Need some centrifugal information

[BirchMarauder]

on a stock motor, can you set up a centrifugal s/c to perform similar to a roots blower in relation to getting more low end power vs making power mid to high end. I don't race at the track and don't typically like winding out the engine. eaton swap is my last choice if the above isnt possible.

[JoeBoomz]

Not exactly - but with a smaller pulley you can get good pull from a centri starting at around 3,000RPM. The centri really pulls hard at 4,500RPM and above. That said, I use it quite happily in my DD. You can easily offset the low-end shortcomings with 4:10 gears. It passes like crazy on the highway.

WRONG: One other benefit with the centri vs. a root-style blower is, because less air is going into the engine while you are cruising, you ultimately can tune for using less fuel when you're not hard on the pedal. WRONG because a bypass valve can be set up on a roots-style blower to limit the boost at lower TP's.

If you want to do lots of burnouts and have a lot of low-end power, go for a twin screw.

BUT because you live in Florida, I'd recommend the centri because you can add an intercooler to bring down your intake air temps. Twin screws get heatsoaked because there is no option for an intercooler, BUT there are additional cooling options available for roots-style blowers.

You're very close to the king of Centri on the Marauder, Dennis Reinhart, and help is close by if you need it with either style of blower.

You'll be happy with either choice and both will work great on a stock motor!

[johnnyrauder]

i have a cent. if you put 410s and a 3000 stall converter there is plenty of low end grunt. i've driven both and actually perfer the cent.

[LANDY]

i have a cent. if you put 410s and a 3000 stall converter there is plenty of low end grunt. i've driven both and actually perfer the cent. perfect answer. A stall and gears centrifugal has nothing to envy from a roots style.

[BirchMarauder]

I know what the gears do (4:10) but the 3000 stall converter does what exactly?

[sailsmen]

It is more Myth than reality. I have owned a turbo, pd and a cent.

Look at the 60' times of the different systems. For several years the lowest 60' was a Cent.
Can you tell the difference in a 1.45 vs 1.60 60'? You must be one of those X Mutuants if you can measure .15 of a second!
In many cases it comes down to traction. Anything less than 30mph and my tires just spin on the street.:D

Another Myth is a high stall ruins a cars driveability. In the days of no computers and mechanical trans that may have been true. Today that is not the case. Both my spouse and teenagers have driven my MM. No one can tell what stall is in it.

[Marauderman]

i have a cent. if you put 410s and a 3000 stall converter there is plenty of low end grunt. i've driven both and actually perfer the cent.

same here^^^^^+1

[LANDY]

It is more Myth than reality. I have owned a turbo, pd and a cent.

Look at the 60' times of the different systems. For several years the lowest 60' was a Cent.
Can you tell the difference in a 1.45 vs 1.60 60'? You must be one of those X Mutuants if you can measure .15 of a second!
In many cases it comes down to traction. Anything less than 30mph and my tires just spin on the street.:D

Another Myth is a high stall ruins a cars driveability. In the days of no computers and mechanical trans that may have been true. Today that is not the case. Both my spouse and teenagers have driven my MM. No one can tell what stall is in it.
Billy, there is no doubt a centrifugal car needs the high stall to compete with a roots a turbo car in the 1320. You should know better than that.
The 60' comparison has too many variables to be brough go the table, driver, traction, tires, gears, weather. Mutuant! The clock it is, with the timeslip to prove it.
It is true a good tune can make a car with a stall feel pleasant to drive. But if I can tell a high stall car from far away no mater how good the tune is.

[sailsmen]

Billy, there is no doubt a centrifugal car needs the high stall to compete with a roots a turbo car in the 1320. You should know better than that.
The 60' comparison has too many variables to be brough go the table, driver, traction, tires, gears, weather. Mutuant! The clock it is, with the timeslip to prove it.
It is true a good tune can make a car with a stall feel pleasant to drive. But if I can tell a high stall car from far away no mater how good the tune is.

Incorrect. A stock MM plus Trilogy and a stock MM plus Vortech both ran the 1/4 in 12.9 to 13.3 depending on temps.

I have had an S/C since 2005 and watched the development of the 2 systems take place.

You must be a "Mutuant" with XRay eyes. You cannot tell my high stall car from far away and the average person never notices. Like you said it is in the tune.

[sailsmen]

The Air to Air has no heat exchanger, intercooler pump, reservoir and associated plumbing. Several have blown engines due to intercooler pump failure. Some Vortec's cannot be operated below 25*, however they have a number of different Vortec models, just check to make sure that is not an issue.

When the Trilogy was being developed the 4:10s were installed for a lower ET at the drag strip by Trilogy.

For two years the lowest 60' time was a Vortec Centrifugal. Whats on a Dyno and whats real world are not the same

Vortec vs Trilogy Real World Data!
One MM was Vortec and one MM was Eaton. Both had same gears and tires. Vortec 10psi and Eaton 12.5psi. Vortec 3,500 PI. Vortec had 55,000 miles and Eaton 15,000.

I line up next to a beautiful red MM. This is the first MM I have ever lined up against. I get in the zone.

My r/t is .091 to his .144, ahead by .053, yahoo! Then I open up, my 60’ is 1.867 to his 2.151, ahead by .284. I feel the S/C winding up, my 330’ is 5.385 to his 5.681, ahead by .296. I know he is got to be there but I don’t know where. Then the 1/8 is 8.285 to his 8.590 ahead by .305.

I know that red beauty is charging on me, my 1,000’ is 10.832 to his 11.130, he closed to .298! Fortunately the ¼ comes up and my ET is 12.985 @104.72 to his 13.290 @104.31.

Wow, I crossed first by .3580!

Timeslipe data from a Vortec and Trilogy. Same gears, tires, exhaust, TC, Eaton 12.5psi and Vortec 10psi. Can you pick which is which?

1.704 5.089 7.942 85.53 10.438 12.554 106.67
1.741 5.096 7.924 86.4 10.399 12.501 107.33
1.702 5.046 7.886 85.7 10.383 12.511 105.89
1.691 5.025 7.852 86.34 10.328 12.426 107.56
1.745 5.096 7.883 87.13 10.329 12.391 109.4
1.748 5.114 7.907 86.9 10.358 12.427 109.03
1.72 5.047 7.822 88.15 10.272 12.333 109.52
1.716 5.019 7.79 87.37 10.237 12.3 109.38
1.744 5.098 7.894 86.79 10.355 12.431 108.69
1.69 5.221 8.051 86.58 10.514 12.921 108.65
Stock Trilogy 388RWHP/369RWTQ

Stock + the Trilogy and + the Vortec both ran 12.9-13.3 depending on temps. As far as the Trilogy providing more low end Torque the 60' times show no descernable difference.

Can you tell which is which? The kits are so close in any given race it will come down to the driver every time.
I cannot tell which is my Cent and which is the Eaton. What this proves it that from a dead stop by the 60' there is no measurable difference. Maybe there is a difference for the first 20'?

I have owned a Cent and an Eaton. I have over 140K on my MM of which 100K is with a Cent. Another member has over 240K of which over 120K is Cent.
The purpose of my post is to dispel some of the myths about a PD vs Cent. I posted real world data. FYI, A stock MM with only a Cent and a stock MM with only a Trilogy run identical 1/4 mile times. That is with the Cent having an OEM TC. For several years the lowest 60' time was held by a Cent. In my post above with the 1/4 data both the Cent and the PD had the same TC with the same 60'. In the race against the other PD MM it was in the 1st 1/8 of the 1/4 that I gained but I lost in the last 1/8 of the 1/4.

If you compare a Dyno Graph of a Cent to a PD you will think for the Cent I had better open the door and push with my foot to get it rolling and for the PD I better get a 30 speed trans and learn to shift really well. Neither is true because a Dyno graph is just that a display of a measurement.

[sailsmen]

Thread that has the same topic;
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66514&highlight=vortech

[sailsmen]

04-02-2003, 08:47 PM
Lidio
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Join Date: Mar 2003
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Drag racing the Marauder this weekend

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For anyone who might be interested, I will be drag racing the Trilogy owned development Marauder this weekend in Reynolds Georgia for a NMRA race. I will be running the car in the Mod-motor class. I’m hoping to run slightly better then I did in Florida a few weeks ago because of the heat and humidity we had out there. The weather in Reynolds is calling for a littler bit cooler and less humid than I had in Florida.

Just to give an update…. I ran 13.42’s with the car at Bradenton Florida at 102mph. This was all achieved with the Marauder being completely stock every where other than the inter-cooled blower package that Trilogy has developed making 9psi in Florida, where as here in Michigan a few weeks ago in the 20 degree air it made around 10ish.
04-07-2003, 10:43 PM
Lidio
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I just want to give an update on the MM performance in Georgia and try to answer a couple of other questions.
First the good stuff. The car far exceeded my expectations. Without touching anything on the car at all since taking it to Florida. It ran any where from 13.23 @ 104 to 13.33et’s as soon as I got to Reynolds. Then after removing the spare tire only, the MM proceeded to click of a 13.08 @ 106 and a couple of 13.16 and 13.18s. The 60 fts were in the mid 1.9’s and a couple of 1.94’s and 1.92’s. I can only account the dramatic increase in performance as being the 70 degree temps instead of high 80’s in Florida and the traction was considerably better at Reynolds. The MM hardly spun the tires at all, even on pretty high rpm brake-torque’s. I now believe that if I can get this car out to a Michigan track in the next couple of weeks while the temps stay below 60 degrees… I feel the car will produce an easy 12.80 to 12.90 ET with good traction.

[LANDY]

Thread that has the same topic;
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66514&highlight=vortech
LOL the thread also got closed because of your nonsense and ignorance. Btw the fact that I wasn't here in 2003 don't mean ****. I bet I have more knoledge of this cars then you do.
Your comparison is off your own experience, everyone has theirs and you can't make the world go by just your experience. Don't ****ing tell me I'm wrong. And stop calling names like a childish men. I can't wait to meet you at the shootout and blow the doors off the car you pay for someone to work on.
I do my own work and tweeks on my car. I bet your car never went 11.67@117mph on the stock motor like I did. Be carefull who you try to outsmart and stop copy amd pasting all the damn time keep the knowledge in your brains.
I'm off this thread now.

[MOTOWN]

:eek::eek::popcorn::popcorn:

[BirchMarauder]

Closing time!

[BODYMAN]

Had several of each on couple diff vehicles. Both are great blowers no doubt, Like another member pointed out a centri blower and air to air cooler down in the south makes good sense for sure. If I lived down there it is what I would still have. Get you a stall, 4:10's and yes the centri blower will be good at lower end. However a Roots blower is the king of low end grunt and in my opinion there is no comparision to the feel you get from say a romp at 5mph or dead still. Again Both are great but if what you desire is TQ there is a certain one for you. I made 500rwhp with a Vortech but only 436rwtq/ On a twin screw that made 545rwhp it made 552rwtq end of story.

[ROCOB]

The Air to Air has no heat exchanger, intercooler pump, reservoir and associated plumbing. Several have blown engines due to intercooler pump failure. Some Vortec's cannot be operated below 25*, however they have a number of different Vortec models, just check to make sure that is not an issue.

When the Trilogy was being developed the 4:10s were installed for a lower ET at the drag strip by Trilogy.

For two years the lowest 60' time was a Vortec Centrifugal. Whats on a Dyno and whats real world are not the same

Vortec vs Trilogy Real World Data!
One MM was Vortec and one MM was Eaton. Both had same gears and tires. Vortec 10psi and Eaton 12.5psi. Vortec 3,500 PI. Vortec had 55,000 miles and Eaton 15,000.

I line up next to a beautiful red MM. This is the first MM I have ever lined up against. I get in the zone.

My r/t is .091 to his .144, ahead by .053, yahoo! Then I open up, my 60’ is 1.867 to his 2.151, ahead by .284. I feel the S/C winding up, my 330’ is 5.385 to his 5.681, ahead by .296. I know he is got to be there but I don’t know where. Then the 1/8 is 8.285 to his 8.590 ahead by .305.

I know that red beauty is charging on me, my 1,000’ is 10.832 to his 11.130, he closed to .298! Fortunately the ¼ comes up and my ET is 12.985 @104.72 to his 13.290 @104.31.

Wow, I crossed first by .3580!

Timeslipe data from a Vortec and Trilogy. Same gears, tires, exhaust, TC, Eaton 12.5psi and Vortec 10psi. Can you pick which is which?

1.704 5.089 7.942 85.53 10.438 12.554 106.67
1.741 5.096 7.924 86.4 10.399 12.501 107.33
1.702 5.046 7.886 85.7 10.383 12.511 105.89
1.691 5.025 7.852 86.34 10.328 12.426 107.56
1.745 5.096 7.883 87.13 10.329 12.391 109.4
1.748 5.114 7.907 86.9 10.358 12.427 109.03
1.72 5.047 7.822 88.15 10.272 12.333 109.52
1.716 5.019 7.79 87.37 10.237 12.3 109.38
1.744 5.098 7.894 86.79 10.355 12.431 108.69
1.69 5.221 8.051 86.58 10.514 12.921 108.65
Stock Trilogy 388RWHP/369RWTQ

Stock + the Trilogy and + the Vortec both ran 12.9-13.3 depending on temps. As far as the Trilogy providing more low end Torque the 60' times show no descernable difference.

Can you tell which is which? The kits are so close in any given race it will come down to the driver every time.
I cannot tell which is my Cent and which is the Eaton. What this proves it that from a dead stop by the 60' there is no measurable difference. Maybe there is a difference for the first 20'?

I have owned a Cent and an Eaton. I have over 140K on my MM of which 100K is with a Cent. Another member has over 240K of which over 120K is Cent.
The purpose of my post is to dispel some of the myths about a PD vs Cent. I posted real world data. FYI, A stock MM with only a Cent and a stock MM with only a Trilogy run identical 1/4 mile times. That is with the Cent having an OEM TC. For several years the lowest 60' time was held by a Cent. In my post above with the 1/4 data both the Cent and the PD had the same TC with the same 60'. In the race against the other PD MM it was in the 1st 1/8 of the 1/4 that I gained but I lost in the last 1/8 of the 1/4.

If you compare a Dyno Graph of a Cent to a PD you will think for the Cent I had better open the door and push with my foot to get it rolling and for the PD I better get a 30 speed trans and learn to shift really well. Neither is true because a Dyno graph is just that a display of a measurement.



Hey Billy,

I need a little help here. I am having trouble following your post. More than once you say it the TCs are the same, however; you say early in the post that the vortec combo has a 3500 PI. I am not trying to be critical, it is just an observation.

[Captain Dynball]

Had several of each on couple diff vehicles. Both are great blowers no doubt, Like another member pointed out a centri blower and air to air cooler down in the south makes good sense for sure. If I lived down there it is what I would still have. Get you a stall, 4:10's and yes the centri blower will be good at lower end. However a Roots blower is the king of low end grunt and in my opinion there is no comparision to the feel you get from say a romp at 5mph or dead still. Again Both are great but if what you desire is TQ there is a certain one for you. I made 500rwhp with a Vortech but only 436rwtq/ On a twin screw that made 545rwhp it made 552rwtq end of story.

Well if you want serious power from a centri you have to skip Vortec. Move straight on to Procharger!

One of my favorite vids!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJLuOq1iUrM

[Shaijack]

Billy you let your wife and children drive your Marauder??????????

[JoeBoomz]

I don't race at the track

Respectfully, guys, before this thread goes the same southernly direction as others have, let's keep the OP in mind. If he wants that track information and discussion he can find it there. I think the original question has been answered well by both camps.

BirchMarauder, do you perhaps live near any members that already have either option? They might be happy to take you for a ride if you buy lunch. You could get a feel for both to make the best decision for yourself. Remember to ask about installation and maintenance too.

[Vortech347]

If your scared of RPM buy a diesel.

end problem.

[jstevens]

About the no intercooler on a twin screw. I thought all roots styles had intercoolers.

[BirchMarauder]

RPM's are really scary. Maybe I will look into dropping a diesel in.

[sailsmen]

Try an electric wheel chair

[babbage]

Billy you let your wife and children drive your Marauder??????????

Thats how he tests if the TC is any different than factory apparently

[sailsmen]

Thats how he tests if the TC is any different than factory apparently

One of my children learned how to drive in the MM. I only have 120K miles on a high stall.

The myth that you can't drive a high stall on the street is still a myth.

[Local Boy]

The fact is that with a centri, you can smoke the tires...all day long...if you want...and still have a great DD that is refined and smooth...

Aloha

[JoeBoomz]

About the no intercooler on a twin screw. I thought all roots styles had intercoolers.

You are correct, the roots style run intercoolers to keep the blower cool (and thus, the air, somewhat). However on a Centri, the intercooler is JUST for the air and you get lower intake air temps.

[BirchMarauder]

Are the 4.10 gear necessary? Can you use stock gears with 3000 converter and achieve some low end grunt?

[sailsmen]

Just go Nitrous, no hassels, cheap, lots of torque.

[RF Overlord]

BirchMarauder, I am far from an expert on forced induction, but maybe this will help a little:

With a Roots setup, the blower itself only moves air, it doesn't compress it; all of the compression, or "boost", takes place in the lower intake manifold. With a centrifugal blower like the Vortech and ProCharger, the blower unit actually compresses the air internally.

What all this means is that the Roots actually makes its highest boost almost right off idle, whereas the centrifugal type has to spool up to begin making significant boost levels, but, unlike the Roots, the boost doesn't fall off as RPMs increase, in fact it's the opposite: it just keeps right on building.

So to answer your question, you certainly could set up a centrifugal blower to have big boost at lower RPMs, but you would quickly run into an overboost situation as RPMs increased. The physics of the two units are different and they just don't act the same. This doesn't make one inferior to the other, they just have different strengths so pick the one that best suits your driving style.

[Local Boy]

^^^Very well put^^^

In short (IMHO):

Wild, Beast = Roots

Smooth and refined = Centri

Both, smoke the tires from a dig...

Can't go wrong...any way you go...

Aloha