Engine Rattle at start-up

[tomhilmes]

I have read posts about engine noise all morning and I can't find anyone that seems to have same problem although I'm starting to form a diagnosis from the various stories. Here's mine:

In the morning or after sitting for a few hours, at start up the engine rattles (sounds like valve train with no lubrication). Lasts for 2-4 seconds. You can watch the OP gauge climb up to normal and about 1/2 way to normal pressure, the sound goes away.

It does not happen if the engine is warm. It does not happen at any other time than a relatively cold start up. Running factory specified oil and filter - always have. No leaks, oil level is dead on. First thought was oil pump issue - but nobody is talking about that.

Everybody is talking about chains and tensioners but absolutely no issues except at start up.

Has 90,000 easy miles. I grew up working on engines but have never gone too deep into this thing. It's my daily driver. Everything in my gut says oil pressure problem.

Where do I start guys?

Tom

[slickster]

I'm leaning more torward chain but ether or could be a vary big prob if not taken care of soon and soon like don't even start it until you fix it. Try rock auto.com or tasca ford for oem parts

[RF Overlord]

This may seem simplistic, but what brand of oil filter are you using? More specifically, you need to use a filter with a silicone ADBV, like the factory-recommended Motorcraft FL820S. The anti-drainback valve stops oil from draining out of the filter, which then requires re-filling every time you start. Many filters have a nitrile rubber ADBV which doesn't last. This is a common cause of start-up noise.

[tomhilmes]

The drainback valve was my first thought. Have always used the 820 motorcraft filter as well as the motorcraft oil that's specified by the owners
manual/dealership.

I appreciate the feedback as I'm really looking for the simple things first before I take the front of the engine off.

My biggest concern with the whole process is getting it sealed back up so it doesn't leak. It's pristine now.

Does anybody think it could be the pick-up tube? Does the pan have to come off to replace oil pump?

I should mention that the gasket that attaches the oil filter mount to the block was leaking a couple of years ago and I replaced it with no problems. Haven't had a leak since (~20K miles).

Where is the oil pressure control valve located? Is it inside the oil pump?

Thanks everybody,

Tom

[TFB]

Noise for a few seconds at startup is usually the timing chain tensioners letting the chains slap, till oil pressure fills them and tightens the chains... Is it fatal??? Well I dunno, the guides may be worn out or possibly just the hydraulic cylinder in the tensioners are a little worn, which would likely run for another 50K mi...

Forget about the pickup, not your issue...

[tomhilmes]

Thanks for your response. The idea that the tensioners are collaspsing then refilling at start up makes sense as it very much feels/sounds like a start-up with a fresh oil change on any car - that moment that you wait for the oil pressure gauge to jump as the new filter fills.

Can the tensioners be accessed or replaced without removing the front housing? If not, seems like I may as well change everything since I'm already going to be that deep in.

Looks like I'm going to be pulling valve covers, front housing, radiator, etc. Looks like a full weekend.

Tom

[RF Overlord]

Tom, since you brought it up, you do know the the oil pressure gauge is a fake, right?

[tomhilmes]

Nope. Made the assumption that it was a real gauge with an electric sensor on the block. That's crazy. Guess that's why it reads just like it always has.

[RF Overlord]

Exactly. It's a glorified idiot light.

AutoMeter DOES make a real working gauge that looks almost identical to the OEM fake one. P/N 4327... Includes new sender (needed).

[Blackened300a]

I hope its not that stupid starter problem makes people think its the engine making noise.
This noise also only happens on cold starts and is quiet on warm engines like you are describing.

This sound familiar?
YQ2eSXQsp6w

[stangracr]

just my .02cents My Marauder has rattled at startup since I got the car with 24,000 miles. Car has over 60,000 on it now with no problems. I think lots of the 4.6 dohc cars have this concern. I wouldnt worry too much about it if it were me. I am sure others will chime in. Im sure it is tensioner and chain related but I have never heard of anything catastrophic happening.




ed

[RacerX]

There is a one way ratchet in the tensioner that keeps constant tension on everything as parts wear. The oil pressure pushes the tensioners against the tensioner arms which in turn tighten up against the chains. Get a cheap auto stethoscope and try and pinpoint it everytime the car starts cold. Have someone else turn it over.

[tomhilmes]

Thanks for the video. Would have never guessed a starter could sound like that! That's not my sound but I will get out the mechanic's stethoscope and poke around and find the actual source.

I'd feel pretty stupid taking the front of the engine off to fix a starter!

Thanks,

Tom

[tomhilmes]

Almost forgot: I'd leave it alone if I could. It has gotten worse than say 3 months ago. But now I think about the issue every morning. I'd rather fix it than deal with my mental state.

Tom

[Blackened300a]

Any way of taking a video of the sound? It may just be something stupid. Recently I would rev my engine and when the RPMs came down it would make this rattle knock sound which had me concerned. Turned out to be the belt tensioner spring creaking when the belt would come back to idle.

[johnjamis]

I used a Fram oil filter once and my engine started rattling on cold startup.

You say you have a Motorcraft oil filter. I would change it just in case it might be the filter. I was told this filter has a valve that keeps the oil from bleeding down after the engine is shut down. Oil in the lines keeps the cam chains from rattling.

Mine has been quiet since I installed a Motorcraft filter.

[RacerX]

BTW, interesting info on oil filters. Some ol, some new...

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/index.html

[kingace]

I had the same problem with the cold rattle start up I changed the filter ti motocraft I still notice a little rattle..does it take time for it to oil up or could this not be a filter problem

[SILVERSURFER03]

Mine has been doing it for awhile like 100k worth the car has 170 on it ... Im in the belief that my noice is in the starter area not engine

[kingace]

I was also thinking the starter going to replace that this weekend hopefully that noise will go away!

[Ozz]

I have the noise described here - tensioner I think, as well as one that only happens in the winter.
It sounds like loose heat shields or something. I haven't investigated yet because, frankly, it's too damn cold when it happens and then in the spring it goes away. Maybe this winter I'll get motivated to find it...

This is good info - I'm going to have the wife start the car and I'm going to find the 'non seasonal' rattle and confirm it's the timing chain tensioner.

[justbob]

I hope its not that stupid starter problem makes people think its the engine making noise.
This noise also only happens on cold starts and is quiet on warm engines like you are describing.

This sound familiar?
YQ2eSXQsp6w

Wow, that was really two and half years ago I made that video??? Guess what? That fix lasted to just last week! Small chunk of magnet again...

This post is rated E for everyone.

[kingace]

Yes please find out its driving me crazy I will also dig deep and try to figure this out

[SpartaPerformance]

Sounds like timing chain tensioners and cassettes.

[kingace]

Sounds like timing chain tensioners and cassettes.

If that is the case how would I go about fixing that

[Ozz]

Are timing chanins/tensioner on the regular maintenance list like they are on 'old school' OHV engines? This is my first OHC engine and I've always wondered when I'd have to bite the bullet and change out the chain and tensioner... no mention of them in the owners manual (up to 150k miles I think).

[RF Overlord]

They are not a regular maintenance item. Many cop cars and taxis go 300,000 miles without opening the motor.

[twin03]

I hope its not that stupid starter problem makes people think its the engine making noise.
This noise also only happens on cold starts and is quiet on warm engines like you are describing.

This sound familiar?
YQ2eSXQsp6w

My Marauder has 120,100 miles on her. At start up, it sounds just like the video.

[Mac-MerC]

its the starter... mine made same noise.. new starter, no more noise

[BODYMAN]

Some of the MM but not all have plastic chain tensioner guides there junk and wear out! my 04 had them and made same noise once replaced with real ones it was gone.

[Bruce Wayne]

What are the real ones?

[kingace]

How much would it cost to replace them

[crownvic97]

I hope its not that stupid starter problem makes people think its the engine making noise.
This noise also only happens on cold starts and is quiet on warm engines like you are describing.

This sound familiar?
YQ2eSXQsp6w

I know this thread is old, but this video is exactly the sound my Marauder makes at startup, I was concerned it could be timing chain related, so that is a relief.

Is a new starter the fix for this sound? Is it a sign of imminent starter failure or anything?

[kernie]

I know this thread is old, but this video is exactly the sound my Marauder makes at startup, I was concerned it could be timing chain related, so that is a relief.

Is a new starter the fix for this sound? Is it a sign of imminent starter failure or anything?

I have a cold start sound like the one in the you tube video on my black, {thanks for posting blackend}. It's packed away with it's winter tires right now. Always thought it was the guides issue, gotta get my head under there and see, hope it's the starter!

:beer:

[SOSA03]

I have the same sound at start up, and did the timing cause i had tensioner issues last year, guess what same old sound at start up . Bendix is probably not disengage from flywheel in time

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk

[VA-Mach1]

I put a MM motor in my Mach 1. Has this same sound at start up but also has a tick at low steady cruzing RPM. I can let off or give more throttle and it goes away. Everything I read says its the timing guides and tensioners. I hope it is because I am getting ready to drop 400+ on a timing set and a weekend to install it. I do not think the starter would make the light throttle rattle tick I have.

[tomhilmes]

This has been an old thread - shows how much I've driven this car in the last few years. Since my first post about the rattle at start up I've taken it to three different dealers. The first two said what many on here have said: "It's normal" or "It's not a big concern". One did tell me I had the wrong oil filter on it which was BS. He showed me a filter that I know didn't come off my car.

All that being said, I've just never had time to dig into the car myself. With the daughter reaching driving age, it had to come back on-line so I took it to a third dealer (Friendly Ford, Springfield, MO) who agreed to do the work.

As you can see, heavy wear is noted on all guides with pieces of them actually gone. The large piece was found in the oil pan. The tensioners were about to lose their seal and disassemble themselves. The timing ring with a missing tooth is a bonus find.

135,000 miles everyone. Rattled for 20k. Don't fool yourself! Change them early or lose an engine. It's a totally different car (like it was when I bought it new) now.

[Ourobos]

^ About what I figured.. I have 191k on mine, think I'll just build a shortblock.. ;)

[VA-Mach1]

To save money I replaced just the guides and tensioners this weekend. Ordered everything from Summit 4 guides 2 hydraulic tensioners for 171. My old guides were worn down to the metal. The new guides helped with the light throttle rattle but not 100%. I still have the rattle at start up but that may be the starter from what I have read in threads.

[VA-Mach1]

Pic of the old tensioners. About 5mm worth of ware.
http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy190/dashenchman/0508161724_zpsrt0jwh1a.jpg (http://s790.photobucket.com/user/dashenchman/media/0508161724_zpsrt0jwh1a.jpg.htm l])

Pic of new stuff with part numbers for anyone interested.
http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy190/dashenchman/0505161701_zpswfmt93xi.jpg (http://s790.photobucket.com/user/dashenchman/media/0505161701_zpswfmt93xi.jpg.htm l)