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N40GL
04-22-2012, 03:13 PM
I never posted first in a forum before - let me grab my chance now.

As Mary said in Louisville, we'll be doing road course driving at MVX (at Gingerman (http://www.gingermanraceway.com/), a great track). I've been driving road courses for around 19 years (and associated with them for more than 25) - if I can help, just ask.

First Rule: Look where you're going (or want to be), not where you are.

CBT
04-22-2012, 03:16 PM
We will run on this correct?

http://www.gingermanraceway.com/files/images/Gingermantrack_map_2011.jpg

Davesvt2000
04-22-2012, 03:39 PM
I've run Gingerman three times, it is a beautiful track. The hotel was only ten minutes away, and downtown South Haven, there is a great restaurant Clementine's to eat at...

LOWBUCKMM
04-22-2012, 06:23 PM
I will be going to mvx just for the road course. I have always wanted to run my car on one. Got to get a front sway bar and new shocks for it. Can't wait. Umm when is it again.

FastMerc
04-22-2012, 06:36 PM
You were talking about helmuts what style is requirerd?

SergntMac
04-23-2012, 03:52 AM
You were talking about helmuts what style is requirerd?

I cannot speak for track management, or, the safety team running the MVX event. I am not in charge of this.

However, it has been my experience that a Snell approved helmet may be/will be/is required. Presently, a Snell 2010 helmet is the requirement in road-course traffic, and the Snell approval is dated 2010.

Personally, I prefer an open face, or, 3/4 face, style, because it allows for my advanced optics/hearing and age. "I aint no kid no more"

I can say this. If there is/will be a helmet spec. requirement, no motorcycle/snowmobile helmets will pass this inspection. However, any helmet is better than none, so, let's see what comes to pass?

Also...As long as were are speaking about safety topics, inspect your factory 3 point seatbelt harness and ask yourself if it really ties your butt to the seat? If not, call me? I can help you upgrade to a four or five point harness. No need to be sliding around in the factory seat, eh?

Then there are fire systems...Oh geeze, enough for one post, eh?

Carry on Gents, see y'all on the track, eh?

Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

SergntMac
04-23-2012, 04:04 AM
Got to get a front sway bar and new shocks for it. Can't wait.

Please hold all improvements to your MM until AFTER you have experienced at least ONE road course.

Its amazing how one can change his mind about aftermarket accessories once he tests them out.

N40GL
04-23-2012, 09:26 AM
Absolutely true! Before you try to correct what you think your car is doing, try to first understand what it IS doing - and why.


Please hold all improvements to your MM until AFTER you have experienced at least ONE road course.

Its amazing how one can change his mind about aftermarket accessories once he tests them out.

pantheroc
04-23-2012, 09:36 AM
Recommend getting your brakes & tires, inspected, changed. Bring tire pressure guage and pump if you have it.

KBMarauder
04-23-2012, 09:40 AM
I'm there!

MM03MOK
04-23-2012, 10:50 AM
I'm there!
I knew you'd chime in!! :D

IwantmyMMnow!
04-23-2012, 12:30 PM
I realize that the official itinerary hasn't been made public (or has it?), but just curious about which day in the 4-day extravaganza that will be MVX is the road course going to be on? I ask because it's likely I'll be arriving Thurs evening...

Pops
04-23-2012, 12:33 PM
I realize that the official itinerary hasn't been made public (or has it?), but just curious about which day in the 4-day extravaganza that will be MVX is the road course going to be on? I ask because it's likely I'll be arriving Thurs evening...

Thursday at 4:30 till dark.

IwantmyMMnow!
04-23-2012, 09:31 PM
Thursday at 4:30 till dark.

RATS!!!!!!

Time to go to plan B; arrive in South Haven before the trek to the road course...

Haggis
04-24-2012, 04:42 AM
RATS!!!!!!

Time to go to plan B; arrive in South Haven before the trek to the road course...

Ship your car to Pops a week before and fly up on Thursday.

SergntMac
04-24-2012, 05:30 PM
More 411 on this event is developing as I post this, so, lets discuss what I do know at this time.

I know that the helmet spec. is a Snell 95 or later. This is a very generous spec. from track management, so, look around your circle of friends for a loaner.

Current spec. is Snell 2010, and they are pricey, in the area of 300 bucks. If you are going to borrow a helmet, there is a sticker/decal inside the helmet underneath all the foam padding that dates the helmet spec. The changes in specs. is due to improvements in fire retardant materials used in the construction of the helmet. Motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile helmets will not pass tech. inspection, so don't even think about it. Tech. inspectors are wise to the game. No word yet on loaner helmets at trackside, but I've seen it before. Fingers crossed?

There will be a checklist for tech. inspection. The usual stuff you may expect and y'all (based on what I've seen at Looseville) should pass no sweat. But, you still have to file the paperwork and your signature on the forms is your promise of compliance. BTW, expect waivers and disclaimers and medical status as well, after all this is a voluntary sport. You participate at your own risk, and you will have to sign off on that. You will be required to show proof of insurance too. More on this later?

You will be required to wear long sleeve shirts, long pants and socks covering the ankles. All 100% cotton because it is the slowest burning material. No polyester blends or manfactured (man-made) materials,. Leather shoes if possible (suede will pass).

I suggest you check out some of the race gear available on the web. A jump suit with level 1 fire retardant may make your life a bit easier trackside. Costs begin around 130 bucks, and you will have other uses for the suit. Try to avoid the dark colors, high visibilty is important. Likewise with any driving gloves, hand signals will come into play and are important because you want to deliver the correct signal when its time.

Clean out your car. Empty the glove box and center console. Be preard to remove any internal devices such as radar detector or GPS unit. If its not screwed down, remove it. Nothing floating around inside the cabin, all that stuff is a secondary missle that may harm you if they come loose and fly about.

Fuel. Half a tank or better. You will be slinging about from left to right, and (just like drag racing) you don't want air in the fuel lines. Moreover, if there is a crash, the fuel system may continue to pump fuel, and this is why there is a strong emphasis on fire resistant clothing, ect. Likewise, a fire extingusher is suggested, but it must be mounted and not floating free. 2.5 lbs is the minimum, if so required.

Chew on this a while, more as it develops.

Y'all be safe, carry on gents.

Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

SergntMac
04-24-2012, 05:46 PM
One other thing...

This stuff is called "road racing" for a reason, so, let's get this right, right now.

You are racing the road, not each other. There is no "top dog" at the end of the session. You may be permitted to pass another car, you may not. It doesn't matter anyhow.

You are racing the road. The track. It's you against the pavement. If (and when) someone passes you, it matters not. They are not beating you, or "winning" anything. Likewise, if (and when) you pass another driver in his Marauder, you didn't beat him. You win nothing.

The point is that you can drive your car to the limits you are comfortable with. Maybe the car will disappoint you, maybe you will disappoint the car's potential. Either way, you are not in competition with other Marauders present on the track. It's you and your Marauder against the road before you.

That's why it's called "road racing". Get it?

Y'all be safe, happy motoring gents.

Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

guspech750
04-24-2012, 05:56 PM
Thanks for the info Mac. It's got me thinking.


Sent from my iPhone
Eaton Swap + 4.10's = Wreeeeeeeeeedom!!

DOOM
04-24-2012, 06:28 PM
One other thing...

This stuff is called "road racing" for a reason, so, let's get this right, right now.

You are racing the road, not each other. There is no "top dog" at the end of the session. You may be permitted to pass another car, you may not. It doesn't matter anyhow.

You are racing the road. The track. It's you against the pavement. If (and when) someone passes you, it matters not. They are not beating you, or "winning" anything. Likewise, if (and when) you pass another driver in his Marauder, you didn't beat him. You win nothing.

The point is that you can drive your car to the limits you are comfortable with. Maybe the car will disappoint you, maybe you will disappoint the car's potential. Either way, you are not in competition with other Marauders present on the track. It's you and your Marauder against the road before you.

That's why it's called "road racing". Get it?

Y'all be safe, happy motoring gents.

Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396


Well said Mac! :beer:

PonyUP
04-24-2012, 06:53 PM
Great info Mac and good to know do that we come prepared


Pony seal of Approval

N40GL
04-25-2012, 09:56 AM
A couple of other things I've picked up over the years:

1. Know your blood type. Just in case.

2. Don't just empty the inside of the car. Empty the trunk. Spare tire? Toss it. Fasten loose seatbelts - loose buckles are not safe.

3. Don't try to rip off the fastest lap possible the first time (or second or third) out, whether or not the tires are warm. Work your way up to it.

4. Make sure your transmission is up to the challenge. It takes the most abuse on a road course. For example - while you are learning your instructor may tell you to put it in second gear and leave it there. Is your transmission up to it?

5. Get temperature gauges for the engine oil and the transmission oil. It gives you early warning about trouble brewing. See #4.

6. Get a catch tank - most courses require 'em. You don't want to be putting down oil or antifreeze on a track where adhesion is critical. It doesn't have to be expensive - use an old water bottle.

7. Learn to watch corner workers - practice by watching sidewalks in your daily drives. The corner workers are your friends - they will warn you about things you can't see, or things going wrong with your car YOU can't see. Think oil-dri or grease-sweep isn't slippery? Think again - the workers'll tell you where it is.

8. Yellow flag means no passing. Period. See #7.

9. Watch your mirrors - check 'em not less than every two seconds. If a faster car is overtaking, YOU are in control of where they pass you. POINT where you want them to pass you, and then yield the racing line so they can safely complete the pass.

10. One point = one pass. Another car? Point again. See #9.

11. Walk the track before you drive it (if at all possible). Especially with someone who knows the track. Maybe the night before. Walk the racing line. Observe the surface. Learn where the shutdown markers are. THINK about what you are going to do in each corner before you get there. Drive the track in your head.

12. There are only two kinds of drivers. Those that have hit the wall, and those that are going to hit the wall. Don't be in a hurry to get in to group 2. Don't overdrive your skill level.

13. Observe, observe, observe. See a driver that has the course nailed? Talk to them. Watch them for a session. It's a family - everybody shares. Depending on the instructors, see if they'll let you play 'follow the leader.'

14. Shuffle steer? Baloney. Never take your hands off the wheel. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/05/just-say-no-to-shuffle-steering/ Try it in a parking lot.

15. On a road course, you ALWAYS start the turn later then you think you should.

16. Get comfortable with the car sliding - all four wheels. It shouldn't be a surprise.

17. Pay attention to tire pressure. Start at recommended factory and reduce by 5PSI until you find the level of adhesion you like. The front pressure mey not be the same as the back pressure.

18. Check your tire pressure at the end of every session. It always goes down - surprise! :-)

19. What are your priorities in the corner? Exit - Entry - Apex. In that order. (You can always practice the corner backwards in your mind.)

20. Try to carry as much speed as possible through the corner for the best lap times. Speed comes off faster than it goes on.

21. What do you drive with? Head - Feet - Hands. In that order.

22. The best car is the one that remains most 'flat' through the corner, with the least sideloading (i.e. force perpendicular to the direction of travel). Don't worry about 'feeling fast.'

23. Remember the terminology to tell you where things are on a track that only goes in one direction: "Driver's Left," "Driver's Right."

24. It's your track - use all of it. Translation: If you are driving the racing line, other drivers must yield to you (more true if you are in an instructor-led session, where there is no passing). If you start the turn at driver's left entrance, hit the apex at driver's right and push back to driver's left exit, that's perfectly fine.

25. In learning a new track, try this: start by turning in early at a comfortable (i.e. not full racing) speed, staying on a tight line, staying on the inside as long as possible. Then start to build speed while keeping the car on that same line.

26. Got good brakes? Good fluid level? Make certain. Same with tires - have enough tread.

27. Keep the engine running for a few minutes after last lap to allow everything to cool predictably.

And a comment on Helmets: SCCA regulations require a Snell 2010 helmet. I think Snell 2005's are still acceptable (the last two certification years are usually the limitations). Snell 2000 and earlier certifications are no longer accepted and no longer safe.

And on seat belts: If this is your first track day, I'm not entirely convinced that you need to invest in a full (or partial) harness to figure out whether you like this sort of stuff. The factory seat belts are fine. But, as I learned, the chairs in the MM are pretty wide, and you'll need a dead pedal or something to push your butt into the seat and keep from sliding around.

And on pedal use: The preceding comment also make me think about pedal use. For a few of my first MM laps, I tried left foot braking and right foot acceleration. I couldn't do it - I needed my left foot to cram my butt into the seat to keep from sliding all over the place. Then I tried heel and toeing the pedals - that didn't work for me either, due to pedal placement and the size of my foot. But, if you think you want to try this sort of stuff, practice in a parking lot to see if you can get comfortable with it.

Anyway - hope it helps.

SergntMac
04-25-2012, 03:05 PM
All good (and valuable) advice Mark, thank you. Seems we just covered the first hour of driver training in one post.


And a comment on Helmets: SCCA regulations require a Snell 2010 helmet. I think Snell 2005's are still acceptable (the last two certification years are usually the limitations). Snell 2000 and earlier certifications are no longer accepted and no longer safe.
I had my reservations about posting the SN '95 certifications that I have, they seemed a bit "old" to me as well. However it is what was posted on related web sites and shame on those sites who haven't updated their 411 in some time. Thanks for catching this.

My helmet is an SN2005, Mary's is an SN2010 and we used them both at Spring Mountain. I apologize for any misunderstanding in my previous post, I did find those resources too generous in publishing a standard that is now understood to be expired.

I cannot agree with your "no longer safe" remark. Perhaps this is just your way of phrasing thoughts?

A Snell approved helmet will always be safe, and safer, than most options. Just not up to official race track standards nor pass official race track inspection. However, you have to think about it all this way. An uncertified helmet may result in an uncertified brain. Any questons?

Any Snell approved helmet is safe, and safer than options i.e. Motorcycle/ATV/Snowmobile helmets, but just not up to recent code changes and improvements in fire retardant technology. However, "not approved" means exactly what it says, "not approved". Once we clarify this early 411, we will know what direction to follow.

I've had enough to say about this for now, I will return with comments once we are closer to the event.

Be safe, y'all, carry on gents.

Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

FastMerc
04-25-2012, 06:08 PM
Sound like a trans cooler may be good for this?

N40GL
04-26-2012, 09:50 AM
Probably a little bit of both, Mac. I still have echoes in my mind of the Chief of Tech, San Francisco Region SCCA, yelling "Don't let him on the track with that helmet - it isn't safe!" when a participant tried to go out with a Snell 1980 helmet in 1994. So, I've just always thought of the more-than-two-certifications-old helmet as 'not safe.' It's reflex.


... I cannot agree with your "no longer safe" remark. Perhaps this is just your way of phrasing thoughts?

A Snell approved helmet will always be safe, and safer, than most options. Just not up to official race track standards nor pass official race track inspection. ...

Bluerauder
04-26-2012, 02:06 PM
A couple of other things I've picked up over the years:

1. Know your blood type. Just in case.

You had me at "Know your blood type .... Just in case." :o

There is NO way that I will remember 27 tips for Road Racing. Maybe 15 or 10 max .... but not necessarily in order. :rofl:

Guess that I will just have to wait to see all the specs that the MV10 crew has set up for the Gingerman event. I really wanted to get out on the road course and try out a little "spirited driving" on some twisties. From the above discussions, I may just have to settle for sitting on the hill and spectating while the serious racers push the limits especially if helmets and firesuits are required for all events.

BTW --- I am "O Positive" for those who might need a transfusion injection unless you're askeered of getting some Old man's blood. :P

I was kinda hoping that there might be an opportunity to run the course a couple times "just for the heck of it" or within some graduated classes from "Expert" to "Novice". Don't know whether that is planned or even possible; but I'd like to put my bid in now for the "Sissies" class. With a 700 mile drive home, there's not much chance that I will risk a spin out and encounter with the barrier walls.

However this turns out .... I'll be there either watching the Pros or making a couple "non-competitive" laps. :D

DOOM
04-26-2012, 02:16 PM
Think I might be sitting right beside Bluerauder! :D

MM03MOK
04-26-2012, 02:23 PM
We still need to iron out the details with driver training and classification of drivers. There will certainly be a novice group, with more hand-holding. We are also talking about a parade lap for everyone to participate in. Much more to come but try not to get bogged down with all the details now. Mark and Mac are showing their excitement and knowledge, for sure!!

It's not about speed, it's about accuracy and control of your car. It's a BLAST and I think about what I've learned on the track and in the classes I've taken every time I drive!!

Flynlow
04-26-2012, 02:32 PM
You had me at "Know your blood type .... Just in case." :o

There is NO way that I will remember 27 tips for Road Racing. Maybe 15 or 10 max .... but not necessarily in order. :rofl:

Guess that I will just have to wait to see all the specs that the MV10 crew has set up for the Gingerman event. I really wanted to get out on the road course and try out a little "spirited driving" on some twisties. From the above discussions, I may just have to settle for sitting on the hill and spectating while the serious racers push the limits especially if helmets and firesuits are required for all events.

BTW --- I am "O Positive" for those who might need a transfusion injection unless you're askeered of getting some old man's blood. :P

I was kinda hoping that there might be an opportunity to run the course a couple times "just for the heck of it" or within some graduated classes from "Expert" to "Novice". Don't know whether that is planned or even possible; but I'd like to put my bid in now for the "Sissies" class. With a 700 mile drive home, there's not much chance that I will risk a spin out and encounter with the barrier walls.

However this turns out .... I'll be there either watching the Pros or making a couple "non-competitive" laps. :D

I have to agree with Bluerauder and Doom. I want to get my car out there and "feel" it is the twisties. I have only had my car a month now and it IS my DD. I cannot afford it to be hit or possibly hit someone else. But I do wanna feel it, as I do tend to push my car a little in the turns when I am the only one around to get a feel for her limits.

Now I also realize that all the above points are just what can be expected... and no one should get in an uproar until we officially hear from the MVX committee of what is required.

I too hope that they have or set aside a small amount of our time for the "junior" racers to get out there and stretch the legs of our cars a bit and better learn how to handle it possibly even.

DOOM
04-26-2012, 02:43 PM
Oh and my blood type is "B" for BOOST!!! :burn:

boatmangc
04-26-2012, 04:49 PM
I just had my first experience on a road course, my prior instruction was reading "Sports Car and Competition Driving" by Paul Frere, dated 1963
I learned a lot of good stuff and went out to prove nothing but to get a feel of what my car was capable of.
No walls, just saltwater and Mangrove trees on either side.
I walked the course with a friend 1st
Then went on a ride along in an 89 LX with a well warmed over 5.0 and REALLY good suspension mods with nice race tires.
I then took a couple of passes and laughed at myself for the full ride.
My car is way more capable than me and I didn't push it.
I didn't need my dead pedal to hold me in my seat.
Returned home with a big smile, a trophy for "most cones knocked down in a single pass":banana2: and the desire to do it again. In a car roughly 3 feet shorter and 1500-2000 lbs lighter.
I'm thinking turbo'd Miata.

FastMerc
04-26-2012, 05:04 PM
I agree that the planning people need to get more info.But it sounds like my car would need some upgrades to do this,and I am not budjeted for it this year plus I do more quarter mile than I will ever do on a road course.But I would love the experience and knowledge from it,so I may be on the hill with the rest of you...

droppointalpha
04-26-2012, 05:12 PM
Hmmm... O- here... I guess ya'll will be good if its one of ya'll-I'm always up for helping out.

But me? I'm screwed.

I won't be pushing it too hard either. But I'm not a fan of the Snell helmets at all. I tried on a few after MV9 and they all felt like I was wearing a brick on my head... Not to mention I'm in the same category as some others here on having to go with a 3/4 or less due to "eye wear restrictions". Oh well. Here's to hoping for loaners or rentals.

IwantmyMMnow!
04-26-2012, 06:27 PM
Oh and my blood type is "B" for BOOST!!! :burn:

I thought it was "B" for "BLING"
Or "P" for "PINK" or "POLISHING THE CHROME"
Or.....yeah, I could go on forever...;)

Getting mixed feelings now about this road course as well, but I'm probably over-reacting as this is all new to me. Passing? I had in mind that there would be 2 or 3 cars max on the course at the same time, spaced at 3/4 - 1 mile intervals or something.

I completely understand the desire to NOT have a bunch of jokers in their MMs making a shambles of the course and creating utter chaos.

I, too, would be in line for the 'pre-novice' group; I already know the car can outperform my skill. Yes, I would like to 'kick it up a notch' while on the course, but in no way would I put myself in the situation of having to worry about hitting barriers, other cars, flag persons, etc. My lap(s) around the course may be boring to some (or most), but it'll be a thrill for me. The power and speed of the MM is just ONE of the reasons why I bought it, not THE reason.

I will respect all safety rules and guidlines, the knowledge of the professionals, and keep in mind the goal is to have fun doing something I've never had the chance to do before and may not get to do again. It would be better to leave the course thinking, "I could've pushed it a little harder" instead of, "Why am I going to the hospital?", in my opinion.

I can only image what a daunting task it is to put something like this together for us and I appreciate it greatly. The last thing anyone wants is to have someone turn their MM into a pile of twisted metal, let alone need to be taken to the hospital.

Thanks for your hard work.

IwantmyMMnow!
04-26-2012, 06:31 PM
Think I might be sitting right beside Bluerauder! :D

Figured you'd be on the sidelines anyways since you blew up your MM...:lol: :lol: :lol:

HammerDown
04-26-2012, 06:50 PM
Think I might be sitting right beside Bluerauder! :D

and HammerDown!!!!!

(although I really want to try this.................)

N40GL
04-28-2012, 07:28 AM
If this is anything like the Kenny Brown 25th Anniversary event, it will all be about instruction. You need the Snell Helmet to get on course (and I'd be happy to loan mine out if I'm not using it), but a driver's suit is only a 'nice to have.' It is all about learning car control, and not a whole lot about racing or passing at this level.

For me, I kind of look at this like I looked at Tennis when I was in college. I wanted a lot of instruction to improve my game, so I took 'Beginning Tennis' for four semesters. Not because I wasn't improving, but because I wanted instruction. Then, because 'Intermediate Tennis' was about 50% play and 50% instruction, I took it for three semesters. Same reason - find a problem and fix it. I only took 'Advanced Tennis' my last semester, which was all play.

If we've got instructors available for this event at MVX, do you know what class I'll be in? Novice. I want all the instruction I can take, because it isn't always available, and I can always learn something. Each track teaches different lessons. My instructor will quickly find out my skill level, but I want to be in a group where I can get all the available lessons.

"Novice" groups means no passing, wide gaps between the cars, and lots of teaching. It isn't run like a race session, and if you feel you are nearing your limit and headed for the weeds, it's okay to slow down. First and foremost, you are there to learn.

Remember also, your teachers are racers that drive two, three or four events a month, all year long. Compared to them, I am definitely a Novice and will stay one until I get a purpose-built race car and take up that schedule.

Just be clear about your expectations and have a good time - you are learning what the car can do, and these skills definitely translate to daily driving.

Pops
04-28-2012, 07:57 AM
If this is anything like the Kenny Brown 25th Anniversary event, it will all be about instruction. You need the Snell Helmet to get on course (and I'd be happy to loan mine out if I'm not using it), but a driver's suit is only a 'nice to have.' It is all about learning car control, and not a whole lot about racing or passing at this level.

For me, I kind of look at this like I looked at Tennis when I was in college. I wanted a lot of instruction to improve my game, so I took 'Beginning Tennis' for four semesters. Not because I wasn't improving, but because I wanted instruction. Then, because 'Intermediate Tennis' was about 50% play and 50% instruction, I took it for three semesters. Same reason - find a problem and fix it. I only took 'Advanced Tennis' my last semester, which was all play.

If we've got instructors available for this event at MVX, do you know what class I'll be in? Novice. I want all the instruction I can take, because it isn't always available, and I can always learn something. Each track teaches different lessons. My instructor will quickly find out my skill level, but I want to be in a group where I can get all the available lessons.

"Novice" groups means no passing, wide gaps between the cars, and lots of teaching. It isn't run like a race session, and if you feel you are nearing your limit and headed for the weeds, it's okay to slow down. First and foremost, you are there to learn.

Remember also, your teachers are racers that drive two, three or four events a month, all year long. Compared to them, I am definitely a Novice and will stay one until I get a purpose-built race car and take up that schedule.

Just be clear about your expectations and have a good time - you are learning what the car can do, and these skills definitely translate to daily driving.

Good job Mark! This is what you guys need to base your decisions on. This is a long course and has very few barriers. A lot of driving skills can be improved on. No one should be afraid to give this a try. As far as helmuts go I am sure that a few will be around for loan. Plenty of time to figure this out and you should look at it as a chance to have fun plus learn some new skills!:)

DeepSea117
04-29-2012, 08:04 AM
But, as I learned, the chairs in the MM are pretty wide, and you'll need a dead pedal or something to push your butt into the seat and keep from sliding around.

And on pedal use: The preceding comment also make me think about pedal use. For a few of my first MM laps, I tried left foot braking and right foot acceleration. I couldn't do it - I needed my left foot to cram my butt into the seat to keep from sliding all over the place.

That's the one mod I'd recommend. I put in a Kenny Brown dead pedal about a month after driving around. I'm not sure if Kenny Brown still makes those dead pedals, but I have seen homegrown stuff on here with a block of wood and either skaters' tape and velcro.

For the sliding around, I'd recline the seat just enough so I can lock the belt after buckling, and then incline back up into it. I was also thinking of using two of those dashboard non-slide mats for cellphones, and setting an ass-cheek on each one.

Haggis
04-30-2012, 05:56 AM
Where does one purchase a Schnell helmet and/or driving suit?

SergntMac
04-30-2012, 11:31 AM
First...A tip of my hat to Mark (NO4GL) for his most recent post. He says a lot and says it in a way I cannot polish those words. Listen to him, please?

Also, I noted a few posts of worry about collisions, damages to you, or your prized Marauder, and "novice" status. Gents, this is widely not the case. I've been doing this for a long time, and without any calamity.

Total up all the tracks and all the events staged in America and you will find very few collisions, or injuries to driver or car. Football and Hockey have severly worse safety records.

Not to say this is a "walk in the park" sport, if it's not a challenge, its not a sport, get me? However, it is well managed and closely goverened. Oherwise, there would be no race tracks, nor speaking of this sport. Calm down? It's going to be a lot of fun for y'all and you will have the best in instruction, safety, and management available to us.


Where does one purchase a Schnell helmet and/or driving suit?

Gordon, it's Snell, and the current spec is 2010. There will be a sticker of certification inside the helmet. Otherwise, there are hundereds of answers for you, all I can do is explain what I have done, and I feel I have done it with the upmost safety in mind. From here, it's your choice. Just trying to help. Feel free to call for more detailed 411.

My helmet is a Simpson FR Cruiser. Glossy black, 3/4 face and visor, its a 2005 spec. I purchased it from the Simpson website years ago for 299.00 plus shipping. When Mary asked me to advise her on a helmet, I ordered an identical helmet. It's a 2010 Snell spec. with the spec. printed on the outside. Same quality, updated spec., and same price. BTW, the 3/4 face is generous to eyewear, which Mary and I need. Her request was easy to answer.

My fire suits have been a Sparco level 1 in black, and a G-Force level 2 in yellow. After a few events, I wanted high visibility over style, just in case I ended up on foot on the pavement. I cannot remember exactly what I paid for them, but they were less expensive than my helmet. Expect 100 to 130 bucks for entry level suits, check JEGS or SUMMIT as resources. Order one size larger than the clothing you wear everyday, i.e. you wear a men's large shirt, order an extra-large suit.

My rationale for suggesting these low level suits is simple. It easier to suit up and get on the track, than it is to collect all the correct street wear, and wear that all day waiting for track time. No need to overheat yourself, eh? Moreover, street wear will have to be approved by track inspectors, and a race suit will make that quicker and easier. You can wear shorts and a tee shirt under a race suit and be comfortable all day long. And, you will have more uses for the suit, even when you are not on a track. Moreover, if you spend a lot of time on a drag strip, the suit will qualify (perhaps over-qualify) at that time.

I also did something else with my yellow suit, I started collecting signatures and autographs from the drivers and champions I have driven with. This makes my suit a bit of a "trophy" by itself as it chronicles where I've been and with whom. All of you are invited to sign my yellow suit at MVX, that will become quite a memory of these days for me.

My Shelby named "LuLu" ( present at Looseville 2008) is a purpose built race car with license plates. 800 HP, 6sp Tremec manual, 6 point cage and a full 5 point race harness from SIMPSON.

OTOH, my Shelby named "Lucy" (present at Looseville 2012) is a stock Shelby GT with 350 HP, auto tranny and a full compliment of Kenny Brown suspension. IMPACT 5 point race harnesses. Other than this, it's a stock car and I race her too.

Race harnesses may be important for some of you. A harness ties you to the seat (and the whole car) in a way the factory 3 point belt cannot accomplish. THIS IS NOT A NECESSARY UPGRADE. Leave it be until you are familiar with the sport, decide to do it more, and want to get a little better at it down the road (excuse the pun).

Okay...enough for now. I found myself on a roll and I apologize for the long post. Anyone with question are welcme to call me.

Y'all carry on, be safe.
Mac.
SergntMac@aol.com
312.401.1396

N40GL
04-30-2012, 01:39 PM
Snell-certified helmets are certified by the Snell Foundation. They have a helpful website (http://www.smf.org/cert)that will identify all helmets receiving this certification. You want to select a "Special Application Helmet (SA2010)". Mine is a Bell (M4 Full Face), and it cost about $300 (at OGRacing near Dulles Airport, FWIW). Please go try one on before you buy it - sizes vary. SA2005 helmets are still on sale and probably heavily discounted, but you won't be able to wear it on track after the SA2015 certifications are issued.

I picked white over black, because I want the corner workers (and other race officials) to be able to identify my head inside the car (see attached picture, with instructor; the white bottle in the grille is the catch tank for the intercooler reservoir). I'm also debating getting some graphics on it, and I think white is a better canvas.

Why full face instead of open face? Personal preference, plus I've seen some ugly incidents (on the Pro circuit) where parts of the car went through where a lower part of the helmet might be. Those images stayed with me, even though this sort of instruction-only driving is very UNlikely to cause that.

Whether or not you buy a driver's suit, you might wish to consider a head sock if you sweat a whole bunch. Easier to wash then the helmet, and doesn't leave dents in the dryer. :)

One more general thought: since you are going to want to drive the track without taking your hands off the wheel, practice it now to get comfortable with it. Put your hands at 9 and 3, and leave 'em there.


Where does one purchase a Schnell helmet and/or driving suit?

Da Dark Jedi
04-30-2012, 04:10 PM
Alright, thats what I needed to hear "safety & SLOW". I need all the training and instruction possible. Is there a course min for speed (that'll be me)? Is there a place near Chicago where I can try on some helmets for size and fit?

pem
05-02-2012, 04:28 PM
this really sounds cool! after reading all these posts, i close my eyes, and imagine doing a 4 wheel drift thru the corners like the taurus commercial on tv with carl edwards...then i open my eyes and think about the 27 driving tips, helmets, fire suits, and all that other stuff and realize that i am a senior chicken. is there a senior chicken class for me? I know another item i will have to have, clean underwear and a box of depends!!!! here's hoping for good weather.

Mike Ruo
05-04-2012, 06:18 AM
As practice, I go out at night when there is no traffic, and run cloverleafs for a while. It's really fun, and great practice to learn your car. I've been doing it since I got my license, and I'm a much better driver for it. Obviously you must beware of traffic and police, and of course beware of your or your cars limitations. You don't need to dive into a ramp at 110 mph and risk injury to other drivers to improve your own capabilities.

SergntMac
05-09-2012, 03:01 PM
A few words about the background we face at MVX and Gingerman.

This sport is ruled by race associations who establish the rules of conduct while on the track. Every track has an association, and a set of rules we must comply with. This is where we draw the instructors who will teach us their rules for the Gingerman track. As 411 becomes available, we will discover more about the rules we must follow.

Presently, I am a member of the SAAC (Shelby American Automobile Counsel), the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) in the solo division, and a member of the Terlingua Racing Team. Each association has it own rules, but the rules mirror each other closely. Here's an example...

The SCCA requires a fire extingusher to be mounted in the car, firmly bolted down yet accessible to the driver. The SAAC does not, and Terlingua has no comment, you are on your own. Thus, depending on where I race and the rules I must follow, the presence of a fire extingusher is an "adjustable" factor. We will know more about this as we progress.

IF a fire extingusher is required, it will have to be at least a 2.5 pound ABC quality device, with an up-to-date certification. This will allow for 30 to 40 seconds of fire protection which is plenty of time to escape the vehicle. The Marauder has a return style fuel system, so, you are sitting on 4-5 ounces of live fuel, and some protection may/should be considered. BTW, my last purchase of a new extingusher for my Shelby was under 50 bucks, so, don't sweat cost on this. With enough participation, I could investigate a group buy if any of y'all are interested.

Well, that's about it for now, I just wanted to give this thread a bump but got sidetracked. Just more stuff for y'all to consider.

Again (and most important), this sport is very safe and I don't mean to alarm anyone. However, the more you know now is less you have to learn later. Road coursing is very exciting and with minimal wear and tear on your vehicle. Anyone can do it, and you will have the time of your life with your Marauder.

Y'all carry on and be safe.
Mac.
Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

SergntMac
05-09-2012, 07:21 PM
One more general thought: since you are going to want to drive the track without taking your hands off the wheel, practice it now to get comfortable with it. Put your hands at 9 and 3, and leave 'em there.

Well...This is where Mark (N04GL) and I may disagree.

Why we disagree isn't important, its more like the way we grew up inside this sport.

Looking at your steering wheel as a clock, Mark suggests a 9-3 o.clock handhold on the steering wheel, and that's not a bad place to begin.

However, I have another suggestion which was taught to me by the Kenny Brown folks at Putnam Park this last Sept.

I'm an O L D guy, with a host of injuries awarded to me over 30 some years of law enforcement. I cannot raise my right elbow above my chin, so, steering became a problem. What Kenny Brown taught me, was a 8-4 handhold (think like a clock) where both hands are almost in my lap.

This allows me to twist my right or left hand above my chin and accomplish a full turn despite which hand is in control.

It takes some practice to do this, but we have the time to practice, yes?

Just another option, gents, now go get some experience.

Y'all be safe, drive on.
Mac.
Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

SergntMac
05-10-2012, 05:02 PM
bumping it up a bit?

IwantmyMMnow!
05-10-2012, 06:40 PM
Thanks to everyone for passing along info concerning Gingerman. The more information that's out now, the less that has to be passed on the day of. I like getting a little info now and then; easier to 'digest' than having it all thrown at you in one blast.

:thanks:

Bluerauder
05-11-2012, 04:28 AM
Looks like I am going to have to wait until "Pops" and the MV10 team post up the details for our use of the Gingerman track.


Rules and Regulations for Gingerman "Open Track" sessions are here >>>>> http://www.gingermanraceway.com/rules-and-regulations

In addition to SNELL or DOT 2005 or newer helmets, the rules and regulations say that ..... "•Previous track driving experience is required." Looks like that applies to all classes --- Novice, Advanced, and Formula/Sport racers.

If the prior experience requirement ^^^^^ is going to be enforced for our use, then there could be alot of MV10 attendees that can't/won't qualify. I certainly couldn't unless I can count the tracks at Indy and Charlotte or the parade lap around Gingerman as experience. ;) 25+ years of driving around Northern Virginia and DC Metro area oughta give me some partial "track" credit. ;)

I hope the spectator area is rather large since there may only be a handful of people who have the experience and the equipment to actually be on the track.

BTW -- I usually use the 9:35 AM - 1:27 PM grip. ;)

N40GL
05-11-2012, 08:24 AM
Looking at your steering wheel as a clock, Mark suggests a 9-3 o.clock handhold on the steering wheel, ...

What Kenny Brown taught me, was a 8-4 handhold (think like a clock) where both hands are almost in my lap. ...

I can see why, with Mac's limited arm travel, he was taught this way. The most important thing to remember, regardless of where you hold your hands, is NOT to get your arms crossed over each other. THAT is a recipe for loss of control, and disaster swiftly follows.


... Rules and Regulations for Gingerman "Open Track" sessions are here >>>>> http://www.gingermanraceway.com/rules-and-regulations ...

Charlie: those rules are for running Gingerman when it is open track. If we run with instructors, their rules will trump those of the track.

SergntMac
05-13-2012, 05:11 PM
The most important thing to remember, regardless of where you hold your hands, is NOT to get your arms crossed over each other. THAT is a recipe for loss of control, and disaster swiftly follows.

I whole-heartedly agree. Both "systems" work, but practice is the key.

Y'all get out there now and PRACTICE!

Thank you, Mark.

PS. My apology for confusing your screen name.

Y'all carry on, and be safe.
Mac.
Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

SergntMac
05-13-2012, 05:55 PM
Looks like I am going to have to wait until "Pops" and the MV10 team post up the details for our use of the Gingerman track.


Rules and Regulations for Gingerman "Open Track" sessions are here >>>>> http://www.gingermanraceway.com/rules-and-regulations

In addition to SNELL or DOT 2005 or newer helmets, the rules and regulations say that ..... "•Previous track driving experience is required." Looks like that applies to all classes --- Novice, Advanced, and Formula/Sport racers.

If the prior experience requirement ^^^^^ is going to be enforced for our use, then there could be alot of MV10 attendees that can't/won't qualify. I certainly couldn't unless I can count the tracks at Indy and Charlotte or the parade lap around Gingerman as experience. ;) 25+ years of driving around Northern Virginia and DC Metro area oughta give me some partial "track" credit. ;)

I hope the spectator area is rather large since there may only be a handful of people who have the experience and the equipment to actually be on the track.

BTW -- I usually use the 9:35 AM - 1:27 PM grip. ;)

Well...Now I have to go forward (and where I don't want to go) just to make sure folks attending MVX get the correct 411.

Your "9:35-1:27 grip" comment is not really funny, Blue. I hope others reading here put a little more thought into this. It's just for fun, why take the fun out of it now?

Yes...We have to wait for more 411 from Gingerman, but we (Mark, Mary, and I) are just discussing our past experience, and with a wide variety of race tracks and race associations between us. I apologize if I have been confusing to any of you in this discussion. Maybe I should abandon the effort?

Blue...You mention DOT certified equpment. Trust me when I say that the DOT is a requlation authority in name only. Heck, your tires, even your radio/stereo/CD changer, are all DOT certified. But, not all are good companions to a Marauder, get me? Besides, each state has their own DOT, thus the certifications may be disimilar between states, agreed?

This is why the Snell certification is respected. It's international. Snell approval for helmets and fire protection become important because those specs. superceed state lines with a national standard of safety. It's your brain, your body, and your Marauder. Its all about you. Do you really want less than the best?

I hope the spectator benches at Gingerman will be cold for want of company. I want everyone who attends MVX to drive on the Gingerman track, and not for just a parade lap. I want everyone to give it a serious try, road coursing is a very safe sport, but a challenging sport as well. Every owner and spouse should give it at least one try beyond a parade lap.

I know you meant well, Blue, but please, not in this thread?

We will see what Gingerman wants, and we will have the time of our lives.

Carry on, Gents, y'all be safe.
Mac.
Sergntmac@aol.com
312.401.1396

Bluerauder
05-13-2012, 06:54 PM
I hope the spectator benches at Gingerman will be cold for want of company. I want everyone who attends MVX to drive on the Gingerman track, and not for just a parade lap. I want everyone to give it a serious try .....

I hope so too. Personally, I want to do this and have fun. But the thread has seemed more pointed to folks with lots of road racing experience to include all the safety equipment and such. My mistake if I took this as "tips" and "requirements" for our Gingerman experience at MV10.

This thread was started with specific reference to MV10 and Gingerman. I expressed my concerns that this might only be intended for "experienced" road course drivers. Nothing stated here has eased any of those concerns and that is why I said I would wait for the Official Information from the MV10 committee.

There is no doubt that you, Mark and Mary have the required experience. If this thread really has nothing to do with MV10 .... sorry .... my mistake.

The reference to DOT certification are not MY words. It is a direct pull from the Gingerman Rules and Regulations. I didn't make it up.

I have put alot of thought into this event and want to try it out seriously. Sorry if you didn't like my grip comment ... it was intended to lighten up the theme of the thread which turned rather serious after the "Know your Blood Type" comment. I won't play here in this Forum anymore and I'll leave road racing discussions to the experts. If I get a chance to try it at MV10, so much the better.

Carry On ..............

SergntMac
05-13-2012, 07:26 PM
I hope so too. Personally, I want to do this and have fun. But the thread has seemed more pointed to folks with lots of road racing experience to include all the safety equipment and such. My mistake if I took this as "tips" and "requirements" for our Gingerman experience at MV10.

This thread was started with specific reference to MV10 and Gingerman. I expressed my concerns that this might only be intended for "experienced" road course drivers. Nothing stated here has eased any of those concerns and that is why I said I would wait for the Official Information from the MV10 committee.

There is no doubt that you, Mark and Mary have the required experience. If this thread really has nothing to do with MV10 .... sorry .... my mistake.

The reference to DOT certification are not MY words. It is a direct pull from the Gingerman Rules and Regulations. I didn't make it up.

I have put alot of thought into this event and want to try it out seriously. Sorry if you didn't like my grip comment ... it was intended to lighten up the theme of the thread which turned rather serious after the "Know your Blood Type" comment. I won't play here in this Forum anymore and I'll leave road racing discussions to the experts. If I get a chance to try it at MV10, so much the better.

Carry On ..............

All I can do, is stand down.

Thank you for your opinion, no need to parse it out anymore.

N40GL
05-17-2012, 07:17 PM
Thought of another useful tip: don't wrap your thumbs around the spokes in the steering wheel. It's a recipe for broken thumbs (or broken wrists, if the airbag deploys).

Yeah - I'm way guilty of this one myself. Old habits die hard.

KBMarauder
05-18-2012, 09:59 AM
As veteran of many driving schools and countless lapping days, this post has convinced me that my Kenny Brown prepared Marauder is woefully inadequate and that I do not have the necessary ability to participate in this high level event. Instead I''ll take my unmodified 6cyl mustang with 190,000 miles to a Fun Day at Nelson Ledges or enjoy myself at Putnam Park or Mid Ohio. At least those venues encourage easy and safe participation for everyone without making the rules too intimidating.

And I was really looking forward to a whole field of beautiful Marauders just having a good time.

MM03MOK
05-18-2012, 10:53 AM
Point well taken, Chris!

We certainly veered away from the intent of this forum - to encourage anyone that performance road course driving is fun. I know some of you have years of experience but throwing all your knowledge into this thread has had an adverse affect.

Yes, we want to have a good time.

Can we please keep it simple and uncomplicated?

I think it best that I close this thread - which is all over the place. Please start any new thread with a specific topic in the thread title. That will make it simpler to follow a specific topic. If you need to ask something other than the topic of the thread, start a new thread. (This advice goes for any thread and any forum.)

I started performance road course driving at Putnam Park last Sept. with the Kenny Brown 25th anniversary event. I had no prior knowledge and came into the event and all its classroom training with no pre-conceived notions. I believe I did very well. Let's not scare away any-comers. It's not about speed, it's about safely having fun!!

Thank you!!! :bunny2: