A Cooling Problem??????

[Pat]

I noticed this anomaly a few driving cycles ago, the engine temp gage will rise to the 3/4 hot side with the A/C on in traffic with the outside temps in excess of 100 degrees.

With the A/C off the temp stays at the usual normal indication, even in traffic. The change in temp gage readings up or down is within a minute or two.

The radiator is clean, no bugs or other debris, coolant overflow tank is at the normal level.

This is the first time in seven years that this has happened. Could it be a fan problem?

Thanks,

[Blackened300a]

When the coolant temp goes up, is the A/C still blowing cold?

[sailsmen]

You are probably cooking your engine. Buy a scan guage and monitor the coolant temps. The temp guage is called and idiot lite because it is well an idiot lite.
95+* under 40 MPH with out the OEM fan and shroud equals over heat. Blocking the Rad with an over size Trans Cooler or Intercooler also equals over heat. IF you live in Yankee Land no problem ;)

See - http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65023&highlight=radiator and
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66027&highlight=thermostat

Read every word of each one of my posts.

Did you ever get your belt to stop shredding?

[kmastl]

I noticed this anomaly a few driving cycles ago, the engine temp gage will rise to the 3/4 hot side with the A/C on in traffic with the outside temps in excess of 100 degrees.

With the A/C off the temp stays at the usual normal indication, even in traffic. The change in temp gage readings up or down is within a minute or two.

The radiator is clean, no bugs or other debris, coolant overflow tank is at the normal level.

This is the first time in seven years that this has happened. Could it be a fan problem?

Thanks,

Did you try burping the cooling system?

[RF Overlord]

The radiator is clean, no bugs or other debris, Could it be a fan problem?Pat, IIRC the fan is supposed to run at all times when the AC is on.

Also, you say the rad is clear, but is that only in the front? A number of people have discovered that debris gets lodged between the rad and the AC condenser, restricting airflow.

[jimlam56]

Doesn't the A/C cut out when coolant temps reach a certain level?

[1stMerc]

Pat, IIRC the fan is supposed to run at all times when the AC is on.

Also, you say the rad is clear, but is that only in the front? A number of people have discovered that debris gets lodged between the rad and the AC condenser, restricting airflow.

What he said...

Also make sure non of the fins have flattened by stone chips or big fat June bugs. Do you have an aftermarket tranny cooler mounted in front of the radiator.

[sailsmen]

I think Pat has a Vortech style S/C. This probably means the OEM fan shroud was replaced with an open fan shroud. The open fan shroud does not flow enough air in certain conditions.

If Pat also has a trans cooler blocking flow that will make it worse. Some installed a trans cooler that block flow and disconnected the OEM trans cooler while still leaving it in place to also block air flow. This is ok if you have the OEM fan shroud.

Built into the OEM trans cooler is the PS Cooler. Just cut off the PS cooler and remount it.

[zman]

In my experience low speed overheating usually means fan problems of some sort.

[SC Cheesehead]

You are probably cooking your engine. Buy a scan guage and monitor the coolant temps. The temp guage is called and idiot lite because it is well an idiot lite.
95+* under 40 MPH with out the OEM fan and shroud equals over heat. Blocking the Rad with an over size Trans Cooler or Intercooler also equals over heat. IF you live in Yankee Land no problem ;)



FWIW, I've had zero overheating issues since installing my Type 100 heat exchanger, I've been data logging since April, and the highest temp recorded to date was 204*, 98* ambient, sitting in a traffic jam on I-20 with the A/C on.


I think Pat has a Vortech style S/C. This probably means the OEM fan shroud was replaced with an open fan shroud. The open fan shroud does not flow enough air in certain conditions.

If Pat also has a trans cooler blocking flow that will make it worse. Some installed a trans cooler that block flow and disconnected the OEM trans cooler while still leaving it in place to also block air flow. This is ok if you have the OEM fan shroud.

Built into the OEM trans cooler is the PS Cooler. Just cut off the PS cooler and remount it.

Very interesting observation, Billy. Marauderman is also having ovreheating issues with his car, and is running a Vortech with an open fan shroud, maybe he'll weigh in on the discussion.

[sailsmen]

FWIW, I've had zero overheating issues since installing my Type 100 heat exchanger, I've been data logging since April, and the highest temp recorded to date was 204*, 98* ambient, sitting in a traffic jam on I-20 with the A/C on.



Very interesting observation, Billy. Marauderman is also having ovreheating issues with his car, and is running a Vortech with an open fan shroud, maybe he'll weigh in on the discussion.

With the open fan shroud my car would get to 220* and would get higher, don't know how high because I took steps to stop it, if did not shut off the A/C.

With the replacement fans 210* is the max.

We have been having 100* days the past several months.

20-40mph seems to generate the highest coolant temps. Possibly in the zone between fans and air dam forced flow.

Pat another thing to look at is the condition of your front air dam. They deforem over time.

The open fan shroud does not work in the South. Just look at all that went in to the design of the OEM Fan shroud and the amount of flow it creates.

The first gen Mustang Cobras had the same issue and a TSB. It was only and issue with cars in the South and the main fix was a different A/C that allowed more air flow.

[Marauderjack]

I pulled the "Saluda Grade" on Monday when the outside temp was 101*-103* and saw the highest coolant temps ever on my ScanGauge........238*.....WOW! !:eek:

Rex can attest the "Saluda Grade" is UPHILL for awhile........:cool:

When I got to Asheville, NC I was back down to 204*-209* and much happier!!:D

Mine has never run HOT in traffic but my fan works fine with the A/C on!!:beer:

[SC Cheesehead]

I pulled the "Saluda Grade" on Monday when the outside temp was 101*-103* and saw the highest coolant temps ever on my ScanGauge........238*.....WOW! !:eek:

Rex can attest the "Saluda Grade" is UPHILL for awhile........:cool:

When I got to Asheville, NC I was back down to 204*-209* and much happier!!:D

Mine has never run HOT in traffic but my fan works fine with the A/C on!!:beer:

Roger that!

No overheating issues with mine to date going up the grade, but I've not driven it in +100* temps yet...;)

[1stMerc]

IIRC, Pat does not have an ic to block the radiator.

Since my install the highest temps i've seen while in traffic, with the a/c on, is 204* on the 90-100* days here. Might hit 206 with heat soak after making stops during errand runs, but quickly goes back down after getting under way. That's with a tranny cooler sitting in the middle of radiator and inverted shroud +upper and lower grill mod. Ic is angled so it doesn't block top half of rad.

Pat, look and see if the fan comes on when the a/c cluth kicks in. You may have to check before the engine gets up to n/o temps.

[screamn]

+1 on burping the system.

Also, might want to try a Reishe performance 170 t-stat.

Here is the addy:

http://reischeperformance.com/index.html#anchor

Both of the above solved my heating issues.

[sailsmen]

Read Mr. Reische comments in my linked threads.

If Pat has the open fan shroud that is probably the problem. The cure is in my linked threads, new fans.

I had this problem during the heat wave of 2005 and then it showed up again during the heat wave in 2010.

In 2005 I removed the OEM trans cooler and replaced w/ a different trans cooler in a diff location.

In 2010 I installed different fan system and replaced air dam.

[Pat]

Thanks alot guys, I've got enough suggestions to try out. With global warming the temps this year on my cabin gage is 110-114. This anomaly just started so I'm going to first check the fans for operation. The air dam is another thing to check as I have an aftermarket item. I'll check for debris between the radiators too.

If I turn off the A/C and still in traffic, the temps come down or if I leave the A/C on
and get on the freeway 55+ the temp comes down.

If the fans are working then I may just have a borderline system with all the mods and things start heating up when the outside temps get above 100 to 110.

Last year was also a 100 degree plus but the car never overheated.

Tomorrow I'll look into these suggestions.

For Sailsman, the belt is still shredding. Jason, my mechanic son, will devote some time to it this next week.

[mcgyver59]

Some good info was.given and some poor advice.

First, get the reische t stat. A 180 stat from Napa wont even open until.192 and not.fully open until over 200.
Definitely make.sure the radiator and.condenser are clean. Remove the plastic between the two.and clean with.the.garden hose.

The mustang fan shroud is not the problem. Let's not even discuss it further ok?

The fan.has 2 speeds....are they both working? Is the high speed value in the tune correct? Things to look at

Also, the marauder pcm shuts off the fan altogether at speeds over 50mph...bet no one knew that.

Hope this helps

[sailsmen]

Some good info was.given and some poor advice.

First, get the reische t stat. A 180 stat from Napa wont even open until.192 and not.fully open until over 200.
Definitely make.sure the radiator and.condenser are clean. Remove the plastic between the two.and clean with.the.garden hose.

The mustang fan shroud is not the problem. Let's not even discuss it further ok?

The fan.has 2 speeds....are they both working? Is the high speed value in the tune correct? Things to look at

Also, the marauder pcm shuts off the fan altogether at speeds over 50mph...bet no one knew that.

Hope this helps
You don't know what you are talking about.

From Reisch web site;
"Most people think a larger radiator will improve the capacity of the cooling system but a big factor that is often overlooked is airflow. Increasing airflow will have a dramatic effect on the cooling ability of any radiator which is why most choose to do so when prepping a vehicle for race use. Some common ways to get more air through the radiator are:

•Increase the size of the lower air dam
•Box in the radiator to force air to flow through it and not around it
•Additional hood and fascia vents
•Additional or more powerful cooling fans
This is also why you never want to remove the lower air dam on a modern vehicle. Not to mention it will reduce the life of the radiator fan(s) and could even cause overheating."

My Question - "Do you think your Thermostat will help?"

Reischeperformance answer - "It should lower the temps at speed a bit but in traffic the 210* is likely from lack of airflow. At 210* either a 170* or a 180* thermostat will be wide open, the 170* will only give you a little more time before everything gets heatsoaked and the temps start climbing."
You don't understand how a theromstat works. A theromstat does not increase the capacity to extract heat from the system.
If as you say the open Mustang Shroud is not the problem then why did Ford go to all the trouble to put on a Marauder Shroud? Why just save a lot of money and put on the Mustang Shroud? Are you saying the open Mustang Shroud draws the same air as the Marauder Shroud? IT DOES NOT!

Looks like Zack is back.

[Pat]

OK, the fans are working, the lower air dam is properly installed, the coolant is filled, burped and the thermostat is working.
Radiators are cleaned and clear, but I do have an additional tranny oil cooler in front of everything. That may be the difference.

As I mentioned before the temps here are consistently above 110 on the street (as read by the on-board thermometer),

Jason, my mech, made some calls to Dallas and talked to several shops foreign and domestic. Many of their customers are experiencing the same anomaly.

The super hot street temps is causing problems not usually experienced. So their fix as been to replace stock thermostats with 20 degree cooler models and drill four "pin holes" in the t-stat flange. They claim it fixes the problem, sources: HPP racing, Jo-Tech, Honda racing in Dallas and Shreveport. Don't ask me to explain the pin hole drilling, I cannot.

Ordered lower temp 160 degree T-stat. Will install with the drilled pin holes when it comes in. I'll report back.

[sailsmen]

Ditch the extra tranny cooler. The OEM is over kill in most cases.

The extra holes can allow more coolant flow. Too much flow and it won't transfer the heat. Reische - "will only give you a little more time before everything gets heatsoaked and the temps start climbing".

What fixed mine was different fans.

[Pat]

Sailsmen;

The extra tranny cooler stays. It came recommended by my PI-3500 torque converter installer because of the extra heat build up in these units. Also recommended by other vendors of hi-speed torque converters.

Until this year I have not had an issue, but this year the temps are 10-15 degrees higher.

The t-stat fix is the most economical at $29.00 plus shipping.

I was looking at Cobra 25, Tom Archambault's, pro-charger set up and noted he has retained the fan shroud and didn't have to resort to a bubbled hood. Interesting.

Regards,

[mcgyver59]

Mind linking us the the 160 stat you ordered? I think you may be returning it because there are no know manufacturers that make a 160 stat for our housings with the correct bypass flange diameter.

[sailsmen]

Sailsmen;

The extra tranny cooler stays. It came recommended by my PI-3500 torque converter installer because of the extra heat build up in these units. Also recommended by other vendors of hi-speed torque converters.

Until this year I have not had an issue, but this year the temps are 10-15 degrees higher.

The t-stat fix is the most economical at $29.00 plus shipping.

I was looking at Cobra 25, Tom Archambault's, pro-charger set up and noted he has retained the fan shroud and didn't have to resort to a bubbled hood. Interesting.

Regards,

I have a 3500 Stall and a tran cooler that is about 8"X12" with 80,000 S/C miles and over 100 1/4 mile runs with no heat related trans issues.

I have had my tran fluid tested and it showed no heat related issues.

I removed the OEM tran cooler.

A trans rebuild is a lot less than an engine rebuild.

Flipping the OEM fan shroud did not work for my set up. It may work for yours.

[babbage]

+1 on burping the system.

Also, might want to try a Reishe performance 170 t-stat.

Here is the addy:

http://reischeperformance.com/index.html#anchor

Both of the above solved my heating issues.

This works, even better with an EMP pump and a Reinhart rear head cooling mod.

[sailsmen]

Neither the EMP pump or the rear head cooling mod cured the heat condition I had.

[mcgyver59]

Neither the EMP pump or the rear head cooling mod cured the heat condition I had.

Do you have the Reische thermostat?

[sailsmen]

Do you have the Reische thermostat?

Mr. Reische told me it would not help my heat condition.

My Question - "Do you think your Thermostat will help?"

Reischeperformance answer - "It should lower the temps at speed a bit but in traffic the 210* is likely from lack of airflow. At 210* either a 170* or a 180* thermostat will be wide open, the 170* will only give you a little more time before everything gets heatsoaked and the temps start climbing."

[mcgyver59]

Mr. Reische told me it would not help my heat condition.

My Question - "Do you think your Thermostat will help?"

Reischeperformance answer - "It should lower the temps at speed a bit but in traffic the 210* is likely from lack of airflow. At 210* either a 170* or a 180* thermostat will be wide open, the 170* will only give you a little more time before everything gets heatsoaked and the temps start climbing."

The thermostat would have cured all of your reported problems.

[sailsmen]

Not according to the person that makes the thermostat.

1996 Cobras in the South had the same issue. Ford did a TSB, informative thread - http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/sn95-cobras-24/384925-1996-cooling-tsb.html

Zack is back.

[Pat]

I want to close out this thread because I think I found the problem with the cooling system getting above normal gage readings when temps got hot in city driving with the air on. Although the car has never done this before, and my wife's GM does not do it.

This weekend the crank pulley finally wore through the coolant hose that's between the lower block and the T-stat. I say finally because I think it's been wearing through the hose casing a little at a time until it cut through causing a loss of pressure but little coolant loss. That greatly affects temp control. I had noticed this close relationship before and tie strapped the T-stat and hose assembly pulling it away from the crank pulley. The tie strap must have broken cause there was no sign of it. This hose routing is not readily visible due to the S/C ducting.

This week end Jason, my middle son, was at National Guard duty 200 miles from home when the pulley cut through the hose resulting in a big loss of coolant and immediate over-temp. This was at midnight Sunday but fortunately he was next to a truck stop, pulled in and diagnosed the problem. He used his trusty Army knife and cut through the hose, bought a plastic straight through piece, some clamps and affected a good repair. Filled the system, burped it and came home in good shape. Saved about $600.00 in towing fees.

Way to go Son, you made your old dad proud.

This hose piece is not usually stocked by my local dealers and my replacement is coming from Detroit, should be here by Thursday. Cost $54.00.

PS: I did find the remnants of the tie strap. It had broken, this type was the round kind with little engagement bumbs. Heat and age prolly got to it. Next type I use will the a larger flat type.

[sailsmen]

Sailsmen;

The extra tranny cooler stays. It came recommended by my PI-3500 torque converter installer because of the extra heat build up in these units. Also recommended by other vendors of hi-speed torque converters.

Until this year I have not had an issue, but this year the temps are 10-15 degrees higher.

The t-stat fix is the most economical at $29.00 plus shipping.

I was looking at Cobra 25, Tom Archambault's, pro-charger set up and noted he has retained the fan shroud and didn't have to resort to a bubbled hood. Interesting.

Regards,

Were you able to install the "t-stat" before the hose broke and if so did it make a difference?

[fastblackmerc]

I say finally because I think it's been wearing through the hose casing a little at a time until it cut through causing a loss of pressure but little coolant loss. That greatly affects temp control. I had noticed this close relationship before and tie strapped the T-stat and hose assembly pulling it away from the crank pulley. The tie strap must have broken cause there was no sign of it. This hose routing is not readily visible due to the S/C ducting.



If you have a hole in the hose regardless of how small you will lose coolant not just pressure.

[Pat]

Sailsman;
No, the new T-Stat had not been installed.

fastblackmerc; It was my working hypothesis.:lol:

[Pat]

Starting a new summer now with temps expected in the 100-114 degree range at the street level.

This year several things have changed on my car, the head cooling mod has been installed and Zack also put in a "true" 170 degree thermostat (not sure what that means).

Street temps are at 100 degrees here now but I haven't been driving the MM much so can't say anything definitive yet. However, I have noticed the coolant temp hand is a little lower on the dial than last year.

For Sailsman: My son, the Honda mech, was able to devote some time on the belt shredding issue and fixed it. What he found was the bolts that hold the alternator bracket, a Vortec item, had loosened and the washers were split. You normally can't see these bolts as they are reverse installed. This was prolly caused by me when I had the head unit off for engine cleaning.

Anyway the belt shredding problem is history.

[Mike M]

With the open fan shroud my car would get to 220* and would get higher, don't know how high because I took steps to stop it, if did not shut off the A/C.

With the replacement fans 210* is the max.

We have been having 100* days the past several months.

20-40mph seems to generate the highest coolant temps. Possibly in the zone between fans and air dam forced flow.

Pat another thing to look at is the condition of your front air dam. They deforem over time.

The open fan shroud does not work in the South. Just look at all that went in to the design of the OEM Fan shroud and the amount of flow it creates.

The first gen Mustang Cobras had the same issue and a TSB. It was only and issue with cars in the South and the main fix was a different A/C that allowed more air flow.
Different A/C?

[Mike M]

On Tuesday my dash readout said 119 outside temp. It was HOT outside!

After about 8 miles my temp gauge was about half way up which is a bit higher then normal so I kept an eye on it. Most of my trip was about 45mph, sure enough it kepts creeping up. At 3/4 hot I shut Ac off and it help to bring it back to half way slowly. Ac was starting to blow warm at that point anyway.
Transmission must have gone into limp in mode as it up shifted way too early which lugged motor taking off from stop lights. Finally got it back to my shop and let it sit over night. Next day I took off bleed screw and added bottle of water wetter and about a qt of water. I only had a chance to drive it for about 15 minutes so far but gauge is staying lower then half way.
Ambient temp is 108, road temp.....who knows.

Tomorrow I will try to take the same 20 mile trip to see if problem is cured.

Overflow bottle was full so I assume I had some air in system that only became critical with these super hot temps here on the planet Mercury.

The trans up shifting was very pronounced and went back to normal after the cool down.

[Mike M]

I have confirmed my temp gauge going to 3/4 to hot and still moving up. I turn off the A/C and it will come back to normal. Outside temp 118 (according to dash temp gauge). No air in system, fan works at high speed. I just ordered a 170 thermostat, will be here in a couple days. Not much more I can do. It may be just normal for these ambient temps but it makes the car undrivable.

[sailsmen]

The problem is probably not moving enough air over the radiator. Do you have the OEM fan shroud and front air dam?

[sailsmen]

Different A/C?

See post #30

[BODYMAN]

Good point Pat! Mike are you running a OE fan or like the Vortechs using a Cobra fan? Youre S/C set up Air 2 Air? I for one dont think in temps that high having a roots type blower my car would even like to be driven.

[BODYMAN]

/////////////////////

[Mike M]

I have the stock shroud but I dont have a air dam, my inter cooler mouth is down there. Not enough air flow makes sense but not sure how to rectify.
Driving the car in this heat (local runs) just flat out sucks.
My wife's C6 Corvette runs cool and feels just as fast, but my supercharged Marauder feels slow and I wont dare floor in this heat.

This problem may not be a problem when the temps get down to 100ish.

Any ideas on getting more air flow?

Different fan, condenser, trying to piece together a air dam?


Thanks

[sailsmen]

The OEM fan shroud is the best. I don't know if there is a blade/motor that will flow better.

Try installing a modified front air dam.

Do you have a different trans cooler that is blocking flow? I removed the OEM trans cooler and cut the PS cooler off mounting it to the front sway bar. I replaced the OEM trans cooler with a smaller remote unit.

You can take your plastic grill off.

You can switch to 100% water plus Redline water wetter for the hot months.

You can install a Stewart WP.

[Mike M]

Hmmm front air dam...what does that look like? Now that I think about it, I am not so sure.

A picture or part#?

I have my Durango on the lift right now and noticed it's air dam could work with a little modding. Calling junk yard.

[sailsmen]

3w1z-8327-aa deflect $31.58

[Mike M]

On it's way, it doesn't look like I thought it would.
Thanks for your help.