No Compression - Terminal Diagnosis???

[USN_Lifer]

So this is the worst day ever!

I drove my MM home from work last week (drove fine), parked it in the garage, took a few days off from work, and then attempted to start it Monday morning...no luck. Sounded like nothing I've heard before...not like a dead battery or anything related. Finally broke down and had it towed to a local shop (not a dealer) to diagnose what was wrong. Just got the call that they think it's totally terminal. They said there was no compression in 6 of the cylinders and think the issue is in the heads, but said I might as well buy a new engine. I can't stomach 4k right now especially after Uncle Sam hit me hard. Can't think of anything else to do other than get a second opinion.

One thing the tech mentioned was there were several TSB's on related head issues. Somehow I missed the memo. I'm the original owner and have gingerly put all 86k miles on it. I'm in shock and disbelief. Someone please help.

[DEFYANT]

Exactly how did they come to this diagnosis?

[RF Overlord]

All of a sudden no compression in 6 cylinders?????? I would get a second or third opinion.

That would imply major catastrophic failure of both head gaskets at the same time, or both timing chain sets, or a cam failure on both heads...or a whole bunch of burnt valves...something doesn't sound right here.

[dmjarosz]

1 or maybe 2 cylinders going bad I could understand.. But 6 of 8, that doesnt pass the sniff test especially since you say you drove it home fine then it wouldnt start a few days later. Engines dont go bad just sitting in the garage.

Id do a compression check myself. Maybe the mechanic didnt have the comp tester tightened down properly, allowing air to blow by the seal??? I say that because I've made that stupid mistake before.

Can you elaborate on "Sounded like nothing I've heard before...not like a dead battery or anything related."?? Bad starter possibly? Bad ring gear?

[USN_Lifer]

Exactly how did they come to this diagnosis?

I'll have the full details tomorrow. The shop was getting ready to close and I wouldn't have made it there in time.

He said they did a compression check on all of the cylinders.

Going back to Monday's events, as I was trying to start the car with the hood up, I had my wife watching to see if anything looked "weird" as I was turning the key. She said the serpentine belt was turning...so if that's any clue then I would assume the engine is not froze up or that the timing chains were broke.

[USN_Lifer]

Can you elaborate on "Sounded like nothing I've heard before...not like a dead battery or anything related."?? Bad starter possibly? Bad ring gear?

Sure, it sounded like the engine wanted to crank at first...then heard a very quick exhaust "rumble" that last all of a second. At that point I knew something was immediately wrong, so I stopped cranking it over. Retried a few times and only heard what appeared to be the starter engaging and engine turning over without firing. There was no "clicking" sound of a dead battery, in fact I took the battery in to Auto Zone for them to test. They said it was totally fine, was 100% charged, and pushed out 12 volts. They suggested it was the starter so that's what I suggested to this shop as a starting point.

[MOTOWN]

definetly get a second opinion thats just beyond odd

[MM2004]

definetly get a second opinion thats just beyond odd

What^^He^^Said!

Keep us posted on this.

Mike.

[Baaad GN]

After reading USN's last comment I'd assume he's not a wrench man and really needs another person to look at the car before anything is done. 6 cylinders going bad sitting does not happen!

[USN_Lifer]

After reading USN's last comment I'd assume he's not a wrench man and really needs another person to look at the car before anything is done. 6 cylinders going bad sitting does not happen!

You are right! I used to work on my older Merc's back in the day but after 20 years of military service (and destruction to my back) it has prevented me from tearing into these types of problems anymore. I would love some advice if anyone has any. I'll admit a total lack of knowledge in this area which is what scares me in the first place about taking it to a shop.

[tbone]

It would slowly run worse and worse and become more noticably sluggish before giving out if the engine had poor compression and probably wouldn't even move by the time it got to 6 cylinders......

[Blackened300a]

You can crank the engine over and the belts will turn even with a snapped timing chain which is what I think your problem is. The cams aren't turning so different valves are open on different cylinders so if they are coming up with 6 dead cylinders, that would be the reason why. If you cranked it with a snapped timing chain, its likely you bent a few valves in the process.

[Mr. Man]

You can crank the engine over and the belts will turn even with a snapped timing chain which is what I think your problem is. The cams aren't turning so different valves are open on different cylinders so if they are coming up with 6 dead cylinders, that would be the reason why. If you cranked it with a snapped timing chain, its likely you bent a few valves in the process.
What would cause two timing chains to snap by just turning off the engine?

Could it be a bad fuel pump or some sort of fuse that gave up?

[massacre]

They said there was no compression in 6 of the cylinders and think the issue is in the heads,

You need to find out why this is ^^^^^

either cam timing is off, or you bent some valves.

Do you trust the shop?

[Motorhead350]

Fuel pump I am guessing.

[massacre]

6 cylinders going bad sitting does not happen!

If the hydraulic valve lash adjustors(lifters) bleed down from sitting a long time, until they pump up it could show these symptoms

[USN_Lifer]

Do you trust the shop?

Nope. They just opened a nice 6-bay facility in my neighborhood a few months ago. I don't have anything to base a reputation on prior to this. I just wanted to take it somewhere besides a dealership and they seemed like a good choice. Keep in mind I just moved to the area all the way from Chicago so it's like starting over again...and I don't know anyone yet that can really help.

My next move is to have it towed to my father's trustworthy mechanic 30 miles away. Hopefully that will happen tomorrow.

[FordNut]

I would certainly get a second opinion. If it actually has lost compression in that many cylinders, and as sudden as you describe, the only thing I can think of is a broken timing gear.

[justbob]

Ask the shop genius to check the crankshaft woodruff key. That would be my first move with your issues. You CAN NOT have bad compression from sitting.

Edit: These things take time, therefor cost money to diagnose. I am not aware of what you have worked out with them for diagnostics and fee's. Just hearing the engine alone not cranking normal and hearing it was just fine days before is why I would have checked into the timing first, followed by compression test.

[FordNut]

Is it stock? If it has underdrive pulleys I'd start looking there.

[USN_Lifer]

Is it stock? If it has underdrive pulleys I'd start looking there.

Bone stock!

[RacerX]

Ask the shop genius to check the crankshaft woodruff key. That would be my first move with your issues. You CAN NOT have bad compression from sitting.
That's what I was thinking. Yes, this would explain compression in two cylinders. Those valves are stuck on the compression stroke and exhaust as well as intake are closed. The others are in an open exhaust, intake or overlap stroke. Unfortuneately, you will have bent valves. This can be fixed without buying a new engine. You may actually have only bent 8 valves.

[Mr. Man]

If he were to get under the rear of the car and his wife turned the key to just before start would he be able to here the fuel pump cycle?

[CBT]

If he were to get under the rear of the car and his wife turned the key to just before start would he be able to here the fuel pump cycle?
You can hear that from 10 feet away.

[Mr. Man]

You can hear that from 10 feet away.
All I ever hear is the air compressor motor chirring away. Wasn't sure if the fuel pump was audible.:)

[Blackened300a]

That's what I was thinking. Yes, this would explain compression in two cylinders. Those valves are stuck on the compression stroke and exhaust as well as intake are closed. The others are in an open exhaust, intake or overlap stroke. Unfortuneately, you will have bent valves. This can be fixed without buying a new engine. You may actually have only bent 8 valves.

Yeah and the running mate cylinders have all 4 valves closed which is why he has compression on only 2 cylinders. Either way, the cams are not turning so crank woodruff key, timing chain, or the timing gear broke which threw the timing off and bent some valves. Hopefully the valves didn't score the pistons or the heads too bad. Then at that point it would be likely be cost effective to drop a used engine in rather then replacing parts with labor.

[USN_Lifer]

Update: Just stopped by the shop at lunch to pay for the diagnostic and towing fee. I was actually suprised that the fee was only $85 for the compression check...anyway here are the results of the compression test.

Cylinder 1 - 130
Cylinder 2 - 110
Cylinder 3 - 65
Cylinder 4 - 35
Cylinder 5 - 115
Cylinder 6 - 150
Cylinder 7 - 75
Cylinder 8 - 85

He also referred to the TSB 06-5-13 dated 3/20/06 regarding engine misfires. What he admitted was based on the TSB, it sounded easier and more economical to replace the engine than to do all the troubleshooting and required work on the heads/valves etc.

[Mr. Man]

Since you said you were new to the area I would take it to Ford and have them double check it. It just seems weird that you drove it home with I assume no issues and parked it and now all of a sudden your timing equipment spontaneously broke while your car was sitting in the garage. Maybe all the planets aligned just right and it did but I think before I spent lots of money on a new engine a second opinion would be worth the money. You said your dad lives in the area maybe he knows a good shop or dealer that could give you a second diagnosis:)

[RF Overlord]

Maybe all the planets aligned just right...

"The moon is in Uranus."

"Uranus has an aura."

Darrell Martinie, the Cosmic Muffin. RIP

[Hadamustang1]

Location: Indianapolis, IN
Age: 39

Somebody hook him up with you know who .. also lives in IN..

[Baaad GN]

That would be a smart move, issue would be to get car up to his house, a good 1 to 2 hours away.

[USN_Lifer]

It is now at the second shop (an actual Ford dealership)...more to follow tomorrow hopefully.

Thanks for the outpouring of support!

[SC Cheesehead]

It is now at the second shop (an actual Ford dealership)...more to follow tomorrow hopefully.

Thanks for the outpouring of support!

That's why we're here, bubba, one big happy Marauder family.:grouphug:

[USN_Lifer]

You guys are NOT going to believe this. After a few hours at Don Hinds Ford in Noblesville this morning, they found the problems...and it wasn't even close!

The PCV valve was stuck open allowing oil to flow into the air inlet and throttle body! So, they cleaned the plugs, replaced the PCV valve, cleaned the fuel system, replaced the air filter...and wala!!!! That's all she wrote! It purrs like a kitten now. All total the damage with towing was around $300. I can't believe it...but I want to say I feel blessed at the moment by the good Lord.

[MMBLUE]

You guys are NOT going to believe this. After a few hours at Don Hinds Ford in Noblesville this morning, they found the problems...and it wasn't even close!

The PCV valve was stuck open allowing oil to flow into the air inlet and throttle body! So, they cleaned the plugs, replaced the PCV valve, cleaned the fuel system, replaced the air filter...and wala!!!! That's all she wrote! It purrs like a kitten now. All total the damage with towing was around $300. I can't believe it...but I want to say I feel blessed at the moment by the good Lord.


WOW, never would've guested that one:awe:

[MOTOWN]

a true testament to 2nd opinions! glad everything worked out bud

[thathotrodlincn]

That's great!!! Been following your posts, with some trepidation, and glad your ordeal is over, without an engine replacement. Go and enjoy!!

[USN_Lifer]

Yeah that just confirms the importance of 2nd opinions. Although now I believe I have just found a trustworthy dealership to have my Marauder serviced when its required. I'm happy all around!

[Mr. Man]

Glad it all worked out. Just didn't make sense to me that all that timing equipment would spontaneously break while you were sleeping.

[Bradley G]

I have never even cleaned the pvc thanks for posting.
Glad to learn it was not something major!

[RacerX]

Sweet! That's great to hear!!! :beer:

[B.C. Bake]

WOW good job, I've been following this post also. Didn't reply because I was just thinking WTF is up with this, but I wouldn't have thought that?:confused: Now it's pedal to the floor, blow that carbon out..................:beer:

[justbob]

That's great news!! Sounds to me that the first shop didn't open the throttle blades when they did the compression test. I have seen numerous timing belt failures from just trying to start and skipping a tooth, but never a chain? With what we had to go on, that's why I figured the crank key?? Shows what internet guessing will getcha!

[CBT]

I have never even cleaned the pvc thanks for posting.
Glad to learn it was not something major!

You have never cleaned your polyvinyl chloride tube? Tsk tsk....

[Bradley G]

I didn't know I was supposed to.
I have checked the little pvc rattler and it still rattled when I shook it!
You have never cleaned your polyvinyl chloride tube? Tsk tsk....

[massacre]

Glad to hear it was a simple fix.

[Blackened300a]

Never expected something like that to cause that much of a issue. I would drive back to the first shop and ream them out for not knowing how to perform a compression test.

[Spectragod]

Never expected something like that to cause that much of a issue. I would drive back to the first shop and ream them out for not knowing how to perform a compression test.


+1, and a refund for their mis-diagnosis.

[RF Overlord]

That is really bizarre...I've NEVER heard of a PCV valve causing a no-start like that.

[RacerX]

That is really bizarre...I've NEVER heard of a PCV valve causing a no-start like that.
Right? Its not like it has a long tube down to the oil pan slurping up oil... :hmmm: Maybe a loose wire and he plugged it in and charged him $$$. At least it's running. I don't think we'll ever know what really happened...

[steve fox]

That is certainly good news. Are the compression test results valid? If so they seem to suggest a near term motor repair of some magnitude.

[fastblackmerc]

You guys are NOT going to believe this. After a few hours at Don Hinds Ford in Noblesville this morning, they found the problems...and it wasn't even close!

The PCV valve was stuck open allowing oil to flow into the air inlet and throttle body! So, they cleaned the plugs, replaced the PCV valve, cleaned the fuel system, replaced the air filter...and wala!!!! That's all she wrote! It purrs like a kitten now. All total the damage with towing was around $300. I can't believe it...but I want to say I feel blessed at the moment by the good Lord.

I'm glad it's fixed and wasn't a major repair.... but.... something doesn't make sense to me.

If the PCV stuck open and the car wasn't running (no vacuum), how did the oil get sucked into the air inlet and TB?

If the PCV stuck open while driving you'd have massive smoke billowing out the tail pipes if in fact it did suck enough oil into the intake.

Why clean the fuel system? The fuel system is pressurized so there is no way any oil could get into the fuel system.

Why replace the airfilter, unless your was dirty, since the airfilter is front of the TB?

Again, glad you got it fixed......

[USN_Lifer]

It sounded to me like it was a combination of things. With the PCV valve stuck open, oil was found inside the air inlet and throttle body.

If this makes sense to anyone, the repair receipt shows a possible code of "88769 Verified" followed by "Performed Self Test" and "P1000". Can anyone decode that?

Also, I belive the other clean up issues (i.e. fuel system and air filter) were just good PM.

Bottom line after driving it this weekend is that it runs better than it has in a LONG time!

[USN_Lifer]

Never expected something like that to cause that much of a issue. I would drive back to the first shop and ream them out for not knowing how to perform a compression test.

That's going to happen today!

[fastblackmerc]

It sounded to me like it was a combination of things. With the PCV valve stuck open, oil was found inside the air inlet and throttle body.

If this makes sense to anyone, the repair receipt shows a possible code of "88769 Verified" followed by "Performed Self Test" and "P1000". Can anyone decode that?

Also, I belive the other clean up issues (i.e. fuel system and air filter) were just good PM.

Bottom line after driving it this weekend is that it runs better than it has in a LONG time!

The "P1000" code is "drive cycle not complete".

I can't find any reference the the 88769 code.

[CBT]

The "P1000" code is "drive cycle not complete".

I can't find any reference the the 88769 code.

That's the 'loss of confidence in mechanic' code.

[RF Overlord]

I can't find any reference the the 88769 code.Me neither...there is no such OBD-II code.

[RacerX]

The "P1000" code is "drive cycle not complete".

I can't find any reference the the 88769 code.
PCM was cleared, battery unplugged. Not even worth mentioning really.
88769 is the mechanics designation code for that work order. The next one will be sucker# 88770... :D J/K!!!

BTW: