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RacerX
08-23-2012, 06:06 PM
This is taken from a post TMHutch on Corral and other sites put up that I thought was very interesting. I've been running 5w30 for quite a while now.

"Oil Viscosity for DOHC Ford
Many people have provided valuable information on the proper weight oil to run in our modular engines so I thought I'd condense it into a single post.

The bottom line is, we really shouldn’t be running 5w20. The switch from 5w30 in 1999 to 5w20 in 2001 (on identical engines) had nothing to do with wear or reliability issues and everything to do with Ford saving a few bucks by meeting CAFE standards. At the time Ford was fined $5.50 for every 1/10th of a MPG under the target average of 27.5 MPG for every vehicle manufactured. To help meet the target Ford changed from 5w30 to 5w20 and was able to improve mileage by 1/16th of a MPG and meet their goals.

Here is a quote from one of Fords Product Design Engineers:

Mike Riley, Product Design Engineer with Ford Motor Company:

Quote:
"Moving to 5w20 was driven by ... CAFE requirements. The company believes the switch to lighter viscosity 5w20 oils will reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 190,000 metric tons a year and reduce US fuel consumption by over 21,000,000 gallons a year."



While most people understand the main function of oil is to protect the engine, Ford's only concern in that respectis that the engine survives the warranty period. I especially appreciate Scott Whiteheads insight on this topic. He worked for Ford testing different engine oils in modular engines and here is what he had to say:

Scott Whitehead - Engine Development Systems Engineer, Ford Motor Company:

Quote:
"I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please. This is especially true in 4v motors. 5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures."


Ford Racing Group apparently feels the same way:

FRPP Group:

Quote:
"DO NOT go back to using 5w-20"



Real world experience seems to back up the advice of these experts too. Some of the best data from the modular community has come from Nick McKinney:

Quote:
"I have said it a few times now, heavier oil has better protection especially in the cam bores. ---I get 2-3 sets of modular heads a week through here, and any lay person just from looking would pick the 500,000 mile cores run on 15/40 diesel spec all their lives over the typical Mustang head run 50,000 miles on the light stuff"


Fleets typically run their vehicles 250,000 to 500,000 miles! I've heard Nicks experience echoed several times by fleet managers. They wouldn’t run a 5w-20 oil for one minute.

There have been concerns over bearing tolerances and lash adjuster pump up with heavier weight oils but these are largely overblown. Bearings tolerances haven’t changed since the 60's and much of the small difference found at the crank bearings is because of the aluminum blocks different expansion rate. A reality check for those concerned is the fact that while the 01+ modulars were spec'd to 5w-20w oil, the exact same engine pre 01 was spec'd with 30w. When Shelby modifies the 4.6's he covers the 5w-20 spec sticker under the hood with a 5w-30 spec sticker. In Australia all their modulars are spec'd for 5w-30w and higher because they have no CAFE standards. And the GT500/GT's with the exact same bearing clearances are spec'd for 5w-50w oil.

Bottom line, the thicker the oil, the better the protection. Just make sure you're running the proper weight if you live in colder environments.

There are lighter weight oils made from better stock that also contain anti-wear additives that provide superior protection (Red Line, Amsoil Etc.) but these additives often preclude the oil from meeting CAFE standards, not that I care about that for my limited use hot rod.

In the end I think it is best to stick with the wisdom and experience of a Ford engine development engineer who spent hours blowing up DOHC engines using different oil viscosities. So for now, 5w-30 Mobil 1, Amsoil, Red Line and any diesel spec oil get my vote."

SpartaPerformance
08-23-2012, 07:14 PM
Every car manufacturer went to 5w20 for same reason, and some even use 0w

guspech750
08-23-2012, 07:36 PM
Interesting stuff.


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Eaton Swap + 4.10's = Wreeeeeeeeeedom!!

slickster
08-23-2012, 07:46 PM
so cold temps can thickin oil and thats bad for early morning starts for oil now has a hard time circulating and you can actualy here knock knock tap tap for a few seconds. is this why you need 20 in the winter and 30 in the summer?

TFB
08-23-2012, 08:28 PM
I use Mobil 1 0W-40 in mine...

Mr. Man
08-23-2012, 08:41 PM
so cold temps can thickin oil and thats bad for early morning starts for oil now has a hard time circulating and you can actualy here knock knock tap tap for a few seconds. is this why you need 20 in the winter and 30 in the summer?
I always was under the impression the first # was the starting viscosity and the oil thinkened up with heat. The higher the number the thicker the oil. Am I wrong?

Pat
08-23-2012, 08:48 PM
Will this issue ever be settled? There are many who swear by 5W20 because the manual says so. Now we hear the engineers say 5W30. I've got 110,000 miles on the Silverback with no issues from oil viscosity that I can identify. No knocking at start up, winter or summer. Oil changed regularly @ 3-4 K, no solid matter, water or grey looking goop.

If I switch to 5W30 now my engine will probably have a cardiac arrest (it's Murphy's law).

I'm staying with 5W20, daily driver, minimal WOT (because that's just the way I drive).

I'll let James79stang testify, he's got 200K on his MM.

TFB
08-23-2012, 09:04 PM
I always was under the impression the first # was the starting viscosity and the oil thinkened up with heat. The higher the number the thicker the oil. Am I wrong?

No oil thickens with heat, all oils cold are at least 15-20x thicker cold than hot... Don't believe me? Put a quart of 5W-20 in the freezer and see how it pours out of the container vs at room temp, which is still thicker than at full operating temp... 5W-20 cold is far thicker than even a hot 50 or 60W...

If you putter around and seldom go WOT the 5W-20 is more than adequate, if you beat on it and especially with a power adder, a thicker grade will give better protection... There is a reason Shelby specs a 5W-50 oil vs 5W-20 used in the standard Stangs...

slickster
08-23-2012, 09:20 PM
I always was under the impression the first # was the starting viscosity and the oil thinkened up with heat. The higher the number the thicker the oil. Am I wrong?
no In single grade oils, the lower the number, the better it flows at cold temperatures. Likewise, the higher the number, the thicker the oil. In regard to multigrade oils, the first number in the code, such as 10W in SAE 10W-30, means that the oil can still be pumped by the engine at a temperature as low as a single grade 10W oil. A 5W, like in SAE 5W-30, can be pumped at an even lower temperature, and a 0W, like in SAE 0W-30, will pump at the lowest tested temperatures. The W in the designation is commonly thought to represent weight, but in fact stands for Winter. The second number, 30, indicates how well the oil will flow when heated to 100C/212F or higher.

As engines have become more technologically advanced, engine clearance levels and viscosity grade recommendations may have been reduced, hence the reason your father swore by SAE 20W-50 and your engine calls for SAE 5W-30. If a thicker oil is used in some of todays high-tech, small clearance engines, oil pressure may increase, but the possibility of improper lubrication can result if the oil can not adequately flow through the engine.

slickster
08-23-2012, 09:35 PM
No oil thickens with heat, all oils cold are at least 15-20x thicker cold than hot... Don't believe me? Put a quart of 5W-20 in the freezer and see how it pours out of the container vs at room temp, which is still thicker than at full operating temp... 5W-20 cold is far thicker than even a hot 50 or 60W...

If you putter around and seldom go WOT the 5W-20 is more than adequate, if you beat on it and especially with a power adder, a thicker grade will give better protection... There is a reason Shelby specs a 5W-50 oil vs 5W-20 used in the standard Stangs...
that is true i use to have that problem until i went to 5w20 in a contour

ctrlraven
08-24-2012, 05:43 AM
About 15-20k miles ago I switched from Mobil 1 5W-20 to Mobil 1 5W-30 high mileage. I've been thinking about switching over to 5W-30 in my Taurus as well since it calls for 5W-20.

SC Cheesehead
08-24-2012, 05:59 AM
I ran 5W-20 in my car up until the last couple of oil changes, have now switched to 5W-30, but have stayed with Motorcraft semi-syn.

Rockettman
08-24-2012, 06:21 AM
All the cars in the stable will be going to 5W-30 from now on.

Great / informative read. Thanks for posting it.

MENINBLK
08-24-2012, 07:33 AM
Being there are temperature swings in NYC, I plan on running just as I have been.
For the April -> October months, I run Mobil 1 5W-30 Full Synthetic.
For the October -> April months, I run Mobil 1 5W-20 Full Synthetic.
Either way, it comes with a fresh Motorcraft Oil Filter.

The price is the same and knowing you get a little bit easier start below freezing
is the key for my needs.
For all LONG trips, regardless of temperatures, I make sure I got 5W-30 in the pan...

Rockettman
08-24-2012, 09:34 AM
Being there are temperature swings in NYC, I plan on running just as I have been.
For the April -> October months, I run Mobil 1 5W-30 Full Synthetic.
For the October -> April months, I run Mobil 1 5W-20 Full Synthetic.
Either way, it comes with a fresh Motorcraft Oil Filter.

The price is the same and knowing you get a little bit easier start below freezing
is the key for my needs.
For all LONG trips, regardless of temperatures, I make sure I got 5W-30 in the pan...

Your cold starting "ease", is the same with both those viscosities. "5W".

Paul T. Casey
08-24-2012, 11:01 AM
This got me thinking a bit. I'll be doing my 75th oil change next week, and already have the MC 5W-20. I've beat the daylights out of the car with no issues to the engine (diff. clutches are a different story). Still, that's an impressive list of experts reccomending the switch. On the other hand, when racing the lighter oil would seem to make sense as a thinner coat would create less resistance to the moving mechanical parts. Also, the thinner oil, IMHO also is well thinner and less likely to build up between said parts. Still worth considering.

TooManyFords
08-24-2012, 11:27 AM
In the "for what it's worth" dept.

Two weeks ago I changed my oil in the race motor since having it on the dyno in July. We broke the engine in with 10W-40 non-synthetic and a generic car quest filter. The motor probably had maybe 10 miles, several dyno pulls, and maybe 10 hours of idle time low-speed tuning. Mind you, I called Modular Mustang Racing to ask them what they recommended for their MMR 1500 motor and this is what they recommended. I put Castrol GTX 10W40 non-synthetic back in it with a Motocraft 820S filter.

Tuesday night, I wanted to get the car out, and while warming up in the garage, the oil filter burst sending 4.5 of those minty fresh quarts of oil onto the garage floor and driveway.

No damage to the motor as I shut it off when the red light lit up, but I had one hell of a mess to clean up. I called MMR again and this time they recommended 5W-40, but I think I need to call them back and ask why the oil pump created so much pressure to blow the filter like it did. I have another 820S back on it and ended up buying 5W-30 to get it filled up. So, not sure if the viscosity is the issue, or is something wrong with the oil pump, don't know. Since the problem, I see 100-120 psi on startup and up to 70 psi when warmed up above idle. Seems normal enough to me.

TFB
08-24-2012, 11:50 AM
Since the problem, I see 100-120 psi on startup and up to 70 psi when warmed up above idle. Seems normal enough to me.

With that amount of pressure a 5W-30 will be fine, but I'd be using a high performance filter that had a greater burst rating...

TooManyFords
08-24-2012, 11:51 AM
With that amount of pressure a 5W-30 will be fine, but I'd be using a high performance filter that had a greater burst rating...

Which was the consensus of my racing buddies. I am switching to a Wix Racing filter.

fastblackmerc
08-24-2012, 12:05 PM
One other reason for the switch to lighter weight oil is the tolerances between the moving parts is much much less than motors built years ago. You need a thinner oil to get into those tighter tolerances.

RacerX
08-24-2012, 12:09 PM
100-120psi on startup. Tight tolerances on the bearing and cam clearances! 10w40 isn't what's creating all that pressure. I can't remember, it that an MMR/billet oil pump?

TFB
08-24-2012, 12:52 PM
Oooh boy we have tighter tolerances again... NOT the cause...

A tolerance is the difference in the allowable measurement... For instance if a bearing tolerance is between .0015 & .0025 the .001 difference is the tolerance(ask any machinist if you don't believe me)... Decreasing tolerance would mean the spec is closer to optimum, say between .0018 & .0023 which basically means it's built closer to optimum specs, NOT that they are necessarily smaller...

Most clearances in engines of today are similar to those of years past, if they were reduced too far, the engine would starve for oil when cold and oil was 20x or more thicker... Yes TOLERANCES are tighter, CLEARANCES generally are not...

MOTOWN
08-24-2012, 03:13 PM
This oil "viscosity" is always an entertaining B.S. thread as most just blow smoke and theories from a looney tunes episode!

TooManyFords
08-24-2012, 03:48 PM
Yes.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

GetMeMyStogie
08-24-2012, 05:08 PM
On the other hand, when racing the lighter oil would seem to make sense as a thinner coat would create less resistance to the moving mechanical parts. Also, the thinner oil, IMHO also is well thinner and less likely to build up between said parts. Still worth considering.

How does lighter oil equate to a thinner coat? Where you have metal on metal - such as crank journal to bearing - there is a gap. Pressurized oil fills that gap. Thinner oil won't make that gap any smaller.

Also, how would oil "build up" between parts? That doesn't make sense. Do you mean at high RPMs, under high oil pumping volume?

There should be a minor, minor difference in power, since the thinner oil is easier to pump, freeing up some of the power produced by the engine. But, as pointed out in post #1, that difference is very minor.

screamn
08-24-2012, 05:15 PM
:popcorn:.......