First No Start, Now No Nothing

[tbone]

Last winter I had a couple of no start conditions. No starts only happen when it's really cold outside, but I've had a few long crank times when the temps are up as well. Since then I thought I solved the problem by:

1. New IAC
2. Cleaned MAF
3. Cleaned intake
4. New fuel filter
5. Plugs have 40k on them
6. Air filter is clean

It was starting fine all winter until today.

I can hear the pump cycle when I turn on the ignition. A couple times it started to catch a little. Seems like no fuel is getting through. Can the pump be bad even though you can hear it cycle?

I know I've posted this before, but any further help is appreciated.

[Bradley G]

My pump would still sing with the key in the on position, JBob data logged the FP's duty cycle @85% at Idle.
You remember, I couldn't race the one Great Lakes DW outing we had last season.

[MOTOWN]

I would start by checking the feul pressure at the shrader valve on the fuel rail

[tbone]

Special guage needed? What pressure should it be at?

[Green96]

I think it should show about 32 PSI....anyone else know for sure?

The pump on my old Thunderturd worked, but one of the check valves did not work right all of the time. On starts where the check valve had let pressure bleed off I had to crank the car for a long time. The pressure should hold in the fuel rail when the car is off. On the Thunderturd there was a check valve in the fuel pressure regulator, and one in the fuel pump. It will let you guess which one is cheaper to replace and which one I needed. Once replaced the car started easy every time.

Running a heavy dose of Sea foam might help free up a check valve problem if yours is loosing pressure between some starts.

[tbone]

Thanks for the info.

BradleyG is going to come over and do a datalog and check the fuel pump.
With 132k I wouldn't doubt that that is the problem.

[tbone]

Screw it. I ordered a new pump. Walbro 255 lph. $99.

[guspech750]

Screw it. I ordered a new pump. Walbro 255 lph. $99.

Look at that. Your first Eaton swap part buddy!!!


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[tbone]

So the car wouldn't start yesterday and I wore down the battery in the process of cranking it. So I charged it overnight at 2 amps and now I just get 1 click when I try to start it. The headlights and interior lights are bright, so I don't think it's the battery. I suppose it still could be.:confused:
Maybe I blew the starter solenoid relay #302? (You can't tell just by looking at it.) But then I don't think it would click. Any ideas?

[guspech750]

I would try a new battery.


But......................it did not start before you killed the battery. Did you install your new fuel pump?

[tbone]

I ordered a Walbro 255 lph online today for $99. Probably have it by next Friday or so.

Why would the lights be bright if the battery is bad?

[guspech750]

I ordered a Walbro 255 lph online today for $99. Probably have it by next Friday or so.

Why would the lights be bright if the battery is bad?
Im not sure. Just enough juice to power lights but not enough to crank. But I just replaced the battery in our Aspen after the truck not starting. I recharged the battery and it lasted for one start of the truck. But................... the lights still came on nice and bright.

I bought a new battery and everything is good to go.

[Gryphonzus]

Because they do not draw nearly as much current as starting the car. You might want to clean and tighten the battery posts and clamps. I have had that problem before where they are so dirty they do not make a good connection. You could also have a dead cell in the battery which still gives good lights but no current for starting. Good luck! Hope you find the problem soon.

[tbone]

Because they do not draw nearly as much current as starting the car. You might want to clean and tighten the battery posts and clamps. I have had that problem before where they are so dirty they do not make a good connection. You could also have a dead cell in the battery which still gives good lights but no current for starting. Good luck! Hope you find the problem soon.

I always keep the posts spotless, so that's not it. I was also thinking that a cell might be dead, but I thought that the lights would be dim.

[tbone]

Is the dealer the only place to buy a Motorcraft battery?

[Spectragod]

I always keep the posts spotless, so that's not it. I was also thinking that a cell might be dead, but I thought that the lights would be dim.

You need to verify voltage at the battery, voltage with the lights on and voltage when trying to crank.

It can be a bad cell, you would need to charge overnight and check the battery for state of charge and state of health the next day.

Keep in mind, many things can cause this condition, one step at a time, but you have to know the condition of the battery first.

[guspech750]

Is the dealer the only place to buy a Motorcraft battery?
I doubt it. I know others have used different brand batteries.

[tbone]

I doubt it. I know others have used different brand batteries.

I want to stay with Motorcraft FTW.

[tbone]

You need to verify voltage at the battery, voltage with the lights on and voltage when trying to crank.

It can be a bad cell, you would need to charge overnight and check the battery for state of charge and state of health the next day.

Keep in mind, many things can cause this condition, one step at a time, but you have to know the condition of the battery first.

I'll pop it out and take it over to be tested. Thanks.

[Blackened300a]

I ordered a Walbro 255 lph online today for $99. Probably have it by next Friday or so.

Why would the lights be bright if the battery is bad?

You need voltage and amps to crank. The battery may have enough volts to turn on the lights and everything else but not enough amps to turn the engine over. I had that happen on several occasions. All the lights work, but not enough amp to crank it over. Get a new battery.

[Comin' in Hot]

Stupid question, but did you turn the key off and on a bunch of times?..... I did this with mine once and I deactivated the key

[tbone]

Stupid question, but did you turn the key off and on a bunch of times?..... I did this with mine once and I deactivated the key

I did. Only a few times to try to get the fuel pump going. How many times do you have to do it to deactivate the key?

[tbone]

I tried my spare key. Didn't work.

[Comin' in Hot]

IIRC it's like 7 times, and there is a sequence to reactivate them using both keys and the door lock switch

[MOTOWN]

Special guage needed? What pressure should it be at?

Just fuel pressure gauge for a shrader valve, not sure what the pressure should be at, may want to refer to the shop manual, just to confirm it is the pump before you bother to replace it.

[greggash]

you can just see if there is pressure in the line while the car is off.
it should hold pressure.
so if you just poke the shrader valve gas should come out under pressure, I suggest using a raq to catch the flow.
if there is no flow from the valve, then your pump is mostlikely bad or there is another problem in the fuel system.

just my 2 cents

[justbob]

If the check valve in the pump isn't holding enough pressure in the fuel line the car will never start. Not sure what it is in a MM, but have run into this on vortec chevy's. If a vortec does not have precisely 62 PSI at engine crank, it will not start. If you still have the original battery, change it as its life span has long since come and gone anyways.

[sailsmen]

Check the batt ground. Sounds like you may have several problems although all may not be occurring at the same time.

[tbone]

If the check valve in the pump isn't holding enough pressure in the fuel line the car will never start. Not sure what it is in a MM, but have run into this on vortec chevy's. If a vortec does not have precisely 62 PSI at engine crank, it will not start. If you still have the original battery, change it as its life span has long since come and gone anyways.

I don't think it's the original battery. But it's the same one for the last 4yr, 3 mos.

O'Reilly sells the Motorcraft 850 cca for $129, so off I go as soon as I get these old bones moving........

I read that someone bought that same battery in 2005 for $79. $50 increase in only 7 years? WTF?????

[boatmangc]

I don't think it's the original battery. But it's the same one for the last 4yr, 3 mos.

O'Reilly sells the Motorcraft 850 cca for $129, so off I go as soon as I get these old bones moving........

I read that someone bought that same battery in 2005 for $79. $50 increase in only 7 years? WTF?????

I sell quite a few batteries, The prices have skyrocketed in the last few years. I get charged $12 for cores.!

[tbone]

Had the battery tested and it is fine. Cleaned the terminals, checked the ground to the left of the battery, seemed good. Still just one click.

Any other ideas?

[tbone]

you can just see if there is pressure in the line while the car is off.
it should hold pressure.
so if you just poke the shrader valve gas should come out under pressure, I suggest using a raq to catch the flow.
if there is no flow from the valve, then your pump is mostlikely bad or there is another problem in the fuel system.

just my 2 cents

I poked the valve and only a tiny bit of fuel came out.

[capt512]

They check the CCA as well as the voltage when they tested the battery? Some shops (my local vatozone) look at the voltage and if thats good then they say ok and don't check the CCA. I took my car in twice with bright lights but slow to start then one day no start without jump (was sudden as far as the no start) and both times they said they battery was fine... I then took it in one last time figuring what the hey, and got a different guy who I told to run the full system test on it. The voltage was still good but the CCA were around 225...aka battery was bad. Replaced and now starts like a dream...plus no more flickering of the lights at night. Just a thought

[tbone]

Good advice. The guy did seem like kind of a chucklehead. I didn't ask any questions about the test.

In the meantime, I hooked up a battery charger I have that also analyzes the battery and will tell you if it is ok or not. I'm not sure if it tests the cca or not.

I think I might just get a Farm and Fleet battery. 880 cca for $79 instead of $129 for the Motorcraft name. $50 is a big difference and the warranty is just as good. I'll just transfer the old stickers over to the new battery.:coolman:

[capt512]

I was able to get mine to start for a while quickly if I left it on a trickle charger over night, but after a few days off it was back to the 2 crank starts. I know advance auto is supposed to print off a reciept for you as well when they test it and it will say the cca, voltage, etc on it. If you have one in your area. I tested mine on a volt meter over and over and everything showed good, but I didn't have a way to test cranking amps...don't know if your battery analyzer will or not. For the record my green ball that shows on the top of some of the batteries was still green as well.

[tbone]

I was able to get mine to start for a while quickly if I left it on a trickle charger over night, but after a few days off it was back to the 2 crank starts. I know advance auto is supposed to print off a reciept for you as well when they test it and it will say the cca, voltage, etc on it. If you have one in your area. I tested mine on a volt meter over and over and everything showed good, but I didn't have a way to test cranking amps...don't know if your battery analyzer will or not. For the record my green ball that shows on the top of some of the batteries was still green as well.

It's gotta be the damn battery. I wore it down trying to start the car and now the car is dead. It's the only thing that makes sense. Off I go.......

Those green balls are usually wrong. lol

[tbone]

New battery did not fix it.

I wonder if the starter fried?

[Blackened300a]

New battery did not fix it.

I wonder if the starter fried?

Possible, try tapping on the body and solenoid lightly with a mallet. Any moisture inside may have froze and locked up the starter.

[Comin' in Hot]

If it doesn't crank I would start by reprogramming your keys. It's not gonna cost anything.

[Comin' in Hot]

Where are you at exactly? Does anything come on? Does the fuel pump run? Do you have any power at the starter?

[tbone]

Possible, try tapping on the body and solenoid lightly with a mallet. Any moisture inside may have froze and locked up the starter.

Still just clicks. I'm going to order a starter from Rock Auto. $65.

[tbone]

Where are you at exactly? Does anything come on? Does the fuel pump run? Do you have any power at the starter?

Everything comes on. Fuel pump fires up. There must be power at the starter because that is what clicks one time when I turn the key. The starter probably fried from all the cranking from the fuel pump going bad.
My son tried to start it for me when he was shoveling snow and I have a sneaky suspicion he cranked it too long. When I finally came out to try, the battery was really low, and it has always been super strong.

[Spectragod]

After checking the battery, and the battery is OK, the next thing would be to verify that the grounds to the body and motor are good, i.e., ohm them out with a DVOM.

Another common problem, mostly seen on fleet cars, is either a bad connection at the starter, either the lug or the cable, or the starter itself.

[Comin' in Hot]

If your connections are good, I would try tapping on the starter with a hammer, starters get hung up sometimes, I've done that on everything from my astro van to a brand new International 7600 truck, it works for me about 75% of the time.

[tbone]

Got the old starter out. The electrical connection between the solenoid and the motor was badly corroded. I wonder why it's not sealed from the elements? I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. New one should be here in a couple days. Now on to removing the old fuel pump. New one is promised for Friday.

I hate it when my car is broken.:alone:

[babbage]

I think mine has a plastic assy on top of where the wires connect to it. I cleaned mine, wrapped in DEI Heat wrap and sprayed WD-40 on the wires & contacts to help keep it clean.

Its a lot harder to install a starter with longtubes!

[tbone]

Yes the connections are covered, but there is an exposed braided wire that goes from the solenoid to the motor. Just like the braided wire used to ground the car.

[babbage]

so does it start? :)

[tbone]

The wire crumbled in my fingers.

[tbone]

so does it start? :)

Waiting on starter and fuel pump. Just getting a head start.

[babbage]

I think you need some AMSOIL - HD Metal protect too. The rust on that stater is pretty severe. I put metal protect on my whole frame/underneath.

At least you found out why it wasn't starting!

[tbone]

Nearly 10 years and 132k in the salt will do that. I bought the car at 92k so.............

[justbob]

I think mine has a plastic assy on top of where the wires connect to it. I cleaned mine, wrapped in DEI Heat wrap and sprayed WD-40 on the wires & contacts to help keep it clean.

Its a lot harder to install a starter with longtubes!

Not my long tubes.. :)

[tbone]

Hmmmm.....makes me re-think the headers dream.:rolleyes:

[Spectragod]

The wire crumbled in my fingers.

I bet that has a lot to do with the "no start" issue.:rolleyes:

At least you got it off without breaking the bolts.:D

[guspech750]

Alright Tom!! Way to go!!


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Eaton Swap + 4.10's = Wreeeeeeeeeedom!!

[Bradley G]

wanna sell it?:lol:

[tbone]

I bet that has a lot to do with the "no start" issue.:rolleyes:

At least you got it off without breaking the bolts.:D

Oh believe me, broken/stripped starter bolts entered my mind more than once........:eek:

[sailsmen]

Now that I see the pics I remember in the past another member had the same problem. Good luck with the fix.

IF your gas mileage is poor you may want to look at the O2 sensors while you are under the car.

[tbone]

Now that I see the pics I remember in the past another member had the same problem. Good luck with the fix.

IF your gas mileage is poor you may want to look at the O2 sensors while you are under the car.

Thanks. I changed them last fall.

[Da Dark Jedi]

I cleaned mine, wrapped in DEI Heat wrap and sprayed WD-40 on the wires & contacts to help keep it clean.



You use a Water Displacement to keep electrical contacts clean??? Why not use this.


http://deoxit.com/

A LOT better than WD40.

You could use these;

1) Deoxit D5 series to clean #D5S-6

2) Deoxit Grease L260 to protect or the spray shield

[tbone]

I was thinking of just putting some dielectric grease over the connections before I put the rubber boot on.

[tbone]

What's with the pump filter element? I just paid $20 for one at Autozone. What a rip!

[guspech750]

What's with the pump filter element? I just paid $20 for one at Autozone. What a rip!

You are helping the economy and Communist China!! Be proud my friend!!


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- Sent from my iPhone
Eaton Swap + 4.10's = Wreeeeeeeeeedom!!

[tbone]

Got the new starter installed and she fired right up. Stronger than ever. I think my starter was going bad for a while and I got used to it slowly slowing down.

Apparently the fuel pump is intermittently bad. I checked the fuel rail pressure after she ran and it shot right out. I'm going to check in an hour or two and see if the pressure bleeds down. Regardless the new GT40 pump is on its way from Jersey.

I glopped a bunch of dielectric grease over the connections before snapping the cover on, so I hope this is the last starter I ever buy. (It looks like way more grease in the pic than I actually put on.)

Kudos to Rock Auto for quick shipping (3 days) and a great deal. $75 shipped. Made in China for Tyco, but hey, I can't afford a Motorcraft starter. (And it's probably made in China too!)

[guspech750]

Got the new starter installed and she fired right up. Stronger than ever. I think my starter was going bad for a while and I got used to it slowly slowing down.

Apparently the fuel pump is intermittently bad. I checked the fuel rail pressure after she ran and it shot right out. I'm going to check in an hour or two and see if the pressure bleeds down. Regardless the new GT40 pump is on its way from Jersey.

I glopped a bunch of dielectric grease over the connections before snapping the cover on, so I hope this is the last starter I ever buy. (It looks like way more grease in the pic than I actually put on.)

Kudos to Rock Auto for quick shipping (3 days) and a great deal. $75 shipped. Made in China for Tyco, but hey, I can't afford a Motorcraft starter. (And it's probably made in China too!)
Alright TOM!!!:banana2:

[babbage]

Looking Good - you didn't clean off the starter bolts? I stuck a piece of DEI heat wrap to the larger cylinder, and overlapped it in such a way that it helps protect the wires and soloniod. (just an idea for you when the headers go on..) :)


I had my fuel pump replaced recently.. (shop did the work) anyway I ended up getting the universal screen from RockAuto - I think it was about $4.00 -- you may want to order one of those new too.

[tbone]

I put anti-seize on the bolts. Good enough I think.

I bought a fuel pump screen at Autozone for $20. I was shocked at the price.

Edit: I just went to the website that I got the pump at, and I noticed it comes with an install kit which pictures the filter, so I can take it back. Cool.

[Da Dark Jedi]

What site did you order the fuel pump from? You did say it was the GT40 pump correct?

[tbone]

Yep, I went to test the fuel pressure and there was hardly a dribble.

[tbone]

What site did you order the fuel pump from? You did say it was the GT40 pump correct?


Walbro makes the pump for the GT40.

http://www.jdsperformance.com/index.asp?initemuid=436&fcmd=item&inmake=0

Tell Artie I sent you (Tom Treanor) and mention this site. Maybe they can become a vendor.

[tbone]

Put the new fuel pump in today. Kind of a PITA, but very straightforward. Car starts and runs like a champ! I'm happy again!:D

Thanks for the advice justbob!

[guspech750]

Put the new fuel pump in today. Kind of a PITA, but very straightforward. Car starts and runs like a champ! I'm happy again!:D
Wooooooooooooooooo Hoooooooooooooooooooo:banana2:


Way to go Tommy Boy!!!

[tbone]

Got the Steeda's installed today. Thanks to Guspech for selling them to me and to yjmud for helping with the install! Made a real nice improvement in performance!:banana2:

[guspech750]

Wooooooooooooooooo Hoooooooooooooooooooo:banana2:

Way to rock out!!


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[yjmud]

Got the Steeda's installed today. Thanks to Guspech for selling them to me and to yjmud for helping with the install! Made a real nice improvement in performance!:banana2:

no problem glad I could help :beer: