Lets Talk Engine Build

[blkZooM]

Been reading up on a lot of mustang sites about difference engine builds for the last year basically and have finalize what I want to do. I can't seem to find the an answer for a question I have on those site so I figured why not ask you guys.

When most people do the big bore stroker engine build others seem to always ask if they are also doing cams and ported heads. I'm trying figure out why is it necessary to do that once you go the 5.3L route. Needless to say I've already ask around and found someone to do custom grind cams and am looking into Livernois for the ported heads it gets pricey fast.

Would getting the 5.3L short block installed with stock cams and heads basically be considered a waste of time, and why exactly is ported heads and cams a must with the big bore stroker are the question I am asking

Thanks in advance for the help

[martyo]

Bigger motors needd more air. Bigger cams will help get that air in there.

[ctrlraven]

I myself thought about doing a BBS 324-327ci but I came across a good deal for just doing a bored out setup. Using a stock cobra forged crank, FRPP Boss 302 block and big bore pistons. I won't be porting the heads as the heads already flow very well, just need to clean up areas and then staying with stock exhaust cams but using 98 cobra intake cams.

End result will be a 305-306ci with a compression goal of 10.5 - 11.0 range.

[MOTOWN]

I considered the BBS stroker route until I realized how much it would cost just to build the short block! So I bought a crate motor and was done with it!

I don't think most understand how much it actually cost to build one of those motors

[Vortech347]

If you are going with boost. Don't worry about cubes so much. Boost can make up for cubes. Just use GOOD parts for your internals.

[SpartaPerformance]

What are your final plans for this car in terms of power?

[Spectragod]

I don't think most understand how much it actually cost to build one of those motors

Isn't that the truth?

[jimlam56]

Isn't that the truth?
I think it's a good topic and I'm glad that a youngster asked it.
I'll be looking at a rebuild within the next few years and will like to hear what's state of the art nowadays.

[LANDY]

You would spend the same amount of money building a big bore stroker n/a 400hp motor as a stock bore and stroke 650 hp boosted one.

[blkZooM]

I don't think most understand how much it actually cost to build one of those motors

Trust me with the amount of research i've done the last year on this setup alone I know the price, you could either just out right buy the shortblock for between $5000 and a bit over $6000 dollars or get a little better price by buying everything and having a shop build it for you.

I'm going the later route because I don't have to spend a lump sum of cash at once, a bit here a bit there a little more over there and bam you got yourself a shortblock that maybe took you a year to purchase all of the parts.

Plus I never bought this car to be cheap, my soul reason for getting it was to mod the hell out of it and enjoy it


What are your final plans for this car in terms of power?

Over 600 rwp with under 19 psi of boost with stock like driveability easily possible with this setup than Maybe get wild, up the boost and hit up Atco race track it's only an half an hour away get booted off and drive home

[blkZooM]

I myself thought about doing a BBS 324-327ci but I came across a good deal for just doing a bored out setup. Using a stock cobra forged crank, FRPP Boss 302 block and big bore pistons. I won't be porting the heads as the heads already flow very well, just need to clean up areas and then staying with stock exhaust cams but using 98 cobra intake cams.

End result will be a 305-306ci with a compression goal of 10.5 - 11.0 range.

Honestly, I was thinking of going this route (minus the stock cams and cobra intake) but I wanted to be able to run in the mid 10's when its all said and done and have the blower not overspinning too much while trying to do it. Basically a fast 4400+ car on 93 pump tune that can be down right nasty when I want to get serious by simply upping the boost and increasing the octane

my end result hopefully if it all goes as planned is 323ci stage 2 or 3 ported heads custom grind cams, 9.1.1 c/r

[blkZooM]

You would spend the same amount of money building a big bore stroker n/a 400hp motor as a stock bore and stroke 650 hp boosted one.

just cought this, N/A is not an option lol, for me at least with this setup

didn't really want to bring this up but it's in the open so o well, I bacailly planned out everything I want. 2.3 whipple is what I plan as using as the power adder, now one of the only things I can not figure out is how much psi would I be at with a 3.5 pulley and a stock lower?

Gen 2 whipple make 15 psi on most cobras with that upper and stock lower, but with a 5.3L and all the other stuff I mentioned I'm lost at what it would be. A cobra with basically the same setup but a 2.9 whipple with maybe a bit lower c/r made 14 psi, it's suppose to make 19 psi on the stock 3.5 pulley.

Even got a blower RPM chart to help out that I found on another site to help

Here it is


Blower Revolution per Minute Chart
Take the last number and multiply it by the max engine RPM and you'll see how hard your spinning the SC
Upper..... Crank
Pulley.......Pulley
------------Stock lower
--2.5 ----- 7.5 = 3.0
--2.7 ----- 7.5 = 2.777
--2.75 ---- 7.5 = 2.727
--2.93 ---- 7.5 = 2.559
--3.0 ----- 7.5 = 2.5
--3.25 ---- 7.5 = 2.32
--3.375 --- 7.5 = 2.222
--3.5 ----- 7.5 = 2.14
--4.0 ----- 7.5 = 1.875

-----------#2 LOWER
--2.5 ----- 8.0 = 3.2
--2.7 ----- 8.0 = 2.96
--2.75 ---- 8.0 = 2.909
--2.93 ---- 8.0 = 2.73
--3.0 ----- 8.0 = 2.666
--3.25 ---- 8.0 = 2.461
--3.375 --- 8.0 = 2.37
--3.5 ----- 8.0 = 2.285
--4.0 ----- 8.0 = 2.0


----------#4 lower
--2.5 ---- 8.5 = 3.4
--2.7 ---- 8.5 = 3.148
--2.75 --- 8.5 = 3.09
--2.93 --- 8.5 = 2.90
--3.0 ---- 8.5 = 2.833
--3.25 --- 8.5 = 2.615
--3.375 -- 8.5 = 2.518
--3.5 ----- 8.5 = 2.428
--4.0 ----- 8.5 = 2.125

[SC Cheesehead]

Honestly, I was thinking of going this route (minus the stock cams and cobra intake) but I wanted to be able to run in the mid 10's when its all said and done and have the blower not overspinning too much while trying to do it. Basically a fast 4400+ car on 93 pump tune that can be down right nasty when I want to get serious by simply upping the boost and increasing the octane

my end result hopefully if it all goes as planned is 323ci stage 2 or 3 ported heads custom grind cams, 9.1.1 c/r

If your plan is to run mid 10's:


Don't expect to get anywhere near that NA, no matter what size block you go with.
Shed some SERIOUS weight, 4,400 lbs won't do it without HUGE HP.
Better plan on running something other than 93 octane fuel.
As our beloved Mo often says: "Speed costs money, kid, how fast you wanna go?"

[ctrlraven]

As with the increase of power comes the increase of fuel delivery and tuning woes.

[Gordy]

Just curious, when you guys talk the price of doing a stroker engine, is the numbers you guys are throwing out what it would be including labor for having a engine shop build it, or is it just parts and doing it yourself. I know most people don't have the means to tear down an engine, but I just want to clarify if possible.

[blkZooM]

Yeah your bound to run into problems who doesn't but it makes up for it when you finally achieve your goal. Seems what modding your is all about to me I guess, and to cheesehead no weight shedding just going to turn up the boost a lot and burn race fuel I guess when I'm ready to go there. It can be done that's why I choose the 5.3L route it's a lot easier to get to that "power" that you mentioned than it would be with a 4.6L fordnuts is making 750 rwhp on 17 psi with 16 degrees of timing and he stated he could run into the 9s. Read some old threads on here where Landy said it would take 600 to 650 rwhp i believe to get our cars into the 10s that's a walk in the park with this set up.

[blkZooM]

Just curious, when you guys talk the price of doing a stroker engine, is the numbers you guys are throwing out what it would be including labor for having a engine shop build it, or is it just parts and doing it yourself. I know most people don't have the means to tear down an engine, but I just want to clarify if possible.

From what I've notice the price I gave out was just for the shortblock alone. I've looked into basically buying everything I need from the block from Tousley, rotating assembly from MMR arp main, sides and heads studs for a about 1500 than you would pay for just purchasing the shortblock from a big name shop. On my end ill most likely end up dishing out that anyways because I the shop I hope builds my shortblock L&M just waiting on a quote from them now to really see what it could cost, but there so much more that you should do when you go that route and that's when the price starts to Amy rocket.

didn't really answer your question, if you could build the engine yourself you saving about have of what you would be someone else to build it.

[Gordy]

I get what your saying, I just know what I have already spent, then I see prices guys are throwing around to get stuff, started to worry I either missed something or my parts were from China ha. I'm a naturally paranoid person.

One other question, hopefully it does not cause a derail for ya, but why does it seem everyone is scared to make power with the stock block?

[jflave]

Trust me with the amount of research i've done the last year on this setup alone I know the price, you could either just out right buy the shortblock for between $5000 and a bit over $6000 dollars or get a little better price by buying everything and having a shop build it for you.

I'm going the later route because I don't have to spend a lump sum of cash at once, a bit here a bit there a little more over there and bam you got yourself a shortblock that maybe took you a year to purchase all of the parts.

Plus I never bought this car to be cheap, my soul reason for getting it was to mod the hell out of it and enjoy it



Over 600 rwp with under 19 psi of boost with stock like driveability easily possible with this setup than Maybe get wild, up the boost and hit up Atco race track it's only an half an hour away get booted off and drive home YO if you do go to Atco send me a PM, if iam not working i'll come watch if thats ok with you. :)

[SpartaPerformance]

If you're planning on 600rwhp you're going to have to go with boost, at that point no need for extra expense of a big bore or stroker kit. Get a nice Aluminator short block from FRPP with the 2yr limited warranty boost it and be done with it.

[ctrlraven]

Double check with MMR cause I was told when adding a stroker kit to a BOSS 302 block it's a different crank used than what would be for a 4.6 based block. The BOSS 302 block can use a stock 4.6 crank but just requires the cylinders to be bored out more since "big bore pistons" must be used.

That's the reason why I decided to just stick with a bored out setup instead of doing a big bore stroker.

[1 Bad Merc]

If you plan on making 600 hp you better be planning on upgrading the rearend -31 spline axles minimum, heavy duty clutches, etc. Then you will need to upgrade the fuel system and you will also probably need to upgrade the trans while you are at it.

That's alot of extra moeny (I should know :)) so good luck on your build.

[J-MAN]

Curious what L&M comes up with. Keep us posted. I was going to take a set of heads to Fox Lake and sent them an email. I got a call and we talked over my flexible plans on doing a just a stroker or doing the Boss block with a stroker for a 5.3. When I said that I was going to port my Trilogy m112 he told me to forget sinking big bucks into the heads as the m112, even ported, will severely limit horsepower. The suggestion was to just do a forged 4.6, heads, cams and top it off with a bigger blower, either a Whipple or a KB. Rethinking my whole approach.

Very interesting thread for a snowy day in Michigan.

Just how big of a blower will fit under a stock hood? I see some with a 2.3 and wonder why not a 2.9. Driveability?

[SC Cheesehead]

Yeah your bound to run into problems who doesn't but it makes up for it when you finally achieve your goal. Seems what modding your is all about to me I guess, and to cheesehead no weight shedding just going to turn up the boost a lot and burn race fuel I guess when I'm ready to go there. It can be done that's why I choose the 5.3L route it's a lot easier to get to that "power" that you mentioned than it would be with a 4.6L fordnuts is making 750 rwhp on 17 psi with 16 degrees of timing and he stated he could run into the 9s. Read some old threads on here where Landy said it would take 600 to 650 rwhp i believe to get our cars into the 10s that's a walk in the park with this set up.

And he's prolly got somewhere north of $15K into the motor, not to mention other upgrades to the car.

As to running in the 9's, don't forget you've gotta get all that power to the ground...:cool:

[blkZooM]

Double check with MMR cause I was told when adding a stroker kit to a BOSS 302 block it's a different crank used than what would be for a 4.6 based block. The BOSS 302 block can use a stock 4.6 crank but just requires the cylinders to be bored out more since "big bore pistons" must be used.

That's the reason why I decided to just stick with a bored out setup instead of doing a big bore stroker.

Hmm thanks for the information ill double check with them, I could just end up doing the 5.15L which comes in either the 6 bolt or 8 bolt crank and save about $120 from not buying a new flexplate

[blkZooM]

Curious what L&M comes up with. Keep us posted. I was going to take a set of heads to Fox Lake and sent them an email. I got a call and we talked over my flexible plans on doing a just a stroker or doing the Boss block with a stroker for a 5.3. When I said that I was going to port my Trilogy m112 he told me to forget sinking big bucks into the heads as the m112, even ported, will severely limit horsepower. The suggestion was to just do a forged 4.6, heads, cams and top it off with a bigger blower, either a Whipple or a KB. Rethinking my whole approach.

Very interesting thread for a snowy day in Michigan.

Just how big of a blower will fit under a stock hood? I see some with a 2.3 and wonder why not a 2.9. Driveability?

Well honestly for all the Easton swap marauders I don't think many people really want more power than what the easton is giving them, most are on stock blocks anyways. There're only a handful of people that i know of at least with the 2.3, no reason for a 2.9 just to big of a blower for most. (Just my opinion)

[blkZooM]

If you plan on making 600 hp you better be planning on upgrading the rearend -31 spline axles minimum, heavy duty clutches, etc. Then you will need to upgrade the fuel system and you will also probably need to upgrade the trans while you are at it.

That's alot of extra moeny (I should know :)) so good luck on your build.

I gave myself realistic amount I see myself spending over $15,000 when's its all said and done. From built trans, fuel system as you mentioned which is still in the air between return style or returnless with a dual fpdm. I know how much it's going to cost but I don't mind it. I'm young with no kids and in College This is the best time for me to get this build started

[blkZooM]

And he's prolly got somewhere north of $15K into the motor, not to mention other upgrades to the car.

As to running in the 9's, don't forget you've gotta get all that power to the ground...:cool:

True that. As I said before I bought this car to simply mod and make very fun. I've looked into everything I need to actually get there I know the prices of them, remember this is something that is going to happen overtime not trying to do all this tomorrow which softens blow on the amount of money one well I am going to spend. I figure do the cheaper stuff first while still stock.

[ctrlraven]

Hmm thanks for the information ill double check with them, I could just end up doing the 5.15L which comes in either the 6 bolt or 8 bolt crank and save about $120 from not buying a new flexplate

Since I haven't gotten my block done yet I can only guess but thinking of $1000-1500 for machining and assembling of my setup and will still end up being cheaper than doing a 5.0 stroker from MMR shipped.

I went back and forth between stroker, bored or bbs. At least for me staying NA I found my best choice was just going with bore. More natural cubes and run high compression will make for a good solid NA performance motor.

If you end up doing a bored motor piece by piece LMK, I have big bore pistons for low compression for sale as I need different ones to get the higher compression. All you would need is a a boss 302 block, forged rods, forged crank (used stock cobra crank) and the other little odds and ends and you'd have a solid shortblock.

FYI if you build a low compression motor now and wait to boost down the road the motor will run like poop because of the low compression and being NA.

[dohc324ci]

Built bbs motor h/c/i, trans, exhaust and rims etc $17-18k easy. I stopped counting....still need sc and suspension and....it just never ends.

[blkZooM]

Built bbs motor h/c/i, trans, exhaust and rims etc $17-18k easy. I stopped counting....still need sc and suspension and....it just never ends.

Cheaper to do it once the expensive than twice the wrong way.

[blkZooM]

Since I haven't gotten my block done yet I can only guess but thinking of $1000-1500 for machining and assembling of my setup and will still end up being cheaper than doing a 5.0 stroker from MMR shipped.

I went back and forth between stroker, bored or bbs. At least for me staying NA I found my best choice was just going with bore. More natural cubes and run high compression will make for a good solid NA performance motor.

If you end up doing a bored motor piece by piece LMK, I have big bore pistons for low compression for sale as I need different ones to get the higher compression. All you would need is a a boss 302 block, forged rods, forged crank (used stock cobra crank) and the other little odds and ends and you'd have a solid shortblock.

FYI if you build a low compression motor now and wait to boost down the road the motor will run like poop because of the low compression and being NA.

Thanks for the offer, but I plan on going a bit higher on my setup also, thinking it's going to be 9.1.

[ctrlraven]

Thanks for the offer, but I plan on going a bit higher on my setup also, thinking it's going to be 9.1.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84750

With 51cc heads you will have 9.3.

[blkZooM]

damn, those would be ideal for me, unfortunately I wouldn't be able to get those at the very moment and your trying to get these sold asap to start you build

[ctrlraven]

damn, those would be ideal for me, unfortunately I wouldn't be able to get those at the very moment and your trying to get these sold asap to start you build
Yeah IF you were to piece together your shortblock, that's something you have to decide on whether you go stroker, bore or BBS.

If they sell now or next month it doesn't really matter. I am right now buying parts for the heads (cam sprockets, valve seals, valve springs etc etc).

I can buy my new pistons right now but I'd rather wait to sell my current ones first so I don't dip back into the build fund.

[Spectragod]

Built bbs motor h/c/i, trans, exhaust and rims etc $17-18k easy. I stopped counting....still need sc and suspension and....it just never ends.

^^^ this^^^ and then some(double ;)), 5.0 stroker, Crower cams/springs, twin screw, LT's. built trans, Dynotech DS, built rear (currently getting re-built), wilwoods, widened wheels, de-tuned to 521rwhp, perfect "street" car.....now.

[MOTOWN]

Built bbs motor h/c/i, trans, exhaust and rims etc $17-18k easy. I stopped counting....still need sc and suspension and....it just never ends.

Exactly! i bought an Aluminator long block, and ive spent over 20k total and im not done yet!:censor:

[RacerX]

To answer the very first question, IMO, for what you want, stock cams would be a waste. Heads, I'm partial to less restriction of air flow when going with high boost. Bowl work, short turn radius, good valve job, gasket matched... Air flows very much like a liquid so fluid dynamics is key here.

[Blown3.8]

Blkzoom, I suggest going with the 2.9 if you want to run mid tens with that much weight.

No need to spend big bucks on extra cubes like everyone else is saying. 4.6 will be just fine. Don't even need to mess with the heads.

With the 2.3 we make 19.5 psi with the 3.5 and 4# lower, with long tubes. Spin the motor to 7k on stock heads with cobra crank rods and 9.2:1 CP pistons.

[Blown3.8]

Ctrlraven, what bore size and block are you going with?

[RacerX]

Chris, you're running stock cams in those heads and aren't choking before 7k?

[ctrlraven]

Ctrlraven, what bore size and block are you going with?
3.700 and FRPP BOSS302 block http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 9085

How's your schedule look for after April? I hope to have everything tracked down by then and in hand to take to Lloyd to build the motor.

[Blown3.8]

Chris, you're running stock cams in those heads and aren't choking before 7k?

Yeah, and no idea. Guess should get to the dyno and see where it makes power.

[J-MAN]

Well honestly for all the Easton swap marauders I don't think many people really want more power than what the easton is giving them, most are on stock blocks anyways. There're only a handful of people that i know of at least with the 2.3, no reason for a 2.9 just to big of a blower for most. (Just my opinion)

Your opinion is based on what? I've already got a Trilogy on a stock block that delivers 450rwhp and it's great. There's just those dreams of over 600rwhp and the eaton is the bottle neck to get there.

[blkZooM]

Your opinion is based on what? I've already got a Trilogy on a stock block that delivers 450rwhp and it's great. There's just those dreams of over 600rwhp and the eaton is the bottle neck to get there.

Opinion was based on not ditching the Eaton and going twin scew, if more power is something the seriously are after. As you said said the eaton isn't going to get you to that mark

[WhatsUpDOHC]

YO if you do go to Atco send me a PM, if iam not working i'll come watch if thats ok with you. :)
Yes! Let me know as well.

[J-MAN]

Opinion was based on not ditching the Eaton and going twin scew, if more power is something the seriously are after. As you said said the eaton isn't going to get you to that mark

Thanks for your reply!

[frankdc]

I had the hardest time finding a 4.6l remanufactured Marauder 2003 engine. My engine finally gave out with 198,000 miles! I have owned the car since 2005 and bought it used with 20,000. My parent's mechanics, these Korean guys in LA, rebuilt my engine for $4,700 parts and labor. The engine runs great. I just need to replace a sensor and a gas cap or gas cap sensor!