Gear whine?

[BlueFusion]

Hey guys,

I may not have a Marauder but I know a few of you had issues with gear whine and I want to know if that's what I am dealing with...

I made two driving videos. You can hear it distinctly above 15MPH and it varies with tire speed and not RPMs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX3lNOuWdDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFD9SJsC5xU

What's weird about this since installing these 3.55 gears in January, they never made a peep. Suddenly when I drove my car to work yesterday, it started making this noise. It makes this noise regardless of temperature. Did it right after starting up and on the highway for some time.

[fastblackmerc]

Have you check the fluid level in the rear end?

[bugsyc]

It's probably because you're driving sideways.. JOKE

[BlueFusion]

Haha it's the first time I used my phone for video I didn't think I had to hold it a certain way....but it makes sense now.

I have not checked the level. I did not see any fluid on the ground under my car. Ever. And I watched the guy fill it up and the quantity was just over the fill hole since it was still coming out a bit as he put the plug in.

I don't have a garage or set of jacks to get under it and check here on campus.

[ctrlraven]

I had my 4.10s, new diff installed several months ago then all of a sudden I got a lot of noise from the rear. Come to find out the pinion bearing was notched and pitted and so was another bearing.

Only way to know for sure is to have it taken apart and checked.

[BlueFusion]

If it is a bearing, would I be able to get by for another few hundred miles until I can rip it apart?

Did you ever find out why your bearings went bad suddenly?

I do drive the hell out of my boat, but I don't see why it should ruin these bearings. The 2 carrier bearings were only bearings replaced during the gear/trac-lok install. The pinion bearing and race was taken off of the original.

[ctrlraven]

Nope no clue why, could of just been faulty stuff from the start. I only drove about 5k miles since it was installed.

If you re-used the pinion bearing that is probably it then.

[BlueFusion]

I even told the guy to replace all bearings. I had the box of them right there but he said "oh no, factory parts are better." I'm sure if I took it back to him he'll just tell me "tough luck" and want another $350 to redo the job.

[fastblackmerc]

If it is a bearing, would I be able to get by for another few hundred miles until I can rip it apart?

Did you ever find out why your bearings went bad suddenly?

I do drive the hell out of my boat, but I don't see why it should ruin these bearings. The 2 carrier bearings were only bearings replaced during the gear/trac-lok install. The pinion bearing and race was taken off of the original.

For the price of new bearings... never reuse them. Like cltraven said I bet it's the reused pinion bearing.

Check the fluid first.

Hope it's not an extensive / expensive repair.

[burt ragio]

Had my 4:10 gears set on two different occations and the whine is back. I might just buy a book learn how to inspect & set the pinion depth. Tired of paying people that do poor quality work.

[fastblackmerc]

Had my 4:10 gears set on two different occations and the whine is back. I might just buy a book learn how to inspect & set the pinion depth. Tired of paying people that do poor quality work.

Correct... your installer needs to know what he's doing.

When I had my 4.10's swapped, the guy tried multiple times until he got the right pattern on the teeth. Been 65k+ trouble-free / noise-free miles since the install.

[BlueFusion]

My installer had done several of the CVN guys' cars and built many for himself for racing. And does many others. He knew what he was doing and since I had them I really wanted to use them but he just convinced me otherwise that the factory ones will continue to hold up...

I am going to fix it myself. Since I saw him do it I have a much better understanding of what to do now. How do I get the pinion out though? He used a hammer and pounded it out but he explained to not ever do this if you want to reuse the pinion.

[burt ragio]

Use a press.

[fastblackmerc]

Use a press.

+1... my installer used a press.

[BlueFusion]

I was able to crawl under the car today (but not lift it) to get the fill plug off. I can feel the gears full of fluid but unable to tell where the fluid level is. Also this was immediately after driving so the fluid may still need to settle a bit.

What I am wondering about is the plug magnet. How much wear is expected during the new gear break in because my magnet had about 1.5mm of very fine metal particles, a bit smaller than glitter you'd see on those annoying greeting cards. Is this normal for new gear break in or should I be concerned with a major failure of some sort?

I know, I know, I can't come to a conclusion until I get it in the air but I am unable to for atleast 3 weeks...

[WI Fordguy]

I did my own and it's not difficult to do but you do have to be very exact. I would guess that your installer said close enough and let it go. This isn't and old chevy rear end that you can set backlash by ear.

[RF Overlord]

The pinion bearing and race was taken off of the original.


If you re-used the pinion bearing that is probably it then.Agreed. The tech who installed my gears said pressing the bearing off the old pinion and onto the new one can damage it, so he recommended to always use new.

[BlueFusion]

Actually he was very precise. He used the dial gauge to set the backlash within the "new gear" specs (.009 if I remember correctly) using CNC machined shims he made, not the little flimsy ones that came with the rebuild kit. You could tell this wasn't his first time around the rear end of a Panther let alone a Ford 8.8". I'm not defending or attacking him. I'm just saying things as they are. I am still pissed at myself for letting him talk me out of replacing all of the bearings and Trac-Lok clutches (all of which which I had at the time). Shame on both of us.

[burt ragio]

If you have found metal particles I would bring it in and have someone inspect & reset the pinion depth. You do not want to incure any unnecessary additional expense.

[WI Fordguy]

Ahhh I wasn't clear that bearings had been reused. That will be the issue then. Hopefully you can make a deal with him to replace the bearings at some sort of discount. In theory when just installing new bearings the shims shouldn't change so it will be less tedious than the first time. Obviously want to check backlash when done however. Good luck

[GreekGod]

If it is a bearing, would I be able to get by for another few hundred miles until I can rip it apart?

Did you ever find out why your bearings went bad suddenly?

I do drive the hell out of my boat, but I don't see why it should ruin these bearings. The 2 carrier bearings were only bearings replaced during the gear/trac-lok install. The pinion bearing and race was taken off of the original.

I think you are screwed. You didn't say why it was worked on in the first place...did you have a failure, or was it just a ratio change?

There are 2 opposed "tapered roller" pinion bearings. The races are a press fit in the housing, and require a special driver to remove, which would make them junk (not reusable). Since you know you have contaminated gear oil, a "proper" repair requires a complete disassembly of the housing and a power wash. Yes, you can keep driving it. If it is the pinion bearings, I suspect the seal might start leaking, before the driveshaft starts having "run-out" and shakes the hell out of the whole driveline!

When I went to a Detroit Locker, 31 spline axles, and 4.11 gears, I removed the housing and pressure washed it on saw horses. There is a cast-in channel under the pinion that is very difficult to clean, even with a pressure washer.

[MM2004]

That noise is LOUD!

My wrench advised me to get new bearings/race prior to the 410 install in mine.

Hate saying this, but looking at a tear-down.

Good luck!

Mike.

[BlueFusion]

I finally borrowed a set of jack stands and a jack and lifted the axle. With a friend at the controls, I was able to get under and hear it a little better.

It definitely sounded like it was coming from the differential. I re-checked the gear oil and although it was once again right after driving it, the gear oil did not seem like it was right at the hole like someone mentioned it should be. But hard to tell since all I feel is the pinion gear teeth anyway. I had half a bottle of gear oil left and I gave it a good squirt and it came right back out of the fill hole so it must have been pretty close to full anyway.

I'm giving the guy a call now to see what he thinks and if I can get him to fix this. Although I am confident that I could do this procedure, I do not have the tools.

[MM2004]

I finally borrowed a set of jack stands and a jack and lifted the axle. With a friend at the controls, I was able to get under and hear it a little better.

It definitely sounded like it was coming from the differential. I re-checked the gear oil and although it was once again right after driving it, the gear oil did not seem like it was right at the hole like someone mentioned it should be. But hard to tell since all I feel is the pinion gear teeth anyway. I had half a bottle of gear oil left and I gave it a good squirt and it came right back out of the fill hole so it must have been pretty close to full anyway.

I'm giving the guy a call now to see what he thinks and if I can get him to fix this. Although I am confident that I could do this procedure, I do not have the tools.

I do not understand why your installer would not redo the gears/setup if found inadequate or improperly installed/setup?

There damn well should be a guarantee/warranty at the very least for his workmanship, and would like to think he drove it after the install and had a good listen while driving?

This is based solely on my experience with my install, and Brian driving my car easy for the first few miles while having a good listen.

Then, he launched it hard several times before heading back to the garage.

Afterwards, I myself had a helluva time driving it.

Three-thousand miles later, not so much as a peep.

Personally, I wouldn't ask, but tell him to go back through it, then drive it afterwards.

Just my .02

Good Luck!

Mike.

[BlueFusion]

I am going to his place tomorrow, unfortunately it's an hour drive away in each direction.

We did do a post-install drive under normal and hard acceleration. Never made a sound. For the past 3 months, it never made a sound. Only the day I originally posted this thread was there any sound. The sound started suddenly, not a gradual thing. The gears have less than 3,000 miles on them, still.

I believe his workmanship is good, but the recommendation to re-use old bearings when new Ford Racing ones were provided was not a wise decision. I am bringing the box full of bearings and seals and clutches with me. If he has to disassemble it all over, I'm replacing everything, including the clutches we opted to not replace the first time (installed a used Trac-Lok).

[fastblackmerc]

I am going to his place tomorrow, unfortunately it's an hour drive away in each direction.

We did do a post-install drive under normal and hard acceleration. Never made a sound. For the past 3 months, it never made a sound. Only the day I originally posted this thread was there any sound. The sound started suddenly, not a gradual thing. The gears have less than 3,000 miles on them, still.

I believe his workmanship is good, but the recommendation to re-use old bearings when new Ford Racing ones were provided was not a wise decision. I am bringing the box full of bearings and seals and clutches with me. If he has to disassemble it all over, I'm replacing everything, including the clutches we opted to not replace the first time (installed a used Trac-Lok).

Good luck. Let us know what you find out.

[BlueFusion]

He called and pushed it back until Friday... I'll let you know what happens then.

[GreekGod]

You didn't say why it was worked on in the first place...did you have a failure, or was it just a ratio change?

Since you know you have contaminated gear oil, a "proper" repair requires a complete disassembly of the housing and a power wash.

[BlueFusion]

It was a ratio and carrier change. No previous failures.

Why would the gear oil be contaminated? It has a magnet to pick up tiny metal pieces such as those normal wear pieces from gears breaking in.

[fastblackmerc]

It was a ratio and carrier change. No previous failures.

Why would the gear oil be contaminated? It has a magnet to pick up tiny metal pieces such as those normal wear pieces from gears breaking in.

The oil shouldn't be contaminated.

They did use new oil right?

[JimmyXR7]

It was a ratio and carrier change. No previous failures.

Why would the gear oil be contaminated? It has a magnet to pick up tiny metal pieces such as those normal wear pieces from gears breaking in.

What about friction plates contaminating the oil?
If a friction plate is bad it could be throwing friction particles into the oil and then onto the gear teeth.
Every time the car turns the friction plates slip and particles could fall from a bad plate.
However if the problem came suddenly, top suspect is the used bearings.
Jim

[GreekGod]

It was a ratio and carrier change. No previous failures.

Why would the gear oil be contaminated? It has a magnet to pick up tiny metal pieces such as those normal wear pieces from gears breaking in.

The excessive noise makes a bearing failure likely. There are no tiny metal pieces from gears "breaking in". The ring & pinion are lapped in during manufacture - mated in a precision process.

The proper adjustment of the gear pattern ensures tooth contact for minimum noise & maximum strength. When the oil is drained and the cover removed, you can easily detect any contamination.

The magnet will not capture all particles. Some will be in suspension and some will have fallen out of suspension. In a typical failure, there will be particles in the oil, the bottom of both tubes, in the bottom of the housing, and under the pinion.

I had a wheel bearing fail with no noise at all. The only indication was the seal leaking on the wheel.

[BlueFusion]

It was new oil used during installation + the friction modifier. Friction material is made to deteriorate off into the fluid over time/use, is it not?

Where are the tiny metal flakes coming if not from a gear break in of sorts? Gears have to wear, it's even in part of the inspection process of gear installation in the "wear pattern." The gears must wear a little bit since the specs of installation are not exact with those of the lapping machine.

[tbone]

It was new oil used during installation + the friction modifier. Friction material is made to deteriorate off into the fluid over time/use, is it not?

Where are the tiny metal flakes coming if not from a gear break in of sorts? Gears have to wear, it's even in part of the inspection process of gear installation in the "wear pattern." The gears must wear a little bit since the specs of installation are not exact with those of the lapping machine.

Did you have it looked at again?

[GreekGod]

...Where are the tiny metal flakes coming if not from a gear break in of sorts?...

A) From bearing failure

[BlueFusion]

FINALLY got a day to visit the guy in Milan, MI.

It was risky driving it an hour there and the noise definitely got worse by the time I got there from the heat @ 70MPH. By the time I got there, the backlash was sloppy due to the pinion running out, which is what caused the noise to get far worse by the time I got there.

The problem was a failed front pinion bearing race.
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/229318_10150184669126107_60521 1106_7056137_1408282_n.jpg

We replaced both pinion bearings and races, re-set the backlash with new shims, and rechecked the wear pattern. The wear pattern on the gears were perfect, too. Luckily no damage to the gears. And there is zero noise after the fix. He was reasonable with the price. He knew since he suggested to keep the original bearings that this is sort of like warranty work, so I have no complaints.