Twisted stub shaft

[tbone]

Ok, so I twisted the stub shaft. I believe I need a hardened 300m stub shaft and drum. But I've been told conflicting information on what to do. Could you guys with experience on this chime in on what you have done to solve this issue please?

[DOOM]

I had a hardened shaft pin put in mine when I had my transmission built up!

[tbone]

I had a hardened shaft pin put in mine when I had my transmission built up!

But I was told that you then need a hardened direct drum. Then all that is good but you are transferring the load to the next component, and on and on.......
I was also told by Alan at Dirty Dog Perf that the shaft and drum should be matched and that the assembly takes 2 months to get.

How many miles since you put the hardened shaft in?

[DOOM]

I had my drum and clutches beefed up and also added extra clutch packs.

[tbone]

I had my drum and clutches beefed up and also added extra clutch packs.

What did you do to beef up your drum?

[DOOM]

A.T.S in Va. did my tranny. They also did Shermanator's

[sailsmen]

I have had a hardened stub shaft from Art Carr for 120K, 450-540RWHP and over 150 passes with no issues.
They have been gone for a while. What ever happened to BC Automotive?

[justbob]

No warranty?


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[tbone]

No warranty?


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I'm not sure how twisting it is the rebuilders fault?

He did use this universal Amalie trans fluid even though I specifically requested Mercon V synthetic. The clutches in the drum were fried as well, but he said it was from the twisted stub shaft.

http://www.amcarinc.com/en/products/amalie-lubricants/product-categories/amalie-transmission-fluids/amalie-universal-synthetic-automatic-transmission-fluid

[tbone]

I have had a hardened stub shaft from Art Carr for 120K, 450-540RWHP and over 150 passes with no issues.
They have been gone for a while. What ever happened to BC Automotive?

So you did not have to get a hardened direct drum or anything else?

Tell me more about your exact setup please.

[RacerX]

This is the part I'm ordering for mine: http://www.dirtydogperformance.com/transmission-rebuild-kits-and-parts/aod/aode/4r70w/4r70w/aode-intermediate-stub-shaft/prod_8.html

This discusses the necessary mods for AOD/4R70Ws: http://www.clickclickracing.com/tech%20mods1.pdf

you will need a 300M hardened stub shaft, 4 Alto he (high energy reds or better) intermediate clutches, 4 reverse clutches, 5 to 6 Alto he forward clutches, 6, 7 or 8 Alto hp direct clutches, spriral ring instead of the snap ring (sonnax part #76554RK), updated accumulators if needed, can go with a lager diameter OD servo (2.7") since 4R's are sleeved, high carbon or Kevlar OD band and tailshaft lube mod.

https://www.wittrans.com/Schematic.a...5W/4R70E/4R75E (https://www.wittrans.com/Schematic.aspx?Transmission=AO DE/4R70W/4R75W/4R70E/4R75E)

I have TONS of info if you need any help and I've already completely disassembled a race AOD(wide) and will be installing all the better parts in my trans . :beer:

[nh muscle]

I've gotten 21 years since I first put the hardened shaft in and it wasn't the stub shaft!!! Lol

[Shaijack]

Do hardened shafts soften with age?

[RacerX]

Do hardened shafts soften with age?
Ken's does!!! :D Muahahahaha!

Seriously though, no. What happens is we add horsepower beyond what the transmission is built for. The 70 in 4R70W is with tq multiplication. Actual safe tq is MUCH lower than the "700" most say is what the 70 means. Check out clickclickracing.

[justbob]

I'm not sure how twisting it is the rebuilders fault?

He did use this universal Amalie trans fluid even though I specifically requested Mercon V synthetic. The clutches in the drum were fried as well, but he said it was from the twisted stub shaft.

http://www.amcarinc.com/en/products/amalie-lubricants/product-categories/amalie-transmission-fluids/amalie-universal-synthetic-automatic-transmission-fluid

Just curious? Seems odd that would happen N/A, especially immediately following a rebuild? My trans is bone stock still and you know how I roll. 😊


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[RacerX]

Jeezum. I didn't realize he's still NA. Still has a good amount of torque for NA. If the Oregon performance kit has the better quality clutches, etc. I can see it happening. He has a 3k stall= more tq multiplication. JMod=fast solenoid shifting. 4.10's, stiff driveshaft. Less slippage in the trans and some sticky tires could mean some hard hitting shifts. I Have seen some broken stock stub shafts over on TCCOA from NA cars. Older 4Rs though.

[tbone]

Jeezum. I didn't realize he's still NA. Still has a good amount of torque for NA. If the Oregon performance kit has the better quality clutches, etc. I can see it happening. He has a 3k stall= more tq multiplication. JMod=fast solenoid shifting. 4.10's, stiff driveshaft. Less slippage in the trans and some sticky tires could mean some hard hitting shifts. I Have seen some broken stock stub shafts over on TCCOA from NA cars. Older 4Rs though.


Exactly. And Metco control arms as well. She really hooks up with 200 pounds of rwtq at just 2400 rpm. And yes, the clutches are the Raybestos Stage 1 red ones from Oregon Performance.

Alan at DirtyDog thinks the problem lies more in 2 to 4 and 4 to to shifts, forgetting to turn off overdive, etc., which I never do.

He has a direct drum that he heat treats mated to a standard stub shaft that he says is the answer. 300m heat treated not necessary. I think I will put the accumulator springs back in, and do a mod in the silver fox writeup to keep the fluid flowing in the drum if the shaft moves.

What do you think? I've come to find out my transmission guy only knows stock. Performance? Not so much.

[RacerX]

Yeah, I found that out too. I spoke to a couple of trans experts on rebuilding mine. As soon as I mentioned performance, eyes glazed over. So I'm doing it myself. I didn't know you shifted like that! I get in my car and its a habit. Ignition, on, Od, off. the ONLY time its on is on the hwy. That's your answer! Dirty dog and silverfox are awesome btw.

[tbone]

No, I don't shift like that. Those were no-nos Dirty Dog mentioned, but I don't do that at all. He just said those kind of shifts can twist em.

I just wrote Dirty Dog a dissertation on my exact setup, and will buy his parts and hopefully git r done.

[Shaijack]

Thanks RacerX, my wife was just wondering. LOL

[Joe Walsh]

I read this thread's title and thought we were talking about nude midget wrestling!

[babbage]

Alan at Mad Dog thinks the problem lies more in 2 to 4 and 4 to to shifts, forgetting to turn off overdive, etc., which I never do.


I agree, 4 to 2 is very bad for a transmission. Next time have tuner remove that "feature" I'd bet that's exactly how it went. It takes the trans time to do this, meanwhile your engine is spooling up and BANG.

[DOOM]

I read this thread's title and thought we were talking about nude midget wrestling!

Yeah baby!!!!

:popcorn::popcorn:

[tbone]

I was going to name the thread "I Twisted My Stub Shaft" but didn't want to make it TOO easy for you sickos!

[tbone]

Alan, the main man at DirtyDog Performance spent a long time on the phone with me today explaining everything and setting me up with all the right goodies to make this transmission rock! If you guys need anything for your trans, give this guy your business!

http://www.dirtydogperformance.com/transmission-rebuild-kits-and-parts/aod/aode/4r70w/cat_23.html

[Marauderjack]

Assuming a "Hardened Stub Shaft" survives what is the next component to break??:cool:

I view the stock shaft as a "fuse" designed to protect the rest of the stuff in the transmission!! :dunno:

[RacerX]

Assuming a "Hardened Stub Shaft" survives what is the next component to break??:cool:

I view the stock shaft as a "fuse" designed to protect the rest of the stuff in the transmission!! :dunno:
Direct drum, now you're talking a huge amount of torque to do it though. The 03/04 4Rs have better parts all around compared to any previous versions.

[tbone]

Assuming a "Hardened Stub Shaft" survives what is the next component to break??:cool:

I view the stock shaft as a "fuse" designed to protect the rest of the stuff in the transmission!! :dunno:


Exactly. I'm getting a custom made hardened direct drum with seven bands, a standard oem stub shaft, a spiral retainer ring, a high performance overdrive band, a Sonnax overdrive servo pin, a Sonnax valve kit with elevated pressure with spring, and a new purple 1-2 accumulator spring. Plus a couple assembly tricks from Silverfox. Should make it bullettproof.

[Marauderjack]

Exactly. I'm getting a custom made hardened direct drum with seven bands, a standard oem stub shaft, a spiral retainer ring, a high performance overdrive band, a Sonnax overdrive servo pin, a Sonnax valve kit with elevated pressure with spring, and a new purple 1-2 accumulator spring. Plus a couple assembly tricks from Silverfox. Should make it bullettproof.

That is what we did on my rebuild......OEM stub shaft at the direction of a well known builder!! :bows:

I do not do "burnout" or drag race but drive it pretty hard and the build has survived.....85K miles and still working great!!:beer:

[tbone]

That is what we did on my rebuild......OEM stub shaft at the direction of a well known builder!! :bows:



Yep. He said it can cause more harm than good. ie. Blown housing.

[RacerX]

If you build it to be truly bulletproof, you DO need to install a 300M stub shaft. If built right with extra clutches,
hardened parts in the right place, spiral snap ring, etc. This is the only thing that will break:

Your OUTPUT SHAFT! 1,400+ hp! Trans was built to handle 1200!!!
All the other parts are mint and will be used in my new build this spring.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/579/medium/IMG_0884a.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:;)

[tbone]

I don't have an unlimited budget, so what I listed will have to do.

[justbob]

Your looks make up for your budget Tom. PIMP that shat Homie!


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[MENINBLK]

When Fred Brown rebuilt my 4R75W he highly recommended replacing both shafts with hardened shafts.
The output shaft came with the rebuild, the input shaft was an extra purchase.
The only other hard part he replaced was the Sun Gear Case Gear.
This part is a wearable part that after 125k miles was beat to hell and needed replacement.

[tbone]

My guy says the OEM hardened shaft combined with his hardened direct drum never fails in the many sets he has put on the street. He could easily make more money selling me a $160 shaft vs. a $30 one, so I think he must be pretty confident and honest in his recommendations.

[RacerX]

I'm not trying to be a dink, but, you showed us a tweaked stub shaft. Unless your current direct drum show damage, how is a strengthened direct drum going to prevent another bent stub shaft???

[tbone]

The strenghtened drum holds it apparently. Plus the proper 1-2 spring is vital to taking some of the pressure off. I tried to buy the shaft and he insisted it was not a good idea in my situation. The OEM shaft is supposed to be good to 500 hp.

Oh, and yes the drum splines were tweaked as well.

This gentleman seems to know his stuff, has a lot of experience with the 4R's and is quick to answer the phone if anyone wants advice on their transmission.

[tbone]

Got the car back today. 3 1/2 weeks thanks to the idiot at Dirty Dog who I no longer recommend. Shifts like a dream. Sooo good to get her back!

[RoyLPita]

The stub shaft on my MM's transmission twisted then broke apart.