new shocks finally arrived

[lifespeed]

It has been two months since ordering the Penske 7500DA double-adjustable shocks for the Marauder. I hope it is worth the wait, not to mention the cost.

Thursday she goes in for new front and rear suspension as well as the front Wilwoods to match the rear. This is the most $$ I have dumped into the car since buying her in 2007.

A well-deserved upgrade for all involved. I'll report back on the results. Hopefully it goes off without a hitch.

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_shocks/IMG_8724.jpg

[MOTOWN]

Oh snapp! I was just thinking about this project! They look sweet, can these be purchased again?

That rear shock looks to be a coil over as well (threaded body) yes?

[lifespeed]

I'm sure you would have no problem buying these from Anze, now that they have made the first set. They also fabricated the custom front upper mount, turning the Marauder into a standard coilover car up front. No hunting for the right spring rate, ride height, etc from Eaton, Eibach or somebody else.

It appears the 7500DA is only available with the threaded body, although this is not of any use in the rear. I'm sure the shock mount could not support the weight of the car long-term.

[MOTOWN]

Got a link?

[lifespeed]

http://www.anzesuspension.com/

[MOTOWN]

http://www.anzesuspension.com/

Thanks bud! :beer:

[Mr. Man]

I will be waiting to hear about your results and impressions of this new set-up. I am intrigued and am hoping you have a positive experience. :)

[J-MAN]

Who was your contact at Anze to get that setup built? Pricing? Looks sweet, hope it just falls together. Would certainly like to see a review after the installation. Pics of installation?

[burt ragio]

The set up looks sweet. You may need a tower brace.Thanks for taking the initiative for the Marauder community. I am sure they wil be everthing you expect & more. What alienment specs will you use ?

[lifespeed]

The car is still in the shop. While installing the 14" Wilwood front kit it was discovered that one rotor (right) sits slightly closer to the spindle than the other. Interestingly, the new hub did not slide smoothly into the bore on the right side like it did on the left. The mechanic believes the steering knuckle is tweaked and is currently trying to get a new one from Ford.

Anybody ever have this happen? I suppose it would not be the most obvious problem.

All the other details look good. The Addco tubular front swaybar and Penske coilovers fit well, as do the Metco rear arms and new Ford parts up front. Unfortunately, Addco sent me the wrong rear sway bar - should have been #2271 for the tubular rear. I'll have to swap that out in a week or so.

[lifespeed]

I have asked for -0.5 camber, 6.0 caster and 0 toe. Past experience tells me that these cars need some negative camber up front to improve cornering. -0.5 is enough to help them stick to the road without excessive tire wear.

[MOTOWN]

Can't wait to see some pictures of your mods!

[lifespeed]

Can't wait to see some pictures of your mods!

Yeah, I realized after I went over to the shop Friday evening to check on the brake/spindle headache I should have snapped a picture while it was up on the rack. But there were more pressing problems on my mind. Knowing Ford, the soonest I'll be able to get a new spindle is tomorrow.

It looks kind of weird with those 2.5" springs in place of the huge stockers.

[burt ragio]

I would think your in good hands but my 1st thoughts are:
Were there evident signs of spindle race or bearing wear ?
Were any measurements taken ?
Was the rotor part # confirmed ?
How many inches of compression travel do the front coilovers have at your disired ride height ?
This is such a sweet set up I can't wait to hear your long awaited results. I want a ride.

[lifespeed]

"Spindle" is perhaps the wrong term. These cars have bolt-on sealed bearing hubs.

[lifespeed]

OK, got the car back today and started on the rear shock adjustments. I think the fronts are good, but the rear valving is so far off it upsets the car and it is hard to look past the problem. Right now I have the rears set at minimum compression, maximum rebound damping and they still need to go further in each direction. I think these shocks will be great (pretty sure the fronts already are), but the rears are going back to get re-valved. I wonder if Anze suspension has valved shocks for airsprings before? I'm pretty sure they are valved differently than for coil springs.

The cornering is great with the new front struts, suspension, and Addco 1-3/8" tubular sway bar. I still need to get the correct matching rear bar, they sent me the wrong part :confused:.

The 14"/13" Wilwood brake combo is amazing. I barely got them bedded, but the last stop I made after cooking them nearly put me through the windshield. I think the shop I used was flumoxed by the fitment challenges of the aftermarket brakes, so I will have to go back in there and cut off the dust shields to give the rotors adequate clearance. They shimmed the hub out slightly to create clearance, which I don't like. Changes the scrub radius. I have a 1/16" shim between the rotor and wheel right now to assure the rims don't strike the calipers. Looks like it might barely be possible to run without the spacer, or perhaps remove a bit of material from the wheels. Not a big deal either way.

I put in a new master cylinder also. The old one still worked, but pedal travel was erratic, sometimes going further to the floor than it should have.

Edit: forgot to mention the Metco arms. So far they seem nice, but it is hard to see their true beauty with the pogo-stick rear end. They definitely transfer more road harshness and vibration to the car, but it is tolerable. They also transfer engine and transmission torque nicely. The tail wag changing lanes at high speed is gone, tracking is true.

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_shocks/IMG_8730.jpg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_shocks/IMG_8731.jpg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_shocks/IMG_8735.jpg

[MOTOWN]

That looks amazing! I would love to see how the car handles now

[lifespeed]

That looks amazing! I would love to see how the car handles now

I can tell it handles a lot better, especially in the front. But I can't hang it out much in high-speed corners to see the improvement, the rear isn't correct yet.

[burt ragio]

Set the rear shocks to the lowest settting compression & rebound for starters. Drive down a bumpy road at slow to moderate speed for best feed back. Then set to the highest setting to feel varience. Then start again at lowest settings & work your way up to desired setting.

[lifespeed]

Set the rear shocks to the lowest settting compression & rebound for starters. Drive down a bumpy road at slow to moderate speed for best feed back. Then set to the highest setting to feel varience. Then start again at lowest settings & work your way up to desired setting.

Already done that, the range of adjustment in the rear is not sufficient to meet what the car needs. I guess that is why they are rebuildable and adjustable (internally). They're going back.

Edit: after further review, it looks like I didn't hit every possible combination. Although a re-valve may still be needed, the right adjustment may exist on the edges of the ranges.

[lifespeed]

There is some knowledge and race car driver intuition to this shock adjustment exercise. Interaction between air spring rising rate, and compression vs rebound provide plenty of opportunity to not get it right.

After talking with Anze for some advice (and a sanity-check dyno plot of the factory shock) I now have stiff compression and soft rebound. It is pretty darn close to correct. I think if I soften the compression more and tighten the rebound slightly it will be darn near perfect. I think I will end up adjusted pretty far into the "soft" region of these shocks, so it may still make sense to get them re-valved so the oil is mostly going through the piston instead of the adjuster.

The compression adjuster faces the axle, so I have to unbolt the shock to make the adjustment. Rebound is easy, in the top of the shaft.

After the last shock adjustment the Marauder is finally exhibiting that tight, road-holding feel I would expect. A couple more adjustments, maybe a re-valve, the correct Addco rear bar and this thing will drive like a 4,000 lb missile on rails.

The first graph shows the compression reduced from the original graph (second)

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_shocks/rear_rebound.JPG

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_shocks/rear_compression.JPG

[J-MAN]

Looks like you're closing in on the right settings. Really looks like a nice setup!

Could you post differently so those of us with smaller screens don't have to scroll to read each line? Don't want to miss a word!

[RF Overlord]

I never knew there WAS such a thing as a "shock absorber dyno".

This thread is very interesting to me...I would like to have some idea of the costs involved before I get my hopes up, though....

[lifespeed]

Just took the car for another suspension tuning run. It really drives like a hot rod now, and rides pretty smooth over fast square-edged or ripply bumps on the freeway. I raised the rear suspension (and spring rate!) to about 3/4" above the tire tread, vs level with the tire, and softened the compression to medium. Rebound is still soft. I am within a gnat's eyelash of the correct rear adjustment. I've said it before: don't get carried away with lowering the rear just because it is easy with airbags. You soften the spring rate by doing so.

Pricing for the complete setup including springs and custom valving is on par with a set of Wilwoods. I know at that price it isn't for everyone. But it is one upgrade you feel the entire time you drive the car.

[J-MAN]

Interesting approach on your modifications. Big brakes f&r and a class A suspension first. What's next? Your goals?

[burt ragio]

Where you able to turn the rear shock body 180 degree so you can access the adjuster knob without removing the shock for adjustment ?

[lifespeed]

Interesting approach on your modifications. Big brakes f&r and a class A suspension first. What's next? Your goals?

I thought at 100K miles the suspension was in much worse shape than the engine, and I have always hated the brakes. Of course I would like a supercharger on a forged engine, but that will have to wait a while. The stock engine and trans run great with a tune and have lots of life left in them.

[lifespeed]

Where you able to turn the rear shock body 180 degree so you can access the adjuster knob without removing the shock for adjustment ?

No, the Schrader valve to add nitrogen is on the opposite side of the compression screw and has to face away from the axle for clearance. I have to take the wheel off and unbolt the bottom mount to make a compression adjustment. Once it is correct I don't expect to fiddle with it. Edit: I swapped the Schrader valve for a rubber plug that can punctured with a needle to add nitrogen. No unbolting required to adjust compression!!

The front should be easier, but are much closer to correct as-is, so I have not adjusted them yet.

[J-MAN]

Did you get the rear shocks dialed in? Any pics of the rear shock install? Does the shaft or body of the shock point up?

[lifespeed]

Did you get the rear shocks dialed in? Any pics of the rear shock install? Does the shaft or body of the shock point up?

The shocks are shaft up just like stock. Yes, I got the rear shocks dialed in as much as possible. However, I have come to the conclusion that the Arnott Towncar/limo bags are a significantly higher rate, not to mention shorter (which requires more air, hence more spring rate). Also the Arnott bags hit the bump stops with much less compression of the rear suspension than the factory bags.

Because of this huge discrepancy in spring rate it is not possible for the rear shocks, as currently valved, to be completely correct for my setup. Therefore, I have ordered new Ford air springs and expect them to arrive before the weekend. I still have the original air bags, but just can't see wasting the effort to re-install them as they are 10 years/100K miles old.

I will post an update once they are in. I expect the improvement to be dramatic.

[J-MAN]

Thanks, interested in the rear shocks to gain added clearance for widened wheels.

[lifespeed]

I got rid of the the Arnott towncar/limo air springs and went with OEM Marauder. The bouncy rear is much improved. Have to start over with adjusting the rears, and still may have to send them back for a re-valve.

Those rear Arnott bags had to go, however. They were soooooo bad.

[J-MAN]

Thanks. Keep us advised as to your progress on those rears and your final settings. Really a neat set-up!

[lifespeed]

Rear suspension is darn near perfect with the OEM air springs and rebound damping dialed to minimum. Of course, dialed to a minimum means the shocks have to go back for a final internal re-adjust as it is incorrect to soften the rebound so much with the bleeder screw. Just waiting for the Addco rear sway bar to finally arrive for a test drive with the final setup before sending the rears back.

It is a night-and-day difference, however. I have every reason to believe the re-valve will set the rear up exactly correct.

[J-MAN]

Thanks for the update!

[lifespeed]

A full 6 weeks later the tubular rear sway bar arrives from Addco. They must make these to order. I used the stock end link studs with the Addco poly bushings instead of the Addco thru-bolt.

It was worth the wait! I pushed the car hard through a twisty high-speed freeway onramp designed to test Marauder suspension balance. It was a huge improvement over the mismatched Addco front and stock rear. I blasted through the same onramp a couple days ago with the stock rear bar and could feel the balance was not right, despite the fact the car was still quite fast and stuck to the road.

Here is the surprising part: the ride quality improved greatly with the addition of the fat rear sway bar. I made no other adjustments of course, having learned with suspension tuning the most information is gained by changing one thing at a time. Even if it means more work taking the wheels and shocks on and off. This project prompted me to buy my first impact wrench. :P

For a car with suspension biased towards performance the ride quality is very impressive. Now all I have to do is make my final few test adjustments on the rear shocks (probably soften compression further) before they go back for re-valve. I'm glad I waited for the sway bar to arrive before making a final judgment on the rear. Everything works together and affects the overall balance and ride.

[J-MAN]

Sounds like you're getting down to the short strokes. I hear ya on the impact wrench!

[guspech750]

So it's been almost a month now. How are they?


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[lifespeed]

It's been great! The front is dialed in perfectly, rides nice but well-controlled. The rear shocks were at their best full soft in both directions. The reason it has taken a few weeks is experimenting with different shock settings is time-consuming! But I think I have learned exactly what it needs, so the rears are on their way back to be re-valved softer still. With the slow boat on UPS that is two weeks travel time, so easily a month before I can write the end to this chapter.

I think in general solid axle cars with a big sway bar need relatively soft valving and springs in the rear. Even with an imperfect setup in back, it was still leaps and bounds better than the stockers. Which were blown out.

I happen to have the best, lumpy highway in the world for testing suspension right here in town. Fast ripples, whoop-de-doos, etc. On a smooth road (or above 90 mph) the rear shocks feel just fine :burnout:

[lifespeed]

Got sidetracked with some rear suspension travel, sticking and binding issues (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88840). With a lowered-in-the-rear Marauder, the stock bump stops may be too tall. Additionally, the 2271# Addco tubular sway bar may need some shorter-than-stock links to allow sufficient suspension compression before the sway bar hits the diff cover and binds.

I now have the compression really soft set at full open, 50 clicks (orange trace) and 4-1/2 turns open on rebound (grey trace).

This is the best it has ever been. Unfortunately, the digressive/linear (compression/rebound) piston I had installed last time by RE Suspension is not quite what I need. I need Digressive/digressive for that very low, flat damping curve on the rebound side also. This should get closer to a reasonable 40/60 C/R balance. The air springs are very soft compared to a coil spring, hence the need for low damping.

The car handles fantastic, and rides pretty good. But still it is a little too fast in the rear, and I can tell it is the rebound that needs to loosen up.

Man, what a science project. Almost there.

Here are the graphs:

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/Penske_7500DA_rear_graph_compr ession.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/Penske_7500DA_rear_graph_rebou nd.jpg

[lifespeed]

Been driving around for a while now on the new suspension. It really handles great. It is predictable and surefooted even when pushed to the limits. Which seem to be the Firestone tires. :rolleyes:

However, I have never been happy with the rear. It just seems like it needs more compliance especially now that it has a strong sway bar, control arms and shocks. And the shocks are set really soft, although I have tried a wide range of settings.

So, I quote the esteemed dRock96Marquis (http://www.crownvic.net/drock96marquis/RAS.htm) on Air Suspension: "MMs also ride like trucks by comparison to base panthers IMO lol "

My butt dyno agrees, so I'm thinking I should install the '98+ 89 lbs/in airsprings instead of the factory HPP 102 lbs/in units. I also note that higher speeds or more weight seem to bring the ride right into line with what it should be.

Expensive experiment, but I think it might work better. There is such a thing as too stiff and too high frequency, and it isn't just up to the shocks.

[bugsyc]

I put the heavy duty yellow monroes on,one of the old ones was leaking,and I'm very happy with the ride...

[lifespeed]

I put the heavy duty yellow monroes on,one of the old ones was leaking,and I'm very happy with the ride...

Do you have stock suspension? See my sig for mods, might not be a straight comparison.

[lifespeed]

Just an update - I finally got Grand Marquis 13% softer air springs after waiting for Tasca Ford and UPS. The ride quality is so much better! It is still very firm, but not so much so it ejects me out of my seat after the upstroke.

Penske shocks are set at the soft range of the previous graph, and are very close. I think digressive/linear 7500DAs, configured as shown above with GM air springs, Addco sway bar and aftermarket control arms could be a really good combination for these cars. This is not too surprising in the end. Past experience with 4-link, solid axle, full-frame cars as well as the literature seem to indicate a softly-sprung and damped rear is called for especially when running a thick sway bar.

Unfortunately it was a learning curve of a tuning process in the rear. I am so glad I didn't have to go through as much trial and error on the front! And I will probably still tweak the Penske's one more time (details to follow), and I would really like to try the softer KYBs (555601). The local O'Reilly's will let me try them and return them if I'm not happy, just have to pay shipping. Talk about a cheap experiment :D

Edit: Naturally my barely-used OEM Marauder air springs are for sale at http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1358199#post1 358199

[lifespeed]

For those that have been following my rear suspension progress you may recall that I learned the ADDCO tubular rear sway bar requires shorter end links or it will bind against the cover and limit suspension compression. Having seen these interference problems with aftermarket parts, I thought I should take the opportunity of the de-pressurized air springs to inspect the compression travel. I saw that the shorter bump stops are still an inch from hitting when the tire is an inch above the fender lip. I also saw the Stainless Works exhaust rubbing the right Metco Watts link. I don't think it is a hard bump stop issue on all but the largest hits, but it needs to be corrected. I hope to enlist Stainless Works help on this issue Monday.

[Mr. Man]

Is the Watt's link hitting the SSW on the side or top?

Is your SSW system welded at all the joints?

[lifespeed]

Is the Watt's link hitting the SSW on the side or top?

Is your SSW system welded at all the joints?

Passenger over axle loop, top front corner. It is clear more of the available space for the loop could have been utilized, and is needed. I know a picture says a thousand words, but I was on a repair mission changing those springs and couldn't be distracted for a photo. I'll probably regret my haste and have to jack it up again to take a picture, perhaps for SSW.

It is welded and clamped. But the only way to make the clearance right is to reconfigure the one-piece axle loop by welding. Moving slip joints doesn't address this. I should be clear I think the SSW exhaust is nicely built and performs quietly. I really like it.

[Mr. Man]

My thought was to just re-adjust the clamps if it wasn't welded. Sounds like you already thought about that.

[lifespeed]

My thought was to just re-adjust the clamps if it wasn't welded. Sounds like you already thought about that.

I'll double-check when I crawl under there again, but it sure looked like moving the loop forward to clear the front of the Watts link would then move the rear part of the loop too close to the sway bar. Not to mention clearance for the axle traveling up towards the frame.

[lifespeed]

Here are the pics. A bit hard to see, harder to wield a huge camera and flash crawling under the car. The front vertical part of the loop is too close to the Watt's link and does not use the available space behind the horizontal crossmember. The loop should be one inch longer (with the added length placed to the front, shortening the bend after the muffler. It should also be an inch taller.

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/marauder_exhaust_IMG_9590.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/marauder_exhaust_IMG_9584.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/marauder_exhaust_IMG_9585.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/marauder_exhaust_IMG_9586.jpg

[lifespeed]

Here is the interference:

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/marauder_exhaust_IMG_9584_mark ed.jpg

[burt ragio]

Sway bar should be at a 90 degree. 15 degree max. Shorter end links may be needed due to lowering the car.

[justbob]

My SW hit in the very same place. I already repositioned it twice already, I think I finally jacked it all up so high it finally cleared.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[lifespeed]

I had the same guy who installed the exhaust reposition it. While I still believe the axle loops could have been designed to allowed more suspension clearance, it wasn't necessary to modify the axle loop. After raising and adjusting the exhaust it then rattled against the driver's side seatbelt reinforcing bracket so he trimmed the bracket slightly.

I have had a lot of issues with rear suspension clearance and travel, all associated with aftermarket parts of course :rolleyes:. All fixed now. Just need to have the seats rebuilt and reinforced (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91601) as they are currently overpowered (or just plain worn out) with the new ride.

[Taemian]

Where did all the photos go? And how are you liking this set up now?

[lifespeed]

Where did all the photos go? And how are you liking this set up now?

Photos were a victim of Comcast discontinuing web hosting. I'll try and put them back up in the next couple days. Edit: pics are back up, mostly page 1 and 2

As far as the suspension goes, all of the problems were worked out some time ago. There were issues with the sway bar end link length causing the sway bar to bind against the differential cover, Stainless Works exhaust hitting the Metco Watt's link, and the slightly-lowered rear occasionally hitting the bump stops. And getting the shock valving right for air springs in the rear took several iterations.

The ride quality is excellent and not too harsh, although it is firm. Handling is amazing! Cornering grip is out of this world. Turn-in and balance is very nice. It tends towards slight oversteer, but is very controllable.

The next project, after upgrading the front brakes to Aero6 Wilwood calipers and 20" wheels, will be to further improve the front/rear balance by relocating the battery to the trunk.

[lifespeed]

Just an update years later. I finally upgraded the wheels and brakes with outstanding results. Low profile tires are a must-have for good handling, and surprisingly good ride too - much better the stock balloon tires. Here is a link (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1480417#post1 480417), and here too (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=95872).

[daddyusmaximus]

I would like to see some photos of this suspension please. Old thread, and they're all missing.

[Lowndex]

Thank you for all your time posting the front and rear suspension journey. As you know, I have asked BRG Racing to copy your front and rear setup.

[lifespeed]

Most of the pics are back up, see page 1 and 2 of this thread. I didn't put up all the shock dyno graphs. If you're interested in a reasonable starting point for custom valved shocks PM me.

[lifespeed]

I have noticed that at the right speeds, on the right freeway with small ripples in the concrete, I would get some vibration in the steering wheel. At first I thought it was just wheel balance, but it persisted through the upgrade to 20" wheels. Eventually I realized it was most likely feedback from the bumps. It would only happen at certain speeds on particular road surfaces.

I have been taking advantage of the firmer tires by gradually tightening up the damping and observing results. With increased damping I have noticed this feedback/vibration at the steering wheel has gradually disappeared. This is good news, and I have concluded that insufficient damping allowed too much movement of the front wheels and this was transmitted through the steering wheel under some circumstances.

It is things like this that really make me appreciate the value of a good adjustable shock. Without adjustment fixing minor annoyances like this would be completely out of reach, not to mention tuning to match the tires, springs, etc.

[Lowndex]

Salivating to have the same fun you enjoy. Penske shocks ordered.

[MarauderOK]

so if some uneducated shmuck such as myself wanted to start talking suspension improvements, could I start with the sway bars that you used? Would that make much of a difference?

[daddyusmaximus]

That's what I'm doing. There was a big sale on the rear Addco a while back and I jumped on it. Probably get the front soon and put them on when the weather warms up. From what I've read, the rear control arms make a pretty big difference, but I'm getting new shoes for her first.

[babbage]

so if some uneducated shmuck such as myself wanted to start talking suspension improvements, could I start with the sway bars that you used? Would that make much of a difference?


You want new rear control arms - not factory (3) flavors available

Metco
Sparta
Henious


I have Heinous and love them - http://adtr.net/product/ford-crown-victoria/heinous-billet-upper-and-lower-control-arms-98-whales/

Makes a big difference

[lifespeed]

so if some uneducated shmuck such as myself wanted to start talking suspension improvements, could I start with the sway bars that you used? Would that make much of a difference?

The sway bars are a good start, as is the Metco polyurethane-bushed Watt's link. Lower control arms are available from various vendors.

A couple things to be aware of:

polyurethane-bushed lower control arms (not the Watt's link) do create some roll bind, this will stiffen the rear in a non-ideal way. Most find it an acceptable trade off, but it is something to be aware of.

There is considerably more cornering performance available beyond these basic upgrades if one is willing to upgrade to stiffer springs and the matching shocks. Further still are low-profile 20" tires. The difference is night and day compared to the "standard" suspension upgrades of control/Watt's, sway bars and KYB shocks. But so is the price.

I think it was well worth it.

[GreekGod]

...
There is considerably more cornering performance available beyond these basic upgrades if one is willing to upgrade to stiffer springs and the matching shocks. Further still are low-profile 20" tires. The difference is night and day compared to the "standard" suspension upgrades of control/Watt's, sway bars and KYB shocks ...

Of course, for a controlled environment (a race track where limits can be tested) -- going beyond basic upgrades has diminishing returns (and as you suggested, increasing expense). That's not even addressing the $$$$ needed for brakes and a roll cage.

For street legal driving, tires to match driving conditions, standard springs, bigger sway bars, upgraded control arms + Watts link, and premium shocks might be all that's needed for the MM/CVPI/Town Car 99%.

==

[lifespeed]

Of course, for a controlled environment (a race track where limits can be tested) -- going beyond basic upgrades has diminishing returns (and as you suggested, increasing expense). That's not even addressing the $$$$ needed for brakes and a roll cage.

For street legal driving, tires to match driving conditions, standard springs, bigger sway bars, upgraded control arms + Watts link, and premium shocks might be all that's needed for the MM/CVPI/Town Car 99%.

==

Having driven the car both ways I would not characterize the springs and adjustable shocks as "diminshing returns". The car is much more stable over uneven road surfaces and in corners at any speed. The car does not do the typical sideways hop when a bump or crack is encountered mid-corner. To be honest the springs, shocks and tires are more important than the sway bars. In fact, I will be reducing the rear sway bar rate as it is actually too much for the current configuration and tends to induce slight oversteer.

Yes, the cost is high but the improvements are real and felt on the street.

[GreekGod]

Having driven the car both ways I would not characterize the springs and adjustable shocks as "diminishing returns". The car is much more stable over uneven road surfaces and in corners at any speed. The car does not do the typical sideways hop when a bump or crack is encountered mid-corner ...

My stock MM suspension never did any "typical sideways hop when a bump or crack is encountered mid-corner". Such a reaction suggest improper springs or worn shock absorbers.

I am of the type who prefers compliant springs tuned with proper shocks for good street performance.

==

[daddyusmaximus]

My stock MM suspension never did any "typical sideways hop when a bump or crack is encountered mid-corner". Such a reaction suggest improper springs or worn shock absorbers.

I am of the type who prefers compliant springs tuned with proper shocks for good street performance.

==

Mine did on the first time I drove it hard. Not bad, not enough to be unsettling like in other cars, but there was a bit of a jump. Still impressed with the stock vehicle. I don't want to upgrade my springs as I like the self leveling air bag setup.

If the front springs were to be upgraded on their own, would the stock rear air bags keep me from seeing the improvement?

[lifespeed]

My stock MM suspension never did any "typical sideways hop when a bump or crack is encountered mid-corner". Such a reaction suggest improper springs or worn shock absorbers.

I am of the type who prefers compliant springs tuned with proper shocks for good street performance.

OK, each to their own. Buy you haven't driven the setup I have, while I have driven a new Marauder with factory Tokico shocks and springs in good working order. So I know how the two different setups ride and handle.

[MarauderOK]

polyurethane-bushed lower control arms (not the Watt's link) do create some roll bind, this will stiffen the rear in a non-ideal way. Most find it an acceptable trade off, but it is something to be aware of.



how bad would this be? I'm having a hard time picturing what this would be like in day to day driving.

edit:
this is the watt's link that you were talking about, right?
http://metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MWL0304

[lifespeed]

I am of the type who prefers compliant springs tuned with proper shocks for good street performance.

And there is the rub. You can't do any tuning with a non-adjustable shock. It is a gamble on matching parts that rarely works, especially on our cars with no aftermarket support.

[lifespeed]

how bad would this be? I'm having a hard time picturing what this would be like in day to day driving.

edit:
this is the watt's link that you were talking about, right?
http://metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MWL0304

Yes, that is the Watt's link. As to how big of a problem the poly control arm bushings presents, it is hard to say. You might try the Watt's link first on it's own. If you have original control arms they are sure to cause problems as the rubber will be wasted from miles and age. All the aftermarket arms are poly, I don't know that any would accept the OEM rubber. A member here (Zack) used to make control arms with OEM rubber bushings, but I don't think they are in production any more.

Anyway, I thought the 4-link binding was enough of an issue that I will address it by converting to torque arm suspension. But I am installing a new 9" rear axle anyway, so adding this to the project isn't that much more. For most, changing rear suspension setup is beyond the scope of what they are willing to do.

If you really want to keep the axle movement free (controlled by sway bar, springs and shocks) then rubber control arms, either new OEM or aftermarket with rubber bushings fitted, will do this best. The Metco polyurethane Watt's link doesn't cause binding, just tightens up side-to-side movement.

[GreekGod]

And there is the rub. You can't do any tuning with a non-adjustable shock. It is a gamble on matching parts that rarely works, especially on our cars with no aftermarket support.

The stock MM came with matching parts. Didn't need anything done with springs and shocks. The real world is street driving - the OEM 18" Alcoa forged alloy wheels, the suspension with tires to match the driving conditions, bigger sway bars, upgraded control arms (and Watts link) - it's all that 99% of MM owners will ever need.

Trying to think beyond Ford's suspension engineers is not for the 99%. Cop springs and cop shocks work fine. When you drive through 8" of snow, like I did today, everything else is immaterial.

==

[MarauderOK]

Yes, that is the Watt's link. As to how big of a problem the poly control arm bushings presents, it is hard to say. You might try the Watt's link first on it's own. If you have original control arms they are sure to cause problems as the rubber will be wasted from miles and age. All the aftermarket arms are poly, I don't know that any would accept the OEM rubber. A member here (Zack) used to make control arms with OEM rubber bushings, but I don't think they are in production any more.

Anyway, I thought the 4-link binding was enough of an issue that I will address it by converting to torque arm suspension. But I am installing a new 9" rear axle anyway, so adding this to the project isn't that much more. For most, changing rear suspension setup is beyond the scope of what they are willing to do.

If you really want to keep the axle movement free (controlled by sway bar, springs and shocks) then rubber control arms, either new OEM or aftermarket with rubber bushings fitted, will do this best. The Metco polyurethane Watt's link doesn't cause binding, just tightens up side-to-side movement.

Thank you, sir. You are an encyclopedia of knowledge. :beer:

I'm copying all of this down. I'll start with the Watt's link. Just for clarification, are you saying that with the watt's link installed, it's possible to install the sway bars in a way that won't cause binding? or am I misunderstanding that.

[lifespeed]

The sway bar resists body roll in a predictable, linear manner. A larger sway bar hurts ride quality slightly, but most prefer the reduced roll.

Polyurethane control arm bushings resist deformation in roll, something that is inherently part of 4-link. They do so in an unpredictable and nonlinear manner.

Read up on rear solid axle suspension types.

[lifespeed]

Trying to think beyond Ford's suspension engineers is not for the 99%. Cop springs and cop shocks work fine. When you drive through 8" of snow, like I did today, everything else is immaterial.

I never said this was for the 99% or slogging through snow. Just sharing what I have learned on my journey to make this car drive the best possible. The Marauder has great potential and can do a lot more than as delivered from the factory.

The OEM shocks were good, but you can't buy them anymore.

[daddyusmaximus]

The sway bar resists body roll in a predictable, linear manner. A larger sway bar hurts ride quality slightly, but most prefer the reduced roll.

Polyurethane control arm bushings resist deformation in roll, something that is inherently part of 4-link. They do so in an unpredictable and nonlinear manner.

Read up on rear solid axle suspension types.

How so? Where do I learn more? Everything I have read about polyurethane says they're stiffer, not quite harsh, but better handling. Now, "unpredictable" doesn't sound like what you want in a quick handling car.

[lifespeed]

How so? Where do I learn more? Everything I have read about polyurethane says they're stiffer, not quite harsh, but better handling. Now, "unpredictable" doesn't sound like what you want in a quick handling car.

Third post down (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42568) is a good write up on the various types of rear suspensions. 4-link binds, rubber allows it to move more freely, polyurethane less so. But under a lot of power the compliance of rubber can be problematic also. It is all about trade-offs.

The best, no-compromise rear suspension is 3-link, but it wants the upper control arm in the back seat. Next best is torque arm, and it doesn't sacrifice the back seat.

Unpredictable: you enter a corner, midway through as weight transfers to the outside rear the 4-link starts to resist roll due to binding. It unloads the inside rear, transferring all the weight to the outside rear. Worst case this results in snap oversteer. Again, not black and white but shades of grey. I still have poly in the rear in the metco control arms, and the car handles pretty good. But I can feel this effect, I'm going to fix it. It is worth pointing out you get a similar effect from too much rear anti-roll bar. Feels great going in, midway through it wants to oversteer.

[daddyusmaximus]

I got some studying to do. Thanks. As a novice, I only know a little, but I want the best handling car I can get, as I plan to have fun with this vehicle. I also equate better handling with safer car. If I have to make an emergency maneuver, I want quick, but predictable, handling and brakes.