New Ford Racing Aluminator with Trilogy - Trashed.

[FudPucker]

The NEW engine in my DTR Blew. I spared no expense in replacing it with a Ford Racing Aluminator at the suggestion of the man behind the blower, Jerry Barnes. After getting her dialed in at Mr. Norm's in Machesney Park and approximately 15,000 miles later, she died. Something about the driver's side PVC venting to the MAS?. I'm pissed. Over $12k put into this rebuild.

Input appreciated. Since I'm not a "mechanic", I had to put my trust into a few people.

[RacerX]

The Eaton and Trilogy installs are done without the vacuum/boost line that comes off the bottom of the lower plenum. Yours was done by the book I take it?

[J-MAN]

Sad news indeed! What kind of numbers was she putting down on the dyno? How much boost? What pullies?

[LANDY]

The Eaton and Trilogy installs are done without the vacuum/boost line that comes off the bottom of the lower plenum. Yours was done by the book I take it?
whats wrong with doing it by the book?

[SC Cheesehead]

whats wrong with doing it by the book?


^^^^^ What he said. ^^^^


:confused: Exactly what happened? Did you fry a piston or ventilate the block?


How many degrees timing?

Are you running an upgraded fuel system (larger fuel pump and BAP)?

[MOTOWN]

With the information given you would have to be a whodini to diagnose this one!

[guspech750]

If you have a BAP. Is it even working correctly?

Do you have a wideband gauge installed to monitor you Air and Fuel (lean or rich)

what fuel pump do you have?

Top gauge

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6n3xLwTWPS h71k3El8P9eGSiBZM3WQhJe6loX519 G0W7qQzW2Sg

Timing?

My Eaton swap is still running great with a dyno tune from Tim and Mr Norms.

I forgot to add................I beat the snot out of mine.

[justbob]

Do you have a wideband gauge installed to monitor you Air and Fuel (lean or rich)


This^


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[Spectragod]

The NEW engine in my DTR Blew. I spared no expense in replacing it with a Ford Racing Aluminator at the suggestion of the man behind the blower, Jerry Barnes. After getting her dialed in at Mr. Norm's in Machesney Park and approximately 15,000 miles later, she died. Something about the driver's side PVC venting to the MAS?. I'm pissed. Over $12k put into this rebuild.

Input appreciated. Since I'm not a "mechanic", I had to put my trust into a few people.

Well, they are cars, and mechanical issues do arise, whether it was a 12k motor, or a 30k motor.

Some specifics as to what actually happened will be quite helpful.

[breeze]

I got 2k in my heads and my car still isn't fixed. Gotta buy another head all over again.

[GAMike]

Thats too bad about your motor...... I am sure any advice Jerry Barnes gave you was the best he could offer based on his experience with Marauders, blowers and motors.... Hopefully you get a new motor soon and it works out better for you.



The NEW engine in my DTR Blew. I spared no expense in replacing it with a Ford Racing Aluminator at the suggestion of the man behind the blower, Jerry Barnes. After getting her dialed in at Mr. Norm's in Machesney Park and approximately 15,000 miles later, she died. Something about the driver's side PVC venting to the MAS?. I'm pissed. Over $12k put into this rebuild.

Input appreciated. Since I'm not a "mechanic", I had to put my trust into a few people.

[boatmangc]

I know when I pulled my Trilogy off last summer everything downstream of the pvc had a nice coat of oil on it.
I spoke with a prior vendor here who waited until it was back together before he chewed me out for not plugging off the PVC port in the lower intake while the blower was off....:mad2:
For now I installed the JLT catch can on the pass side and the pre filter on the drivers side.
I am amazed at how much oil shows up in it, especially after some spirited driving.

[Spectragod]

I know when I pulled my Trilogy off last summer everything downstream of the pvc had a nice coat of oil on it.
I spoke with a prior vendor here who waited until it was back together before he chewed me out for not plugging off the PVC port in the lower intake while the blower was off....:mad2:
For now I installed the JLT catch can on the pass side and the pre filter on the drivers side.
I am amazed at how much oil shows up in it, especially after some spirited driving.

The exact reason I wound up putting a pair of cans on after the new motor, just a preventive measure to make sure I don't run into this problem.

And while it was a lot of $$$ for the cans (42 Draft Designs), and the supporting hardware, it is there, in place, and does work. I have way more than 12k in my stroker.

[BODYMAN]

Open breathers for me! sorry to hear about this. I to also have a Alluminator but with a 2.3 Whipple also tuned by Tim & that was over 16,000 ish miles & all is still well for most part. Personally I hate PVC systems t start with just let the CC vent a easy as possible. Good luck with what ya end up doing

[Bradley G]

Are you taking any responsibility?
Did you do proper maintenence?

Was your fuel pressure determined by the level of boost?
I'm guessing this could have been avoided if you care to share.
The NEW engine in my DTR Blew. I spared no expense in replacing it with a Ford Racing Aluminator at the suggestion of the man behind the blower, Jerry Barnes. After getting her dialed in at Mr. Norm's in Machesney Park and approximately 15,000 miles later, she died. Something about the driver's side PVC venting to the MAS?. I'm pissed. Over $12k put into this rebuild.

Input appreciated. Since I'm not a "mechanic", I had to put my trust into a few people.

[justbob]

Well you asked for advice. Quite a bit was given, does any of it help? I and many others here have ran, or shall I say damn near over ran the Trilogy with the PCV exactly as shown with zero issues.

Did you ever get a replacement oil gauge? I recall you posting awile back saying yours crapped out.

Was your intercooler pump working?

Bad gas?

Detonation?

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[LANDY]

We need more info if you want us to help you. Like I tell to all the people I work on their cars, gauges are your best friend. Invest money on good ones

[guspech750]

OP Must not be too concerned with his motor issues.


What Evs.


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[yjmud]

I guess the gauge was not bad after all

[prchrman]

Let's not jump on the guy as he has enough heart ache as it is. I really feel for anyone who has put that much $ into something and it blows up. Stuff happens but cannot help but feel sorry for him regardless of who or what caused the issue.

[jstevens]

there is more to this story. I ran a trilogy with no issues as many others have.
Can't help with only partial story.

[sailsmen]

He asked for input. Garbage In Garbage Out.

If he really wants Input he needs to give us some Output.

[Vortech347]

This thread is lacking information.

[RacerX]

whats wrong with doing it by the book?
The Trilogy installation manual that we received last year still had errors in it. If you want to put boost into your PCV sytem/engine block, you go right ahead. Open up a Marauder PCV valve. You will find that it actually closes when there is too much vacuum (so you don't have 20+Hg inside your engine) and opens when there is less vacuum. The spring pushes the valve open with light vacuum. With pessure/boost, the valve is wide open. Take one apart and you will understand. I did. This is with the stock MM PCV valve btw.

[Siege]

The Trilogy installation manual that we received last year still had errors in it. If you want to put boost into your PCV sytem/engine block, you go right ahead.

FWIW the way the Trilogy manual routes the PCV hoses match the OEM Cobra configuration. The only reason I can think of why Ford would connect a pressurized port to the PCV system is to keep oil from pooling in the bottom of the lower intake.

When I installed mine I blocked the lower intake port and installed a catch can between the PCV valve and the port on the back of the blower.

Fudpucker> Does the Ford Racing engine warranty cover any of the damage?

[SC Cheesehead]

FWIW the way the Trilogy manual routes the PCV hoses match the OEM Cobra configuration. The only reason I can think of why Ford would connect a pressurized port to the PCV system is to keep oil from pooling in the bottom of the lower intake.

When I installed mine I blocked the lower intake port and installed a catch can between the PCV valve and the port on the back of the blower.

Fudpucker> Does the Ford Racing engine warranty cover any of the damage?


Same set up I have.

[LANDY]

The Trilogy installation manual that we received last year still had errors in it. If you want to put boost into your PCV sytem/engine block, you go right ahead. Open up a Marauder PCV valve. You will find that it actually closes when there is too much vacuum (so you don't have 20+Hg inside your engine) and opens when there is less vacuum. The spring pushes the valve open with light vacuum. With pessure/boost, the valve is wide open. Take one apart and you will understand. I did. This is with the stock MM PCV valve btw.
I understand and know what your talking about, but routing the lines by the book didn't cause the OP's engine failure.

[SC Cheesehead]

I understand and know what your talking about, but routing the lines by the book didn't cause the OP's engine failure.


Agree with that one, Landy. Lean and/or timing issues, IMO.

[RacerX]

I understand and know what your talking about, but routing the lines by the book didn't cause the OP's engine failure.
I never said it did. I just answered his original question.


FWIW the way the Trilogy manual routes the PCV hoses match the OEM Cobra configuration. The only reason I can think of why Ford would connect a pressurized port to the PCV system is to keep oil from pooling in the bottom of the lower intake.

When I installed mine I blocked the lower intake port and installed a catch can between the PCV valve and the port on the back of the blower.

Fudpucker> Does the Ford Racing engine warranty cover any of the damage?
The Cobra PCV valve is not the same as the Marauder. Ford will cover damage caused by factory improper assembly. Of course you'll have to ship it to them for inspection, etc.

[slickster]

I guess the guy that did this work did it wrong. 2nd you have to have some mechanic knowledge to have a 12k job under your hood. I would of have gauges with warning lights and sounds everywhere for everything and that whould of saved you

[sailsmen]

I monitor my guages.

In one second your engine can turn 100 times. Lots of cars with experienced drivers and guages have had engine failure.

Guages do not prevent engine failure. They give you information.

[Black&Gifted]

I monitor my guages.

In one second your engine can turn 100 times. Lots of cars with experienced drivers and guages have had engine failure.

Guages do not prevent engine failure. They give you information.

+1 and you also have know the parameters you are monitoring or it also does you no good.

[LANDY]

Gauges won't prevent engine failure but monitoring them does.

[justbob]

Atleast he had a legit shop do the work. Isn't that the only way you can get a warranty? I thought if you self installed they had a clause that stated no warranty? Besides, I thought this was a high compression one. Will they stand behind one that was F/I?

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[guspech750]

This thread is still alive?


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[03sport007]

Regardless of what happened..... still suck!!!!!! I'd be pissed too.

[IwantmyMMnow!]

Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 82

Methinks it may be a while before we hear from OP...

[guspech750]

If it was my engine and I posted about it. I'd be on here 25 times a day untill the Merc is fixed.

Weird.


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[bolsen]

I'm sensing a lack of caring...

[FudPucker]

Are you taking any responsibility?
Did you do proper maintenence?

Was your fuel pressure determined by the level of boost?
I'm guessing this could have been avoided if you care to share.

Seriously? lol. You crack me up. "take responsibility?"

I'm not a mechanic, nor do I play one on TV. This car was (and has always been) maintained by the dealer. Never a problem.

What happened was described perfectly a few posts up AND verified by JB @ Trilogy as a known issue, but never a bad one. Installing the cans circumvents the issue entirely. Still waiting to hear if the entire engine is trashed. Also wondering now if this may be what trashed the original engine as well which will leave more questions for JB. I just want my car back.......running.

[FudPucker]

This thread is still alive?


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It is now.

[Ms. Denmark]

Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 82

Methinks it may be a while before we hear from OP...
Some people only post when they have something really important to say. (Like my friend Jack who joined in '05 and hasn't broken 50 posts yet. Drives a mean SB BTW :cool:)

To the OP, hope you get this taken care of to your satisfaction and get the DTR back on the road.

[FudPucker]

FWIW the way the Trilogy manual routes the PCV hoses match the OEM Cobra configuration. The only reason I can think of why Ford would connect a pressurized port to the PCV system is to keep oil from pooling in the bottom of the lower intake.

When I installed mine I blocked the lower intake port and installed a catch can between the PCV valve and the port on the back of the blower.

Fudpucker> Does the Ford Racing engine warranty cover any of the damage?

I can't get anyone from Ford Racing to respond....period. Last time I spoke with JB, I asked him to make a phone call. After re-reading through posts and replies.....I kind of understand the problem, but question why it was never addressed by anyone when we were putting the new engine in. I don't know if this is a trilogy issue, or a FORD issue. I'm back to dealing with this again and will keep you all informed on my progress.

A death in the family and an ongoing illness with another family member has kept me from dealing with this immediately or responding to the posts.

[BODYMAN]

Youre in Chi-Town? Why not have Zack fix it? He is IMO the one person who will do everything right and not be afraid to tell you what the cause was if he finds it....

[slickster]

This was a power adder issue. The guy that tuned or installed it did something wrong. Lots of action needs monitoring even if it's done right

[justbob]

This was a power adder issue. The guy that tuned or installed it did something wrong. Lots of action needs monitoring even if it's done right

15,000 miles later causes me to disagree. You would notice something immediately if installed wrong or tuning errror. Besides, Tim has tuned several MM's around here with nothing but possitive results, he has had mine there as well.

My car has been hooked up the "Trilogy way" for almost four years now and 42,000 miles. Even at over the 'safe" H.P. numbers, mine is and alsways has been ready to hit the track in a moments notice or hit the highway for extended travels.

This car could have detonated from a number of reasons, bad gas? Weak fuel pressure? Maybe a bad oil pump? Plenty of them failures.

What was your oil pressure reading?

What was your AFR's at time of rattle?

Fuel pressure?

What was your FPDC at with your set up? What is your fuel set up?

Tim has been known to play it really safe and refuses to let anything be tuned passed safe numbers. Everything that I asked you he would have checked to only name a very few.

More details would certaintly help us.

Sent from my Ally while ruling the world from my toilet.

[Baaad GN]

Ya know guys if ya think about how many normal engines the car makers replace because something went wrong for no reason, now start making changes, any kind and in my opinion you ask for trouble. I've never gone to the strip without seeing someone blow something up whether pro's or a youngster. Zack has destroyed his share and he's the God of Marauders. I know how my Son felt after his first motor went bad, then replaced it and the second one went bad in less than 50 miles!!!!!!!!
Ya want to see a MAD person ya should have been around then. NO one could figure out what happened including Zack! My point is **** happens! Opps sorry

[MyBlackBeasts]

Its a machine. Machines fail. Even perfectly maintained and cared for machines fail. I've seen engines cared for by the book puke at 30k and others never cared for and abused still running at 150k.

Poop happens.

That's why racing parts are sold with limited or no warranty. You gotta pay to play.

If you want fuel mileage & warranty, buy a Kia.

Sorry the thing died, it sucks. Head down, move on, get your MM back on the road so you can get back to the WOT :D:D:D!

Good luck!

[BODYMAN]

Agree with Bob 100% on Tims tuning it is spot on & i also know alot of others on svtp that were tuned by him with 0 issues.

[FudPucker]

I wasn't hinting that any of this was Tim's fault. (Why are people so paranoid?)

[FudPucker]

Atleast he had a legit shop do the work. Isn't that the only way you can get a warranty? I thought if you self installed they had a clause that stated no warranty? Besides, I thought this was a high compression one. Will they stand behind one that was F/I?

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Sorry Bob...just saw this. This is the reason I stuck with the dealer doing the install. This was the H/C engine and was made for a S/C on top.

[Bradley G]

I am happy to add some comic relief, to what sounds like a very stressfull situation..
Very sorry to hear of your loss, not of your Marauder but whomever in your family that went beyond.
Are you considering selling?

Seriously? lol. You crack me up. "take responsibility?"

I'm not a mechanic, nor do I play one on TV. This car was (and has always been) maintained by the dealer. Never a problem.

What happened was described perfectly a few posts up AND verified by JB @ Trilogy as a known issue, but never a bad one. Installing the cans circumvents the issue entirely. Still waiting to hear if the entire engine is trashed. Also wondering now if this may be what trashed the original engine as well which will leave more questions for JB. I just want my car back.......running.

[FudPucker]

Nope. We're gonna do it again. Without the Trilogy I think.

[Bradley G]

When I read these stories and talk with guys that have had similar experiences;Like I heard last Saturday at justbobs house, "I'm on my third motor, and my car only has XXXXX miles on it"

[BODYMAN]

Nope. We're gonna do it again. Without the Trilogy I think.

:2thumbs: Hang in there! Not a bad idea though,build a nice N/A car capable of making good power.

[Curless]

So is there a trilogy for sale???

[Spectragod]

So is there a trilogy for sale???

Wow....vultures are out already? :confused:

[1 Bad Merc]

I would go with the Aluminator again and put the Trilogy back on it. You are already this far into it and you own the parts you might as well put it all back together supercharged. After you supercharged your car you will probably not be happy going back to NA. Besides, you dont have the original motor so the collectibility of the car is way down so build it to enjoy it. Just my .02.

[BODYMAN]

Wow....vultures are out already? :confused:

LOL :confused:

[Curless]

Wow....vultures are out already? :confused:


LOL! Just askin, actually more curious as to what went wrong with his car and to what has gone wrong on the others that have had problems. Seems like Trilogy is a decent company with a good background...why the issues then?

[FudPucker]

I would go with the Aluminator again and put the Trilogy back on it. You are already this far into it and you own the parts you might as well put it all back together supercharged. After you supercharged your car you will probably not be happy going back to NA. Besides, you dont have the original motor so the collectibility of the car is way down so build it to enjoy it. Just my .02.

But I DO have the original motor still. It's blown too. And kind of the same thing. This is why I'm thinking this either a Trilogy or Ford issue.

[1 Bad Merc]

I have been there and done that -#3 motor for me....my second one did not last 50 miles. I definitely know what you are going through. This time I basically said all or nothing and went stroker motor. I have been having a blast and I am glad I did it. I was able to sell another car to finance this motor so alot of people would not be able to do it. If you can I would say go for it......you only live once. Think of the stories you will be able to tell!!!!!

Good Luck and let us know how it turns out.

[hotford]

Wow....vultures are out already? :confused:
Well I guess these people never looked at the Trilogy I have listed.....
Not complete, but the hard to get peices are all there......lol

[Curless]

Well I guess these people never looked at the Trilogy I have listed.....
Not complete, but the hard to get peices are all there......lol

Once again I am not looking to buy one, just curious as to weather or not he was going to keep it or sell it. Sounds like alot of people have had issues...two three engines??? WTF? Must be something wrong with this set up...or the tune? What's the deal?

[sailsmen]

If people would post why their engines blew it might prevent others from having their engines blow.

[1 Bad Merc]

The first engine we have no idea about as it had some type of grit in the motor and in the oil. The second blew we believe due to a bad tune that was loaded from a corrupted program. Nothing we could have done could have prevented it and it took awhile to figure it out. Speedo would actually disappear when you were driving preventing the car from shifting. It was one of the craziest things that I have ever seen happening. Needless to say stuff happens and you just have to roll with the punches when you build cars.

I still remember thinking how the hell could JB drive his car with no tune for years on his' trilogy and I cant make it out of the driveway! Talk about frustrated.....Let me also go on record as saying "THANKS DAD"! For putting up with me for those two years and talking me off the ledge a couple of times. He knew the difficulties of building a high HP car and supported me through this whole process. I probably would not have made it through without his' help and guidance.

[Curless]

I would be interested to know if the people who had engine failures were running personal dyno tunes or tunes that were sent to them. I am in no way bashing the tuner (as I don't know who they are, nor do I want to) just curious if there was an issue with a combination that was tuned while the actual car was on the dyno.

[RacerX]

Jam this sucker in there:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/669/hrdp-1109-00_2007-supercharged-24-cylinder-engine.jpg

[sailsmen]

The first engine we have no idea about as it had some type of grit in the motor and in the oil. The second blew we believe due to a bad tune that was loaded from a corrupted program. Nothing we could have done could have prevented it and it took awhile to figure it out. Speedo would actually disappear when you were driving preventing the car from shifting. ....................

I would have sent an oil sample off for $30 and they probably could have told me the source of the "grit" or at the very least what the grit was.

[1 Bad Merc]

I never thought of it at the time. I was pushing to make the Louisville meet and trying to get another motor right away to see if I could make it. Turns out it took me two more years!

[sailsmen]

Very few people do. I learned about it from the Marine industry.

[1 Bad Merc]

But I DO have the original motor still. It's blown too. And kind of the same thing. This is why I'm thinking this either a Trilogy or Ford issue.

I really think you just need to get back on the horse again! I also believe these mod motors are very sensitive to detonation and the slightest amount (be it bad gas or whatever) can/will take it out.

I would rebuild the aluminator -stroke it out :) -and put the Trilogy back on. Do a nice conservative tune and enjoy the heck out of the car!

Good Luck.

[Spectragod]

I really think you just need to get back on the horse again! I also believe these mod motors are very sensitive to detonation and the slightest amount (be it bad gas or whatever) can/will take it out.

I would rebuild the aluminator -stroke it out :) -and put the Trilogy back on. Do a nice conservative tune and enjoy the heck out of the car!

Good Luck.

Can't be that sensitive, Lidio takes off & turns off the knock sensors on the motors he builds and tunes.

I'll lean towards the fact that mechanical items are not 100% reliable, couple that with high HP, and it's a recipe for a failure at some point.

[FudPucker]

Jam this sucker in there:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/669/hrdp-1109-00_2007-supercharged-24-cylinder-engine.jpg

HA! THAT'S a motor!!

[FudPucker]

I would be interested to know if the people who had engine failures were running personal dyno tunes or tunes that were sent to them. I am in no way bashing the tuner (as I don't know who they are, nor do I want to) just curious if there was an issue with a combination that was tuned while the actual car was on the dyno.

My first engine ran fine with no tune, for 105,000 miles! I read through the board and chalked it up to wear....in that not many people were getting more than 100,000 on their s/c marauders.

Time for a new engine, it was recommended by Jerry Barnes at Trilogy to use the h/c Aluminator. Took 2 weeks to find one.....but we did. Rand like a *****-ape for a year (almost to the day too!). This one too, they're telling me that there's a hole burned in the piston caused by detonation. What "caused" the detention? Everyone has a theory....from bad gas to a oil covered MAF fuel sensor. But why no warning lights? It ran rough 3 day before blowing. Nt for very long.....but long enough to concern me. I brought it in for service, told em what was happenings and had the oil changed. They gave it back saying they couldn't duplicate the problem and that it was running fine.

2 days later, I go to pass farm implement out in the country ( didn't even punch it.....just accelerated to about 70 and right before getting there, lost all power. I said " oh f***).......but then after coasting for a half mile, it seemed fine. When I went to get off the farm road and turned onto the main drag, she just died and I didn't true to start it. Called a tow truck and prayed.

I don't buy the "bad gas" theory. There would be a lot more people with problems, than just me.

The car will be rebuilt. How, and by whom, are things I'm contemplating right now.

[FudPucker]

And now.......I find this.

FORD RACING ALUMINATOR 4.6 DOHC LONG BLOCK M-6007-A46NA NOW OBSOLETE FROM FORD*

Gee.... I wonder why???

[na svt]

This was the H/C engine and was made for a S/C on top.
What do you mean by this? If someone told you this they are wrong.


This one too, they're telling me that there's a hole burned in the piston caused by detonation. What "caused" the detention? Everyone has a theory....from bad gas to a oil covered MAF fuel sensor.

Why is oil on the MAF? A oil covered MAF would have resulted in terrible driveability.

[Captain Dynball]

Doesn't matter how strong it is or how much you invest. If the wrong conditions are present it could blow an engine made by God himself. My GT500 with 2200 miles dropped a lean code on me. I'm taking it as soon as I can to a tuner to get it retuned (by someone intelligent). Even just cruising around while running lean this 2200 mile engine could pop. Like everyone else said, you have to have a wideband. Also, try to pick a shop that specializes in Ford's.

[guspech750]

Yep. A wideband is your best friend like in my earlier post. It has saved my motor as we speak. I noticed the gauge was reading lean when giving the car more throttle and rich at times as I let off. So my wideband saved my motor.

GET ONE!!!

I still have not found out the issue yet, but I have been tinkering with it little by little as time and motivation permits.

[FudPucker]

What do you mean by this? If someone told you this they are wrong.

Why is oil on the MAF? A oil covered MAF would have resulted in terrible driveability.

Jerry Barnes is the one who said to get the high compression engine. I was wrong though.....he suggested the N/A version for the Trilogy.

As far as OIL on the MAF.....this remains a mystery. Nothing "blew". There was no oil or evidence of a leak on the motor.

[Dragcity]

Bummer man. Sorry you had issues. Could be as simple as a poorly manufactured piston..

Blowers put a lot of stress on things. One little air pocket in a casting and Poof over time.

[jon5212]

I've never understood someone recommending a high compression engine when its going to be in a boosted application.

I see high compression N/A all the time... never high compression + Boost unless its a full out race motor.

[Spectragod]

I've never understood someone recommending a high compression engine when its going to be in a boosted application.

I see high compression N/A all the time... never high compression + Boost unless its a full out race motor.

Lidio built a high compression stroker for my MM that was and is boosted with a twin screw, I really don't think it's a full out race motor. Of course, it could blow up tomorrow I guess.:confused:

[guspech750]

I've never understood someone recommending a high compression engine when its going to be in a boosted application.

I see high compression N/A all the time... never high compression + Boost unless its a full out race motor.

I would buy/build a boosted high compression motor without hesitation.

If my Eaton swapped stocker ever pukes, a boosted HC motor will take its place.


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[MOTOWN]

I've never understood someone recommending a high compression engine when its going to be in a boosted application.

I see high compression N/A all the time... never high compression + Boost unless its a full out race motor.

I guess you dont understand engine building and tuning! this is nothing new, and has been done and proven time and time again:rolleyes:

[na svt]

I've never understood someone recommending a high compression engine when its going to be in a boosted application.

I see high compression N/A all the time... never high compression + Boost unless its a full out race motor.

10:1 is not high for a mod motor. Reducing compression to 8.5:1 will drop power by 50hp/50tq at the same boost level. The lower compression will also have much lower per-boost power and reduced driveability.

[sailsmen]

"The boosted 10.1:1 motor produced 600 hp, while the 8.1:1 produced 533 hp for a difference of 67 hp. Remember, the power difference between the NA version of the motors was 36 hp (401 hp minus 365 hp). If we multiply the original power difference between the two NA motors (36 hp) by the pressure ratio (1.63), we get a calculated difference of 59 hp. OK, so 59 hp is a tad off the 67 hp actually achieved, but remember that the drop in compression also resulted in a slight drop in boost pressure, which should be factored in as well.

Read more: http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfs_070022_ford_compression_r atio/index.html#ixzz1RchcBOIe"

Low Boost for s/C was when they still used points and a timing gun.

[jon5212]

I guess you dont understand engine building and tuning! this is nothing new, and has been done and proven time and time again:rolleyes:

I would not daily drive a high comp + high boost motor. Track only thats fine but I don't have 10 grand to dish out for a new motor each time it pops.

Kinda strange when the LSX guys don't really do the same thing for daily driver cars.

And yes I do understand quite a bit... my duramax is 18.5:1 compression and I run 32 PSI boost. But of course the rods in that make a 4.6 look like a paper clip :)

[jon5212]

Lidio built a high compression stroker for my MM that was and is boosted with a twin screw, I really don't think it's a full out race motor. Of course, it could blow up tomorrow I guess.:confused:


Forged pistons/rods? Forged crank? Sleeves?

[sailsmen]

I would not daily drive a high comp + high boost motor. Track only thats fine but I don't have 10 grand to dish out for a new motor each time it pops.

Kinda strange when the LSX guys don't really do the same thing for daily driver cars.

And yes I do understand quite a bit... my duramax is 18.5:1 compression and I run 32 PSI boost. But of course the rods in that make a 4.6 look like a paper clip :)

We have a member that has over 240,000 on one of which over 160,000 are boosted on an OEM engine.

You don't understand the electronics on todays cars and how they work.

[RacerX]

Forged pistons/rods? Forged crank? Sleeves?
Of course that makes it safer if you have a forged rotating assembly. With a safe tune, rich and not too far advanced on timing, the stock motor holds up quite well. Mine's forged and @ 10.68:1cr with 14psi, 93 octane, 17° and between 11.7 to 12.1 AFR. Been beating the snot out of it trying to make it fail too! :D

[MOTOWN]

Of course that makes it safer if you have a forged rotating assembly. With a safe tune, rich and not too far advanced on timing, the stock motor holds up quite well. Mine's forged and @ 10.68:1cr with 14psi, 93 octane, 17° and between 11.7 to 12.1 AFR. Been beating the snot out of it trying to make it fail too! :D

My kinda build!!!

[jon5212]

We have a member that has over 240,000 on one of which over 160,000 are boosted on an OEM engine.

You don't understand the electronics on todays cars and how they work.


I do understand, however I rather play it safe with a 10-15K motor. I'm much more familiar with the LSX arena... and they don't up compression on a high boost motor.

Most of the "street" cars are running LQ9's which are 9.5:1 from the factory and putting 10-14 PSI in them and getting 550-600+ at the back tires.

[sailsmen]

You obviously don't. The only reason to lower compression at a given boost is to lower HP.
Boost does not increase the peak load in the chamber. It only increases the duration of the peak load.

Back in the day of points, vac advance and carbs there were finite adjustments at any given RPM. This ain't your fathers Buick.

[LANDY]

High CR with boost is can be done. The problem is how much boost? Different combos will also react different ways when it comes to the amount of boost and octane needed to compensate.
I ran 10.3.1 at 12 psi for a while, the tune needeed to be richer than normal to cool down the cylinder walls, make power and last. At the end of the day this combo will still be limited on power in a street car because of pump gas.

[FudPucker]

How about a Mustang 5.0 crate engine as a replacement? I have to get this thing on the road.

[Mike M]

You obviously don't. The only reason to lower compression at a given boost is to lower HP.
Boost does not increase the peak load in the chamber. It only increases the duration of the peak load.

Back in the day of points, vac advance and carbs there were finite adjustments at any given RPM. This ain't your fathers Buick.
And mechanical advance.

[Spectragod]

Forged pistons/rods? Forged crank? Sleeves?

Yes, Eagle rods, crank, Diamond pistons etc.....

[FudPucker]

Well now.....isn't this (http://www.fordracingparts.com/announcements/include/FRPP_Limited_Warranty_Statemen t_2012v2.pdf) an interesting find. IS there light at the end of this tunnel....or is it the train? ;-)

[Mike M]

Don't let them know it's supercharged.

[MyBlackBeasts]

Well now.....isn't this (http://www.fordracingparts.com/announcements/include/FRPP_Limited_Warranty_Statemen t_2012v2.pdf) an interesting find. IS there light at the end of this tunnel....or is it the train? ;-)

"Damage due to addition of power adders such as superchargers" - this is their out...

Good luck

[MMBLUE]

"Damage due to addition of power adders such as superchargers" - this is their out...

Good luck


Not if he puts it back together in stock configuration.;)

[justbob]

How long did you drive it while detonating? Was it pinging the three days that it was running rough? Or just when you passed the tractor?

Sent from my Ally while ruling the world from my toilet.

[ReefBlueCoupe]

I've never understood someone recommending a high compression engine when its going to be in a boosted application.

I see high compression N/A all the time... never high compression + Boost unless its a full out race motor.

That used to be the case before it was easy to tune for that with EFI. Look at the new 5.0 Coyote for example. 11:1 compression from the factory and swallowing lots of boost like a junkie swallowing pills. Same with LS engines, etc.

[jon5212]

^^^ Again the LS guys don't do this. I'm on a large LS site. The LQ4 and LQ9 aren't close to 10:1 from the factory, and most guys do not go higher compression when adding more than 8-10 PSI boost.

Sure you can go 10.5 or 11:1 with high boost, but you're also either running E85 or race gas.

I'm talking daily driver type cars.

Case in point, guy has a daily driver 2000 trans am. He's got a full built 408 with a GT55 running pump gas. He's running 8.5:1 compression... wonder why that is? He's running 15 PSI, and he puts down 893 RWHP. Thats without meth or anything.

[BODYMAN]

Alot of good points here from both sides. However take a look how many 10.5:1 motors do you see taking 20+psi in a DD? On my low comp Alluminator I run 20.5 psi and DD her on pump gas & have 0 issues. However the new 5.0 Stangs Ive seen quite a few with TT set ups in the 16-17psi on pump gas DD with no problems also. What Landy stated is pretty much spot on as to why we see what we do on certain S/C cars & what CR they are running. As for some of the GM motors them stock motors hands down can take more of a beating then our mod motors. Is a 10.5:1 motor more likely to detonate then a 8.5:1 due to certain things? Id say so & with a high boosted P/A give less room for error.

[ReefBlueCoupe]

^^^ Again the LS guys don't do this. I'm on a large LS site. The LQ4 and LQ9 aren't close to 10:1 from the factory, and most guys do not go higher compression when adding more than 8-10 PSI boost.

Sure you can go 10.5 or 11:1 with high boost, but you're also either running E85 or race gas.

I'm talking daily driver type cars.

Case in point, guy has a daily driver 2000 trans am. He's got a full built 408 with a GT55 running pump gas. He's running 8.5:1 compression... wonder why that is? He's running 15 PSI, and he puts down 893 RWHP. Thats without meth or anything.

Yup, if you're purposefully building one for boost, lower compression is the way to go.

If you're boosting your factory ride, though, and aren't rebuilding the engine, you can get away with lots of boost and high compression, again, thanks to EFI and the ability to tune for it.

There are plenty of 6-700RWHP, stock engine, boosted Coyote daily drivers out there. I'd hardly call those race cars.

As far as lot of boost and race gas, yes, people do that. That's where the beauty of quick pulley and tune changes come in to play. Show up at the track, swap pulleys and tunes, run your huge numbers.. put the other pulley and 93 octane tune back in, and go about your business.

LS1's are 10:1 and LS6's are 10.5:1 - Plenty of people supercharge/turbocharge these without touching the bottom end and make huge numbers.

Once you get to a certain power level.. a very high power level, I agree that you should look into building the bottom end for lower compression and boost. For most people though, that is no longer a necessary step with today's EFI systems and their tuning capabilities.

[jon5212]

^^^ Then explain why the OP's motor popped :) and Mod motors are much more expensive than the LS series.

I'm just saying my person preference for a daily car would be a lower compression boosted motor, I wouldn't take the chance on a high compression boosted motor for a daily car, unless I found a money tree growing in the yard.

[ReefBlueCoupe]

^^^ Then explain why the OP's motor popped :) and Mod motors are much more expensive than the LS series.

I'm just saying my person preference for a daily car would be a lower compression boosted motor, I wouldn't take the chance on a high compression boosted motor for a daily car, unless I found a money tree growing in the yard.

http://www.lxcoupe.com/images/lol.gif
I have no idea why his engine popped. Has it been torn down and do has there been a post detailing exactly what went wrong yet?

I understand your preference. I'm just saying that it's not as important as it once was to build a lower compression engine strictly for boost, and modern engine/blower combinations prove that :beer:

Another reason I like LS engines. If one blows up, who cares! A couple hundred bucks and you're back in business! :D :cool4:

[na svt]

5.0s can take good amount of boost because of their variable cam timing. At higher RPMs, under full throttle conditions the intake cams are retarded and that reduces the dynamic compression ratiuo significantly.

The OPS engine popped because of something other than it's flat top pistons.

A properly tuned 10.4:1 engine is fine with 15psi. It will have better pre-boost power and offer better driveability than one that has 8.5:1 compression...there's no denying this fact. If you want to run 20psi the CR should be lowered but even then 8,5:1 is too damn low for a mod motor.

[BODYMAN]

5.0s can take good amount of boost because of their variable cam timing. At higher RPMs, under full throttle conditions the intake cams are retarded and that reduces the dynamic compression ratiuo significantly.

The OPS engine popped because of something other than it's flat top pistons.

A properly tuned 10.4:1 engine is fine with 15psi. It will have better pre-boost power and offer better driveability than one that has 8.5:1 compression...there's no denying this fact. If you want to run 20psi the CR should be lowered but even then 8,5:1 is too damn low for a mod motor.

I would have to agree with you on that Todd! 8.5:1 is a dam low CR ratio. My personal prferences would be something in the 9.5:1 area. If it wasnt for getting my motor for a steal I would not have had issues with going with a high CR Alluminator & slightly less boost.

[justbob]

So as for the LS engines, do people generaly run lower compression because they feel safer and make "good enough" power or will they not take it as well as mod motors normally do?

Sent from my Ally while ruling the world from my toilet.

[LANDY]

So as for the LS engines, do people generaly run lower compression because they feel safer and make "good enough" power or will they not take it as well as mod motors normally do?

Sent from my Ally while ruling the world from my toilet. my experience with ls motors is they love compression. The ls's i have seen run a lower than 10.1 CR are those making over 800rwhp. Offcourse o a well thought out setup which isn'thard to do.

[99SVT]

On the other hand, the 3rd gen hemi engines don't like boost and high compression. My tuner had a turbo 6.1l on the dyno and was only able to run 11* of timing with 8# of boost on pump gas.

Mod and ls motors have a fairly high timing threshold, its mainly due to combustion chamber design.

Sent from my LT15a using Tapatalk 2

[MOTOWN]

We will soon see how much boost a 10.1 mod can swallow! looking at 16-18psi!!!

[sailsmen]

Identical mod motors except c/r is 8.5 on one and 10.0 on the other. They each make equal power. The 8.5 will require more boost to make the same power as the 10.0.
All else being equal I do not see how more boost with lower compression results in a more durable mod motor than less boost with a higher compression.

[na svt]

Identical mod motors except c/r is 8.5 on one and 10.0 on the other. They each make equal power. The 8.5 will require more boost to make the same power as the 10.0.

The 8.5:1 engine will make a lot less tq which makes for a terrible combo for pushing around a heavy, automatic trans car.

[CWright]

The 8.5:1 engine will make a lot less tq which makes for a terrible combo for pushing around a heavy, automatic trans car.


No problems launching my beast with 8:5:1 :D

RWHP: 537 RWHP/525 RWTQ @ 18LBS

[DOOM]

The 8.5:1 engine will make a lot less tq which makes for a terrible combo for pushing around a heavy, automatic trans car.

LMMFAO!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Are you kidding me!!!???

Yo check this out!


http://m.youtube.com/my_favorites#/watch?v=AtnqONLZx-c

AtnqONLZx-c

http://m.youtube.com/my_favorites#/watch?v=PIuo4lrUSxE

PIuo4lrUSxE

Dead stomp!

http://m.youtube.com/my_favorites#/watch?v=e1cyJCh2Oqc

e1cyJCh2Oqc


My car is pushing 500RWTQ on a street tune with 93 pump gas!

And guess what motor is in my car! :D

[CWright]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaMrlgfoTrg


Just a light touch of the gas pedal! :eek:

[FudPucker]

http://elginet.com/Marauder/FordRacingAluminator20120801_0 001.jpg

http://elginet.com/Marauder/FordRacingAluminator20120801_0 002.jpg

http://elginet.com/Marauder/FordRacingAluminator20120801_0 003.jpg

http://elginet.com/Marauder/FordRacingAluminator20120801_0 004.jpg

http://elginet.com/Marauder/FordRacingAluminator20120801_0 005.jpg

http://elginet.com/Marauder/FordRacingAluminator20120801_0 006.jpg

http://elginet.com/Marauder/FordRacingAluminator20120801_0 007.jpg

So.....there you have it. All the mechanics at the shop are calling this a tune that was too lean, or a case of really bad gas. What's your thoughts??

[MMBLUE]

I don't see how a tune can single out a few cylinders and forget about the rest WTF. Although it does have the lean look. Whoever tuned it would have seen the AF ratio at WOT and figured it was too lean then during tuning. :confused:

[na svt]

No problems launching my beast with 8:5:1 :D

RWHP: 537 RWHP/525 RWTQ @ 18LBS


Are you kidding me!!!???

My car is pushing 500RWTQ on a street tune with 93 pump gas!

And guess what motor is in my car! :D



Just a light touch of the gas pedal! :eek:


Fellas, I'm talking about pre-boost power, you know, like when driving around town. Any car will get out of it's own way on-boost, even a heavy, auto trans car like a marauder.

537rwhp with 18psi is a good reason to go with higher compression as is only 500rwtq on 93.

8.5:1 compression is great for a factory built car or an engine that has terrible combustion chambers. The fact remains that a 1.8 point drop in compression will reduce rw hp and tq by 50 each.

Everyone has their opinion on this subject, it's like asking "what's the best color." In this case my favorite color is higher static compression with a little less boost. I'm not knocking your low compression combos as they are yours and if you're happy with them that's great. However, I would choose to go that route.

[Curless]

Its definitely a tune issue. Timing can do this too. Boost, timing, and quality of fuel is the key to longevity with a boosted application. The higher the compression, and or boost, the higher octane of fuel is needed. Have you sent a sample of your fuel out to be sure its right? We just had this happen on a NO2 engine and it turns out the fuel lines i the car are breaking down over time and plugging the carb ports and the solenoids....

[Siege]

So.....there you have it. All the mechanics at the shop are calling this a tune that was too lean, or a case of really bad gas. What's your thoughts??

The damage is obviously detonation.

The causes of detonation (in my order of likelihood) are:
Tune
Fuel pump
Gas quality
Severely clogged fuel injector (unlikely that two are clogged enough to cause damage without driveability issues).


I don't see how a tune can single out a few cylinders and forget about the rest WTF. Although it does have the lean look. Whoever tuned it would have seen the AF ratio at WOT and figured it was too lean then during tuning. :confused:

All cylinders will knock at a different time. On a Marauder it is usually the rear cylinders (without a cooling mod) since they run the hottest. The tune needs to be rich enough to prevent detonation on the cylinders most prone to knock.

If you decide to rebuild I highly recommend monitoring (I use a Scangauge) at the very least the Fuel Pump Duty Cycle and Intake Air Temperature sensor to catch issues before they cause damage.

[bugsyc]

The Trilogy installation manual that we received last year still had errors in it. If you want to put boost into your PCV sytem/engine block, you go right ahead. Open up a Marauder PCV valve. You will find that it actually closes when there is too much vacuum (so you don't have 20+Hg inside your engine) and opens when there is less vacuum. The spring pushes the valve open with light vacuum. With pessure/boost, the valve is wide open. Take one apart and you will understand. I did. This is with the stock MM PCV valve btw.
So,are you saying not to use a cobra PVC valve and stick with the Maraurder PVC valve??

[LANDY]

That looks like detonation to me too. I could have been due to an agressive tune, or bad gas. Regardless the key is to know your car. Check sparkplugs, have gauges and know how to read them and most of all listen to your engine at WOT which not many people do. Most tuners tune combos like this at 11.7-9 afr and i disagree to that. I ran over 50 passes on 12psi on 10.3.1 cr at 11.2 afr and it held fine untill i decided to lean it to12.0 agaisnt my tuners recomendation. It only took one pass to crack the block. Live and learn!

[ReefBlueCoupe]

Curious what the tuner says about the OP's stuff.