Brakes

[Gordy]

just felt a need to share my excitement on my new drilled and slotted rotors for the Mercury. These new rotors front and back matched with a new pair of EBC Redstuff pads should definitely help this beast through the mountain runs :D

[MMcactusflower]

very nice looking ... on my list of changes is the brake system for my DTR '04 ... still hoping for the run of megs tips so some funds are going there...but brake work might be next
looks like you did darn good with this setup...
be most interested to see what you think when the install is done

[Gordy]

Ya, I have my order in for the tips, sure hope that goes. I'll definitely post how this goes. We did the same brands, front only though, on a p71 a few months ago and it worked great. It's the reason I pulled the trigger on doing all four on the merc. I have a bad habit of speed running our mountain roads and managed to burn up the rotors and last set of pads in about 30 mins one night so I will definitely be able to give a good test of these. If all goes well its a pretty cheap upgrade.

[lifespeed]

Congrats on the new parts. They should be an improvement over stock.

That said, I did the same thing - high quality cryo-treated Command Automotive rotors and Hawk pads of stock dimensions with stock calipers. I ran them for 55K miles, repeatedly machining them to flatten them after warping. I got pretty tired of the constant maintenance, and the reality that for 30 - 40% of the 55K miles they performed subpar due to warpage.

The sad reality is these cars desperately need bigger brakes, there is just now way around it or a cheaper solution. I know it is a painfully expensive upgrade, but that is just the way it is. :(

[Gordy]

Congrats on the new parts. They should be an improvement over stock.

That said, I did the same thing - high quality cryo-treated Command Automotive rotors and Hawk pads of stock dimensions with stock calipers. I ran them for 55K miles, repeatedly machining them to flatten them after warping. I got pretty tired of the constant maintenance, and the reality that for 30 - 40% of the 55K miles they performed subpar due to warpage.

The sad reality is these cars desperately need bigger brakes, there is just now way around it or a cheaper solution. I know it is a painfully expensive upgrade, but that is just the way it is. :(

I definitely agree and if this was a daily driver it would be my option. Mine however is a garage princess who gets a lot of lovin and about 30 miles a week average of balls to the wall driving before she returns to her cozy home lol. I know these would not be the most economical option in the long run if she went 500 miles more a week but I doubt I will wear these at a rate big brakes would be worth the money to me. At $55 a rotor a can keep buying new ones for a long time before big brakes would be cheaper lol.

[HBTMD]

Congratulations on your new new rotors and brake pads. :beer:

I looked into the issue recently and received conflicting recommendations.

Half of the brake shops I contacted told me that by upgrading the rotors, brake lines (Stainless Steel) and pads I could expect a dramatic improvement in in brake performance and feel. Half disagreed and told me the only way to improve performance would be with an upgraded brake kit, such as Wilwood or Baer.

I decided to purchase a Baer front brake kit and a set of Stainless steel TCE brake lines. I will have them installed around Thanksgiving vacation in Las Vegas where my vacation home is.

Everyone I have contacted on this board and elsewhere is very happy with Wilwood and Baer.

I called Kustom Counts (Counting Cars on the History channel). They are very big fans of the Wilwood brake kits. Wilwood is a bit more expensive than Baer, however, if Danny Koker, the Count, uses them, there must be a good reason.

I got a smokin' hot deal on the Baer kit from a local race shop, so I went with that.

I talked to Dennis Reinhart recently. He feels strongly that an upgraded set of stainless steel brake lines, rotors and pads will make a dramatic difference in braking.

I hope Dennis and half the brake shops I contacted are correct. :banana:

Regards / Howard

Orig owner Black MM with 35,000 miles
Reinhart Tune & Cold air induction
SS inserts
Kenwood GPS and Stereo

[MOTOWN]

I have the BAERS with TCE SS lines you will be amazed! both kits are far superior to the oem setup!

[HBTMD]

Can't wait for Thanksgiving Vacation, so I can go to Las Vegas and have my Baer Brakes hooked up. :party:



Anyone out there know a good mechanic in Las Vegas/Henderson, Nevada?

:beer: :banana2:

[lifespeed]

Not to point out the obvious here, but Baer is twin piston floating caliper vs 6 piston fixed caliper for Wilwood. But Baer is less expensive.

Of course both kits are a vast improvement over stock.

[lifespeed]

I talked to Dennis Reinhart recently. He feels strongly that an upgraded set of stainless steel brake lines, rotors and pads will make a dramatic difference in braking.

While this is true, it is also true that stainless brake lines and new rotors/pads will do little for braking "capacity", and nothing at all for wear and warpage problems.

[MOTOWN]

Not to point out the obvious here, but Baer is twin piston floating caliper vs 6 piston fixed caliper for Wilwood. Baer is steel (or cast iron?), Wilwood is aluminum. But Baer is less expensive.

Of course both kits are a vast improvement over stock.

Baer calipers are Aluminum

[fastblackmerc]

While this is true, it is also true that stainless brake lines and new rotors/pads will do little for braking "capacity", and nothing at all for wear and warpage problems.

True...

SS lines will give you a hard pedal if the system if bled properly.

[Gordy]

Well I never felt the stock brake size had any problem stopping the car. If the ABS kicks in that means your already touching the max friction of the tires and it does not matter how big your brakes are at that point. I run extreme Summer tires on her (which I would think most that use there's as a daily driver would not use due to tread life being in the 6k mile range) and the stock brakes still clamp down enough to slide the tire. The issue comes with repeated use with the brakes fading due to heat. While a big brake kit is a great upgrade when you have ran out of stuff to do and money is just flowing, the heat dispersion improvement of a $3,000 front and back big brake kit over an upgraded factory setup in the $380 range is just not worth the money to me. ( EX. On the track stock brakes will last maybe 10 min under extreme loads before failure. Upgraded brakes will last maybe 30-45 min under extreme load based on quality before brake failure and an upgraded big brake kit would be in the hour range before failure stopping the weight of our vehicles.). Now I have driven this car and many more cars to the point of brake failure more times than I can count and even on the nights I seen a flash of Blue I did not run the car for more than 45 min full out. I might be a rare one and everyone else out there drives more than 130 on a daily bases and tries to slow to 30mph for every turn for more than an hour straight but I'm not gonna see the improvement that $2600 would make over my set up. My $2600 will be going to much better place, under the hood :-)

[justbob]

Can't wait for Thanksgiving Vacation, so I can go to Las Vegas and have my Baer Brakes hooked up. :party:



Anyone out there know a good mechanic in Las Vegas/Henderson, Nevada?

:beer: :banana2:

Why not just have the Count install them??? It would be really cool to get a cover on his show!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. Man]

Big brakes are really just going to give you more surface area for cooling. If your really running your car like you say you may want to look into running some extra cooling to the rotors. Not sure how but heat kills big brakes too

[guspech750]

I love my Wilwoods. Besides looking bad ass, stopping great, and pedal feel is awesome with the SS lines.

But now, I love my Wilwoods even more after zooming around Gingerman Raceway. With repeated hard braking from well above 100mph and hard braking before turns. Brake fade was non-existant.

I plan on doing more trac events next year so the Willwoods will get more exercise.

Wilwoods FTMFW!!


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[MOTOWN]

Big brakes are really just going to give you more surface area for cooling. If your really running your car like you say you may want to look into running some extra cooling to the rotors. Not sure how but heat kills big brakes too

I Totally disagree! BIG brakes have far more stopping/clamping force than the oems are capable of.

Drive a car with Baers, or Willwoods and you will see a major difference

[Gordy]

I Totally disagree! BIG brakes have far more stopping/clamping force than the oems are capable of.

Drive a car with Baers, or Willwoods and you will see a major difference

Do they lock the wheel up harder than the stock brakes? If your brakes will lock up the tire, having "more clamping power" will not do you any good. The tires you use have more impact on your braking capacity than anything. Yes a six piston caliper will have more clamping power but unless you are running race slicks I think your tire will give in before the stock caliper slip on one brake press.

[Mr. Man]

Do they lock the wheel up harder than the stock brakes? If your brakes will lock up the tire, having "more clamping power" will not do you any good. The tires you use have more impact on your braking capacity than anything. Yes a six piston caliper will have more clamping power but unless you are running race slicks I think your tire will give in before the stock caliper slip on one brake press.
This^^^^ plus the rotors ability to dissipate heat are the two main ingredients in stopping power.

[Gordy]

Big brakes are really just going to give you more surface area for cooling. If your really running your car like you say you may want to look into running some extra cooling to the rotors. Not sure how but heat kills big brakes too

That would definitely help and I have in the past looked at several different ideas for helping move air that direction without any major effort.

[Gordy]

This^^^^ plus the rotors ability to dissipate heat are the two main ingredients in stopping power.

Exactly, brakes are not about Brute force, they are about efficiency.

[MOTOWN]

Do they lock the wheel up harder than the stock brakes? If your brakes will lock up the tire, having "more clamping power" will not do you any good. The tires you use have more impact on your braking capacity than anything. Yes a six piston caliper will have more clamping power but unless you are running race slicks I think your tire will give in before the stock caliper slip on one brake press.

LOL! you would think wrong bud! not sure where u got that theory from but if you were correct none of the membership would
be dropping over 1K for nothing would they:confused:

Big brakes stop cars better PERIOD!!!

[Gordy]

LOL! you would think wrong bud! not sure where u got that theory from but if you were correct none of the membership would
be dropping over 1K for nothing would they:confused:

Big brakes stop cars better PERIOD!!!

Hey man, I'm not trying to insult how anyone on here spends there money and yes, bigger brakes would be more efficient at stopping the car, at no point have I said they are not.

[HBTMD]

Actually I was planning on the Wilwoods.

However, I came across a speed shop in southern California. The owner loves both Wilwood and Baer. He ordered the Baer kit for a customer last year. The customer flaked out, so he had a nice Baer kit that fits only the Mercury Marauder.

Since the MM was only produced in 2003-04 in very limited numbers he rarely gets any big spenders willing to shell out that kind of money for an 8 to 9 year old car. He gets a ton of Mustang owners, but this kit will not fit the Mustang. So I lucked out. :beer:

He offered the brand new Baer kit to me for $900. I jumped at that deal and now have it at my Las Vegas home awaiting installation during Thanksgiving vacation. :pumpkin:

[Gordy]

Actually I was planning on the Wilwoods.

However, I came across a speed shop in southern California. The owner loves both Wilwood and Baer. He ordered the Baer kit for a customer last year. The customer flaked out, so he had a nice Baer kit that fits only the Mercury Marauder.

Since the MM was only produced in 2003-04 in very limited numbers he rarely gets any big spenders willing to shell out that kind of money for an 8 to 9 year old car. He gets a ton of Mustang owners, but this kit will not fit the Mustang. So I lucked out. :beer:

He offered the brand new Baer kit to me for $900. I jumped at that deal and now have it at my Las Vegas home awaiting installation during Thanksgiving vacation. :pumpkin:

That's not a bad deal at all man, congrats on the lucky find.

[MOTOWN]

Hey man, I'm not trying to insult how anyone on here spends there money and yes, bigger brakes would be more efficient at stopping the car, at no point have I said they are not.

Your previous post makes it painfully clear you have no idea what your talking about:depress:

[Gordy]

Your previous post makes it painfully clear you have no idea what your talking about:depress:

Hey man, It appears I have managed to insult you, while just sharing my excitement for upgrading my brakes, and possibly insulted a 3k investment you made and for that I'm sorry. I know what my information is based on and it is apparent yours comes from the salesman that makes his money selling such systems. I understand physics is a complicated subject so I cannot expect you to understand what I was sharing, and I would like to believe you personally do know what I was sharing to be true and its just how you interpreted one post that made you go on attack of my knowledge of how vehicle braking works.

Again, I'm sorry for the confusion, I surrender to your evident far superior knowledge :flamer:

[HBTMD]

The bottom line is that there are several ways to improve braking on the MM.

Many people, including Dennis Reinhart (who I have great respect for), feels that upgrading the rotors brake lines and pads will work, so long as you utilize very high quality components.

Virtually everyone I have heard from agrees that the aftermarket kits from Wilwood or Baer will improve breaking performance dramatically. :bows:

Conclusion: All three approaches are reasonable. :banana:

To quote Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?" :beer::party:

[Gordy]

The bottom line is that there are several ways to improve braking on the MM.

Many people, including Dennis Reinhart (who I have great respect for), feels that upgrading the rotors brake lines and pads will work, so long as you utilize very high quality components.

Virtually everyone I have heard from agrees that the aftermarket kits from Wilwood or Baer will improve breaking performance dramatically. :bows:

Conclusion: All three approaches are reasonable. :banana:

To quote Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?" :beer::party:

Amen, I don't even know how I managed to start this.

[MOTOWN]

Hey man, It appears I have managed to insult you, while just sharing my excitement for upgrading my brakes, and possibly insulted a 3k investment you made and for that I'm sorry. I know what my information is based on and it is apparent yours comes from the salesman that makes his money selling such systems. I understand physics is a complicated subject so I cannot expect you to understand what I was sharing, and I would like to believe you personally do know what I was sharing to be true and its just how you interpreted one post that made you go on attack of my knowledge of how vehicle braking works.

Again, I'm sorry for the confusion, I surrender to your evident far superior knowledge :flamer:

Your funny bud! and dont think for a second you insulted or offended me, but when someone post total :bs: on any given topic they should be called on it, if you have no clue just say so!
Dont go trying to quote something from google!

And my Baer kit was purchased used from a member here, i was going to get the Willwood kit, but i was given a "gift" of a deal!;)

Now post away noob!:beer:

[Gordy]

Your funny bud! and dont think for a second you insulted or offended me, but when someone post total :bs: on any given topic they should be called on it, if you have no clue just say so!
Dont go trying to quote something from google!

And my Baer kit was purchased used from a member here, i was going to get the Willwood kit, but i was given a "gift" of a deal!;)

Now post away noob!:beer:

Ah, I see what this is lol, I'll be sure to switch to Yahoo so I can have as much knowledge as you.

[Mr. Man]

Thought these were interesting reads and I stand by my previous posts. If you disagree so be it.


Will A Big Brake Kit Increase The Stopping Power of a Street Car? (http://www.cquence.net/blog/big-brake-kits-do-they-work)




Jan 17, 2012 2:56:21 PM


https://www.cquence.net/media/wysiwyg/big_brake_kit.jpg
*Source v-maxx.com


A big brake kit is an oversized caliper that is used to house an oversized brake pad. The said purpose of these kits is to increase the surface area of the brake pad hitting the brake rotor for improved braking function.

Many people upgrade their brake calipers because they think bigger brakes calipers and pads mean more braking power. Most of this thinking is perpetuated by the belief that big brakes utilize more brake pad material and therefore cause more braking friction or grip. Additionally, people notice most performance autos having them installed, and want to replicate this. It is hard for these people to believe that the big brake kits used on racing vehicles won’t increase stopping power on their own street vehicles as well.

What a big brake kit will do for a braking system is decrease the operating temperature of all related braking system components. As you may already know, heat is a brake systems’ worst enemy, and can render them ineffective after a certain point. Race cars use these big brake kits to reduce the temperature of brake calipers, pads, and fluid during heavy episodes of braking. A larger mass of brake pad allows the braking system to absorb more heat overall as there is a greater amount of material to do so. As the brake pad itself is able to take on more heat energy, the braking system stays cooler longer.

A big brake kit will not increase the stopping power of a vehicle or decrease its stopping distance due to the physics involved. A larger brake pad will only spread out the clamping force of the brake caliper over a greater area. The brake pad will always retain the same amount of friction between pad and rotor regardless of any increase in brake pad surface area. This is because the coefficient of friction law does not rely on the surface area of the materials involved; only with the type of materials involved.

If you do happen to heat up a brake pad to its critical point, whether it is a stock or bigger than stock brake pad, parts of the pad will actually liquefy or melt and cause what is called glazing. This melted brake pad material will actually crystallize when reforming, and create a “glaze” on the brake pad and rotor. This glazing will severely hamper the performance of a braking system, and will cause symptoms such as vibration or braking jitter, and or cracks or fissures in the brake rotors themselves.

By utilizing more brake pad material, you can increase the heat capacity of the brake pads and raise the bar for this glazing effect to happen.
https://www.cquence.net/media/wysiwyg/glazed_brake_pads.jpg

If you do happen to glaze your brake rotors, you can attempt to resurface them with a brake lathe. Resurfacing is only possible when there is sufficient brake rotor material left to remove.

If you resurface or turn your brake rotors when they are at or below their recommended minimum thickness level set by the manufacturer, you will be making a mistake.

Brakes rotor thickness measurements are set strictly by the manufacturer because brake calipers are only able to apply adequate clamping forces at set distances effectively.



* Source www.modernperformance.com (http://www.modernperformance.com)


Big brakes may look cool, and might impress your friends, but are not necessary for stock vehicles in most cases. Big brake kits are only useful in high frequency braking applications such as racing.


This next one is a bit wordy and technical but gives excellent information on the relationship between braking and ABS and how many big brake kits do not take OEM engineering into account.

I do not know whether Baer or Wilwood take this relationship into account so before you buy you may want to look into it. :)

http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/abs-and-big-brake-kits

[MOTOWN]

Ah, I see what this is lol, I'll be sure to switch to Yahoo so I can have as much knowledge as you.

Now that was funny!:lol:

[Gordy]

Now that was funny!:lol:

I was hoping you would enjoy:depress::banana2:

[Gordy]

Thought these were interesting reads and I stand by my previous posts. If you disagree so be it.


Will A Big Brake Kit Increase The Stopping Power of a Street Car? (http://www.cquence.net/blog/big-brake-kits-do-they-work)




Jan 17, 2012 2:56:21 PM


https://www.cquence.net/media/wysiwyg/big_brake_kit.jpg
*Source v-maxx.com


A big brake kit is an oversized caliper that is used to house an oversized brake pad. The said purpose of these kits is to increase the surface area of the brake pad hitting the brake rotor for improved braking function.

Many people upgrade their brake calipers because they think bigger brakes calipers and pads mean more braking power. Most of this thinking is perpetuated by the belief that big brakes utilize more brake pad material and therefore cause more braking friction or grip. Additionally, people notice most performance autos having them installed, and want to replicate this. It is hard for these people to believe that the big brake kits used on racing vehicles won’t increase stopping power on their own street vehicles as well.

What a big brake kit will do for a braking system is decrease the operating temperature of all related braking system components. As you may already know, heat is a brake systems’ worst enemy, and can render them ineffective after a certain point. Race cars use these big brake kits to reduce the temperature of brake calipers, pads, and fluid during heavy episodes of braking. A larger mass of brake pad allows the braking system to absorb more heat overall as there is a greater amount of material to do so. As the brake pad itself is able to take on more heat energy, the braking system stays cooler longer.

A big brake kit will not increase the stopping power of a vehicle or decrease its stopping distance due to the physics involved. A larger brake pad will only spread out the clamping force of the brake caliper over a greater area. The brake pad will always retain the same amount of friction between pad and rotor regardless of any increase in brake pad surface area. This is because the coefficient of friction law does not rely on the surface area of the materials involved; only with the type of materials involved.

If you do happen to heat up a brake pad to its critical point, whether it is a stock or bigger than stock brake pad, parts of the pad will actually liquefy or melt and cause what is called glazing. This melted brake pad material will actually crystallize when reforming, and create a “glaze” on the brake pad and rotor. This glazing will severely hamper the performance of a braking system, and will cause symptoms such as vibration or braking jitter, and or cracks or fissures in the brake rotors themselves.

By utilizing more brake pad material, you can increase the heat capacity of the brake pads and raise the bar for this glazing effect to happen.
https://www.cquence.net/media/wysiwyg/glazed_brake_pads.jpg

If you do happen to glaze your brake rotors, you can attempt to resurface them with a brake lathe. Resurfacing is only possible when there is sufficient brake rotor material left to remove.

If you resurface or turn your brake rotors when they are at or below their recommended minimum thickness level set by the manufacturer, you will be making a mistake.

Brakes rotor thickness measurements are set strictly by the manufacturer because brake calipers are only able to apply adequate clamping forces at set distances effectively.



* Source www.modernperformance.com (http://www.modernperformance.com)


Big brakes may look cool, and might impress your friends, but are not necessary for stock vehicles in most cases. Big brake kits are only useful in high frequency braking applications such as racing.


This next one is a bit wordy and technical but gives excellent information on the relationship between braking and ABS and how many big brake kits do not take OEM engineering into account.

I do not know whether Baer or Wilwood take this relationship into account so before you buy you may want to look into it. :)

http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/abs-and-big-brake-kits


Great, now this is what I'm gonna be accused of reading from my google searches lol. +1 Mr. man

[justbob]

Post 14.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lifespeed]

. . .the stock brakes still clamp down enough to slide the tire.

This is a common fallacy. Nearly all stock brake configurations are capable of locking the tire. Yet improvements in stopping distance and wear are still found with improvments in brake performance.

The fact that you can lock the wheels does not mean your brakes cannot be improved upon. :rolleyes:

A major problem Marauder owners have with the brakes, besides poor performance, is warping and poor wear characteristics. Not to mention poor stopping for a fast car.

I, for one, am tired of constant brake maintenance and warping, and crap performance except for 2,000 miles right after I put on a new set of stock pads and rotors.

You can go ahead and rationalize all you want about not wanting to blow the $$ on brakes and rather spend it on the engine. Fine, that's your decision. Just don't try to tell me the stock brakes are fine. They are not! They are completely inadequate, and warp and wear badly.

[fastblackmerc]

Found this in an old thread:

Given the time passing and my not posting on a regular basis...and with new members coming in perhaps it's time we re visit big brakes. A few have asked about the kits based on technical data I've posted of late on the fundamentals of the BBK. All that and a lot of HP just means it's time to think about slowing that ride!

Basic brakes;
With a market of a few kits out there for you MM what makes TCE kits better or different than the others?

TCE kits are all multi piston calipers produced by one of the industy leaders; Wilwood. These calipers are then paired with custom built aluminum hats and fully directional cast top grade iron rotors. Pad choice for many of these calipers exceed that of some of the others and the combined kit weight is less than what it replaces. TCE is the only (correct me if wrong) FIXED mount caliper kit for your vehicle. Fixed mount means no floating caliper mount or guide pins. Rotors are clamped by both sides via multi piston calipers. This leads to both improved clamp and release characteristics as well as a firmer more responsive pedal.

Rotors on both the TCE front and TCE rear kits are directional cast for improved air flow. They can be had in a vast assortment of rotor finishes; slotted, drilled, both and zinc plated. All ala carte. Meaning each is produced to YOUR needs.

Pads are mostly Wilwood/Raybestos Polymatrix pads available in a number of compounds from mild to wild. Both the front and rear kits also include basic mounting hardware and SS braided hoses. You only supply the brake fluid.

TCE and a proper biased brake kit: often when building kits the first thing to do is select the largest parts one can fit and declare them 'the best'. This is simply a quick way to sell the all American bigger is better theme. Proper brake bias or balance is achieved by way of enhancing one or both ends of the car in a manner that makes both ends of the vehicle work to aide your stopping. And stopping alone is not the sole benefit of a BBK. Proper thermal management is crucial. Stock brakes work fine the first or second stop. The real test is doing this over and over with the same results.

To achieve the best vehicle braking it also helps to have all four wheels doing your braking. In this manner all TCE kits take this into account and make the rear end help brake as well as the front. A car doing all its braking up front is just leaving too much on the table.

Now for some hard math: Let's assume all brake pads are equal for some number crunching. We'll call the pad cf .40 for the math. The stock MM comes with a bias of about 70/30 brake effort.This means that the fronts do about 70% of the work of course. TCE front kits alter this a bit to 67/33 and do so with improved pedal feel and quicker response time. Add a TCE rear kit to this and the bias shifts to favor the rear a bit more at to a workable 64/36 distribution. This means that your car brakes not only firmer but also does so in a much flatter plane. Another kit boosts this % to a full 76/24 thus nearly negating the entire effectiveness of your rear brakes! From past experience the ideal static bias of your car will be about 65/35 given the wheel base and weight. Some very minor pad tuning of the TCE kit puts this right at 65/35. Yes there is some planning put into this! When you brake hard you want the % to shift forward with weight transfer, not all at one time. This is done by way of pad tuning. As the mass moves forward the pad increases it's bite and matches that of the required torque. This is dynamic brake bias. The key is to work the rear as long as you can rather than 'dumping' all the work on the fronts.

For the past seven or so years TCE has used this same basic formula and parts on the Impala SS. Granted it's not a Ford but you know what; it's dynamics are nearly identical. TCE has produced kits for the SS for street, strip, show and LOTS of open track use (ok maybe they are a bit of a nutty crowd) and to date we have produced nearly 140 front kits and about 45 rears. Those kind of numbers in this industry only come from success, not trial and error at the parts bin.

What fits and what don't. Now you know how it works but what will fit and what won't. All 13.1" TCE kits are forced to be produced with only a 1.10" wide rotor. The fit of a 1.25" rotor is hindered by the flat form of your wheel. Don't go hiding just yet though. Before somone says "I told you so" remember that disc width has nothing to do with brake torque. A solid half inch disc of 13" will stop your car just as well. The limit of termal capacity of a 1.10 rotor vs 1.25 is going to only show itself on the extended use of an open road course or similar use. Your pads will give out long before your rotors....Still however, some want more and TCE is here to offer it. We also do a 14" rotor kit which is in 1.25 width form! (and honestly we can do a very, very stout, race worthy 13" kit as well) This requires a wheel change. There's only so much room to put such large parts behind such un brake friendly wheels!

[Gordy]

This is a common fallacy. Nearly all stock brake configurations are capable of locking the tire. Yet improvements in stopping distance and wear are still found with improvments in brake performance.

The fact that you can lock the wheels does not mean your brakes cannot be improved upon. :rolleyes:

You can go ahead and rationalize all you want about not wanting to blow the $$ on brakes and rather spend it on the engine. Fine, that's your decision. Just don't try to tell me the stock brakes are fine. They are not! They are completely inadequate, and warp and wear badly.

You choose one sentence and used it out of context, that was merely part of an explanation that just because "big brakes having more clamping power is why they are better" is not why they are an improvement over stock. I was just explaining the stock system does have the capability of providing the max amount of force that can be used to effectly stop the vehicle one time, and that the issue does come when you try the second or third (the same thing you are saying.) I believe the brakes need to be improved upon, hints why I have spent the money to improve mine.

My only point when questioned on my decision to only improve upon the stock configuration, instead of investing in a new setup, was that for my uses and requirements of the vehicle the improvement I would see would not justify the investment spent going to that setup. Again, it would not justify it for me.

I feel a few people have misinterpreted my defending of my decision and what I decided was the best for my vehicle as an attack of what they have invested into their own vehicle, and at no point have I said this.

So one more time for everyone that has read parts of this thread wrong.

1. Stock brakes suck

2. Upgraded brake rotors, pads, and brake lines are an improvement over stock.

3. Larger braking systems are an improvement over both listed above.

I went with option 2 because that was the best option for me and I'm so sorry I decided to share a picture of the Rotors.

[lifespeed]

So one more time for everyone that has read parts of this thread wrong.

1. Stock brakes suck

2. Upgraded brake rotors, pads, and brake lines are an improvement over stock.

3. Larger braking systems are an improvement over both listed above.

I went with option 2 because that was the best option for me and I'm so sorry I decided to share a picture of the Rotors.

Maybe you got so much grief because every Marauder owner has cursed their stock brakes at some point in their driving and maintenance experiences.

Here is the harsh reality: 1) stock brakes are very similar to 2) "upgraded" rotors and pads of the same dimensions.

You can't just use a different pad material with the same pad and rotor size, drill some holes in the rotors, add SS brake lines, and get a real improvement.

[HBTMD]

No apology is necessary.

A frank, factual and open discussion is the best way for the wise to share their knowledge and for the rest of us to learn from it.

I, personally, have learned a great deal from it. :party:

I hope we will have many more frank, factual and open discussions on this board. :beer:

Howard

[Gordy]

Maybe you got so much grief because every Marauder owner has cursed their stock brakes at some point in their driving and maintenance experiences.

Here is the harsh reality: 1) stock brakes are very similar to 2) "upgraded" rotors and pads of the same dimensions.

You can't just use a different pad material with the same pad and rotor size, drill some holes in the rotors, add SS brake lines, and get a real improvement.

I understand that the heat dispersion capacity of the materials I used in replacing worn parts on my vehicle do not have the same capacity or longevity of an larger system. I for one do not have a problem at all spending money where it is needed, but a big brake system is not what I needed. I drive the car maybe once a week and once a month take it down the mountain spiritedly so the standard wear and tear time frames do not apply to my situation so I would have not seen the value in the new system. Now my needs for the merc could change one day and the equation for money spent maining my system vs a new system could change with it,but for now I just wanted to improve my heat dispersing capabilities over stock, and that's what I did.

[lifespeed]

. . . but for now I just wanted to improve my heat dispersing capabilities over stock, and that's what I did.

With stock-sized rotors, your heat dissipation capacity, by definition, remains stock.

You don't need to justify your decision to us. But you may have noticed we aren't going to accept a claim of dramatic improvement, either. Remember, even new Ford brakes are an improvement over worn, warped Ford brakes.

[babbage]

This is a common fallacy. Nearly all stock brake configurations are capable of locking the tire. Yet improvements in stopping distance and wear are still found with improvments in brake performance.

The fact that you can lock the wheels does not mean your brakes cannot be improved upon. :rolleyes:

A major problem Marauder owners have with the brakes, besides poor performance, is warping and poor wear characteristics. Not to mention poor stopping for a fast car.

I, for one, am tired of constant brake maintenance and warping, and crap performance except for 2,000 miles right after I put on a new set of stock pads and rotors.

You can go ahead and rationalize all you want about not wanting to blow the $$ on brakes and rather spend it on the engine. Fine, that's your decision. Just don't try to tell me the stock brakes are fine. They are not! They are completely inadequate, and warp and wear badly.

Stock size DBA 4000 rotors and Hawk pads from Ken at KNS is what I got (vendor here at MM.net) , so far they are amazing. Feels at least twice as good as OEM. There are paint marks on them to tell you what temp you exceeded. This coming from a guy who has also had command automotive rotors. $600 ish for the kit.

[Curless]

The whole key to BIG brakes is LARGER DIAMETER rotors, along with LARGER pads and LARGER calipers. If you dispute the fact that all things being larger are going to stop the car sooner you do not understand braking systems at all. Let's not forget, our cars have ABS on them, when you have overcome the tires ability to adhere to the road your ABS will engage... at that point in time, if its happening on a regular basis you need to instal adjustable proportioning valves so you can lessen the pressure to your calipers. I've been building drag cars for 20 + years and we see this once in a while when upgrading front rotors and pads along with installing skinny tires on the front.

[Gordy]

With stock-sized rotors, your heat dissipation capacity, by definition, remains stock.

You don't need to justify your decision to us. But you may have noticed we aren't going to accept a claim of dramatic improvement, either. Remember, even new Ford brakes are an improvement over worn, warped Ford brakes.


Your right, it does not matter what any two materials are, you combine them and the results of the friction (the heat created) will be exactly the same. Oh, and "Only larger can be better" and by slotting and drilling a rotor you only make something look pretty and help gases escape, you do not (even in a three dimensional world) creat a larger surface area of material within the same dimensions as if it was just a flat surface. Science and Math were just created to scare people away form religion.

And when I first posted my excitement I did not think I would need to justify my decision, until my competence for making such decision was questioned and at no time have a proclaimed a dramatic improvement and nothing else would do better, but just that it was an improvement over stock. If you want to say it is not an improvement over stock in anyway, I promise I will not call you incompetent as I have been treated with my decisions.

[Curless]

Your right, it does not matter what any two materials are, you combine them and the results of the friction (the heat created) will be exactly the same. Oh, and "Only larger can be better" and by slotting and drilling a rotor you only make something look pretty and help gases escape, you do not (even in a three dimensional world) creat a larger surface area of material within the same dimensions as if it was just a flat surface. Science and Math were just created to scare people away form religion.

And when I first posted my excitement I did not think I would need to justify my decision, until my competence for making such decision was questioned and at no time have a proclaimed a dramatic improvement and nothing else would do better, but just that it was an improvement over stock. If you want to say it is not an improvement over stock in anyway, I promise I will not call you incompetent as I have been treated with my decisions.


Your right, with the added "venting" of gasses you will improve over the stock application. I Completely and totally agree, anyone who has driven a Fox body Stang knows what under braked from the factory is and that stock dimensioned rotors and calipers with "venting" is a HUGE help!

As for your decision, its exactly that, your decision. Your wallet depicts what you can and can't do to your car. I too am thinking about just getting "better than stock" equipment for my Marauder.:beer:

[Gordy]

Your right, with the added "venting" of gasses you will improve over the stock application. I Completely and totally agree, anyone who has driven a Fox body Stang knows what under braked from the factory is and that stock dimensioned rotors and calipers with "venting" is a HUGE help!

As for your decision, its exactly that, your decision. Your wallet depicts what you can and can't do to your car. I too am thinking about just getting "better than stock" equipment for my Marauder.:beer:

Lol, it's so funny you should say that, the fox body in the garage next to the Merc is where the majority of my vehicle modification budget goes. This whole thread man has been a big disagreement of people who, without what they are saying being lost in the translation of wording and text, are completely agreeing and believe the same thing.

[Mr. Man]

Lol, it's so funny you should say that, the fox body in the garage next to the Merc is where the majority of my vehicle modification budget goes. This whole thread man has been a big disagreement of people who, without what they are saying being lost in the translation of wording and text, are completely agreeing and believe the same thing.
Some people just don't want to believe in Physics. If they want to believe they are stopping better with the brakes they bought so be it, no amount of arguing will change their minds.

Big brake kits will definitely prolong your ability to stop if your are a race car driver or are into autocross but in every day driving unless you are a manic you will see little benefit other than they look cool.

[Curless]

Some people just don't want to believe in Physics. If they want to believe they are stopping better with the brakes they bought so be it, no amount of arguing will change their minds.

Big brake kits will definitely prolong your ability to stop if your are a race car driver or are into autocross but in every day driving unless you are a manic you will see little benefit other than they look cool.


Yes.....BUT THEY LOOK SO DAMN COOL! I was next to Guspech at MV10 and I was drooling over his big rotors....:bows:

[Curless]

Lol, it's so funny you should say that, the fox body in the garage next to the Merc is where the majority of my vehicle modification budget goes. This whole thread man has been a big disagreement of people who, without what they are saying being lost in the translation of wording and text, are completely agreeing and believe the same thing.


What ya building for a Fox???? My employee has an 81 Capri and I have a 91 Notch. His is N/A with heads, cam intake...mine is paxton powered!

[lifespeed]

. . . Big brake kits will definitely prolong your ability to stop if your are a race car driver or are into autocross but in every day driving unless you are a manic you will see little benefit other than they look cool.

In everyday driving you will see your rotors warp regularly. Obviously this has an impact on stopping power.

[Curless]

In everyday driving you will see your rotors warp regularly. Obviously this has an impact on stopping power.

You should talk to a brake rep from NAPA...his exact words..."rotors DO NOT warp"....

I did not say that I agreed with him but he did say this and NAPA will tell you the same thing....

[Gordy]

What ya building for a Fox???? My employee has an 81 Capri and I have a 91 Notch. His is N/A with heads, cam intake...mine is paxton powered!

Oh, very nice. Fox bodys are my first true love with Ford. I have a 1992 GT. the engine for it is a complete build 347 Stroker with SKAT forged internals, Custom Grind Camshaft, Trick Flow heads with a little extra and port matched to a dual carb intake sporting two Edelbrock 500cfm carbs. and all I'm missing is a damn Tranamission lol.

[Curless]

Oh, very nice. Fox bodys are my first true love with Ford? I have a 1992 GT. the engine for it is a complete build 347 Stroker with SKAT forged internals, Custom Grind Camshaft, Trick Flow heads with a little extra and port matched to a dual carb intake sporting two Edelbrock 500cfm carbs. and all I'm missing is a damn Tranamission lol.

We are building an 89 for a customer. 347, trick flo heads, huge roller, 10psi blower, brand new tremec 6 speed...all set up to road race! Hoping for 600 to the ground!

[Mr. Man]

Yes.....BUT THEY LOOK SO DAMN COOL! I was next to Guspech at MV10 and I was drooling over his big rotors....:bows:That knock on your door tonight will be Joe:rolleyes:


In everyday driving you will see your rotors warp regularly. Obviously this has an impact on stopping power.
I've been driving for 30 years and never warped a rotor. You must abuse your brakes. In your case you may benefit from larger rotors for the heat dissipation aspect.:)

[guspech750]

That knock on your door tonight will be Joe:rolleyes:



LOL. Not tonight. I've been sick the last 3 days. Perhaps Thursday night. :rolleyes:


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[Gordy]

We are building an 89 for a customer. 347, trick flo heads, huge roller, 10psi blower, brand new tremec 6 speed...all set up to road race! Hoping for 600 to the ground!

You should hit your goal without a problem in the world lol. Oh how nice a six speed sounds

[lifespeed]

I've been driving for 30 years and never warped a rotor. You must abuse your brakes. In your case you may benefit from larger rotors for the heat dissipation aspect.:)

LOL, that's a good one ! Never warped a brake rotor . . .
Maybe they were only slightly warped, and you just didn't notice? :D

Perhaps you might enquire amongst your Marauder brethren to see if other fellow Marauder Owners have also experienced your Immaculate Arrest of Acceleration.

[lifespeed]

Your right, it does not matter what any two materials are, you combine them and the results of the friction (the heat created) will be exactly the same. Oh, and "Only larger can be better" and by slotting and drilling a rotor you only make something look pretty and help gases escape, you do not (even in a three dimensional world) creat a larger surface area of material within the same dimensions as if it was just a flat surface. Science and Math were just created to scare people away form religion.

Factory rotors are already vented in the center, and is by far the most effective approach. Slotting and drilling are intended to allow an escape path for gasses boiling off the pads under racing or other extreme conditions. They have a purpose, but it is not applicable under most circumstances.

So the laws of physics do dictate that if you don't change much, much doesn't change. Drilling and slotting can provide a very modest improvement if you haven't changed rotor diameter. If you are interested in doing the math you might calculate how much your slots and holes have increased the cooling surface area (don't forget to include the center vents) . . . after all, math doesn't lie.

[lifespeed]

You must abuse your brakes.

An interesting statement. How would you define abuse?

[Mr. Man]

An interesting statement. How would you define abuse?
If your warping rotors as much as you claim I say it's pretty self explanatory.

[lifespeed]

If your warping rotors as much as you claim I say it's pretty self explanatory.

I guess it would be, if the other vehicles I own and drive warped their brakes also. But they don't. That leaves my original hypothesis - Marauder brakes are inadequate, especially for a car of it's performance level.

I guess you really just don't want to admit the stock brakes are junk. I can understand the whole calling-your-baby-ugly thing. But at some point, you are just deluding yourself.

So, you keep your stockers, I'll change to Wilwoods, and we'll compare notes on stopping power, longevity, pedal feel, etc. Or at least I'll compare, you'll be lacking the second point of reference.

[MOTOWN]

I guess it would be, if the other vehicles I own and drive warped their brakes also. But they don't. That leaves my original hypothesis - Marauder brakes are inadequate, especially for a car of it's performance level.

I guess you really just don't want to admit the stock brakes are junk. I can understand the whole calling-your-baby-ugly thing. But at some point, you are just deluding yourself.

So, you keep your stockers, I'll change to Wilwoods, and we'll compare notes on stopping power, longevity, pedal feel, etc. Or at least I'll compare, you'll be lacking the second point of reference.

:popcorn::popcorn::hide:

[Gordy]

Factory rotors are already vented in the center, and is by far the most effective approach. Slotting and drilling are intended to allow an escape path for gasses boiling off the pads under racing or other extreme conditions. They have a purpose, but it is not applicable under most circumstances.

So the laws of physics do dictate that if you don't change much, much doesn't change. Drilling and slotting can provide a very modest improvement if you haven't changed rotor diameter. If you are interested in doing the math you might calculate how much your slots and holes have increased the cooling surface area (don't forget to include the center vents) . . . after all, math doesn't lie.

.........:toast:.........

[CWright]

I'm not gonna offer any scientific/physics answer here but I will just give you my personal experiance with before and after. I went from stock to Wilwoods on all 4 corners.



ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON!

[boatmangc]

Here is my feelings so far,
I bought the car with the Trilogy already on and ran in at the strip several months later. I felt the brakes didn't match the power at all.
During the next year I upgraded rotors, pads and installed the TCE lines.
I used NAPA Reactive One rotors with Hawk pads, did a full fluid flush, broke them in properly and took it to the strip again, yes it was an improvement over the stockers but dramatic? No.
Last week I installed TCE's 13" Wilwood fronts, broke them properly and felt a big improvement over my last upgrade.
This weekend I will be running the car at SSHS, I will report after the event.

[Gordy]

I'm not gonna offer any scientific/physics answer here but I will just give you my personal experiance with before and after. I went from stock to Wilwoods on all 4 corners.



ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON!

I have no doubt they were a great upgrade to that beautiful car of yours man.

[CWright]

I have no doubt they were a great upgrade to that beautiful car of yours man.


Thanks bro! They look great but with the power I'm making I take all precations. I really didn't think I'd feel a noticable difference when I bought them but they do stop this thing on a dime. :burnout::burnout:

[guspech750]

I love my Wilwoods. Besides looking bad ass, stopping great, and pedal feel is awesome with the SS lines.

But now, I love my Wilwoods even more after zooming around Gingerman Raceway. With repeated hard braking from well above 100mph and hard braking before turns. Brake fade was non-existant.

I plan on doing more trac events next year so the Willwoods will get more exercise.

Wilwoods FTMFW!!


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

I quote myself because I can.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[MOTOWN]

I'm not gonna offer any scientific/physics answer here but I will just give you my personal experiance with before and after. I went from stock to Wilwoods on all 4 corners.



ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON!

THANK YOU!!!! this is my point EXACTLY:banana2::agree:

[Gordy]

Thanks bro! They look great but with the power I'm making I take all precations. I really didn't think I'd feel a noticable difference when I bought them but they do stop this thing on a dime. :burnout::burnout:

Sweet man, I'm still gonna have to get you to take me for a ride in that beast one day

[CWright]

THANK YOU!!!! this is my point EXACTLY:banana2::agree:


:beer:






Sweet man, I'm still gonna have to get you to take me for a ride in that beast one day


I'll be at the Shootout this weekend. Are you gonna be able to make it?

[justbob]

Funny all the talk this has caused... My eBay brakes were purchased probably 50,000 miles ago, while they don't offer much difference over stock for day to day city driving per say, the benefits at the track were a HUGE improvement! Still riding on the same "house" brand pads and the rotors are true as could be. Not bad for all four shipped for $199.00 :)

Wilwoods would be very nice, but I am all about moving forward (quickly) through life, don't have time to be stoppin.

Now back to your regularly sceduled entertainment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gordy]

I'll be at the Shootout this weekend. Are you gonna be able to make it?

I'm planning to be at the track Friday night, we got a couple cars we are gonna try and get up there for one last test and tune for the season, but I'm not sure about Saturday yet. I'm really hoping to make it work but I probably won't know till the end of the week.

[CWright]

I'm planning to be at the track Friday night, we got a couple cars we are gonna try and get up there for one last test and tune for the season, but I'm not sure about Saturday yet. I'm really hoping to make it work but I probably won't know till the end of the week.


I was hoping to get there Friday night but looks like I'll be heading out Saturday morning dark and early! :D Cutting out about 4 am trailering her over. Hopefully you can come hang out with us! Keep us posted.:beer:

[Gordy]

Funny all the talk this has caused... My eBay brakes were purchased probably 50,000 miles ago, while they don't offer much difference over stock for day to day city driving per say, the benefits at the track were a HUGE improvement! Still riding on the same "house" brand pads and the rotors are true as could be. Not bad for all four shipped for $199.00 :)

Wilwoods would be very nice, but I am all about moving forward (quickly) through life, don't have time to be stoppin.

Now back to your regularly sceduled entertainment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Glad to hear it is working well for you man.

[Gordy]

I was hoping to get there Friday night but looks like I'll be heading out Saturday morning dark and early! :D Cutting out about 4 am trailering her over. Hopefully you can come hang out with us! Keep us posted.:beer:

Sounds exhausting man lol. I'll be trying to work it out and I'll keep you posted. I definitely want to make it, been trying to make it work for one of these monthly events you guys come out for some time now and it never seems to fail that something happens.

[CWright]

Sounds exhausting man lol. I'll be trying to work it out and I'll keep you posted. I definitely want to make it, been trying to make it work for one of these monthly events you guys come out for some time now and it never seems to fail that something happens.


I hear ya!! Between my wife working on her Doctorate, my daughter's dance schedule, and son's ongoing baseball schedule, I haven't been able to make a Marauder Saturday breakfast since the spring. I hope to make it in December but we'll see. November is out for me already. I'll be coming back from Montana that weekend.

[Gordy]

I hear ya!! Between my wife working on her Doctorate, my daughter's dance schedule, and son's ongoing baseball schedule, I haven't been able to make a Marauder Saturday breakfast since the spring. I hope to make it in December but we'll see. November is out for me already. I'll be coming back from Montana that weekend.

Ya, and I already know December is a no for me, that's actually my wedding day and I know what will happen if I disappeared for a couple hours that morning ha.

[CWright]

Ya, and I already know December is a no for me, that's actually my wedding day and I know what will happen if I disappeared for a couple hours that morning ha.


Well Congrats Boss!!!!!!!!!!!! :beer:

[Gordy]

Well Congrats Boss!!!!!!!!!!!! :beer:

Thanks alot man. When she was willing to get back in the car with me instead of driving herself for our second date I knew she was the one for me lol

[CWright]

Thanks alot man. When she was willing to get back in the car with me instead of driving herself for our second date I knew she was the one for me lol


:lol: My wife only rides in it at Marauderville's. It's been 2 years! :alone:

[Gordy]

:lol: My wife only rides in it at Marauderville's. It's been 2 years! :alone:

Sorry to hear that man, do you do something similar to this one time

http://youtu.be/05iIsRWOUR4


I don't know how mine puts up with my driving habits.

[CWright]

Sorry to hear that man, do you do something similar to this one time

http://youtu.be/05iIsRWOUR4


I don't know how mine puts up with my driving habits.


:lol: :D.....

[Hadamustang1]

So Im still kinds confused.. But I do know I don't want to spend $3000 for brakes for just cruising around.. But if I can get a improvement over the stock set up for like the same money.. Them I'm in.. four rotors drilled and slotted four loaded calipers with better than stock pads and SS brake lines would make me happy. for less that like $600 bucks..

Gordy gave me the info for summitt.. But I would like to get it from one source.. TCE.. maybe?

Could somebody throw up a parts list or a link.. ?.. I suck at google..LOL

Thanks

[Hadamustang1]

If the calipers were pretty .. that would be nice as well..

[lifespeed]

So Im still kinds confused.. But I do know I don't want to spend $3000 for brakes for just cruising around..

You can be sure nobody here was excited about shelling out $3K+ to get brakes that perform on par with the car's capabilities. We did it because that was what was required to get the desired results.