intake

[bugsyc]

Hey guys, can anyone state the advantages and cost of porting and polishing my intake manifold...Upper..Thanks in advance,your suggestions are highly regarded..bugsy c:help:

[RacerX]

Not really any. If you port the runner openings on the manifold, you need to port match the heads also. You can port match the upper plenum opening to a larger TB. That may only gain intial responsiveness though and not HP. If anything, you may gain a couple hp doing a straightforward p&p on everything without doing heads..

[na svt]

A ported intake (lower only) is worth anywhere from 5-10 rwhp throughout the entire rpm range. If you've ever cut one open you can see why porting will increase power everywhere.

There is nothing that can be done to the upper that will increase power.

The heads do not have to be ported/port matched to accomodate a ported intake. The reason is that the intake is the restriction to making power, not the heads. The heads in stock form by far out perform the stock intake. On any combo the intake must flow more than the heads, but in stock form the cobra/mach/marauder intakes cannot keep up with the heads.

Check ou the pics on my facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001680607574

Here's a good example of what a ported intake can provide on an engine with unported heads:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5945/comparisonportedandstoc.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/comparisonportedandstoc.jpg/)

[RacerX]

Todd, you're talking about porting the entire runner length though, correct? I'm thinking this is something he wanted to do on his own, which would mean just the runner mouth and exit at the intake gasket. Wouldn't the 5-10hp gain be with an extrude hone? I've been schooled again! :shake:

[fastblackmerc]

IMHO... the cost involved is not worth the minimal HP/TQ gains.

[musclemerc]

P&P or PSRI (10.5" runner length min) are well worth it, especially if you want to squeeze all the N/A power out of the engine, the extra umph getting of the line is worth it. Start checking out other modular forums and see what others are doing to make N/A power. Here is a link with some good N/A combo information:

All of them have a cam, intake setup other than stock to get their numbers

http://forums.corral.net/forums/svt-dohc/515518-official-4v-naturally-aspirated-hp-tq-list.html

[SC Cheesehead]

bugsy, What are you looking for as far as performance mods? Depending on your plans, there are a bunch of things you may wish to consider first before messing with the intake that will give you lots more bang for the buck.

[bugsyc]

Thanks for the responses..I'm a little confused,NA SVT shows gains with ported intake,others say not so...I liked that wrinkle black intake a member is selling..I thought if I bought it,I would have it P&P before putting it on...My goals are the most bang for the buck SAFELY...take off from stop more than top speed..It goes way fast top end now..

[na svt]

IMHO... the cost involved is not worth the minimal HP/TQ gains.
Some people charge a lot, other's not so much. However, what other mod will give you 5-10 throughout the entire rpm range? I think $500 for an average gain of 5-10rwhp is pretty good since I've seen people pay far more for a much less gain.



Todd, you're talking about porting the entire runner length though, correct? I'm thinking this is something he wanted to do on his own, which would mean just the runner mouth and exit at the intake gasket. Wouldn't the 5-10hp gain be with an extrude hone? I've been schooled again! :shake:
Yes, I'm talking about removing the bottom, opening up the runner inlets and feed holes, getting rid of the injector bump and cleaning up the runners.

[RacerX]

Todd knows more than most of us put together. You have to be specific though, that's why I asked if he's talking bout ported runners all the way through. Question is: How much are you willing to spend? Don't do a partial port, extrude hone or PSRI is the way to go. I think Todd even does porting if I remeber right.

[na svt]

Extrude honing worked on the 99 intakes that were very restrictive, but on mach intakes it will take out too much material at the runner exit, making it larger than the port entrance on the head.

I don't recommend a short runner (PSR) because it reduces torque and only provides gains above 6300rpm. Heavy, automatic trans cars need tq and mid range power, especially when they rarely go above 6000rpm.

[musclemerc]

I have been saying that about extrude honing for years, its good to hear someone else repeat the same thing.

Extrude honing removes too much material, its too bad they cant figure a way to control how much material can be removed through the process.

You can tell a good porter when they talk about reworking the FI bumps, Todds VERY modest when he describes his porting abilities. Bugsyc, go with your gut and let Todd do his porting magic, you wont be disappointed in the end.

[cougar9150]

My only question for Todd is how much to do a the lower and how much to finish the polishing I started on my spare upper along with open the TB ports.

I'm looking to get a lower ported prior to my Procharger install and would love to see how it is N/A first. I was thinking extrude hone but this is probably the 3rd or 4th place that mentions the runner exits. I would prefer not to have to port the heads to match.

[RacerX]

From Todd's info and other research on the lower plenum, the runner walls are thin and with the acid etched intakes and good casting to begin with, you need to p&p the mouths of the lower plenum and then p&p the runner bell mouths. Those can be reached by punching out the freeze plugs if you're not going in there to cut the runners to make a short runner.

[cougar9150]

From Todd's info and other research on the lower plenum, the runner walls are thin and with the acid etched intakes and good casting to begin with, you need to p&p the mouths of the lower plenum and then p&p the runner bell mouths. Those can be reached by punching out the freeze plugs if you're not going in there to cut the runners to make a short runner.

Just not comfortable trying to do the lower intake myself without a bit more comprehensive walk through. Kind of scared of screwing it up and ruining a perfectly good intake manifold. Plus I just don't think I would have the time or patience to do it myself.

I don't even know how many hours I already have on polishing of the upper but I already know I am at least half a work week in and am less than halfway done. Biggest issue is my compressor cannot keep up and I have to constantly stop to let it charge up the tank.

[RacerX]

Ahhhhh... I've found that having the right tools is key. I even have a second 33gal compressor because I had to drive to another state to get sears parts to rebuild the original compressor piston rings and gaskets. Not to mention, if I remember correctly, you're pretty anal (a good trait mind you) and you're probably spending too much time where you don't need to. ;)

[CBT]

Not to mention, if I remember correctly, you're pretty anal (a good trait mind you) and you're probably spending too much time where you don't need to.

Do I have to say it?

[cougar9150]

Ahhhhh... I've found that having the right tools is key. I even have a second 33gal compressor because I had to drive to another state to get sears parts to rebuild the original compressor piston rings and gaskets. Not to mention, if I remember correctly, you're pretty anal (a good trait mind you) and you're probably spending too much time where you don't need to. ;)

You are probably right about that, I have a habit of getting too exact at times but it's what I do. Being a manufacturing engineer I have a habit of grossly over analyzing everything and being super anal about procedures and specs. If I could carry a baseball bat at work and pound them into people I would.

I requested Todd as Friend on facebook and will pick his brain before completely writing off doing it myself. I would prefer to but I'll admit it I'm scared :o.

Been thinking of running 3-4" OD schedule 80 PVC pipes around the garage to give me a few more points to access the compressor and increase my storage volume. Maybe I should get of my ass and get this done one of these days since I have been planning it for 2-3 years now.


Do I have to say it?

No you don't but still made me lmao.

[musclemerc]

Trust me I also wanted to do my own P&P work but, without cutting the lower intake open there is alot of areas you just wont be able to get to with the tools.

I got a DEAL on a nice used intake, its going on this week so I will have new input on a P&P intake with 10-1/2" runners. I P&P my own upper and added a lil surprise in it for the future.

Its gonna be sooooo cool. :cool:

[Embassy]

Pic of my ported upper and lower intake, that was ported by FordNut.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/688463/fullsize/img_5034.jpg

More pics:
http://www.supermotors.net/registry/18556/66869

[na svt]

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/688463/fullsize/img_5034.jpg

If all he did was polish the top and open up the feed holes it can't be called a ported intake.

Here's the business end of a ported intake, if the runner entrances aren't opened up you'll see very little gain and the only way to open them up correctly is by removing the bottom. I remove as much material as possible and as you can see, I ground through the #4 cylinder port (top left). The runner xits are not finished on this intake but I had started taking material off the injector bump.
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4581/machlowerrunnerentrance.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/machlowerrunnerentrance.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Embassy]

If that's all that was done it can't be called a ported intake.

http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17584

"That is all hand-worked, and they popped the freeze plugs out of the bottom to access the bottom side of the plenum and runners. They also port matched the ports to intake manifold gaskets, so whenever I decide to have head work done, I just need to have the heads port matched to the gaskets and everything is good."

[na svt]

You can make the upper pretty by polishing it but it won't increase power one bit. I tend to do only those mods that increase power and shy away from those that don't, even though I could make a buck doing them.



"That is all hand-worked, and they popped the freeze plugs out of the bottom to access the bottom side of the plenum and runners. They also port matched the ports to intake manifold gaskets, so whenever I decide to have head work done, I just need to have the heads port matched to the gaskets and everything is good."
All intake porting is "hand-worked" and like I said, if the bottom isn't removed the ports cannot be worked to the fullest extent. I've done some porting thru the freeze plug holes (because people didn't want anyone to know their intake was ported) and the results were'nt nearly as good as those you get when removing the bottom. It's a very cheap way out IMO.


Ahhhhh... I've found that having the right tools is key. I even have a second 33gal compressor because I had to drive to another state to get sears parts to rebuild the original compressor piston rings and gaskets. Not to mention, if I remember correctly, you're pretty anal (a good trait mind you) and you're probably spending too much time where you don't need to. ;)
you will need a wide variety of tools to port an intake: carbide burrs, sanding rolls, arbors, etc.

[Embassy]

All intake porting is "hand-worked" and like I said, if the bottom isn't removed the ports cannot be worked to the fullest extent. I've done some porting thru the freeze plug holes (because people didn't want anyone to know their intake was ported) and the results were'nt nearly as good as those you get when removing the bottom. It's a very cheap way out IMO.

Not sure what you're trying to prove or disagree about but as FordNut had posted:

"..and they popped the freeze plugs out of the bottom to access the bottom side of the plenum and runners."

I am not trying to start an argument here. I am sure you do fine work. No need to flex any e-muscles. Just posting some info and showing a comparison pic of a ported vs. non-ported intake.

Carry on.

[RacerX]

you will need a wide variety of tools to port an intake: carbide burrs, sanding rolls, arbors, etc.
I have quite a collection and good ammount of experience now. :D
Not mine, but, VERY short runner (similar to yours without the epoxy):

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/579/PSRI_2a1.jpg
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/579/PSRIa1.jpg

[RacerX]

If all he did was polish the top and open up the feed holes it can't be called a ported intake.

^ I thought that was all that was done too. If you think about it logically, you have six holes at the top of the lower plenum that can deliver air to one runner opening at a time. Open up each runner bell mouth and you get air moving easier through each runner.

Embassy, I got caught up in it too. The pic you show in the side by side only looks like a polish. You can't see the lower, important porting, so it's easy enough to think it's just a polish.

[na svt]

I have quite a collection and good ammount of experience now. :D
Not mine, but, VERY short runner (similar to yours without the epoxy):


http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/579/PSRIa1.jpg
Sure looks pretty but it won't flow worth a damn without some sort of bells on those runners. It's proven that a cut pipe without a belled inlet flows about %20 less than one with a radiused inlet.

This is how a 5" runner intake should look, but I don't have the time to do all that welding.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9097/jlshortrunner.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/jlshortrunner.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[na svt]

If you think about it logically, you have six holes at the top of the lower plenum that can deliver air to one runner opening at a time. Open up each runner bell mouth and you get air moving easier through each runner.

Embassy, I got caught up in it too. The pic you show in the side by side only looks like a polish. You can't see the lower, important porting, so it's easy enough to think it's just a polish.

You are correct, the 6 feed holes flow 100% of the time while the 8 intake runners only demand air %12.5 of the time over 720 degrees rotation of the crank. The total cfm demand of all the runners is only 600 (cfm) while the 6 feed holes can flow far more than that over one minute. Also, the CFM flow of the feed holes far exceeds that of the throttle body.

You can leave the feed holes untouched and port the snot out of the runner entrances and get great gains. Conversely, open up the feed holes and leave the runners untouched and the power gain will be zero.



I got a DEAL on a nice used intake, its going on this week so I will have new input on a P&P intake with 10-1/2" runners. I P&P my own upper and added a lil surprise in it for the future.
I'm not a fan of a 10.5" runner on a heavy, automatic trans combo as it reduces mid range hp and tq. A well designed stock runner length intake will result in quicker ETs and better driveability.


I requested Todd as Friend on facebook and will pick his brain before completely writing off doing it myself. I would prefer to but I'll admit it I'm scared :o.
Pick away, I have no problem providing tips on how to port intakes.

[RacerX]

:D Very nice! I fully agree with you. The bells are old school and work. Air flow and water flow are very similar, they smooth the flow, help velocity, air/fuel mixing... All been around for a long time because they work! Not sure whose plenum that was!

[na svt]

:D Very nice! I fully agree with you. The bells are old school and work. Air flow and water flow are very similar, they smooth the flow, help velocity, air/fuel mixing... All been around for a long time because they work! Not sure whose plenum that was!
I've seen that intake before but can't remember where...maybe mod fords.

[cougar9150]

Actually after seeing some pics of it, I'm thinking it not that scary of an adventure.

I'm not looking to shorten the runners any just want to P&P it and leave it stock length. Where would I want to cut the bottom off at so as not to change the runner length?

Also I've been buying bits a couple at a time and already have a crap load of paddle wheels. Any good sites to pick up a good quality bit set for a decent price. Buying from my local shop will make me have to mortgage the house eventually.

You may regret that offer Todd as I am not afraid to ask questions. I'd rather be over informed than just jumping into it and screwing something up.

[RacerX]

Pop the freeze plugs out of the bottom and install new ones when you're done.
I have a Fastenal store in town which makes it easy.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0361778&ucst=t
I have a second with a longer shank.
I have to get another one of these, they're almost gone! :D
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1060/

[bugsyc]

great pictures...big difference in performance???

[RacerX]

I don't recommend a short runner (PSR) because it reduces torque and only provides gains above 6300rpm. Heavy, automatic trans cars need tq and mid range power, especially when they rarely go above 6000rpm.
Some of those pics are for cars that go above the 7,000+ rpm range. If you port, you need to cut the plenum or take out the freeze plugs to access the important parts, the bell mouth of the runners.

[na svt]

taking out the plugs does not give you enough room to shape the runners

before:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4302/dscf3637j.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/153/dscf3637j.jpg/)
After:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6356/73627431.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/73627431.jpg/)

[cougar9150]

taking out the plugs does not give you enough room to shape the runners

before:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4302/dscf3637j.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/153/dscf3637j.jpg/)
After:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6356/73627431.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/73627431.jpg/)

So you just pull the plugs out of the bottom first then cut around the lower diameter of the intake?

[na svt]

So you just pull the plugs out of the bottom first then cut around the lower diameter of the intake?
The plugs stay installed.

[musclemerc]

You dont need to remove the freezeplugs if your gonna get it cut. Just get it tig welded to put it back

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy182/musclemerc/0164.jpg

[cougar9150]

You dont need to remove the freezeplugs if your gonna get it cut. Just get it tig welded to put it back

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy182/musclemerc/0164.jpg

Gracias senoir, that gives me a good line on where I need to cut it at. Hoping I can use the giant bandsaw at my works machine shop to cut it open.

[na svt]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6149/dscf6060l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/146/dscf6060l.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[na svt]

Gracias senoir, that gives me a good line on where I need to cut it at. Hoping I can use the giant bandsaw at my works machine shop to cut it open.
There should be some pics on my facebook page showing where to cut also

[J.bo]

taking out the plugs does not give you enough room to shape the runners

before:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4302/dscf3637j.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/153/dscf3637j.jpg/)
After:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6356/73627431.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/73627431.jpg/)

What is the size of the new ported runner vs stock?

[na svt]

What is the size of the new ported runner vs stock?
At the inlet the difference is about 3/8", but because of the wall thickness rest of the runner it can only be opened 1/8" (or a little more). I quite often go through the port wall and have to weld the hole closed. I'll be opening up another intake soon, I'll take some measurements and post them.

If I had to say which intake mod is most important it would be the enlarging and shaping of the runner inlet. Second would be enlarging the runner exit area to match the gasket and also reducong the size of the injector bump. Lastly would be the porting of the feed holes.

[musclemerc]

Anyone looking to purchase a cut & tigged, P&P, stock runner length lower intake
shoot me a PM I found a DEAL.

[cougar9150]

At the inlet the difference is about 3/8", but because of the wall thickness rest of the runner it can only be opened 1/8" (or a little more). I quite often go through the port wall and have to weld the hole closed. I'll be opening up another intake soon, I'll take some measurements and post them.

If I had to say which intake mod is most important it would be the enlarging and shaping of the runner inlet. Second would be enlarging the runner exit area to match the gasket and also reducong the size of the injector bump. Lastly would be the porting of the feed holes.

If you gasket match the runner exit will I have to open the inlet ports on the head. I want to try to avoid going into the heads at all costs if possible.

I'll take a look at your facebook today, I'm starting my planning and purchasing of bits this weekend. I'm also going to pick up a couple new die grinders as I only have a standard one but I want the ones with an extended shank and 90° shank. Going to also start my garage project to get lines on the wall and add volume.

[na svt]

If you gasket match the runner exit will I have to open the inlet ports on the head. I want to try to avoid going into the heads at all costs if possible.

I'll take a look at your facebook today, I'm starting my planning and purchasing of bits this weekend. I'm also going to pick up a couple new die grinders as I only have a standard one but I want the ones with an extended shank and 90° shank. Going to also start my garage project to get lines on the wall and add volume.
I've had a 90deg grinder for 6 years and have never used it on heads or intakes.

You won't need to touch the heads.

[cougar9150]

I've had a 90deg grinder for 6 years and have never used it on heads or intakes.

You won't need to touch the heads.

Good to hear about the heads, had me worried there for a moment. Definitly do not want to even consider head work till I'm doing a built motor.

[musclemerc]

Reading this thread motivated me to get some work done on my Marauder.

I finally installed my stock runner length P&P intake, here are a few pics:

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy182/musclemerc/photoalbum148-1.jpg

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy182/musclemerc/photoalbum150-1.jpg


http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy182/musclemerc/photoalbum152-1.jpg

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy182/musclemerc/photoalbum154-1.jpg

:D

[J.bo]

She can move some air now. Let us now how she run.

[musclemerc]

Yeah, she should move some air, cool air at that. I'm ready for the weekend BABY!!!!

[LANDY]

Travis when are you dynoing that thing?

[MMBLUE]

Travis, nice to see that thing made it out of the attic and on the MM. Next will be dual cam swaps.:banana:

[musclemerc]

Well, Landy thats a good question. I got to get ready to do a cam swap first. And I'm doing it the hard way just to gather information, the first cam install will be in the next week or so and it will be a Dot-to-Dot install then I'm heading home to Ft. Lauderdale this Summer, while I'm there I will meet up with my old racing friends at Mustang Specialties in Pompano Beach. There I will get my dyno tune and it wont cost me $600.00 like most places. I'm gonna get a baseline with the cams @ Dot-to-Dot then my man Ronnie will work his majic and help me degree/advance them then we will do another dyno to get the final gains.

I LOVE to do it the hard way so my data cant be disputed by the Peanut Gallery

[MMBLUE]

I see also you joined the two water lines that used to heat the upper up to vaporize the oil from the PCV. Nice http://www.chicagosvt.com/forums/images/smilies/coolspot.gif

[musclemerc]

Shhhh...... I posted that info in the IAT thread.