Best first Mod for the MM Version 2

[Jerry Barnes]

O.K. I had not read the thread until now and I would like to share my opinion, without slinging mud, to give another viewpoint.

I responded to another thread at the Alternative Auto Forum and I would like to take the opportunity to repeat myself here.

I am not a believer in the plugs, thermostat, etc. All of the discussions I have had with all of the engineers at Ford and our own engineering staff on this subject and our own experience tells me that they are not worth the expense. SAVE YOUR MONEY!

The chip is worth doing and as long as it provides the ability to be upgraded without buying a new chip. If you decide to add 4.10 gears or a supercharger down the road the chip should be reuseable! Recalibration helps the shift points and performance of the car. I do not know if all chips can be upgraded as you add new modifications. Make sure the chips you buy have that ability. Talk to Lidio Iacobelli at Alternative Auto and Dennis Reinhart to understand this subject better.

Rear end gears are good if you are not supercharging your car. 4.10's make a nice difference off the line which is where you want better acceleration and it doesn't alter your milage much. Our experience with gears tells us we go from 24 mph with 3.55 vs. 21 mph with 4.10's. Do the chip regardless of the gear change, but make sure it can be upgraded. WORTH THE MONEY!

If you are seriously planning to supercharge your car, wait until it is done before you decide to change your rear gears. As eveyone knows we have two supercharged cars, one with 3.55's and one with 4.10's. As a daily driver I prefer the 3.55's. If you are doing a lot of street or drag racing the 4.10's help AS LONG AS YOU HAVE WIDENED YOUR REAR WHEELS AND TIRES. Supercharged cars with stock rear wheels and tires don't need 4.10's. If you are supercharger your car make sure the chip can be reflashed without spending the money for a new chip. I know Lidio's chip can support that, you will have to speak to Dennis to determine if his chip has that ability.

Transmission upgrades are a waste of money. I have had several hours of discussion with the Ford engineer responsible for the Marauder transmission and he said that even under severe use with a supercharger, the transmission should last 70-80 thousand miles. The only time it will fail is if there has been a manufacturing defect. And I have heard of several transmission failures on stock Marauders and only 1 failure on a supercharged car where the transmission was stock. If you screw with the transmission, it will screw with you!

Just to update everyone, Trilogy Car #1 has 27,427 miles without any problems with the drivetrain. Trilogy Car #2 has 17,635 miles on it without any drivetrain problems. As all of you who have driven with me know, our cars are not pampered!!! I will beat them until they break and I will report on the cause and the fix, period!

Remember, SAVE YOUR MONEY!!! You will need it to party in INDY!

Sorry I missed the earlier thread, it sounded pretty lively. Opinions are good and its worth sharing them as long as we are friends at the end of the day, right Logan?

Have a good weekend everyone!

[CRUZTAKER]

Good advice, and BTW...I hear ya! Jerry.:beer:

Sorry I missed linch with you and Dave today. I had to beat the snow coming from the west. I did...and no more than one hour after pulling in my drive it became a white out.

I'll be in town all next week, and likely the following week. Hopefully I'll catch you folks again.

[bugsys03]

;) You gotta like a guy that makes his living selling a product but doesnt want to sell you something you dont need

[TAF]

Well...as long as these threads keep getting opened up...I guess Logan won't get his car done.

Jerry, with all due respect...you say "no mudslinging"...yet you point out specific upgrades to the Marauder which are offered by one of your competing vendors on this board and you repeatedly say "SAVE YOUR MONEY!" Well, I can tell you that I've talked to my own "experts"....guys who have seen the inside and out of more 9 & 10 second, high-performance Fords & Lincolns than a LOT of folks around Dearborn...Master Techs with 20 & 25 years of building cars...and they recommend the cooler stat and cooler plugs. Now, I don't run the Densos, but I do run cooler copper plugs and I still to this day have documented the most powerful N/A Marauder on the streets.

Now do you have a nice kit...yes you do. But if I wanted to have the fastest, baddest, Marauder on the road...I'd either have a Vortec Kit or Turbo-charged Marauder...cause both of them will spank a Marauder with just your kit on it everytime. But, that's not what I'm building.

As far as the tranny issue goes...I took some of the boys from my dealer to lunch today. Spent about 2 and a half hours talking about tranny upgrades. Not a single one of them had a bad thing to say about what Dennis has put together. They ALL felt that what has been described here as the fix would be an improvement. I am also of the understanding that some folks with your kit on have had to do some tranny work...or did on their own accord. Now, this is 3rd party stuff...but please correct me if I'm wrong in thinking that a couple of them with your kit have had some tranny concerns.

Now...you guys have done a good job putting together things and making a lot of Marauder drivers happy up there. And for that, you should be commended. But the direct insults at offerings from a competitor are no longer vailed attempts but comming across as direct condemnation on another vendor here. And frankly, there are MANY more folks here that have had the pleasure and satisfaction of doing business with Dennis with nothing but thanks and admiration than have traded $s with Trilogy.

So...I guess threads like this can keep opening up....closing down....getting edited...but hopefully, folks can see 2 sides of many of the issues discussed and come to their own conclusions.

Meanwhile...my keys are available to anyone that wants to take a ride.

*the soapbox is clear*

[JET]

Want vs. Need

Does anyone really need a supercharged family sedan? No but we want it and because of this vendors are making them.

When I tell people that aren't into cars what I've done to mine they think I'm crazy. "What the hell do you need that for?" I don't need it but I did want it and now I have it. Thanks to different people with different ideas we now have 3 proven packages to choose from and several others that we're looking forward to finding out about.

IMHO people that take the time to modify there cars take a great deal of pride in their car being different than the next guys. Everyone no matter what make or model they own have varied opinions of what works best, what's worth it and what vendors they belive have the right the setups. Even the smallest mods mean something to them. When sitting at the track passing time till you run you know you love bragging about what you've done. I know I do.

I like hearing everyones opinion and in the end I'll decide what I want

Thank you for your time
John

[bigslim]

TAF, in your reply it sounds like you have spoken with more backdoor garage mechanics than engineers. I have respect for these race car builders. I have more respect for the guys that engineered the MM. If I rememeber correctly Steve Babcock even said that the transmission is good for this application. Some people that have supercharged cars are pushing the limit. Yes if you push the limit you will need some upgrading to your trannie. I also remember even Dennis stated a while back that these cars should be able to handle up to 450 hp without major upgrades. Now that has changed. You also stated that there are a lot of people that are happy with Dennis's upgrades. That is true but there are some that I have contacted that said they bought items that weren't really needed. I say to each their own. We are all here for the same thing, our admiration for this car. We are here to see the different choices offered to us. I am sure that Dennis offers good merchandise as well as Kenny Brown and Trilogy. I am glad that there are so many options for our cars. We have to remember one thing. No matter what you have or what you spent on it there is always something better.

[TripleTransAm]

Not trying to flame anyone here, nor start any mudslinging... I'll be direct and hopefully someone can answer me in a direct no-opinion-purely-fact manner in return.


I have had several hours of discussion with the Ford engineer responsible for the Marauder transmission and he said that even under severe use with a supercharger, the transmission should last 70-80 thousand miles. The only time it will fail is if there has been a manufacturing defect. And I have heard of several transmission failures on stock Marauders and only 1 failure on a supercharged car where the transmission was stock. If you screw with the transmission, it will screw with you!

I'm not sure what the above is trying to say. In a nutshell, is this to mean that when running a chip with modified shift "quality" this will result in transmission failure? I ask this because I cannot understand the progression from 'the only time it fails is due to a manufacturing defect' to 'mess with the transmission, it will mess with you'. So far the only mods I am aware of involving the transmission (torque converter upgrade notwithstanding) is the J-mod or a chip/flash mod to the shift characteristics. Please clarify this paragraph.

(edit: I just remembered the forced tail-shaft lube mod, to add to the above listed tranny mods available. Forced tail-shaft lube... damn, that's one visual I could do without....)

Also: I have read several threads touting the bullet-proof-ness (forgive my lack of imagination in inventing new words) of the 4R70W from a design perspective. I have the following to add: what good is a super design if QA can't deliver the full package to the customer? I'm sure the Space Shuttle was engineered for many many excursions through the atmosphere, yet some bad QA managed to scatter it into a thousand points of light above the Bush Homestead on re-entry a scant 12 months ago. So it goes with the 4R70W... masterfully designed components only work well when they haven't been improperly installed or forcefully damaged during assembly. So where does this leave the numerous folks with identical failures that don't seem related to modifications?

Again, I must be very clear: no flaming is intended, just a desire for some clarification on some points.

[RCSignals]

I didn't see any mudslinging in the post that started this thread. I did see one person's opinions on modding the Marauder.
Jerry Barnes to me came across as an experienced individual voicing his opinion and advise, not as a vendor peddling his product as the exclusive option.

Sometimes we tend to get too sensitive in replying to these threads I think

[sailsmen]

I can recall 3 trans failures in S/C cars reported by the owners on this board. I also recall 2 trans failures for non S/C cars reported by owners on this board.

I believe there are approx 40 S/C MM members so that is greater than an 8% failure rate for S/C cars. Of the approximately 1,060 non S/C MM members that is less than a .2% failure rate. The average road miles on the non S/C MM class is higher. I beleive the non S/C MM was available and getting mileage 8 months before the S/C MM.

My real world experience is a 2001 Econoline driven by my wife and hauling 2 small children, no cargo hauling or trailering. Trans removed and replaced @16K and it is exhibiting the same symptoms @38K.

While I have my trans out to put in a Stallion TC I am having a built trans installed. The price of the built trans is very reasonable and money well spent for me. In my work I am on the road 2 days a week in industrial type areas, middle of no where, a drive train failure that leaves me at the side of the road would be very, very expensive for me in lost time/ opportunity. I cannot afford to miss the appointment or spend several hours after the appointment broken down. I have a limited $ opportunity window from when my appointment starts.

I also realize everyones situtation is different. For some that are retired or only drive in metro areas or are in an area with lots of specialty shops to put it back together or their MM is a weekend car their needs are different.

We are fortunate to have so many good vendors with so many options for people to spend their money on what is a good value to them. In my opinon all products currently offered by the vendors on this board are money well spent for the person whose need it fills! :D :D

[TAF]

I didn't see any mudslinging in the post that started this thread. I did see one person's opinions on modding the Marauder.
Jerry Barnes to me came across as an experienced individual voicing his opinion and advise, not as a vendor peddling his product as the exclusive option.

Sometimes we tend to get too sensitive in replying to these threads I think
RC,

What I read from this post^^^and previous posts is that there is nothing else to do to a Marauder other than what's offered by Trilogy Motorsports. With specific recommendations to "SAVE YOUR MONEY!" on anything except what is offered by Trilogy (supercharging and tuning). No driveshaft, no brakes, no tranny mods, no cooler plugs and stat. It may still be cold up in Michigan...but I can smell the stench of :bs: all the way down here in Atlanta. I posted recently in another thread that showed the nice shirts Trilogy had made up for their customers....

That's VERY well done...I'd expect nothing less from Jerry Barnes...he's a class-act! I hate it when I feel I have to "eat my words".

As to this...

TAF, in your reply it sounds like you have spoken with more backdoor garage mechanics than engineers. I have respect for these race car builders. I have more respect for the guys that engineered the MM.
Not quite, bigslim. These are Certified Ford Master Technicians. Certified in Engine, Drivetrain, Chassis, etc. If you know the amount of years and training it takes to hit that Top-Level of experiance...then maybe you'd appreciate these opinions more. These are not "backdoor garage mechanics".....but the guys that have to deal with (and fix) on a day-to-day basis what can sometimes be significant "design-flaws" of the engineers that draw these cars on paper/cad-cam. Ask anyone who's delt with or visited Team Ford of Marietta about their qualifications. And as far as "engineering advice"...I think Jerry W. would qualify for that level of expertise.

Just another piece of my mind...take it or leave it.

[Jerry Barnes]

I love these debates.

TAF let me respond to a couple fostatements you made:

First, I get a lot of phone call from new or existing Marauder owners asking my opinion about several topics. And I am always willing to share my opinion which hopefully are backed up with facts. This site is dedicated to sharing informaiton and opinions from various people. This is a good thing. So please take it as an opinion from me, based on my knowledge and experience on the subject. People will evaluate it based on all of the other inputs they get. Which, once again, is good for everyone. So I am confident that this site will grow, because we all are respectful of one another and share our experiences.

Second, you disagreed with me about the comment on "plugs, thermostats, etc.". And I will say it again, show me someone that abuses their car more then we do and can draw from real world experience and measure the benefit and I will agree with you. Our experience and data says there is no real appreciable benefit. If someone wants to make those changes, it's not a problem. On the Dennis reference, my statement was regarding plugs, therostat, etc., not about who you buy them from. Anyone can go to AutoZone or PepBoys and buy these items, it doesn't have anything to do with Dennis. If you read a little further, you would have noticed I referenced Dennis and Lidio as the people to see regarding chips. Dennis and I are good friends and he has always been friendly to me, I will say it once again, we are competitors, not enemies. As a matter of fact I am currently trying to find out from some internal Ford people about a issue Dennis is having with a warranty claim. So don't turn my comments into a "Dennis" thing. That is not what I intended.

Third, I did not say you should supercharge your car. I said "if" you decide to supercharge your car, here are my recommendations. I did not say Vortec or Eaton!

Fourth, the J-mod sounds good and has proven results. For the average person using it as a daily driver, it MAY not be necessary. But, if you want to do the J-mod, it makes sense. Draw your own conclusion.

Fifth, responding to TripleTransAm, if I understand the question correctly, I was suggesting that our data and Ford's data says you should be able to beat the transmission pretty bad and it should hold up. Now let's define pretty bad. New chip changes, if done right, in our opinion should not cause the trans to fail. Supercharger installations WILL shorten the life of the trans, but hopefully not less then 70-80 thousand miles. IF and I am saying IF you want to spend the money to beef up your trans, then do it. But, I would not spend the money if you are not severely abusing your car. Chip changes for shift quality was not was I was referring to, I was referring to dismanteling the trans for the sake of worrying about a failure. In terms of the QA comment, Ford makes a very good transmission, but sometimes there may be a quality issue, it happens. I am sure Toyota, GM, Chrysler, Mercedes Benz all have their bad transmission days. You know what I mean. An opinion, SAVE YOUR MONEY.

The original post was asking what is everyone's OPINION about first mods for the MM. I was sorry I missed the first thread and I wanted to say my piece and have a little fun in the process. I'm having fun, is everyone else????

In terms of my comments about abusing our MM';s. I will post pictures of Trilogy #1 sitting out in front of our office covered with about a foot of snow, salt and dirt for you to get the idea. And I street race it every time the pavement is dry!

So, TAF and Dennis, we are friends and I love you big lugs!!! Keep those opinions coming.

Aren't you glad I reopened this thread?????

I th

[TripleTransAm]

IF and I am saying IF you want to spend the money to beef up your trans, then do it. But, I would not spend the money if you are not severely abusing your car.

Thanks for the reply... let me see if I understand where you're going.

So what you're saying is that, according to your experience and feedback, one shouldn't sit at home worried that a little spirited driving will have their 4R70W puking pink all over the county road? Makes sense, in line with what you've said about the 4R70W being able to handle the load. I can accept this.

But I guess I'm trying to understand what's your view on the issues such as excessive tailshaft wear and damage, and the flimsy clip that allows the tranny's guts to shift dramatically and fail? I would imagine that you could categorize the clip issue (along with other improperly installed - ie. force-fit - components) as "bad quality days" and consider any corrective measures as "repairs" and not "upgrades". But then it's a matter of investigating just how common this type of assembly problem is among recent 4R70W construction.

I guess my point is that your viewpoint seems to differ from Dennis' when it comes to these glitches. I wonder how many 4R70Ws have been opened up where NO clip or tailshaft problem was apparent. Right now I haven't heard of any specific case where everything looked perfect on dissassembly... I'm eagerly awaiting a bigger picture.

And if it turns out that recent assembly line (mal)practices have cheapened the 4R70W, well then it doesn't really matter if it was rated for 400 lb-ft or 4000 lb-ft, it still isn't doing the job RIGHT NOW. This is what I'm trying to get out of all of this...

[TAF]

So, TAF and Dennis, we are friends and I love you big lugs!!! Love ya too, Jerry;)

And glad to see you think the "J-mod" could be a good idea. No false statements on my part...just facts. Simple bolt-on mods + computer programming has me at 295 RWHP and 320 RWTQ from a baseline of 241RWHP & 261RWTQ...cooler plugs and 'stat, included :up:

[MARAUDERCHICK]

I'm agreeing with TAF (Todd)...I've met these tech's at Team Ford in Marietta....these or no "backdoor garage mechanics"....

When in doubt, take a test drive....Throw em' the keys Todd! ;)

[MARAUDERCHICK]

Ooops!! spellcheck would have been good here....

"these or no backdoor......" should be these are no "backdoor garage mechanics"

Oh well.....they know their stuff!

[deerejoe]

Well, without seeming misguided, I have to post my first reply on this new format...

The VENDORS on this site are by nature and experience selling WARES that they believe offer the best solution for your desires of optimizing the MMs performance; based upon results determined through dyno stats and track/road tests.
Having said that, they are NOT responsible for the initial design and manufacture of the OEM (Marauder) product as delivered from Ford Motor Company.

Each vendor has different opinions and observations as to their individual experience(s) with the mods they offer, whether its a kit or an assemblage of components.
If all the OEM systems hold together with whatever variation of mods installed for a reasonable period/mileage/abuse factor, then it works for THAT PARTICULAR CAR.

As for ALL MMs...its more likely 'luck of the draw'.
I can experience a systems failure without having ANY mods!! And so can anyone. Thats just the bane of man made mechanicals.

I have and still do, sit back and watch CLOSELY what the rest of you people are doing to your cars. Its your car, money and business.

From my perspective, I am most appreciative of all the input from the various vendors. I would be the first to recognize their competetive zeal in selling their products. Thats free enterprise at its best.

However, when and IF I do ANY mods it will be with more facts now than before all these vendors began marketing their performance wares.

Warranty issues aside, I can fully understand the proprietary concerns the OEM engineers have regarding their designs. On the one hand they have to believe in the initial design being sound for what the part or system is intended for...and on the other, what the 'end user' will do to enhance/abuse it. Engineers are inherently conservative. I have no problem with that either.

We want to take further steps that may or not be prudent...mechanically speaking. We hopefully rely on the vendor/mechanic ability to steer us on the "right" path to achieving our desires for enhanced performance.
Some are willing and able to expend whatever sums to reach that goal.
Others, myself included, are more reluctant to "do too much" either due to cost or just common sensibilities.

If in the course of reaching a decision regarding to mod or not, it is most helpful to know the minimum and maximum levels available and how each mod impacts the OEM design.
This is how I have read and understood each vendors remarks.

Personally, if I were to expend the money to MAXIMIZE the performance of my MM, I would make it as "bullet-proof" as possible.
Ford would love to engineer an automobile like that, but I seriously doubt that I could afford it!!
So, the choice is left to our vendors to step in and take up the slack at an affordable price. They just want to cover all the bases to make us happy.
And I don't have a problem with that either!!

Just bear in mind that YOU are in the drivers seat and what you do is completely your call.

[RCSignals]

RC,

What I read from this post^^^and previous posts is that there is nothing else to do to a Marauder other than what's offered by Trilogy Motorsports. With specific recommendations to "SAVE YOUR MONEY!" on anything except what is offered by Trilogy (supercharging and tuning). No driveshaft, no brakes, no tranny mods, no cooler plugs and stat. It may still be cold up in Michigan...but I can smell the stench of :bs: all the way down here in Atlanta. I posted recently in another thread that showed the nice shirts Trilogy had made up for their customers....
I hate it when I feel I have to "eat my words".




Well Todd, sorry, but I don't read it that way. I just read it as one man's opinions on mods.
If it was Jerry Barnes intention to convince me that Triology is the only way to go, he failed miserably, because I just didn't get an overwhelming urge that I would just have to buy from them and them alone.

[bigslim]

Todd, I hope that I didn't make you mad with my post. All I wanted to say was that there are a lot of choices on this site thanks to all the vendors here. It is up to the individual to what he or she wants. I am sure that there will be some that do major mods and have nothing go wrong with their car. There will also be some that have done nothing, as we have seen, and need major repairs. I guess if someone wants to try and safeguard their MM then they should. I have not met you Todd but I still love you too!!

[SergntMac]

I just read it as one man's opinions on mods.
If it was Jerry Barnes intention to convince me that Triology is the only way to go, he failed miserably, because I just didn't get an overwhelming urge that I would just have to buy from them and them alone.

There are two things an effective salesman strives to accomplish.

One is to sell you his product.

Two is to make sure you do not buy any similar product from a competing company.

What do you read, Duncan?

[TripleTransAm]

I have not met you Todd but I still love you too!!


Aw guys, get a ROOM!
:help:

For a moment there I thought I was in the Volkswagen New Beetle forum...
:uzi: :beatnik:

[RF Overlord]

Warranty issues aside, I can fully understand the proprietary concerns the OEM engineers have regarding their designs. On the one hand they have to believe in the initial design being sound for what the part or system is intended for...and on the other, what the 'end user' will do to enhance/abuse it. Engineers are inherently conservative. I have no problem with that either.

Remember, too, that an engineer who is perfectly competent may design a part or system that is the best possible, then a bean counter, who probably drives a Suzuki Aerio, or a Kia Sephia, will look at it and say: "Nope, too expensive"..."nope, that goes"..."nope, we can get it from another supplier for 3 cents less per thousand"...etc...and the final result is a pitiful compromise that is an embarrassment to the original engineer...hence the need for aftermarket "mods"...

[Logan]

Here's my two pennies on the subject.

These trannies were designed to handle stock output levels and weren't intended to handle 500hp motors. I don't care what anyone says, I've been around long enough in the Lightning/Mustang/classic car scene to know that it's silly to build a 500hp motor and put a stock transmission behind it. I won't do it, it's just asking for trouble.

We obviously know manufacturing on these trannies is hit and miss in terms of build quality and casting quality. So, personally, I'd much rather pull apart a healthy tranny and inspect/upgrade it rather than replace the tranny because I threw an additional 200hp over stock on it and it roasted the disks because a $2 snap ring failed.

If Jerry and the Alternative folks have had no problem with their trannies, I submit it's a matter of time and measure of luck that's gotten Trilogy #1 this far. Too many of us have had tranny failures due to manufacturing problems or sub-par components. SO to me, it makes sense to pull your transmission apart if you're supercharging, if for no other reason than to verify the quality and condition of components. So heck, if you're already in there, why not upgrade the obvious things that are weak in the tranny? Only makes sense.

So, personally, I don't care what anyone says, I'm making up my own mind based on my own experience, which tells me running a motor making damn near 200hp over stock at the crank on a stock tranny is plain stupid, especially considering the manufacturing quality. I'll go spend my money on some peace of mind rather than on a new transmission thanks.

So, in closing, I encourage everyone to make up their own mind. If this is your first car that you're modifying, rely on the experiences put forth on this board and some good 'ol common sense.

Everyone please play nice in this thread, opinions are opinions, don't take them personally and be respectful with your responses please.

[jgc61sr2002]

Logan - Your analogy make a lot of sense. I agree totally. :up:

[Haggis]

Thank you Logan!! :up:

[Jerry Barnes]

O.K. you guys, I'm supercharging my New VW Beetle, but I am leaving the trans stock(ha ha ha)!!! I'll stop by and pick everyone up on the way to Woodstock!!!

Peace Brothers and Sisters!!! :D

[TAF]

Todd, I hope that I didn't make you mad with my post....I have not met you Todd but I still love you too!!
Me mad? Naw...but I did get 17 PMs from Marty saying..."what is this with bigslim"...you know how he (Marty) idolizes me...I think you just made him a little jealous...;)

Marty...for the LAST time...I'm a happily married man...you "rainbow-mod-lister"

[SergntMac]

O.K. you guys, I'm supercharging my New VW Beetle, but I am leaving the trans stock(ha ha ha)!!! I'll stop by and pick everyone up on the way to Woodstock!!! Peace Brothers and Sisters!!! :D

You know the engine is in front now...

[BlackHole]

You know the engine is in front now...

Who says he didn't mod it to be even more retro. :lol: :lol:

[Lidio]

I’m only going to chime in on this one about the 4R70W stuff.

As I said in my own vender thread; the 4R70W can take a lot more torque and horsepower then most would imagine or believe when totally stock and unopened, other then a pan-drop for a shift improver of some kind.

As long as it’s shifting firm enough, they require no major hard part changes what so ever to tolerate in the neiberhood of 500HP plus at the rear wheels.

I’ve done this countless times in the last several years. It’s not luck that the Trilogy owned cars and their customers up till now (which I understand really hasn’t been that long yet since most of their installs) haven’t had a failure or are on boworred time. Yes I won’t rule out a “misbuild” or a weakened running production change that I’m not familure with or just haven’t seen in the last year or so.
But all the AOD-E’s and 4R70W’s I have behind significant horse powered cars are doing very well. Whether it’s a built up complete core or a stock unit that’s just had its shifting firmed up through a chip and/or shift-kit.

Trilogy number ONE has been truly great in seeing the 4R70W’s toughness.
That car was treated this past season like it was handed to a spoiled teenager or used as a rental car!!!!! Although as long as OD is turned off when really trashing it, it doenst surprise me its done this well.

When we make an AOD-E or 4R70W what we call H.D. or bullet proof we do not change any major hard parts at all, no stub shaft and no forced rear lube. Only insure that it has 4 clutches in the 2nd gear clutch pack, and good clutches through out. (MM’s already do have 4 clutches in 2nd) and we firm up the shifts with Baumann shift kits. Plus we tell our customers with and with out our built trannys to use them as a three speeds only when being real abusive or racing (because overdrive is the weak one).I actually had an after market H.D. stub shaft in one of my own Mustangs with an AOD-E that was only making at the time around 650RWHP and it broke the after market stub shaft!!
We then went back to the stock stub shaft (which held up longer now and with more power) and that Mustang now makes 780RWHP with a 360 cu in stroked 302 and lots of NOS. We figured the aftermarket stub shaft was just too hard or bridle. Our thoughts at the time was the stock one actually toritioned more and flexed to some degree rather then just snapping?

As far as the Trilogy number one car goes… Really even if it did have a 4R70W trans failure off some kind…. Who’s to bit%h at this point? It’s hard to convey this to our readers but it has seen more abuse then one could ever imagine in the last 26K+ miles. Realistically what does one expect from such a relatively compact rear drive automatic. Not trying to make excuses for it or my beliefs with it… but it can’t be expected for something like this to go 100,000 miles if it’s being raced or abused all the time with really big HP added to it. These are the risks we take when moding our street cars.

There are tuners and installers out there that are convincing people that supercharging the weak pistons in today’s 4.6L motors are taking an incredible risk and it won’t last. So does this mean that no one will consider a blower addition on their current 4.6 until they do a forged piston upgrade?? I don’t think so. This at minimum with labor and parts is at least a $5000 job ( I mean to pay a shop for the whole job, A-Z) . We found that if you don’t detonate (tune it right) these weak pistoned motors last a very long time. You know what I say to those tuners: “Get your tune right and except the fact that it will make 30-50 less at the rear wheels and don’t worry about being such a tuning hero all the time”. Those tuners (if there still around have seemed to back off on those beliefs I noticed lately because it probably cost them to much in lost blower sales or other tuners who know what’s going on… got the business.


If Ford was to make the MM supercharged in some way, you can bet that their standards wouldn’t allow the 4R70W in any way in that car (as much I think it holds up well), unless the blower only bumps the power maybe to 330 or 350 HP. And with their warranty issues and how much people would over boost the thing after the sale, it would have to come with the heavy 4R100 truck trans which is just a fat big of a trans for a MM in my opinion.

Just my 3 cents… I think its worth more then 2.


Thanks

[TripleTransAm]

You know the engine is in front now...

Engine? The new Beetle has an engine? All these years I thought they just found a way to transmit power to the front wheels from the power window motors... *shrug*

[Jerry Barnes]

O.K. Since we have all shared our opinions and not many facts have jump out. I have a suggestion. Why don't we do a survey that addresses powertrain upgrades, reliability and issues. We have had surveys on hair color, geographic locations, age, sex(male or female), color of your car, etc.

Why don't we survey
- supercharged vs. stock
- chipped vs. stock
- transmission upgrades
- torque converters
- Drive shafts
- Rear gear chages
- Brakes

I am sure we can find someone to help adminster the data and give this site membership real world results from the street.

I responded to the thread about opinions on first mods to our MM's, the I get embroiled into a reliability discussion and then I'm trying to interpret SergntMac's responses about a salesman?

We all have a variety of experiences with our cars and how we drive them. Why don't we share and report hard data?

Without getting beat up too bad, what is everyone's opinion?
What does everyone think?

[BlackHole]

O.K. Since we have all shared our opinions and not many facts have jump out. I have a suggestion. Why don't we do a survey that addresses powertrain upgrades, reliability and issues. We have had surveys on hair color, geographic locations, age, sex(male or female), color of your car, etc.

Why don't we survey
- supercharged vs. stock
- chipped vs. stock
- transmission upgrades
- torque converters
- Drive shafts
- Rear gear chages
- Brakes

I am sure we can find someone to help adminster the data and give this site membership real world results from the street.

I responded to the thread about opinions on first mods to our MM's, the I get embroiled into a reliability discussion and then I'm trying to interpret SergntMac's responses about a salesman?

We all have a variety of experiences with our cars and how we drive them. Why don't we share and report hard data?

Without getting beat up too bad, what is everyone's opinion?
What does everyone think?

Well mines 100 % stock just have a K&N drop in only and I'm doing my socalled Phase 1 which is TB/4.10's/JDM chip/and NGK plugs just a slight cooler range over stock not much. should see a good 35 HP and about the same for torque as far as the 70 series tranny goes I would probably do a R100 swap from a 2nd gen L as the 4.6 and 5.4 share so much in design. they both bolt right up don't know what's involved with the linkage? Since the Lightning has a colum shifter as opposed to the MM console location.
Keep talking Jerry you just might sell another Kit :banana2: But theres 2 request I would want if I purchase 1st 2003 Cobra internals= Pistons/Rods/Crank and 2nd send the Eaton to Apten to have them port and polish it and have 15 PSI of boost.

[FordNut]

Gee, it wasn't long ago we just wished there was something, or anything, out there for performance enhancement. We've come a long way in the last year or so!

[Jerry Barnes]

BlackHole,

If you want feedback on the Cobra internals and the ported supercharger, talk to Lidio(586)463-0010, he has experience with both of those mods.

Thanks for the note!

Any problems?

How do you drive your car?

What part of the country are you from?

Thanks!!

[RCSignals]

There are two things an effective salesman strives to accomplish.

One is to sell you his product.

Two is to make sure you do not buy any similar product from a competing company.

What do you read, Duncan?

Well maybe I'm just stupid, or Jerry Barnes is a lousy salesman, but I didn't read either.

I did read "SAVE YOUR MONEY!!! You will need it to party in INDY!"

So I won't be buying a supercharger now

[BlackHole]

BlackHole,

If you want feedback on the Cobra internals and the ported supercharger, talk to Lidio(586)463-0010, he has experience with both of those mods.

Thanks for the note!

Any problems?

How do you drive your car?

What part of the country are you from?

Thanks!!
Ohio about 80 miles South of Cleveland.
You meet me twice 1 at FFW at Norwalk Ohio and 2 at Rush LM MM round up Columbus Ohio But I say 60% just normal driving 40% Hard/Track time done about 45 passes 1/4th and 1/8th tracks. Best 1/4th is in sig best at my local 1/8th was a 10.233 at 73.6 MPH

But no prob's so far just that my leather on the back of my steering wheel came out on the passangerside connection to the wheel where the radio/enviro buttons are . But I like JDM for 1 reason He worked for Ford in they'er ECC's so he knows how to extract the most out of they'er programming. He's currently trying to get past the new noport access that Ford has out now. But really no mechanical problems what so ever just minor Fit& Finish the only other thing was my bar between the pass. vent and radio was scratched so had to replace the whole molding thing but thats whats warr. are for. After testing the RX8 which was the other car I was really looking at I'm glad to report the MM is even more my style as it was just as fast if not a little faster over the 2900 LB Mazda :eek:
But the main reason I got the MM was I always liked the 94/96 Imp SS but just graduating from High School there was no way I could afford a $27,000 car at the time. So Mercury gave me a 2nd chance sort of speak. Jerry if you need a mule for testing any thing new let me know. :up: :up: And its all about choices as if everyone had the same thing it would get awfully boring quick.

[Logan]

This thread is done and gone off-topic. Please don't let me see a version 3.

Though as a side note, I like Jerry's idea about abstractly tracking major component failures. I'm going to see how much work's involved in me setting up some way for folks to report that data anonymously to a webpage here that would allow people to view the hard data without identifying folks.