what I've been told, may reduce your gas mileage more than bolting on a SC.

[89lxbill]

I have talked to a very reputable tuner who used to work for FoMoCo and he has been approached by Ford to calibrate the processor for a supercharged Marauder. I cannot divulge any names, but this looks to be a very good possibility.

[Lidio]

Not trying to sound overly defensive here on Fords part… But it would make sense that it would only be in the mid to high 300 hp range if the MM was to come factory equipped with a blower. Remember that it’s not the peak horse power number that’s important on a roots type blower application (that number is just to sell cars and scare competitors).
It’s the amount of torque, mid-range, and low end grunt that is added to any motor with a Eaton or roots type blower that’s felt and is productive. This is what gets the car moving and keeps it moving. The Eaton’s add mounds of low and mid range power to the little 4.6’s.

Yes you can add respectable power to a MM with several bolt-on’s. But when you start to do big rear gears, Free flowing—LOUDER exhaust, loose torque converter’s, under-drive pulleys. You start to take away from the refinements and drivability aspects that make a car like this what it is (don’t get me wrong, I do this all day, I’m an enthusiast too!). But with roots type blowers none of these are needed to achieve the goals of big torque gains with out sacrificing drivability and cruise mileage. The only problem with the blower equipped cars whether its stock or add-on is the Miles-Per-Gallon goes away in a huge way if you’ve got your foot into it all the time.

Steve Babcock him self said that they didn’t want the Marauder to be a gas guzzler when conceiving the car. So I believe that if the MM did get a blower from the factory it would probably be a very low boost application like 5 to 7 psi not 8+psi like the Cobra and the Lightning’s have. Just like the new Harley truck versus the Lightning…. It got less HP then the Lightning… but its still significantly toquier then a regular F-150 with a non SC 5.4L.

I heard that by the end of this decade that Ford is going try to have a supercharged engine option on lots more then just their performance cars. It goes with out saying in my opinion. Their engines aren’t getting any bigger cubic inch wise, and it’s difficult to add low end and mid-range torque to a 4.6L with just tweaks like heads, intake and tuning. It requires cubes!! Boost fixes this and really makes these little things come to life.

Just look at the ’03 Cobra… why did it get a blower stock? How much more from a factory reliability stand point could they have squeezed out of a 4.6L 4V in the big picture? In a car that’s approaching 3900lbs with passengers and a rag top. I mean a mass produced car that abusive kids and grown-up's alike will torture. Not some high end super high revving exotic that people are afraid to really pound in the real world.

Just some thoughts


Thanks

[Ross]

89lxbill---if there is a '05 SC MM in planning, any rumors about whether it will have the same internals we have, or some forged parts?

[woaface]

This is so exciting!!! I just can't wait any longer to get rid of that ugly Marquis in the driveway...I'm ready for something better!

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Ross
any rumors about whether it will have the same internals we have, or some forged parts?

Not to commandeer your post, but this might give you some idea of the changes the factory makes to an engine to put a blower on it and have it live a reasonable life...this is from the SuperCoupe Club of America's site, and concerns the 3.8L V6 from the Thunderbird SC...

Ever wonder what changes Ford made to the standard 3.8 L engine to turn it into an SC? (http://www.sccoa.com/articles/everwonder.php)

[Hemlock]

A 6 SPD. AUTO.AND SC WITH 350-400 HP WOULD BE MY DREAM CAR. FORD HAS ALL THE PARTS , NOW IF THEY WOULD JUST PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER......!!! CHEERS TO EVERONE FOR HOLIDAYS .

[RCSignals]

once again the news on CVN is old.
I posted this here days ago, from a post by a STAP employee made on BON

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6837

no one took notice except for MAC

[RoyLPita]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
St. Thomas Assembly Plant...in Ontario, where all the MM/GM/CV/TCs are built...

BTW, the TC (Town Car) is built in Wixom, MI along with the T-Bird and the LS. MM, GM, and the CV are the only ones built at St Thomas, Ontario plant.

[the fat bastid]

moonroofs became a reality...next an 05? thats just madness! whats next? gods head valve caps?!?!

if there is an 05 will it then have electronic throttle that was supposed to make it go away in the first place?

seems like a lot of effort for a 1 year thing (since there is redesign in the works anyways? the whole panther line is getting canned for the ford 500 line?)

[bugsys03]

the msrp will probably be in the 45k range-maybe more. thats twice what you can get an 03 for today. I dunno thats a lot of $$.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by the fat bastid

seems like a lot of effort for a 1 year thing (since there is redesign in the works anyways? the whole panther line is getting canned for the ford 500 line?)


Maybe it's a way to get rid of a lot of leftover parts? Maybe, as Mac mentioned a while back, the separate model designation for 2004+ will allow it to live beyond the regular Panther's demise? This might allow Ford to clear out any surplus of 4.6 4V DOHCs now that the 3V engines are supposed to be the ****z.

To be honest, at the time I didn't see a company that was hemorrhaging money (such as Ford) being able to do such a thing with a low volume specialty car as the Marauder, keeping it alive beyond the high volume model's lifespan. But what better way to clear out the inventory? Slap some 'old-tech' (ie. early 2000s) supercharger on the left-over 4.6 4V engines, throw the remainder of the heads with the faulty casting on them, ship them out on a model that's already recouped it's development cost...

If they sell 2000 such beasts, it's still 2000 less application-specific superchargers and 2000 less 4.6l 4V engines sitting in inventory.

[the fat bastid]

hey TTA, could you make that a little bit more depressing?

[TripleTransAm]

Depressing? I don't understand why that would be depressing... it would mean a viable economic reason for the continued existence of this car. I'm all for it. I've always said I wished the car would continue for 3 more years in its present physical form so I could trade up when the time came. Car companies are in the business of making money, not catering to my whims, so if there's a good economic reason for them to do so, then :up:

[TAF]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
I'm all for it. I've always said I wished the car would continue for 3 more years in its present physical form so I could trade up when the time came.

My thoughts exactly, /Steve. If a "new & improved" MM hits the market...I'm afraid ALL of us will take an even bigger "hit" to the intrinsic value of our cars.

I want it to go away with the '04. If it comes back in '07 in the form of a Marauder (or more appropriately in my mind) the SVT Blackhawk with 350 - 400 HP...then they'll get my money again. But NOT if it's the same size as an LS. But to come out in '05 with an SC'd version (for most likely the same or LESS money than the original sticker on the MM) would not bode well for most all of us.

My 2 cents.

[MapleLeafMerc]

Originally posted by TAF
But to come out in '05 with an SC'd version (for most likely the same or LESS money than the original sticker on the MM) would not bode well for most all of us.

My 2 cents.

My sediments exactly! Against a new S/C'd 2005 my 'gently used' ;) 2003 will be a bit like yesterday's scrambled eggs!

But I'll be drawn like a moth to a light...

[TripleTransAm]

Well, Todd, we're actually diverging in opinions on this. Here's my take on it.

Personally, I don't think the length of time the current Marauder is on the market (or its sales numbers) will affect our resale value much. The reality is that sales are so-so to begin with. This would indicate that there is a lack of interest in the vehicle. I know... we're all bona-fide Marauder lovers and might take great offense at that... but come on, it's been on all enthusiast shows and magazines and the 2003s were present in every showroom out there. Yes, it could have sold better with more marketing push, but by how much? The reality is that the car did not sell itself, by itself.

That being said, whether they sell 7000 or 700 copies of the 2003 model won't affect its resale value by much, if at all. There has to be a demand for the product, and this takes precedence over rarity. Example... not many 1986 Firebirds were equipped with the base 2.5l inline four, which brought about the standardization of the 2.8l V6 on the base model for 1987. Does that make the 1986 2.5l Firebirds any more valuable, due to rarity?

For a North American regular specialty model to begin appreciating somewhat (or rather, stop depreciating), it takes 20 years. This does not include the ultra-rare desirable stuff like the GN-Xs, etc. And for rarity (ie. oddball rarity or stuff not selling well when new) to beget appreciation, I think you need another 10-15 years.

So unless the current Marauder suddenly sees a huge surge in mainstream desirability or some sort of BIG marketing push and corresponding press coverage, it's just going to plod along, and whether it's around for 2 years or 4 years won't make a big difference in resale value for our early versions of this generation.

So, to clarify my comment, I do hope they make a 2005 and even more so hope they make a 2006. That would put it just about right to trade up from my current car to a newer model year on the same platform with (hopefully) the same styling (which I am deeply in love with). I intend to rack up the miles on this particular one I own, and would love to have a second chance a few years down the road (perhaps then I can afford to limit its mileage and usage to strictly nice summer days).

Now, if the later years include a supercharger, I'll be definitely interested in stepping up to the plate as long as it's in the 2005-2006 time frame. Any earlier, I can't afford to make the move. And yes, I agree my current Marauder will take a value hit against the more desirable S/C model, but by how much? If they don't really want one now, how much less can they want one after the S/C comes around?

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by the fat bastid

Seems like a lot of effort for a 1 year thing (since there is redesign in the works anyways? the whole panther line is getting canned for the ford 500 line?)

Redesign for 2006 yes. Replacement by the 500? doubtful. Yes some of the Panther haters on BON speculate that, but the 500 is more like the Taurus than the Panther. Unibody, FWD.

[bigslim]

The Panther platform is not being replaced by the Five Hundred. The Taurus is being replaced by the Five Hundred at one end and the Futura at the other. Ford has no plans to stop the full frame platform. The Frame plant at the Rouge invested big money for the Hydro-Form to make the frames for it. Fat Bastid, if you notice everyone is going back to rear wheel drive. Ford will not stop this platform, it will get improvements.

[TAF]

Frankly /Steve...I don't think there is a huge difference in our opinions. The reason why I stated in my post the "intrinsic value" was not specifically in regards to resale. I don't think that a car is ever an investment. It's always a depreciating asset. The only times an automobile can be an investment is in the TRUE specialty market like the types of vehicles at Barrett/Jackson. Right now...these cars are ONLY valueable to us. The folks here, who actually comprise a rather large portion of the very small segment of folks that purchased this car.

What I was trying to say is....my car holds some "value" with fellow enthusiats for the Marauder. It still has relatively low miles, it has been carefully modded and it is one of about 50 cars with a signature of Steve Babcock on it and I think the only one on the engine. That's it...someone here may want it someday. Not unlike there are folks here that still have '03 A stockers that I may want to get my hands on in a couple of years....or one of Dennis' cars....or Mac's to be able to own KB #1....or one of the Trilogy cars....Those cars interest me...and I'd think a few others around here.

BUT....

If all of a sudden a "new & improved" model arrives directly from Ford/Mercury with a factory S/C, factory moonroof, better paint, yada, yada, yada.....I (along with I suspect a LOT of other folks here) would be much more interested in that than anything that is in this community.

So....therefore, I would like for it to go away....and come back in 3-5 years. Then...I'm ready for the "new & improved" myself.

[TripleTransAm]

I totally understand your point of view, Todd.

Let me put it this way: if I was to put my car up for sale to get a 2004, what kind of interest would I get? It's a Canadian 300A, post decontented. What's it got going for it? Quickest bone stocker to date, possibly lighter than the pre-decontented models, but otherwise just another run of the mill 2003. Let's take a snapshot of the kind of demand that would arise.

Now, let's say a S/C'ed 2005 comes out. It sticks around until 2006, and I decide to put my car up for sale. I have a hard time believing I could get any LESS interest in it.

And I'm sorry to say that unless it's some sort of signature series model, a modified car is NOT going to get its money back. We've seen this happen on here several times and we won't get into specific names. And I can understand this... if I ever had to replace my MM for whatever reason (theft, accident, etc.), I'd opt for an unmodified car to be honest, and choose my mods from there on.

I gotta wonder... has the arrival of the improved 2004 models stifled the sales of left-over 2003 models in any way? If anything, things look pretty steady (if not improving) for the 2003s, due to the usual pricing issues. I think it's just that kind of car...

[89lxbill]

I have not heard anything about internals, but I would imagine it would be a low-cost cobra motor. Maybe not the H-beam rods, but beefier than the current 4V rods. Low compression, etc. I do not see Ford coming up with a whole new design for 1 year. So, I would have to say again a low buck Cobra variant.

[STAPrap]

Yes guys the MM will be available with the supercharger as an option.It's a go!
Will be a half year model.This is one of the reasons why we're supppose to be somewhat busier in production in 2004.
Merry Christmas to all you buffs and I think this website is great!
Cheers boys!

DD

[jgc61sr2002]

Steve - I agree with you about modified cars not getting a return on their MODS. IMO most people who Modded their cars did it for their own satisfaction and not to increase the value of their Marauder.

[2003Marauder]

STAPrap, any idea when the formal press release?
Do you think that they are going to announce at the Car Show on January 4th? Below is press release from Ford:

DEARBORN, Mich. – More than 80 new cars and concept vehicles will debut at the 2004 North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) in Detroit next month.
But Ford Motor Company is planning to stand out among them all.

This year, you'll see some of your favorite concept vehicles turned into production vehicles. With the launch of five new cars and a crossover in 2004, Ford is back in the car business in a major way. They're even calling this the "Year of the Car."

The all-new 2005 Mustang, Freestyle crossover, Five Hundred sedan, Ford GT supercar, Mercury Montego sedan and the updated 2005 Ford Focus will give Ford Motor Company the strongest and most competitive car lineup in its history.

It's all part of the company's product-led transformation.

Lincoln is poised to launch six all-new products in the next four years, while Mercury will introduce five new nameplates in the next two years. Significant new products are on the horizon and in the pipeline at Aston Martin and Land Rover, and Volvo is introducing its new S40 sedan and V50 sports wagon. Mazda also will shine in Detroit with its Mazda6 station wagon and five-door models on display, as well as the new Mazda3 subcompact car.

And as you would look forward to at any major international auto show, Ford Motor Company and its family of brands will unveil a few surprises in January at NAIAS, including several concept cars and trucks.

Stay tuned for news from the showroom floor beginning Jan. 4

[SergntMac]

I haven't paid much attention to this thread because I don't believe a 2005 Marauder, S/C or not, is going to happen. Our Marauder, as we drive it today, is over after the '04s have been sold off. The Marauder monicker may return in '07, and as boldly and bravely as it did in '03. But, we have what we own now, there will be no '05 Marauder as we know it.

However, there are a few strange Marauder-like things going on, lots of rumors and "supposin" whispers, and thanks to a connected friend in my Department's motor pool, I think I may have stumbled on an answer for this.

This is brainstorming y'all, lots of "IMHO," but with some substance. Something else, or something more to debate here, and as worthy of debate as everything else posted in this thread. That said, let's play "connect the dots," it may worth our time here.

Dot 1) For at least the past 10 years, Ford has dominated the police market, 80% of the police vehicles in use today, are FMC products.

Dot 2) Since the demise of Checker, and full sized Chevys, Ford has also dominated the taxi market, either directly with a new Taxi CVs, or,with retired CV/PIs. In major markets (larger metropolitan areas like the Windy, NYC, L. A., Miami, Denver and Dallas, and so on) a full size sedan makes sense, and money.

Where possible, new CV/Taxis are bought. Where budget restrained Taxi companies compete, they refresh the retired CV/PIs. It's a full sized-sedan-hungry taxi market. Both need full sized room, but both do not need full highway power.

Dot 3) We got brand new "hydroformed" full size frames, with lots of new features none of us have paid much attention to, like shocks mounted outboard and likewise stuff. We also got high performance engines/trannys/rear ends. Maybe we here don't (or didn't) agree with the "high performance delivered," but over any '02 CV/Taxi or CV/PI produced before us, we had them by the azz, bone stock.

Dot 4) '03 CV/Taxi didn't get any new power, but they got a 6 inch stretch, which benefits the rear passenger area of the cabin above all.

Dot 5) Us Marauder owners were enticed by the the promise of performance, and we bought in. We came to beat the ****z out of our engine, tranny, rear end, suspension, and we came to develop 12 second street machines.

Dot 6) The new '03 style 6" stretch Taxi owners beat the ****z out of trunk space, passenger egress, comfort, safety, even with a driver protective divder in place. Lackluster performance, but great MPG too.

Dot 7) The newly produced M79 frame number serves to side step Federal/State emissions/safety regs because it's a new car now. Governments at both levels have to wait a while before they can stamp "foul," "approved," or, "exempt." Lots of car can get sold in this pause for enforcement donchano.

Dot 9) We road test the performance side of a new concept.

Dot 10) Taxi companies road test the service side of a new concept.

Dot 11) Well, if you're not already here with me, I'll spell it out.

"Meet your new 2005 Crown Victoria Police Interceptor. (applause) It's got all the highway criminal catching power criminals fear. (applause) Our Intech 4 valve Dual Overhead Cam OHC Supercharged hemi-like engine produces 350 hot highway horsepower, no one (applause) will escape the speed limit ,(applause)again. Highway safety is our first concern (applause) the new design is anti-inflamatory (applause) but no one will get away (applause) from us (resounding applause) again, thank you...thank you...

Install any cage you wish my friends, any 350 pound plus "bubba" arrestees (applause) will fit through our new oversized rear doors (applause) just fine. Our new police frame not only adds improved crush zones to improve any rear-end collision reports, any "bubbas" that can can get on any airplane today, can get stuffed through your back doors (applause). Go get them you Tigers (applause), go ahead and stuff 'em back there, and still get 22 MPG while taken them back to your stationhouse (resounding applause).

You taxi drivers...Get all that excess baggage parked in the trunk, and your customer comfortable inside. Use our new "cabin lock" to keep them "in the house" until they pay up, or police arrive. You don't know what Customs missed or skipped, but if you keep all that in you trunk, you'll be okay. Trust us."


Any of y'all feel like a Lab rat?

I do.

As is the custom here, all this is just IMHO...

[RCSignals]

Well Mac, I guess we will see.
It may also be that Ford has decided they have recovered the Marauder development costs, there is interest in the Marauder after all, in this site, the Ennis event, and 2004 sales seem to be better than 2003.
Trilogy has a S/C developed that fits the Ford "pattern".
While the marauder has certainly been announced as dead past 2004, it is not beyond comprehension that a decision has been made to capitalise on the seeming new interest in the Marauder 2004, and to simply continue production through 2005. The S/C 2005.5 being a little taste of what might come for a 2007 Marauder.

As for the CVPI, a DOHC version was tested as an experimental version at the 2003 model Police vehicle trials, as well as modified SOHC version.

The SOHC version with higher HP showed up for 2004. It is conceivable that a DOHC CVPI will appear for 2005. (at least as an optional engine)
As for the extended version of the CV, when it debuted for the 2002 model year, Ford stated that if there was enough interest from Police Departments, they would consider building a "pursuit capable" version. Currently the extended CV is only available with a few Police options, and is not considers an "Interceptor"

[SergntMac]

I agree RC, anything is possible, and I do not suggest I am correct. I'm only reading the jungle drums with a fresh set of ears.

I'm just laying out some dots, "supposin" on my own that the Marauder as we know it, is only rear bumper cladding and two medailions away from being an '05 CV/PI, one with a lot of field testing under it's belt. If police departments are now using the Marauder in enforcement duties as we have recently read here, one should wonder if Ford's next step is towards a refined and refreshed CV/PI that can placate public concern for officer safety, and invite the police to reinvest in the CV/PI market. 80 percent of any market is a lot to lose, and a lot to fight for, yes?

[Agent M79]

Gee Mac, so are you saying your choice for the new color in the other poll/thread is black & white?

Do you think that the added expense for the 4V and the S/C would fit well in that 80% of the market you are talking about? Isn't that a very price sensitive market?

Aren't the places mentioned to have MM's as pursuit and interdiction vehicles getting the extra duckets from drug trafficking busts?

[SergntMac]

LOL, yes, I think black and white sounds like a neat color combo to some at Ford. We know they don't like red in their books. The path drug seized money has to follow takes about two years to come home, but it's a start. Some 911 funding is helping out though, and conservative budgets are getting some elbow room.

I don't see the 4V DOHC adding much cost overhead to the PI, if offered by itself, the last "state bid" schedule I read up on priced them around 20-22K, I think the 4V could be squeezed in nicely, perhaps cheaper than the new 3V, which still needs some long term abusing before trusting it to the police market. Now the supercharger, well, you have a point to debate.

How much would you expect Ford to discount such a vehicle, to get back on top? If you were Chief for a day, what would you pay for such a PI with a S/C DOHC?

[Agent M79]

Let's go from the standpoint that I have no idea what a real police cheif is responsible for. I, myself, have been creative with budgets before so I would put forward this scenario:

I would like to see my guys that need the kind of performance that an S/C'd car with brake and suspension mods to match could get them. If that meant changing in the budget dollars that bought me a fresh ride in for an oldest CV in the shed, I'd do it.

I doubt I'd have any reason to get anywhere as quick as my front line guys and if I did, I'd probably be a rider so I could keep "cheifing" and concentrating on the situation while someone else concentrated on driving.

So if letting go of my new $20,000 cruiser gets 4 cruisers with the $5,000 performance option I know my guys need and would use, then I am gonna make do with the '93 CV with 300,000 on the odo.

[MM4ME]

"So if letting go of my new $20,000 cruiser gets 4 cruisers with the $5,000 performance option I know my guys need and would use, then I am gonna make do with the '93 CV with 300,000 on the odo."


My chief of police drives a new Eddie Baurer Expedition. Cost alot more than the CVPI's the patrol cops drive. Actually, none of the staff with take home cars drive CVPI's.

[RCSignals]

Mac, I do agree, and won't be surprised if there is a DOHC 4v CVPI. I still think that engine may be an offered option though, with either the 2v or 3v as "standard"