Rear end may be dry

[Blk04MM]

Lately I've noticed a posible roaring noise and a clunk or two from the rear. So I checked it and noticed build up on the bottom of the rear diff cover.

Car runs fine so I want to handle this before I have real issues. Right now I cant buy a rear diff cover so what are my options? I see we dont have drain/fill plugs on our cover so is it possible to drill/tap one? or is there a better way to go?

[Spectragod]

There is a fill hole on the front driver side of the differential. I would take the cover off to inspect the rear end internals, just to make sure that there are no chinks loose in there.

[Blk04MM]

There is a fill hole on the front driver side of the differential. I would take the cover off to inspect the rear end internals, just to make sure that there are no chinks loose in there.

ok so just remove it and see if anything is laying around?

and any special way to refill her up when im done?

[Spectragod]

ok so just remove it and see if anything is laying around?

and any special way to refill her up when im done?

If you heard "clunking", I would, just to make sure all the teeth are on the gears and there is nothing that is loose inside the differential.

To refill, make sure the air suspension is turned off in the trunk, that the car is level, remove the fill plug, it is threaded in, you will need additive for the limited slip, I usually add that in with my first bottle of oil, fill till the oil is at the bottom of the fill hole, I would recommend a pump, as there is not a lot of room to work in that area. Screw the plug back into the differential. Turn the air suspension back on when the car is on the ground.

[Blk04MM]

If you heard "clunking", I would, just to make sure all the teeth are on the gears and there is nothing that is loose inside the differential.

To refill, make sure the air suspension is turned off in the trunk, that the car is level, remove the fill plug, it is threaded in, you will need additive for the limited slip, I usually add that in with my first bottle of oil, fill till the oil is at the bottom of the fill hole, I would recommend a pump, as there is not a lot of room to work in that area. Screw the plug back into the differential. Turn the air suspension back on when the car is on the ground.


oh ok i dont have a pump or a torque wrench to tq the studs back to spec. is the service pricey at a shop? i've never had this issue before ever in any vehicle

[jflave]

Your best bet may be to just take it to a shop & let them check it out for you. :dunno: Thats what i would do.

[fastblackmerc]

oh ok i dont have a pump or a torque wrench to tq the studs back to spec. is the service pricey at a shop? i've never had this issue before ever in any vehicle

You don't have to torque anything. The cover bolts you just tighten down. You don't even need a new gasket... the OEM one is reusable.

[vegasmarauder]

No gasket on the diff cover. It is sealed with a bead of silcone gasket maker. Try to let it dry for 6-24 hours before filling it and make sure the sealing sufaces are clean, clean, clean of oil residue or it will leakl again..

Easy to pull it to inspect..

[Pat]

Just had my differential serviced in late September at my local car service center. $80.00 for labor plus cost of fluid, varies by brand. Some fluid brands require a friction modifier additive, some don't. Takes three quarts.

FWIW - the roaring noise may be worn axel/bearings.

[fastblackmerc]

No gasket on the diff cover. It is sealed with a bead of silcone gasket maker. Try to let it dry for 6-24 hours before filling it and make sure the sealing sufaces are clean, clean, clean of oil residue or it will leakl again..

Easy to pull it to inspect..

Correct..... it's been so long since my diff was apart.

[Marauderjack]

Just pull the fill plug......if stuff has gone bad inside it will look like a silver bird wing with all the debris on the magnet.......don't even ask how I know this!!:argue:

If it's clean or just has a little graphite lookin' stuff on it you should be OK!!:beer:

Give it a whirl.....easy and tells the story....unless there is NO FLUID in it!!:eek:

[SC Cheesehead]

Just had my differential serviced in late September at my local car service center. $80.00 for labor plus cost of fluid, varies by brand. Some fluid brands require a friction modifier additive, some don't. Takes three quarts.

FWIW - the roaring noise may be worn axel/bearings.

That's what I'm thinking too, Pat; ask me how Iknow...

[RF Overlord]

That's what I'm thinking too, Pat; ask me how Iknow...Ask ME how I know, too...

@ the OP: be sure you remove the fill plug before you remove the diff cover, otherwise you may have no way to fill it back up.

[RoyLPita]

I had to service the rear end on my MM bacause the cover was leaking. Judging by the sounds of your car, you may have to overhaul.

Keep us posted.

[lifespeed]

fwiw - the roaring noise may be worn axel/bearings.

^
^
^
^
^

+1

[Vortech347]

Time to pull the cover.

I picked up a howl in the rear end and it was one of my carrier bearings. Easy swap though. Only took a few hours.

[Blk04MM]

I haven't pulled it apart yet or driven the car much at all. But I went to a shop about 5 mins up the road and he said he's worked on plenty and it may not be my rear end but possibly the noise of my bald azz tires. Looking at the driveway the rear end leaked maybe a few drops within a weeks time not even enough to puddle. The car sits for days I don't drive that much. But anyway I caught them at closing time and was told to bring it back and they will check it

[SC Cheesehead]

I haven't pulled it apart yet or driven the car much at all. But I went to a shop about 5 mins up the road and he said he's worked on plenty and it may not be my rear end but possibly the noise of my bald azz tires. Looking at the driveway the rear end leaked maybe a few drops within a weeks time not even enough to puddle. The car sits for days I don't drive that much. But anyway I caught them at closing time and was told to bring it back and they will check it

Shouldn't leak at all. At minumum, you've got a bad axle seal, and I'd bet a good chunk of change you've got a bad bearing and axle, get it fixed before it gets any worse.

[lifespeed]

I haven't pulled it apart yet or driven the car much at all. But I went to a shop about 5 mins up the road and he said he's worked on plenty and it may not be my rear end but possibly the noise of my bald azz tires. Looking at the driveway the rear end leaked maybe a few drops within a weeks time not even enough to puddle. The car sits for days I don't drive that much. But anyway I caught them at closing time and was told to bring it back and they will check it

If you have any kind of mileage on the car, there is a good possibility you have axle wear (and by axle I mean any of the components that make up your axle assembly, although the shafts themselves are very common wear items). They do wear out, no point in running it until catastrophic failure.

Do yourself a favor and take it to a shop that specializes in rear ends. They'll be more skilled and knowledgeable, faster, and likely have Ford 8.8" parts in stock.

[Blk04MM]

Shouldn't leak at all. At minumum, you've got a bad axle seal, and I'd bet a good chunk of change you've got a bad bearing and axle, get it fixed before it gets any worse.

Any way to check?

[Blk04MM]

If you have any kind of mileage on the car, there is a good possibility you have axle wear (and by axle I mean any of the components that make up your axle assembly, although the shafts themselves are very common wear items). They do wear out, no point in running it until catastrophic failure.

Do yourself a favor and take it to a shop that specializes in rear ends. They'll be more skilled and knowledgeable, faster, and likely have Ford 8.8" parts in stock.

About 145k
Car isn't driven much. Sits more then it drives. I'll be getting a gear swap pretty soon so when that's done I'm sure they will see what else is needed

[SC Cheesehead]

Any way to check?

If you've got a seal leak and you're getting a howling noise out of the rear end, I'd say better than an 80% probability you've got issues.

The longer you go without addressing, the worse the damagel; ask me how I know...

[GreekGod]

An axle shaft seal leak collects on the inside of the wheel, and becomes obvious as it only gets worse.

My axle bearing failed and was completely noiseless. The leaking seal was the only indication of failure. The only way to properly clean out the axle housing is to completely disassemble and power wash it.

===============

[Blk04MM]

An axle shaft seal leak collects on the inside of the wheel, and becomes obvious as it only gets worse.

My axle bearing failed and was completely noiseless. The leaking seal was the only indication of failure. The only way to properly clean out the axle housing is to completely disassemble and power wash it.

===============

Nope the inside of my wheels are clean.

It's not a roaring noise. After I seem the rear diff in gunk I started to hear the noise. It's not noticeable at all. I put the windows up turn the radio off and "hear it" could be I'm paranoid maybe. I know there shouldn't be a Leak at all it will be fixed.

[Krytin]

The pinon bearing will "moan" if it's bad and if the pinion seal is leaking (located under the middle/rear of the car) the bearing is most likely the cause of the leak. Mine went @ approx. 115k miles.

[Chi Stallion]

My drivers side axle shaft was to blame when my bearings started going bad and eventually the wheel was all full of differential fluid. The drivers side seal blew out and luckily i was able to notice it right away. It was all over my drivers side rotor and brake. Took it over by Hans at Deans Performance and they did one hell of a job pulling everything out and cleaning it back up and reinstalling the 31 spline axles, 410gears, m4210c gear install kit, 31 Cobra Carrier & TA Girdle and Stud Kit and Ford Racing Friction Modifier. I was so happy with the guys at Deans Performance I highly recommend that place.

[Blk04MM]

Update.

Took the car to a rear end shop. He pulled it in the bay and soon as he took the plug out fluid stared to flow. Rear end is full. He told me the same thing as the last shop. Could be my bald tires against the pavement. He checked everything else said I'm in good shape. So next up is tires.

[SC Cheesehead]

Update.

Took the car to a rear end shop. He pulled it in the bay and soon as he took the plug out fluid stared to flow. Rear end is full. He told me the same thing as the last shop. Could be my bald tires against the pavement. He checked everything else said I'm in good shape. So next up is tires.

Has anyone checked the axles yet? Can't tell the condition of them by checking diff fluid level.

[lifespeed]

Update.

Took the car to a rear end shop. He pulled it in the bay and soon as he took the plug out fluid stared to flow. Rear end is full. He told me the same thing as the last shop. Could be my bald tires against the pavement. He checked everything else said I'm in good shape. So next up is tires.

You have to disassemble your axle to do a proper check. If you took it to a rear end shop they know this. Are you sure their diagnosis consisted only of verifying oil is in there? There is a 90% chance at the miles you have there is significant wear and replacement of parts is called for.

At 140K+ miles it would be highly unusual for the axle shafts, bearings and seals to not be worn enough to merit replacement. Did the shop pull your axles and limited-slip carrier to check?

[SC Cheesehead]

You have to disassemble your axle to do a proper check. If you took it to a rear end shop they know this. Are you sure their diagnosis consisted only of verifying oil is in there? There is a 90% chance at the miles you have there is significant wear and replacement of parts is called for.

At 140K+ miles it would be highly unusual for the axle shafts, bearings and seals to not be worn enough to merit replacement. Did the shop pull your axles and limited-slip carrier to check?


^^^^ Spot on.

[Blk04MM]

Has anyone checked the axles yet? Can't tell the condition of them by checking diff fluid level.

Diff cover came off. He said he checked the rear and it was fine and it was just the leaking gasket. I didn't ask if that included the axles

[Blk04MM]

You have to disassemble your axle to do a proper check. If you took it to a rear end shop they know this. Are you sure their diagnosis consisted only of verifying oil is in there? There is a 90% chance at the miles you have there is significant wear and replacement of parts is called for.

At 140K+ miles it would be highly unusual for the axle shafts, bearings and seals to not be worn enough to merit replacement. Did the shop pull your axles and limited-slip carrier to check?

If you're talking about a complete disassemble (pulling the wheels etc) then no that wasn't done. Diff cover came off he said he didnt find any issues inside when he brung the cover and gasket to me. Gasket was bad. Said the rear was good to go now. I didn't ask about axles

[SC Cheesehead]

If you're talking about a complete disassemble (pulling the wheels etc) then no that wasn't done. Diff cover came off he said he didnt find any issues inside when he brung the cover and gasket to me. Gasket was bad. Said the rear was good to go now. I didn't ask about axles

Our collective diagnoses could be wrong, but as lifespeed pointed out, at your car's mileage, the probability of the axles being worn is pretty high. The howling you're hearing is a common symptom for that, too, so while it may be the tires, I'd guess that's a long shot.

One quick way to check would be to just swap front and rear tires (even if they're staggered sizes; won't hurt anything for a short period) and take a test drive. If the howling continues, you've got axle/bearing issues.

[lifespeed]

If you're talking about a complete disassemble (pulling the wheels etc) then no that wasn't done. Diff cover came off he said he didnt find any issues inside when he brung the cover and gasket to me. Gasket was bad. Said the rear was good to go now. I didn't ask about axles

What can you check with only the cover off? Think about it for a moment. None of us are thrilled at the idea of spending $$ to repair worn items, but that is the reality of car ownership.

Have your rearend shop do a proper teardown inspection of your axle, then rebuild it. You'll be glad you did. Or wait for it to leave you on the side of the road with extra damage.

Edit: the lack of a real inspection by the rear end shop is actually not a good sign. They should know better. Or did you tell them to do nothing beyond pull the cover?

[Blk04MM]

Our collective diagnoses could be wrong, but as lifespeed pointed out, at your car's mileage, the probability of the axles being worn is pretty high. The howling you're hearing is a common symptom for that, too, so while it may be the tires, I'd guess that's a long shot.

One quick way to check would be to just swap front and rear tires (even if they're staggered sizes; won't hurt anything for a short period) and take a test drive. If the howling continues, you've got axle/bearing issues.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I was just saying what was done. And I corrected myself stating it isn't a howling noise. It was more of a rolling sound very faint roaring noise that I only started to be paranoid about after I seen the diff cover. I appreciate the diagnostics from everyone. I will have the proper stuff done to keep it in tact

[lifespeed]

I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I was just saying what was done. And I corrected myself stating it isn't a howling noise. It was more of a rolling sound very faint roaring noise that I only started to be paranoid about after I seen the diff cover. I appreciate the diagnostics from everyone. I will have the proper stuff done to keep it in tact

That is the sound. It will go away when you rebuild your axle.

Good luck.

[SC Cheesehead]

I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I was just saying what was done. And I corrected myself stating it isn't a howling noise. It was more of a rolling sound very faint roaring noise that I only started to be paranoid about after I seen the diff cover. I appreciate the diagnostics from everyone. I will have the proper stuff done to keep it in tact

Actually, that's closer to the sound I had in my car, so yes, get the axles checked as soon as you can.

I know it sounds like we're all http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/images/smilies/Beating_A_Dead_Horse.gifbut, the longer you wait, the more expensive it's gonna get. Cleanout of the axle housings and diff carrier alone can take several hours if there are a lot of shavings in there, and the longer you drive on a bad axle, the more shavings you're going to get; ask me how I know...:(

[Blk04MM]

What can you check with only the cover off? Think about it for a moment. None of us are thrilled at the idea of spending $$ to repair worn items, but that is the reality of car ownership.

Have your rearend shop do a proper teardown inspection of your axle, then rebuild it. You'll be glad you did. Or wait for it to leave you on the side of the road with extra damage.

Edit: the lack of a real inspection by the rear end shop is actually not a good sign. They should know better. Or did you tell them to do nothing beyond pull the cover?

Hell if I knew what can be checked by pulling the cover then I would've done it myself. That's the purpose of mechanic shops and posting here to gather collective information to help someone right? I took the car to the shop as I should have done and how everyone stated.

I took the car there and told them the noise I think I hear and don't know if its coming from the gears due to the leak and was low on fluid or what not. i didnt tell them to ONLY do anything. They pulled it in and did what they did. Midway through i was shown the diff cover & gasket they went back and a bit later the car was brought back up. I was told rear end was fine and it needed no fluid but they put new fluid in and sealed it up. I didn't ask if they checked axles and seals. Maybe I should've but I didn't. The car is back in the driveway where it sits as usual. I plan on on going 430 so then I will have the complete job done if its needed. Thanks for the info

[Blk04MM]

Actually, that's closer to the sound I had in my car, so yes, get the axles checked as soon as you can.

I know it sounds like we're all http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/images/smilies/Beating_A_Dead_Horse.gifbut, the longer you wait, the more expensive it's gonna get. Cleanout of the axle housings and diff carrier alone can take several hours if there are a lot of shavings in there, and the longer you drive on a bad axle, the more shavings you're going to get; ask me how I know...:(

I'll definitely get it looked at when I do the gear swap. I have everything for the swap so far if I don't need anything else done. I just don't drive it much as I thought I would. So it sits but I will get it looked at when I take her in for the gear job. I know everyone is like "WTF get it done" for every problem they read here about marauders due to the love they have but it'll get done.

Did you go back OEM?

[Blk04MM]

That is the sound. It will go away when you rebuild your axle.

Good luck.

Thank you ....any in particular that's recommended by the community here?

[SC Cheesehead]

I'll definitely get it looked at when I do the gear swap. I have everything for the swap so far if I don't need anything else done. I just don't drive it much as I thought I would. So it sits but I will get it looked at when I take her in for the gear job. I know everyone is like "WTF get it done" for every problem they read here about marauders due to the love they have but it'll get done.

Did you go back OEM?

Yeah, I did, but I can upgrade to 31 spline axles relatively easily so stayed with OEM 28 spline for now. Had the clutch packs rebuilt at the same time so I'm good to go for awhile.

Definitely, if you're going to do a rear gear swap, then that would be the time to do the axle maintenance.

[Marauderjack]

If there is no metal debris in the housing chances are he's OK but it's not hard to check especially with the cover already off!!

Mine made a real noticeable "Wump...Wump...Wump" noise that varied with speed!!

Good Luck!!

[Blk04MM]

Yeah, I did, but I can upgrade to 31 spline axles relatively easily so stayed with OEM 28 spline for now. Had the clutch packs rebuilt at the same time so I'm good to go for awhile.

Definitely, if you're going to do a rear gear swap, then that would be the time to do the axle maintenance.

Exactly why I'm waiting to get it done then thanks for the info

[Blk04MM]

If there is no metal debris in the housing chances are he's OK but it's not hard to check especially with the cover already off!!

Mine made a real noticeable "Wump...Wump...Wump" noise that varied with speed!!

Good Luck!!

Let the other guy tell it can't nothing be checked with he cover off.
But ok thanks for the info

[lifespeed]

Let the other guy tell it can't nothing be checked with he cover off.
But ok thanks for the info

Cover off is the first step. Then pull the cross shaft, remove the C-clips, rear brakes, remove the axles. Check axles and bearings.

Remove the carrier bearing caps, pull the carrier out. Check the carrier bearings.

Remove the pinion nut, pull the pinion gear out. Check the pinion bearing.

So, now that you have it all apart, you replace all the seals, bearings, crush sleeve, pinion nut, and axles. Extra credit for 31 spline axles and a new Ford limited slip to match.

[Blk04MM]

Cover off is the first step. Then pull the cross shaft, remove the C-clips, rear brakes, remove the axles. Check axles and bearings.

Remove the carrier bearing caps, pull the carrier out. Check the carrier bearings.

Remove the pinion nut, pull the pinion gear out. Check the pinion bearing.

So, now that you have it all apart, you replace all the seals, bearings, crush sleeve, pinion nut, and axles. Extra credit for 31 spline axles and a new Ford limited slip to match.

Extra credit on the beak down. When time has come for the gear swap I'll replace all. Thanks again

[justbob]

Just jack up the back and see if there is play up and down with the tire. Mine and every one I have done had play, mine being the worst. Funnier yet, mine was the only one with zero leaks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GreekGod]

What can you check with only the cover off? Think about it for a moment. ...

Have your rearend shop do a proper teardown inspection of your axle, then rebuild it. You'll be glad you did. Or wait for it to leave you on the side of the road with extra damage.

Edit: the lack of a real inspection by the rear end shop is actually not a good sign. They should know better. Or did you tell them to do nothing beyond pull the cover?

You are out of line! gear lube contamination is easy to see, and an excellent primary clue for axle shaft (or bearing) wear. Cover removal is the first step to inspection, especially if shaft seals are not showing leakage.

It is a real inspection, and is a good sign. Finding a good mechanic and trusting him is important if you can't do the work yourself.

In a rebuild, never use a crush sleeve. Use a solid spacer. They are supplied as a shim kit. It makes future pinion seal or u-joint flange replacement much simpler, and the extra cost is insignificant.

As for the differential, forget about girly-man Kevlar clutch plates, or any clutch plates for that matter! Go with an Eaton Truetrac, and 31 spline axle shafts. No future worn plates, and no hassle with the pre-load spring removal if you ever need to remove the axle shafts.

Truetrac: http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Automotive/AutomotiveAftermarket/Differentials/PCT_221471

[lifespeed]

You are out of line! gear lube contamination is easy to see, and an excellent primary clue for axle shaft (or bearing) wear. Cover removal is the first step to inspection, especially if shaft seals are not showing leakage.

It is a real inspection, and is a good sign. Finding a good mechanic and trusting him is important if you can't do the work yourself.

In a rebuild, never use a crush sleeve. Use a solid spacer. They are supplied as a shim kit. It makes future pinion seal or u-joint flange replacement much simpler, and the extra cost is insignificant.

As for the differential, forget about girly-man Kevlar clutch plates, or any clutch plates for that matter! Go with an Eaton Truetrac, and 31 spline axle shafts. No future worn plates, and no hassle with the pre-load spring removal if you ever need to remove the axle shafts.

Sometimes you can see metal, sometimes you can't. It's presence is a wear indicator, but absence of (visible) metal is not necessarily an all-clear. To some extent, a small amount of metal is actually normal in a gearbox or axle. It has some value as an indicator, but is not a definitive diagnosis. In the presence of other symptoms the OP has (noise, mileage) I say disassembly for inspection is warranted. This axle design's wear characteristics and life span are pretty well understood.

The solid spacer is reasonable enough.

As far as clutch type vs Torsen differential (Eaton True-trac) that is something of a personal preference. Both designs have their features.

The Torsen's obvious advantage is the lack of clutches with the associated wear and maintenance. Rather than describing the well-known Torsen characteristics I'll just post a link (http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm). To summarize, they behave as an open diff unless slippage activates their torque bias.

A clutch type applies torque to both wheels and tries to make them rotate at the same speed. This has some advantages in that it applies a stabilizing force to a car, especially while under acceleration. A clutch type differential has a characteristic feel and behavior from the drivers seat.

Given the age and mileage of most Marauders many people have had an opportunity to decide which style to install due to axle regular maintenance. You might think there would be more people that went the Torsen route, as they are comparable in price to a new Ford 31 spline limited slip and don't need the clutches replaced when they wear out.

But despite the added maintenance many still choose the clutch type, myself included. I like the way they put the power to the ground and stabilize the car under acceleration. Is it better than a Torsen? Not necessarily. It depends on what you do with the car, and how you want it to drive. Personal preference. And in another 5 - 7 years I'll have to change my clutches again . . .

[Got_1]

Easiest thing for you to do is run your hand along the inside edge of your rear tires. If they feel "feathered" then thats the cause of your noise. Tire noise and bearing noise are very similar. If two separate mechanics suspect tires over rear diff then I'd say that's probably it.

[lifespeed]

Easiest thing for you to do is run your hand along the inside edge of your rear tires. If they feel "feathered" then thats the cause of your noise. Tire noise and bearing noise are very similar. If two separate mechanics suspect tires over rear diff then I'd say that's probably it.

While what you said almost makes sense, solid axles do not "feather" the tires.

[Got_1]

Oh really? So I must have been imagining the several hundred feathered tires I've come across on a rear wheel drive vehicle at the ford dealership I work at.
Thanks for the correction.

[imorb1994]

While what you said almost makes sense, solid axles do not "feather" the tires.

:bs: My tires are feathered currently on my MM. And have seen hundreds of other cars, light duty trucks, medium and heavy duty trucks, and buses with feathered tires.
Curious as to where you heard that:dunno:

[Got_1]

:bs: My tires are feathered currently on my MM. And have seen hundreds of other cars, light duty trucks, medium and heavy duty trucks, and buses with feathered tires.
Curious as to where you heard that:dunno:

Where's the "like" button

[lifespeed]

Oh really? So I must have been imagining the several hundred feathered tires I've come across on a rear wheel drive vehicle at the ford dealership I work at.
Thanks for the correction.

I have never seen them feathered on the rear of my own solid axle vehicles, or other people's vehicles I know. In fact, one of the primary benefits of tire rotation is to un-feather the inevitable imperfect wear on the front tires (our Marauders excepted of course). A solid axle, unless it is bent, has 0 toe and 0 camber so it is darn near impossible for it to screw up the tire wear.

However, since you have personally observed hundreds or thousands of feathered tires on the rear I'll bow to your vast experience.

[Got_1]

I have never seen them feathered on the rear of my own solid axle vehicles, or other people's vehicles I know. In fact, one of the primary benefits of tire rotation is to un-feather the inevitable imperfect wear on the front tires (our Marauders excepted of course). A solid axle, unless it is bent, has 0 toe and 0 camber so it is darn near impossible for it to screw up the tire wear.

However, since you have personally observed hundreds or thousands of feathered tires on the rear I'll bow to your vast experience.

You'd be surprised how far off of 0 degrees solid axle cars come right from factory.
I'm not asking you to bow but I have seen enough to no that it definitely happens. :beer:

[lifespeed]

We're all a product of our experience.