how to achieve 400 hp/ 400 tq na ?

[Ktorres1]

Has anyone done this ? What I had in mine is once I'm financialy up on my feet perhaps a year from now a 5.3 boss rebuilt engine. What would I need to accompany this ? Any input guys

[SC Cheesehead]

Has anyone done this ? What I had in mine is once I'm financialy up on my feet perhaps a year from now a 5.3 boss rebuilt engine. What would I need to accompany this ? Any input guys

Gonna be real tough, I'd put that right up there with running 12's with an N/A car.

[musclemerc]

Psssstttt....
You wont make it with just the parts you mentioned:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69992

[RacerX]

It's all about breathing. With a 5.3, should be easy.
See:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68982

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71146

[SC Cheesehead]

350 rwhp is a good piece off 400.

Breathe deeper.... ;)

[Ktorres1]

What would be a good set of cams with street driveabilty ?

[RacerX]

I guess that is an important question! 400hp/tq at the crank or rear wheels??? Crank, easy!!!! ;) RWHP, get your wallet out!!!

[SC Cheesehead]

I guess that is an important question! 400hp/tq at the crank or rear wheels??? Crank, easy!!!! ;) RWHP, get your wallet out!!!

That's what I'm saying.

For the bucks you'd have to lay out, S/C would be a more viable option.

[LANDY]

I think he means crank HP.
On these little engines you will never get big power n/a.
The only way I would have an engine custom build It's if I'm putting more than 800hp VIA FI.

[SC Cheesehead]

I think he means crank HP.
On these little engines you will never get big power n/a.
The only way I would have an engine custom build It's if I'm putting more than 800hp VIA FI.

Yeah, if crank HP, 400 is do-able.

[Ktorres1]

Ok what about 370 HP / 370 tq at the wheels ?

[FordNut]

Gonna be real tough, I'd put that right up there with running 12's with an N/A car.

Me too.......

[Ktorres1]

also I'm in southwest florida so who would be a good shop to go to for rienhart,blowbyracing or gnome ? I need to start gathering all this info. thanks guys

[musclemerc]

Mustang Specialties in Pompano Beach, FL
1401 S Dixie Hwy W
Pompano Beach, FL 33060-8522
(954) 942-5202

ask to speak to Tim or Ronnie

[Ktorres1]

Do have a website ?

[J.bo]

Just how easy is it to get 400 at the crank? List the recipe.

[MM_BKK]

Since you want to go the expensive route (Read NA).
How about 444hp/380tq (crank) of NA power from only 5.0L?

Ford BOSS 302 5.0L crate engine (http://www.mustangheaven.com/2011/boss-302-5-0l-crate-motor-now-available-from-ford-racing-performance-parts/)

You can get way over 400rwhp/400rwtq EASILY at a lot less money than NA route by doing an Eaton swap.

[Ktorres1]

I kinda like the strengthen and durability out of a rebuilt motor

[MM_BKK]

I kinda like the strengthen and durability out of a rebuilt motor

That will depend on who rebuilt it. Who's to say a rebuilt motor has strength and durability? Do you know how many people have had to do over even when built by a "professional".

FYI - The BOSS 5.0L has forged pistons and rods. Those are the 2 main things that let go all the time with cast pieces.

[2,4shofast]

400 RWHP will be pretty hard to get with the stock displacement, 370 with some custom parts, cams a great tuner and at least 5.0L I dont think it would be that hard to get. I dont think the parts and trouble wouldn't be worth it however, charge it and call it a day. You would still have the driveability and would have to worry as much IMO. Difficult and time consuming would be a major factor if you as me, these engines respond vert well to boost... I understand it is the easy way out but it is aslo proven:cool:

[99SVT]

Don't forget about driveline losses, the loose conveter, auto, long driveshaft and tall, heavy tires/wheels are against you in getting good RWHP #'s.

For top end parts I'd look into getting a set of GT500 heads, custom cams and an FR500C intake manifold with some serious port work all around. 5.0L or more would be almost mandatory, as well.

http://www.streetcarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10 0967&stc=1&d=1233537854
http://www.streetcarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10 0970&stc=1&d=1233537854
http://www.streetcarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10 0971&stc=1&d=1233537854

[FordNut]

Look here, at the top of the list...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69992

This is a 5.0 big bore block with stroker crank for 5.3 L, all parts top notch, ported, good cams, headers, the works. Way over $10k invested in the engine. I might have been able to do a bit more with higher compression.

I've seen a lot of people talk about how to make more power than I was making, tell me my setup wasn't making as much as it should, make mention of how much more power they're going to make with their setup. Still waiting, show me...

My latest build is a Boss5.0 block with the stroker crank, built by Modular Performance in Novi, Michigan. Highly recommended engine builder.

[Ktorres1]

Don't forget about driveline losses, the loose conveter, auto, long driveshaft and tall, heavy tires/wheels are against you in getting good RWHP #'s.

For top end parts I'd look into getting a set of GT500 heads, custom cams and an FR500C intake manifold with some serious port work all around. 5.0L or more would be almost mandatory, as well.

http://www.streetcarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10 0967&stc=1&d=1233537854
http://www.streetcarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10 0970&stc=1&d=1233537854
http://www.streetcarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10 0971&stc=1&d=1233537854

This looks pricey ?

[Ktorres1]

Look here, at the top of the list...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69992

This is a 5.0 big bore block with stroker crank for 5.3 L, all parts top notch, ported, good cams, headers, the works. Way over $10k invested in the engine. I might have been able to do a bit more with higher compression.

I've seen a lot of people talk about how to make more power than I was making, tell me my setup wasn't making as much as it should, make mention of how much more power they're going to make with their setup. Still waiting, show me...

My latest build is a Boss5.0 block with the stroker crank, built by Modular Performance in Novi, Michigan. Highly recommended engine builder.

This is kind of what I had in mind. Total cost of your setup ? Also my car is creeping up on 80,000 miles and didn't think a super charger would help in terms of longevity.

[musclemerc]

It is, FR-500 dual runner intake.
Its a hybrid, bothe a short and long runner intake

Its a part of the FR-500 N/A kit that was something like $12,000 that came with everything, cams, heads, even exhaust, and mufflers

[SC Cheesehead]

Since you want to go the expensive route (Read NA).
How about 444hp/380tq (crank) of NA power from only 5.0L?

Ford BOSS 302 5.0L crate engine (http://www.mustangheaven.com/2011/boss-302-5-0l-crate-motor-now-available-from-ford-racing-performance-parts/)

You can get way over 400rwhp/400rwtq EASILY at a lot less money than NA route by doing an Eaton swap.

+1

420 to 450 rwhp for less than $5,000.




This is kind of what I had in mind. Total cost of your setup ? Also my car is creeping up on 80,000 miles and didn't think a super charger would help in terms of longevity.

I put on my Eaton at 64,000 miles, Zack has over 70,000 on his and is putting out 480+ at the rear wheels, several other S/C'd guys are at 100,000+ miles with no ill effects.

Heck, Dom flogged the h*** out of his Proharger motor and got, what, 150K on it before tearing it down.

Don't let a S/C on a stock 4.6L block scare you. Unless you go nuts on the timing or have problems with fuel, reliability is not an issue.

[CBT]

+1

420 to 450 rwhp for less than $5,000.





I put on my Eaton at 64,000 miles, Zack has over 70,000 on his and is putting out 480+ at the rear wheels, several other S/C'd guys are at 100,000+ miles with no ill effects.

Heck, Dom flogged the h*** out of his Proharger motor and got, what, 150K on it before tearing it down.

Don't let a S/C on a stock 4.6L block scare you. Unless you go nuts on the timing or have problems with fuel, reliability is not an issue.


Mine will have over 100,000 on it by the time I do mine. I'm pretty much gauranteeing it will explode, because I do not plan on taking it any eaiser, that's for damn sure. If it explodes it explodes, you only live once.

[Ktorres1]

I see... I don't like the idea of scrambling for baton swap parts so that leaves me thinking maybe a call to lidio for a boss stroker engine rebuilt or the pricey trilogy kit.

[Cheeseheadbob]

Please do not make the mistake of weighing the cost of something vs. its value. In any major expenditure, value should be the number one driver of the decision. I modded my car fairly extensively, and it was "pricey". But every mod I did was done with what I thought were the best parts, and the price was not really a factor. If your goal is to stand alone as the only N/A Marauder to get into the 12's, or put up 400/400 numbers, then that is a noble, but perhaps elusive endeavor. If you just want a "bat our of hell" fast car, condense your steps and go with a blower. I would suggest Trilogy, but there are other avenues to achieve the same objective. Enjoy the ride...:burnout:
or the pricey trilogy kit.

[John Nero]

Mustang Specialties in Pompano Beach, FL
1401 S Dixie Hwy W
Pompano Beach, FL 33060-8522
(954) 942-5202

ask to speak to Tim or Ronnie

this is the shop at built my motor and did my fuel system - good shop - very happy

[musclemerc]

I grew up with the engine builder that owns the machine side of Mustang Specialties. Ronnie Wilson learned from the best and was running 9~10sec Mustangs when he was in high school. I have yet to meet someone that has half of his mechanical and machining abilities.

[na svt]

Contact John Tymensky at Modular Performance, he's built more "over 400rwhp" n/a mod motors than anyone. They are also probably the most reliable engines at that power level. Getting over 400rwhp with a BB/stroker is very, very easy even with an auto trans.

bb/stroker
03/04 heads
11:1 compression
custom cams
stock intake (with a lot of work done to it)

[SC Cheesehead]

Contact John Tymensky at Modular Performance, he's built more "over 400rwhp" n/a mod motors than anyone. They are also probably the most reliable engines at that power level. Getting over 400rwhp with a BB/stroker is very, very easy even with an auto trans.

bb/stroker
03/04 heads
11:1 compression
custom cams
stock intake (with a lot of work done to it)

But I'll venture not very, very cheap... ;)

[na svt]

But I'll venture not very, very cheap... ;)
a big bore stroker is never cheap. One member here spent 10k on a bb/stroker with a well known company and made under 320rwhp. At least with John you know you'll make the power.

Me, well I would build one with a cast crank, ported stock heads, basic H beam rods, and an intake with some serious work. It could be built for around 6k total.

[SC Cheesehead]

a big bore stroker is never cheap. One member here spent 10k on a bb/stroker with a well known company and made under 320rwhp. At least with John you know you'll make the power.

Me, well I would build one with a cast crank, ported stock heads, basic H beam rods, and an intake with some serious work. It could be built for around 6k total.

And for $1,500 - $2,000 less you could do an Eaton swap and put out 420+, not sure I see the point of going through all the time, effort and $. :dunno:

[Joe Walsh]

The problem that you run into with the 400 RWHP N/A engine is that you must move up the powerband to higher revs.
This requires more aggressive cams that reduce low rpm torque in exchange for high rpm power.*
That is all well and good in a lighter, manual transmission Mustang,
but putting that same engine in a HEAVY automatic transmission Marauder will make it a real pig for daily driving.
Then you have to gear the hell out of it to get it to move off the line.....
Then you have to put in a higher stall convertor....

I wouldn't get too hung up on having the magic '400' RWHP in a N/A Marauder.
Mine runs plenty quick with "only" a 325 RWHP 5.0 BB.

If I could do it all over again....:hmmm:....I'd have spent my first $6,000 in mods on a Trilogy S/C kit and been really happy for a long time....:o

*As they say: "Nothings for free" with traditional cam technology.
Now if we had the Ti-VCT system like the new 5.0 Coyote....then we'd be talking about low end torque and high rpm horsepower!

[ctrlraven]

It would be so much easier if we could just put a 5.4 DOHC in as a starting point and mod from there.

[Ktorres1]

10 k is pretty steep. I was hoping more like $4,500 or so for a nice boss stroked light engine rebuilt even 350 HP/tq would make me satisfied !

[MM_BKK]

10 k is pretty steep. I was hoping more like $4,500 or so for a nice boss stroked light engine rebuilt even 350 HP/tq would make me satisfied !

If you can come up with another $1500, may be na svt can build you a BB/S that will make your original wish of 400rwhp/400rwtq. I hear it's very, very easy even with an auto trans!

[SC Cheesehead]

10 k is pretty steep. I was hoping more like $4,500 or so for a nice boss stroked light engine rebuilt even 350 HP/tq would make me satisfied !

$4,500 = Eaton swap = 420+ hp.

Whatcha waiting for? ;) -----> :D

[LANDY]

a big bore stroker is never cheap. One member here spent 10k on a bb/stroker with a well known company and made under 320rwhp. At least with John you know you'll make the power.

Me, well I would build one with a cast crank, ported stock heads, basic H beam rods, and an intake with some serious work. It could be built for around 6k total. what Joe Walsh said is on point. You can build the baddest n/a mod motor and stick it in a 4400 lbs car it will still be sluggish off the line. Mod motor are meant for one thing only: BOOST

[Ktorres1]

Lots to think about... I always thought building the motor would build the torque curve. I guess boast just doesn't give you thqt sense of accomplishment the building a motor thru and thru gives you.

[musclemerc]

I have been saying it for awhile, ITS A GOOD TIME TO BE N/A

Im very thankful to guys like Todd, Kelly, Nick McKinney, and a few others. They are leading the way for us guys that want to make decent power on a budget, on just motor alone.

Besides when I get tired of being N/A all my mods will still work great for my "on the cheap" Centri kits.

Comming Soon!!!!!

[na svt]

I would build an aluminum, cast crank stroker with 11:1 compression, cleaned up heads, custom cams, and ported intake. One could be built for around 4k (or less), make 350/350 and get a marauder at 12.5 in the quarter with the right gears and converter.

A eaton is a decent mod but it will eat a cast piston engine over time so money would have to be spent on a rebuild anyway.


The problem that you run into with the 400 RWHP N/A engine is that you must move up the powerband to higher revs.
This requires more aggressive cams that reduce low rpm torque in exchange for high rpm power.* That is all well and good in a lighter, manual transmission Mustang, but putting that same engine in a HEAVY automatic transmission Marauder will make it a real pig for daily driving. Then you have to gear the hell out of it to get it to move off the line..... Then you have to put in a higher stall convertor....

I agree with some of what you've said, however, you can build a 400rwhp mod motor that doesn't have to be spun above 7k to make power. It would also not require long duration cams that would reduce tq. Cams are the problem with mod motors, most have too much duration and a lobe center that is too wide, both combine to kill tq and midrange power.

All marauders need converters, not only n/a combos, and there isn't anything wrong with a higher stall as long it's a lock-up.

I think I would rather have a centri than a PD blower because they are easier on the drivetrain/engine, easier to launch, require less tire/suspension, and are cheaper.


Lots to think about... I always thought building the motor would build the torque curve. I guess boast just doesn't give you thqt sense of accomplishment the building a motor thru and thru gives you.
it will, add cubes thru stroking and/or boring and the engine will pick up a subtantial amount of tq and hp and you won't have to rev it any higher than a stock engine if the cams/intake are right for the combo. Just look at the power that can be made with a stock intake'd 5.4 (mach/marauder intake), 38rwhp and over 400ft lbs.


10 k is pretty steep. I was hoping more like $4,500 or so for a nice boss stroked light engine rebuilt even 350 HP/tq would make me satisfied !
that was one example, you can do it much cheaper if you only buy the parts you need and no extras that don't increase power.


what Joe Walsh said is on point. You can build the baddest n/a mod motor and stick it in a 4400 lbs car it will still be sluggish off the line. Mod motor are meant for one thing only: BOOST
with the right gears and converter it won't be slugish. 4.10s aren't enough gear, not even close. The first gear in the auto trans is way too high for a small cube, n/a engine in a tank of a car. A 4k stall and 4.30 gears with a 26" tall tire or 4.56s with a 28" tall tire will take care of the sluggishness.

[SGT_MERC]

Has anyone ran 4.56's with the 295/45-18's? What are the RPM's at highway speeds? I have been debating 4.56's for a while to replace my 4.10's.

[na svt]

2670rpm at 70mph, the same as 4.10s and a 26" tire. In a cobra I've run 4.56s with a 26" tire and still got 20mpg.

I wouldn't hesitate to run them with a tire diamater of 28"

[Joe Walsh]

what Joe Walsh said is on point. You can build the baddest n/a mod motor and stick it in a 4400 lbs car it will still be sluggish off the line. Mod motor are meant for one thing only: BOOST


All marauders need converters, not only n/a combos, and there isn't anything wrong with a higher stall as long it's a lock-up.

With the right gears and converter it won't be slugish. 4.10s aren't enough gear, not even close. The first gear in the auto trans is way too high for a small cube, n/a engine in a tank of a car. A 4k stall and 4.30 gears with a 26" tall tire or 4.56s with a 28" tall tire will take care of the sluggishness.

I agree, mine isn't sluggish at all.
I'm only running an Art Carr 3,000 rpm stall and OEM 3.55 gears and have turned a 1.795 60 foot time.
(With the 16" drag radials it was a 3.89 effective ratio)

If I stuffed 4.10s in I'm sure that my N/A Marauder would really pull a holeshot!

Driving in the city and in traffic is more annoying because of the higher rpm/more throttle required by the looser convertor.

[SC Cheesehead]

I would build an aluminum, cast crank stroker with 11:1 compression, cleaned up heads, custom cams, and ported intake. One could be built for around 4k (or less), make 350/350 and get a marauder at 12.5 in the quarter with the right gears and converter.

A eaton is a decent mod but it will eat a cast piston engine over time so money would have to be spent on a rebuild anyway.

1. A 350 hp Marauder is going to run mid 12's, and your going to spend less than $4K to do it? I eagerly await the results of this endeavor. ;)

2. Define "over time." Six years? Eight years? 100K, 200K? Also, you logic is a bit flawed. If you install an Eaton, you have the added power right now. If you do rebuild the engine at some point in the future, even to stock specs, you'll still have that increased power. Spend few more bucks to bulletproof the lower end, stick on a smaller upper pulley and you can make even more HP, IMO, most bang for the buck.

Spend $4k (bare minimum) for the 350/350 N/A motor in your example, you're still well under the starting point of the S/C mod, and at some point in time that motor will need to be rebuilt as well, if it's flogged hard.

[Joe Walsh]

Eaton's don't wreck 'cast' engines....bad tunes and detonation do.

[na svt]

Spend $4k (bare minimum) for the 350/350 N/A motor in your example, you're still well under the starting point of the S/C mod, and at some point in time that motor will need to be rebuilt as well, if it's flogged hard.
I understand that an n/a combo will always have less power, but some people like and want an n/a combo.


1. A 350 hp Marauder is going to run mid 12's, and your going to spend less than $4K to do it? I eagerly await the results of this endeavor. ;)
$4k on the engine alone, it will require the drivetrain and bolt-on mods like any other n/a combo.


Eaton's don't wreck 'cast' engines....bad tunes and detonation do.
That's true, but the additional power will breakdown the stock engine quicker than normal.

What does it cost for an Eaton swap or a trilogy kit?

[SC Cheesehead]

Eaton's don't wreck 'cast' engines....bad tunes and detonation do.


^^^^^^ True, that. ^^^^^

[LANDY]

I agree, mine isn't sluggish at all.
I'm only running an Art Carr 3,000 rpm stall and OEM 3.55 gears and have turned a 1.795 60 foot time.
(With the 16" drag radials it was a 3.89 effective ratio)

If I stuffed 4.10s in I'm sure that my N/A Marauder would really pull a holeshot!

Driving in the city and in traffic is more annoying because of the higher rpm/more throttle required by the looser convertor.
Off course the stall and gear will make the car holeshot quicker. But the point is to adapt to what the engine does best, at the end you will thank yourself and won't be disappointed with the $ per horsepower.
If it was a big cubic inch pushrod motor, ok bore and stroke the hell outa it and make big power with the least amount of money. But its not

[SC Cheesehead]

I understand that an n/a combo will always have less power, but some people like and want an n/a combo.


$4k on the engine alone, it will require the drivetrain and bolt-on mods like any other n/a combo.


That's true, but the additional power will breakdown the stock engine quicker than normal.

What does it cost for an Eaton swap or a trilogy kit?

My Eaton swap cost just under $4,000; parts, install, and dyno tune. 423 rwhp, 411 rwtq out the dooron a fairly conservative tune. I've put more into it since then for exhaust upgrades, but in turn, picked up another 27 hp and 38 ft lbs. of torque.

[DOOM]

600 shot! :nos:

[SC Cheesehead]

600 shot! :nos:


tick tock, tick tock...http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/basic/smileyvault-atomic.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

[FordNut]

If you can come up with another $1500, may be na svt can build you a BB/S that will make your original wish of 400rwhp/400rwtq. I hear it's very, very easy even with an auto trans!

Yep, just DO IT!!!




Kinda like N/A 12's on a stock long block.

[FordNut]

This is kind of what I had in mind. Total cost of your setup ? Also my car is creeping up on 80,000 miles and didn't think a super charger would help in terms of longevity.

Around $18k...

[99SVT]

This is kind of what I had in mind. Total cost of your setup ? Also my car is creeping up on 80,000 miles and didn't think a super charger would help in terms of longevity.

That's about the mileage I had on mine when I put the Trilogy kit on it, it's been running strong for 3 years now. It tore up a transmission before the engine to my surprise. Just don't get greedy with the boost and you'll be fine.

An NA build would be fine to do, but it can get just as expensive as the blower route.

[SC Cheesehead]

That's about the mileage I had on mine when I put the Trilogy kit on it, it's been running strong for 3 years now. It tore up a transmission before the engine to my surprise. Just don't get greedy with the boost and you'll be fine.

An NA build would be fine to do, but it can get just as expensive as the blower route.


More expensive than the SC route if you're trying to squeeze every last horse out of the engine.

Hat's off to all the guys doing max mods to N/A motors, worthy challenge, I've gone the "other" route and am real pleased with results for the money spent.

[na svt]

nevermid...

[na svt]

the easiest way to 370/370 is with a 100 shot of n2o.

[SC Cheesehead]

the easiest way to 370/370 is with a 100 shot of n2o.

True, that. And depending on performance objectives, may well be the best way to go. Fairly inexpensive, too.

[steve fox]

I too was unimpressed with my stock 04 SB MM performance especially after reading the tales on these pages. Several tunes, first from Dennis then Lidio revealed the smooth accceleration and quick response the MM was capable of. Research quickly narrowed the choices for ultimate performance improvement to a new motoer or a S/C. Price and performance sent me to Jerry Barnes at Trilogy Motorsports. Lidio installed the unit in 2 days. The standard pulley, 8lbs boost and conservative tune produced a perfectly driveable MM with 350/350 at the rear wheels. This combo eats tires if desired but can also achieve 20mpg if driven at freeway speed.
I also have a bone stock 04 DTR with 15k. It is lovely to look at but no fun to drive by comparison.
Looking at the current crop of new fast cars, including the Cadillac CTSV and even the Ford ecoboost, all are forced induction. The experience of the guys here as well as my own confirms the viability of S/C on the 4.6. Plus you get the unmistakeable whine which indicates to the discerning ear that this is not grandma's car!
Best wishes, let us know how it comes out.

[SC Cheesehead]

I too was unimpressed with my stock 04 SB MM performance especially after reading the tales on these pages. Several tunes, first from Dennis then Lidio revealed the smooth accceleration and quick response the MM was capable of. Research quickly narrowed the choices for ultimate performance improvement to a new motoer or a S/C. Price and performance sent me to Jerry Barnes at Trilogy Motorsports. Lidio installed the unit in 2 days. The standard pulley, 8lbs boost and conservative tune produced a perfectly driveable MM with 350/350 at the rear wheels. This combo eats tires if desired but can also achieve 20mpg if driven at freeway speed.
I also have a bone stock 04 DTR with 15k. It is lovely to look at but no fun to drive by comparison.
Looking at the current crop of new fast cars, including the Cadillac CTSV and even the Ford ecoboost, all are forced induction. The experience of the guys here as well as my own confirms the viability of S/C on the 4.6. Plus you get the unmistakeable whine which indicates to the discerning ear that this is not grandma's car!
Best wishes, let us know how it comes out.

You betcha! :D It's great to turn a few heads when you mash the gas pedal.

Had an '03 Cobra roll up next to me on one of our local throughfares last week, he goosed it a little, and I responded; enough to get up into boost range. When we got to the next stop light, he motioned for me to roll down my window, asked me "you got that thing supercharged, sure sounds that way." Gotta love it!