Help - New engine noise!

[Meteorite]

Does this sound like rod knock to you?

This is on my wife's car, with approximately 90,000 miles on it.

If not rod knock, what else might it be?

CUgO9W_e6w4

[jstevens]

I'm not very good at this but I was thinking loose lifter.

[BAD MERC]

Taking the pan off answers a lot of questions.

[boatmangc]

That is NOT a happy noise...

[Meteorite]

To describe the noise a bit better:

There is a loud clatter (lasts one or two seconds) upon starting up. Then, it quiets down when idling in Park. It gets bad if you let it idle in Reverse or Drive. Driving down the block (at, say, 25 mph), I don't hear it.

So ... I am wondering if it could be loose torque converter bolts? That would explain why it is worst when idling, because the transient engine torque at idle has a small DC component, and is almost entirely AC (i.e., goes back and forth, which would slam the torque converter nuts into the end stops on the flex plate. But when driving under torque, it keeps loaded up on one side. It seems to me that rod knock would be worse while driving.

After church today, I hope to take a peek at those bolts and see if they've come loose.

[Chevyguy]

Gotta be a roller follower, the noise is not regular.

Broken valvespring, stuck valve, dislodged valve seat etc..

Torque converter bolts easy enough to check, and they do make a sound like the engine is dying.

[69marquis conv]

Do our engines have hydraulic tensioners? If so maybe you have a tensioner that won't hold pressure to stay taught.

[BIGSHUNN]

Man! I have the same noise from my MM. Two years ago it started just like yours. I stop drive the car. Just start it up to warm it up. Knocking got loud. After it warm up the oil pressure drop. I just want to do a new motor now.

[RacerX]

Get a long screwdriver to put on the valve cover bolts and listen to the differences in sound from cylinder to cylinder. If you can, get the car up on a lift with the engine running and put your ear (with screwdriver) to the bottom of the block all over, bell housing, etc. Listen until you're sure where it's coming from, top end, bottom end, which cylinder and when you're sure where it is, listen around for another ten minutes.

[BIGSHUNN]

Yes! I did that! The knocking sounds like that on both valve covers

[TAKEDOWN]

Maybe a timing chain slap due to broken or worn out tension guides?!

[Meteorite]

Get a long screwdriver to put on the valve cover bolts and listen to the differences in sound from cylinder to cylinder. If you can, get the car up on a lift with the engine running and put your ear (with screwdriver) to the bottom of the block all over, bell housing, etc. Listen until you're sure where it's coming from, top end, bottom end, which cylinder and when you're sure where it is, listen around for another ten minutes.

I got out my old mechanic's stethoscope, and did just as you suggested here.

It is NOT the torque converter bolts. It is not anything in the bottom end. Where it is really loud is on the driver's side cam cover, at the top, just below the valve cover.

On the exhaust manfold, the further back I go, the weaker it is. On the cam cover itself, the further down I go, the softer it is.

So, it is something in the cam drive, I'm pretty sure. Could be a tensioner, I guess.

[babbage]

Where it is really loud is on the driver's side cam cover, at the top, just below the valve cover.

Is this near the firewall on the drivers side? Think its cyl 8.

[Meteorite]

Is this near the firewall on the drivers side? Think its cyl 8.

No, it's quiet on the firewall end. The cam cover is on the front of the engine.

[F8LBITEva]

hopefully its just timing tensioner guides slapping around. Youll need tensioners, guides, both new chains and timing cover gaskets. Less than $500 in parts.

[RacerX]

Actually, chains can most likely be reused as well as timing cover gaskets (done it, just be careful taking them out) all four chain guides are about $70 total from Rockauto, (look under 03/04 Mach 1 though) and a main seal is about $12 from Rock. Oh yeah, and a tube of The Right Stuff rtv for $9.

[Meteorite]

So, I nursed the car over to the dealership early this morning.

They keep it for 9 hours. I get a call from the Service Manager, telling me:

The technician revved it up to 1800 RPM, at which point it locked up and squealed the belt. He determined that it is a bottom end problem. You'll need to replace the engine.

Morons. The bottom end was dead quiet on the stethoscope yesterday. I am having it towed home by AAA, and I will never go to that dealership again.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[jstevens]

What dealership are we discussing?

[RF Overlord]

No, it's quiet on the firewall end. The cam cover is on the front of the engine.You mean the timing chain cover?

[Meteorite]

What dealership are we discussing?

North Brothers.


You mean the timing chain cover?

Yes, timing chain cover.

[Meteorite]

I am now in the market for a Marauder engine.

I will post in the Classifieds as well, but if you know of one for sale, especially if it is close to metro Detroit, please let me know.

[Blackened300a]

My Mark 8 made that same noise after sitting for over a year not running. We put fresh oil in and let is warm up for a little while and it went away. The cause was the tensioner not pumping up which slacked the chain and made the same noise cause it was slapping around in the front cover.
The dummies at the dealership revved it up which likely made it jump a tooth and probably bent some valves. No doubt they wanted to put a new engine in it so instead of doing some tests, they decided to let it blow.

[Meteorite]

My Mark 8 made that same noise after sitting for over a year not running. We put fresh oil in and let is warm up for a little while and it went away. The cause was the tensioner not pumping up which caused the chain to be slacked and made the same nose cause it was slapping around in the front cover.
The dummies at the dealership revved it up which likely made it jump a tooth and probably bent some valves. No doubt they wanted to put a new engine in it so instead of doing some tests, they decided to let it blow.

Exactly what I am thinking.

[Blackened300a]

I am now in the market for a Marauder engine.

I will post in the Classifieds as well, but if you know of one for sale, especially if it is close to metro Detroit, please let me know.

A member "wickedmerc" Doug picked up a engine from here...
http://www.discountbodyparts.com/catalog/?ymmsearch=true&Ntt=2003+Mercury+Marauder+Engi ne+Long+Block&dbpid=shopping

The price is very reasonable and its running strong. I personally seem it run and it idles smooth as glass.

[babbage]

My Mark 8 made that same noise after sitting for over a year not running. We put fresh oil in and let is warm up for a little while and it went away. The cause was the tensioner not pumping up which slacked the chain and made the same noise cause it was slapping around in the front cover.
The dummies at the dealership revved it up which likely made it jump a tooth and probably bent some valves. No doubt they wanted to put a new engine in it so instead of doing some tests, they decided to let it blow.


Wow that is so bad. I agree on the tooth skip and bent valves theory. So bad. It's like going to the hospital for a heart attack and they decide to put you on the runner and give you a stress test.

[wickedmerc]

A member "wickedmerc" Doug picked up a engine from here...
http://www.discountbodyparts.com/catalog/?ymmsearch=true&Ntt=2003+Mercury+Marauder+Engi ne+Long+Block&dbpid=shopping

The price is very reasonable and its running strong. I personally seem it run and it idles smooth as glass.

I still can't believe how much $$ I didn't spend on swapping my motor! It's a reman MM motor and it runs as strong, if not stronger, than my original motor. Discount Body Parts was easy to deal with and very responsive. The trick for me was finding a good shop to do the swap. [Again, mucho props to our Main MM Man...Blackened300a (Paul)!! Found the motor and lined-up a great shop for me.]
Good luck!

[Meteorite]

A member "wickedmerc" Doug picked up a engine from here...
http://www.discountbodyparts.com/catalog/?ymmsearch=true&Ntt=2003+Mercury+Marauder+Engi ne+Long+Block&dbpid=shopping

The price is very reasonable and its running strong. I personally seem it run and it idles smooth as glass.

Thanks again! I ordered an engine from them this morning. I should have it in perhaps 3 weeks.


Wow that is so bad. I agree on the tooth skip and bent valves theory. So bad. It's like going to the hospital for a heart attack and they decide to put you on the runner and give you a stress test.

Precisely. I wonder what my chances would be, taking them to court. I'm guessing not that great. It would be the word of a shade-tree mechanic (me) against of a (supposedly) professional mechanic.


I still can't believe how much $$ I didn't spend on swapping my motor! It's a reman MM motor and it runs as strong, if not stronger, than my original motor. Discount Body Parts was easy to deal with and very responsive. The trick for me was finding a good shop to do the swap. [Again, mucho props to our Main MM Man...Blackened300a (Paul)!! Found the motor and lined-up a great shop for me.]
Good luck!

Thanks for this very valuable feedback. I ordered a motor this morning from Discount Body Parts. I will be doing the swap myself, with my son's help.

[RacerX]

That's a darn good deal for what they do to it. Those get more attention than the ones coming off the assembly line. :beer:

[BIGSHUNN]

So, I nursed the car over to the dealership early this morning.

They keep it for 9 hours. I get a call from the Service Manager, telling me:

The technician revved it up to 1800 RPM, at which point it locked up and squealed the belt. He determined that it is a bottom end problem. You'll need to replace the engine.

Morons. The bottom end was dead quiet on the stethoscope yesterday. I am having it towed home by AAA, and I will never go to that dealership again.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

That's the samething that happen to me! That's why I haven't done anything to mine. But I got a letter from the dealship want to buy my MM.

[Got_1]

A member "wickedmerc" Doug picked up a engine from here...
http://www.discountbodyparts.com/catalog/?ymmsearch=true&Ntt=2003+Mercury+Marauder+Engi ne+Long+Block&dbpid=shopping

The price is very reasonable and its running strong. I personally seem it run and it idles smooth as glass.

holy crap that is cheap! i've been looking for options to replace my knocking engine and it looks like i've found a winner. i just wonder how bad i'll get ***** on shipping.

[RacerX]

I had a shortblock shipped from CA to NH for about $350. That included liftgate and ride into my driveway...

[wickedmerc]

holy crap that is cheap! i've been looking for options to replace my knocking engine and it looks like i've found a winner. i just wonder how bad i'll get ***** on shipping.

The motor came out of Texas (name of engine builder - AER). I had it shipped to a shop in Astoria, NY (Queens, directly next to LaGuardia Airport). They charged me $101.31 shipping and $24.31 handling. I think they add a charge if you need a truck with a liftgate to deliver to a residence or somewhere they'd need to put it on the ground. If you go to the site and put the motor in your cart, I think they show how much shipping charges are right there.

Now for the core return, I haven't been billed for any shipping charges so I'll say it was free. I got $549 for my core. Big selling point for me was the warranty.

[Got_1]

well it looks like they don't ship to canada. bummer.

[Blackened300a]

well it looks like they don't ship to canada. bummer.

Maybe a deal could be worked out where its shipped here to NY, and then arrange a pickup by the carrier of your choice to send to Canada.
Ill help you out with that.

[Got_1]

Maybe a deal could be worked out where its shipped here to NY, and then arrange a pickup by the carrier of your choice to send to Canada.
Ill help you out with that.

Wow, thanks man. I will definitly keep that in mind when i'm ready to pull the trigger. :beer:

[Chevyguy]

Thanks again! I ordered an engine from them this morning. I should have it in perhaps 3 weeks.



Precisely. I wonder what my chances would be, taking them to court. I'm guessing not that great. It would be the word of a shade-tree mechanic (me) against of a (supposedly) professional mechanic.



Thanks for this very valuable feedback. I ordered a motor this morning from Discount Body Parts. I will be doing the swap myself, with my son's help.

They should have just pulled the cam covers and the front cover and the problem would have been Obvious. Why did they insist on revving the engine up??

[4play]

because thats what all good techs do. and it was probably more like 4000rpm not 1800.

[boatmangc]

They should have just pulled the cam covers and the front cover and the problem would have been Obvious. Why did they insist on revving the engine up??

The classic RPM tuneup. Gotta love it.
:mad2:

[Blackened300a]

The classic RPM tuneup. Gotta love it.
:mad2:

The techs in all their wisdom figured the engine is shot anyway so let's watch it blow for our entertainment. :shake:

All that for a inexpensive part that could be replaced in a few hours.
Im sure you'll be happy with the new engine.

[Meteorite]

They should have just pulled the cam covers and the front cover and the problem would have been Obvious. Why did they insist on revving the engine up??

I know, right?


because thats what all good techs do. and it was probably more like 4000rpm not 1800.

When I went to talk to the mechanic in person, he changed his story again. Now, he says it locked up while idling. Right.


The techs in all their wisdom figured the engine is shot anyway so let's watch it blow for our entertainment. :shake:

All that for a inexpensive part that could be replaced in a few hours.
Im sure you'll be happy with the new engine.

It is supposed to arrive today! I had to scramble to make room for it in the garage; the guy I spoke to on the phone said it would be shipped in 15 to 22 days. More like: On my doorstep 3 days later. :eek:

[Blackened300a]

It is supposed to arrive today! I had to scramble to make room for it in the garage; the guy I spoke to on the phone said it would be shipped in 15 to 22 days. More like: On my doorstep 3 days later. :eek:

I did all kinds of searches for engines when I wanted to help out Doug. There were great reviews on this company and their engines.
Once again they didn't disappoint. :beer:

[Meteorite]

The rebuilt engine has arrived (see attached pics), and I have made a few videos of the beginning of the diagnosis process.

Most of the teardown will not happen to the old engine until the rebuilt engine is installed and running.

o_L0HW5CAR4

tFTjXXB--Mk

[wickedmerc]

I like the videos. New motor looks good. It's not impossible that that's my old motor, rebuilt. Wish I had any #'s off that motor.

subscribed!! :popcorn:

[Blackened300a]

I like the videos. New motor looks good. It's not impossible that that's my old motor, rebuilt. Wish I had any #'s off that motor.

subscribed!! :popcorn:

Its very possible.
Im liking the videos as well, Subcribed! Im looking forward to the tear down.

[Meteorite]

I like the videos. New motor looks good. It's not impossible that that's my old motor, rebuilt. Wish I had any #'s off that motor.

subscribed!! :popcorn:

I'll see if I can find some ID numbers on the motor.

[wickedmerc]

I'll see if I can find some ID numbers on the motor.

Oh, sorry man. What I meant was that I wish I had taken some numbers off of my old motor before I sent it back. I did not, so don't go crazy getting info off of your new one. Thanks anyway!

[Meteorite]

Oh, sorry man. What I meant was that I wish I had taken some numbers off of my old motor before I sent it back. I did not, so don't go crazy getting info off of your new one. Thanks anyway!

Oh, okay; thanks for clarifying!

[Meteorite]

Here are some photos and a video of today's engine extraction. Man, there sure are a lot of things to disconnect before pulling this motor! It ain't like working on the sixties cars I'm used to.

[Meteorite]

More pics and a video:

s1-xBuWzhDA

[Chevyguy]

Protip, if you disconnect the strut rods from the hood hinges, the hood lays back out of the way without removing it.

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q329/folingo/1996%20Town%20Car%20Signature/Engine%20Swap/SL372334.jpg

On my Lincoln I had to remove the bumper first not as big of a deal as it looks

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q329/folingo/1996%20Town%20Car%20Signature/Engine%20Swap/SL372335.jpg

[JoeBoomz]

Great job, I LOVE the pics! How much time for the pull?

[Meteorite]

Protip, if you disconnect the strut rods from the hood hinges, the hood lays back out of the way without removing it.

I wish I had done it that way. I had seen one other pic of someone pulling a Marauder engine with the hood propped open, but I didn't know it would go back as far as in your pic! I'll remember that, in case there's a next time.


Great job, I LOVE the pics! How much time for the pull?

I worked a few hours most nights last week, disconnecting stuff. Then, I took most of Saturday finishing that up. I rounded the edges on one torque converter nut, and that cost me some time.

Then, this morning after church, we did the easy part of just pulling it out.

[Meteorite]

My priority is to get the parts needed off this old engine to put onto the rebuilt engine. But my curiousity got the best of me, and I wanted to have a look under the cam cover. The intial noise I heard sounded like it was coming from the driver's side timing chain.

I didn't see anything that looked damaged. No metal shavings. The chains seemed taut.

But I did find one odd thing (see 3rd through 5th pictures). It was some kind of nylon seal, just sitting all by its lonesome, near the back wall of the cam enclosure. I don't know if it is a bonus part, or whether it came off from somewhere in the camshaft area. Maybe someone can tell me from the part number where its original home was? Looks to be: F50E-60527-AA.

I don't think that a plastic part like that could be hard enough to make the original sound I was complaining about, but perhaps the cam lobes were playing ping-pong with this thing?

What do y'all think?

[Blackened300a]

My priority is to get the parts needed off this old engine to put onto the rebuilt engine. But my curiousity got the best of me, and I wanted to have a look under the cam cover. The intial noise I heard sounded like it was coming from the driver's side timing chain.

I didn't see anything that looked damaged. No metal shavings. The chains seemed taut.

But I did find one odd thing (see 3rd through 5th pictures). It was some kind of nylon seal, just sitting all by its lonesome, near the back wall of the cam enclosure. I don't know if it is a bonus part, or whether it came off from somewhere in the camshaft area. Maybe someone can tell me from the part number where its original home was? Looks to be: F50E-60527-AA.

I don't think that a plastic part like that could be hard enough to make the original sound I was complaining about, but perhaps the cam lobes were playing ping-pong with this thing?

What do y'all think?

That is the rubber donut on the bottom of the cam cover spark plug valley. Flip your cam cover over and you'll notice one missing.

[Meteorite]

That is the rubber donut on the bottom of the cam cover spark plug valley. Flip your cam cover over and you'll notice one missing.

Thanks, I see that now.

[Meteorite]

We've been transferring parts off the old engine onto the rebuilt one.

Meanwhile, we thought we'd take a look inside the oil pan of the broken motor (see pics). What do you think? Is that a lot of metal shavings? I guess I expected to see more metal than that, given the beating it sounded like it was taking, and the fact that it seized up at the dealership.

[Blackened300a]

I guess I expected to see more metal than that, given the beating it sounded like it was taking, and the fact that it seized up at the dealership.

A tensioner wouldn't produce a lot of metal shavings just noise and Im pretty sure some bent valves are probably what seized the engine.

[Meteorite]

A tensioner wouldn't produce a lot of metal shavings just noise and Im pretty sure some bent valves are probably what seized the engine.

Any ideas how I can test the tensioner?

As for the valves, would I do a leakdown test, or just visually inspect them?

[Blackened300a]

Any ideas how I can test the tensioner?

As for the valves, would I do a leakdown test, or just visually inspect them?

If your valves hit the pistons, you'll see it. Im not sure how to test a tensioner. I know oil pressure pushes a piston down on a slide which tightens the chain.
Sort of like this...
QrZiQBaVVDQ

[Meteorite]

If your valves hit the pistons, you'll see it. Im not sure how to test a tensioner. I know oil pressure pushes a piston down on a slide which tightens the chain.
Sort of like this...


Thanks, I will check the chain for slop when I get the timing cover off. Right now, I'm mostly trying to get the car up and running with the rebuilt engine.

[Chevyguy]

Aww that ain't much debris, was the engine actually seized? it did rotate by hand on your video!

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25 366&d=1309815898

My 96 Lincoln engine still ran when I pulled it and I found this in the pan

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q329/folingo/1996%20Town%20Car%20Signature/Engine%20Swap/SL372344.jpg

[Meteorite]

Aww that ain't much debris, was the engine actually seized? it did rotate by hand on your video!

Yes, it does rotate by hand. I'm still not sure how it seized at the dealership.



My 96 Lincoln engine still ran when I pulled it and I found this in the pan


Yeah, I didn't think it seemed like a lot. The teardown will be interesting to me. I'm curious what's wrong with the motor.

[Meteorite]

Here's a video of the rebuilt engine, a day after we finished installing it into my wife's blue Marauder.

We will try a road test later today.

crT2DmNSxCs

[wickedmerc]

Did you get a chance to road test it yet? How's it working out?

[Blackened300a]

Did you get a chance to road test it yet? How's it working out?

Hows your engine still working out?

[Meteorite]

Did you get a chance to road test it yet? How's it working out?


Hows your engine still working out?

Yes, we have put a little over 100 miles on it since putting the rebuilt engine in. Functionally, it feels great. I am getting 3 or 4 error codes (and once in a while the Check Engine light comes on).

The codes are for high voltage on the right rear 02 sensor, and there one related to low power steering pressure (but I think that may have been a pre-existing condition).

Probably a few gremlins left to chase away, but I'm very happy with how the car runs and drives now.

[Meteorite]

I think I have the last gremlin out of the rebuilt motor now. We have about 850 miles on the rebuilt motor now. I still had been getting the P0136 code, when driving around town. And the idle had been somewhat rough in Drive or Reverse (okay in Neutral).

I was talking to a guy at work with engine calibration experience. He suggested that it could be a dirty fuel injector. That makes sense, since only the O2 sensor on the Passengers side was indicating a lean condition. If it had been a vacuum leak, you would think the O2 sensors on both sides would have complained about it.

When he mentioned the fuel injector, I remembered that I had switched all of the injectors from my wife's original lower intake to the leftover one from when my black car had the Trilogy installed (because it was cleaner). But I had trouble getting the injectors out of the intake. So (in typical knucklehead fashion) I found a small socket to sit over the business end of each injector and tapped them out with a hammer. So, it is likely that I damaged one of the injectors doing that.

The way I think the engine controller works is that if the O2 sensor picks up a lean condition, then it will make all the fuel injectors (on that bank?) shoot more fuel, even though 3 out of 4 of them might already be okay. That's not going to balance out the combustion in the cylinders, thus my rough idle in Drive.

I never had a problem getting the P0136 code while driving on the highway, or any time I could keep moving; it always happened idling at stop lights. I test drove it for about half an hour, around town, and no O2 sensor code! So, I think I'm officially done with the engine transplant.

I am still getting the P0552 code, which is power steering related, and which I believe was a pre-existing condition. I will sort that one out either tomorrow or next weekend.

[Blackened300a]

Did you replace the injectors on that bank and it improved your idle too?

[Meteorite]

Did you replace the injectors on that bank and it improved your idle too?

I replaced 3 of the 4 injectors on that bank. The idle is definitely smoother now. But I'm still sometimes getting the P0136 code, especially if it is hot outside and I run the A/C. I may swap out the last one that was a bit harder to get to, and see if that helps. Meanwhile, I am running a dose of fuel injector cleaner through to see if that helps any.

[Blackened300a]

I replaced 3 of the 4 injectors on that bank. The idle is definitely smoother now. But I'm still sometimes getting the P0136 code, especially if it is hot outside and I run the A/C. I may swap out the last one that was a bit harder to get to, and see if that helps. Meanwhile, I am running a dose of fuel injector cleaner through to see if that helps any.

Maybe try spraying some starter fluid in there to make sure all the O rings are sealed and that your intake gasket isn't leaking.

[Meteorite]

Maybe try spraying some starter fluid in there to make sure all the O rings are sealed and that your intake gasket isn't leaking.

Already tried this on the intake gasket.

I am pulling enough intake manifold vacuum that I doubt anything is leaking.

I guess it would be worth trying on the O-rings.