Mac & Zack Rear Control Arms!!

[Logan]

I'm proud to both own and present to the general MM.net membership the hottest new mod for the Mercury Marauder! Tubular rear control arms!

Co-developed by our very own Zack & Mac, these control arms are of incredible quality. But let you not take my word for it. In a recent remote interview with the Mac himself he had this to say:



Zack and I spent much of the ’03 season running around the country, OTR runs to visit with friends and drag racing. It was a good year, but near the end of the season, both our MMs started to exhibit control problems. Zack was having trouble hooking up at the gates, and not only was I eating up tires left and right, I was having control issues in high speed cornering. I’ve got three sets of Pirelli tires in my garage; all with less than 2/32 of tread left. I am not complaining about the fun we had, but I should have seen better than 12.81 too.

Trying to push 4400 pounds in a straight line is not an easy task, I agree, but my launch was out of control. The Pirelli tires would bite, but the axle would twist up and to my right, and the rear end would come around and start driving it’s own lane. Same thing in the twisties, I’d power up out of a turn and whoosh! I’m in a spin. Not good, and surely not fun. Road handling was getting real loose, even at legit highway speeds, and I was getting real shy about the left-handed Kentucky like highway curves. Coming out of our Hershey PA meet last Oct., I couldn’t hang with Cruztaker to save my life. The car was drifting like I could not explain, and for a while, I chalked it up to worn tires. But, once I change them out for better tread depths, it all just seemed to grow worse. I may not be a professionally trained driver, but I’ve been driving Ford police cars for 28 years, and in some very dangerous situations. My MM was acting like a 100K mile CV/PI, and something had to change.

Once Zack and I parked our cars for the winter, we began sketching out what we could do to make the MM bite better and endure hard cornering with a better attitude about it all. We decided that the OEM upper and lower control arms are inadequate for the long-term wear and tear of weight and horsepower our MMs produce, and we set out to do something about that. We enlisted the help of Mike Lopez, owner of High Speed Performance in Chicago Ridge Illinois, a man who drives 200 MPH for a living. He looked over the problem and agreed that the OEM arms allow too much left to right flexing and most of my cornering issues grew directly from this flex.

Folks, I should not have to tell you what you got from the factory isn’t ideal for a performance car. It may be fine for a stretch limo, but not for a 4400 pound beast putting 450 HP to the wheels. The upper and lower arms are made of stamped steel, almost tin in comparison to the durable frame they attach to. The bushings are very, nice solid rubber about two inches thick inside a steel collar, with a steel sleeve in the core. However, the control arms themselves only occupy about 25% of the bushing, and they can “walk” left to right and back again under torque.

Mike pulled the control arms for some fine measuring. He predicted that the bottom control arms were at greater risk than the top arms because of how they function, and he was right. The internal OD of the arm where the bushing rests, was already 4/100 out of spec. It’s stretching at it’s thinnest point, and that could someday snap. Do that under hard power, and you will see a daisy chain affect on the remaining arms. Mike developed a nice set of upper and lower control arms made from cold rolled steel, .125 wall. As you can see in the pics, now the bushing are fully supported across the with of the bushing, and flex is history. Moreover, the bottom arms are cut 1/8” longer than stock measurements, adding a slight pinion angle you’ll come to appreciate. We put the prototype set in my MM last week in about two hours, basic hand tools. The toughest part was bringing over the OEM bushings, more on that later. The arms drop into place, and the black powder coat finish is very OEM.

Zack and I set out to test the driving characteristics on some forest preserve back roads, and I just don’t know how to explain it. As Zack said, “it’s planted.” I tried to break it loose in a 40 MPH drift and she wouldn’t give. My cornering problems were solved. Last Sunday, Zack and I drove out to Route 41 for the opening of the ’04 drag racing season. My ET didn’t pick up, but my launch did, and very much so. My best time of the day, a 12.90 flat, I launched with no hands on the wheel. I also watched Zack launch my MM from the sidelines, and she drove straight and true for the full 1320. With these control arms in place, now I know for sure I need to step up to a drag radial, or maybe give those ET Streets another try.

I mentioned bushings, and y’all need to think about this. Neoprene and polyurethane bushings are good, yes, but you’re going to lose considerable ride quality. Right now, the back end is tight and comfy, reassuring. This transition reminded me of the improvement I felt when I replaced the OEM sway bar with Reinhart’s Addco bar. You’ll get much of that same feeling here, but you don’t want to over do it with hard bushings. The OEM bushings are fine in their new mountings; you don’t want to turn your MM into a buckboard, do you?

Zack and I decided to make a few set for our friends here. While the supply lasts, you can get a set of your own, for 395.00, including gloss black powdercoating, shipping and handling. The install is rather straightforward, they only go in one way, and with the usual hand tools. If you’re not inclined to try this, any suspension shop should get the job done right under 100 bucks. If you’re interested, drop Zack a line?

Zack McGrath
17952 Highland Ave.
Homewood Il 60430
E-mail Address is zackmcgrath@hotmail.com (zackmcgrath@hotmail.com)
Paypal Address is zackmcgrath@hotmail.com (zackmcgrath@hotmail.com)


http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=3017/1DSC00259.JPG

[CRUZTAKER]

I figured Mac and Zack were up to something...but to beat out someone-someone on a MM handling mod? Wow, congrats and thanks.

Even though I don't run s/c, I consistantly get that damn rear end swing to the right. I can't afford it now, but hope to see this products availability through the summer.

[Petrograde]

^^^what Barry said^^^

I'm interested,.. but I won't have the extra cash for a couple of months. :( I hope they're still available! I've noticed a few handling issues since I dropped in my sway bar.

Thanks guys!

Tom

[Zack]

Here they are!!
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=3017/1DSC01847.jpg
What an intense last few months this has been for Mac & I.
We were so close to having our MM's 'dialed in' but something was missing.
We have been waiting in anticipation to improve the rear control arms we all knew were inferior for over a year now. And now the problem is solved :pimp:
Mac describes the benefits of these new Control Arms very well. The car will launch straight, stay straight and give you a new sense of security while blasting down the 1320.
I cant speak highly enough for the improvement to the MM on the asphalt of suburbia. Basic cornering is a night and day difference (especially when used in conjunction with Dennis's sway bar) Body roll is virtually gone, the car will not dip in the rear during acceleration like before and the classic 4 door ride has been maintained.
We wanted this arm to be a 'universal fit' to every form of MM owner, and I think we accomplished it by utilizing the factory bushings.
We did this for a few reasons:
First, the factory bushings are a good piece, but cant perform their job in the stock control arm. AS you will see, only about 3/8" of the bushing contacts the factory control arms
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=501/404Rear_Control_Arms_024-med.jpg
Second, almost all MM's on the street have very low mileage, so the bushings are very useable. It also helped us keep cost down.
And of course we were after the performance of a tubular arm with the ride of a family sedan. Once you drive in a MM with these installed, you will see right away.
You can see here that the new control arm will cover the entire bushing:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=3017/1DSC00264.JPG
The arms are made from .125 cold rolled steel with CNC machined end pieces. The end pieces also feature a chamfered lip for easy installation of the bushings. The welds are flawless and we powdercoat them Gloss Black.
More picture are in the gallery for the viewing.
This kit will include typed instructions for the at home do-it yourselfer.
We DO recommend professional installation of the bushings, but it can be done at home. I put them in my car at home in 2 hours with the following tools: 15mm, 18mm socket, 1/2 drive ratchet, crescent wrench, hammer and vice.
The Complete kit includes 4 control arms; 2 Uppers & 2 Lowers
Pricing is $395 shipped with Gloss Black Powdercoating.
For those who do not want Black, we will ship them bare. Pricing does not change and we are not offering custom colors.
I will be happy to answer any questions, just call me 708-476-2647
If you are interested, please mail me a check to:
Zack McGrath
17952 Highland Ave.
Homewood, Il 60430
or
Paypal me at zackmcgrath@hotmail.com (also my email address)
I would very much like an e-mail or call before anyone Pay Pals me, thank you.
Thanks to everyone, you will love these :pimp:
Zack

[Zack]

Here is the stock control arm end:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=501/404Rear_Control_Arms_004-med.jpg
Side by side comparison:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=3017/1DSC00261.JPG
Upper arm installed:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=3017/1DSC00284.JPG
I actually bent the stock upper control arm while removing the bushing.
Well get a picture of it up later...

[Petrograde]

Wow,... I can't believe how thin the stock upper arm is! Not to mention the fact that it basically 'floats' on the bushing!

Sheesh,... that would explain the roll I feel when cornering really hard. Also,.. the other day I heard a 'pop' somewhere back there while taking a 90 degree turn at 35-40 mph. I wonder if that 'pop' was the control arm shifting?

Out of curiosity,.. what is the bushing's outer mating surface made of?

Tom

[Zack]

Out of curiosity,.. what is the bushing's outer mating surface made of?
Tom

Steel on the outside & steel inner sleeve

[Petrograde]

Steel on the outside & steel inner sleeve

good,... I was afraid that the bushing OD was aluminium,.. Dissimilar metal corrision would be a problem, you'd have to use a primer or epoxy.

Well,.. crap,.. I guess my Visa could handle $395,.. how many sets do you have?

Tom

[SergntMac]

Well,.. crap,.. I guess my Visa could handle $395,.. how many sets do you have? Tom
Ummm...All of them.

And to think that all this time, I thought it was my front end out of alignment.

[Petrograde]

Zack,... you have mail. :up:

Tom

[woaface]

This is very interesting, as my car has body lean like no tomorrow doesn't handle for spit. I won't be buying a set, but if I had a newer Marquis or Marauder worth investing the money in, I'd sure be settin' down some green. (Cash is king:) )

Well, I guess my thanks isn't too important considering, but I guess all of us should be very appreciative of those who will work harder to make their Marauder's better and share it with the MM community. Great work!:up:

[FordNut]

OK, so these are uppers. I assumed they were lowers. In my email msg I asked about uppers so I guess I really meant to ask is when you're gonna get the lowers done?

Or are those gonna come from Dennis?

[SergntMac]

OK, so these are uppers. I assumed they were lowers. In my email msg I asked about uppers so I guess I really meant to ask is when you're gonna get the lowers done? Or are those gonna come from Dennis?

It's both, uppers and lowers, 4 control arms.

[Logan]

This is what you get in your box... :)

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=3017/1DSC01847.jpg

[FordNut]

Great! One-stop shopping!

Zack, you've got my email by now, I hope I've got a set on reserve for me so I'll send paypal payment in just a little bit.

Scott, while you've working on my tranny ya wanna tackle these too?

Oh, and that may be a good time to paint my rusty rear end. I got some paint for it from Eastwood.

[Petrograde]

Anyone know what new upper and lower control arm bushings cost? I prob'ly don't need them, but I'm gonna try to use one of the hydraulic presses at work. ...and I'd sure hate to leave my MM on jack stands and have to drive my wife's Honda to work!

Thanks!

Tom

PS- Fordnut: good idea about painting the rear end while your at it! I think I will too.

[CRUZTAKER]

Man o' man, I didn't even notice the complete kit....I'm not sure I can wait for this:burnout:

[Zack]

This is a complete set of control arms..
2 Uppers & 2 lowers

[TAF]

Thanks...but I think I'll just take off my OEMs...and cut 'em....:D :nono: :coolman:


J/K Nice job guys!!!:up:

[BillyGman]

MAC & Zack, Looks like some real nice work guys!!!! Does anyone here think that it's at all possible that those flimsy factory stock control arms can be the reason why I've broken my left rear shock absorber in half???? I'm thinking that it might have happened at the track, because I don't remember going over any big potholes. My car isn't supercharged, so ofcourse it doesn't have all the power like MAC's or Zack's does, but I do have 4.56 gears in the rear end, and my car hooks up well at the track (60' times were 1.9).

So I wonder if those stock control arms can allow the rear end to move around back and forth and also allow the pinion angle to change so drastically during the launch that it can break atleast one of the rear shock absorbers. What do you guys think? Can that be related?

[Zack]

I cant say for sure, but it could be related.
I do know that the pinion angle is affected during extreme acceleration with stock control arms. Especially so if you have 100% traction.
We built the lower arm 1/8" longer than stock to improve the pinion angle.
You should see about 2 degrees of improvement.

[jgc61sr2002]

Anyone know what new upper and lower control arm bushings cost? I prob'ly don't need them, but I'm gonna try to use one of the hydraulic presses at work. ...and I'd sure hate to leave my MM on jack stands and have to drive my wife's Honda to work!

Thanks!

Tom

PS- Fordnut: good idea about painting the rear end while your at it! I think I will too.

Tom - I think new bushings is an excellent idea. :up:

[SergntMac]

Anyone know what new upper and lower control arm bushings cost? I prob'ly don't need them, but I'm gonna try to use one of the hydraulic presses at work.

Tom - I think new bushings is an excellent idea. :up:
Well, we did look into this, shopped three of the major suspension suppliers for the right stuff. It was very frustrating for us, we are not planning to build 1000 sets to make the price point on aftermarket bushing kits.

I'm against poly bushings in this application anyway, the the sporty yet comfy feel of the MM ride will suffer, and you won't gain that much more improvement here. The bushings are now isolated and locked into place by our design, and this is where your major improvement develops.

Secondly, "new" OEM bushings will cost you over 155. bucks for a set of eight bushings. Why so much? They are not availble individually, you'll have to buy the complete set of upper and lower arms from L/M and press them out anyway. Considering the average mileage and use on the installed bushings, Zack and I recommend you keep costs minimal at this time and use what you own. After you drive them a while, name your poision?

[BillyGman]

Thanks for your reply Zack. I'm also open to others' opinions as well. Hey Tom, if you do opt for new bushings anyway, you might want to consider heating the control arms in an oven at a low enough heat as to avoid effecting the powder coated paint, as well as the metallurgy of the part itself,(perhaps merely 200 degrees (F.), and also freeze the bushings in dry ice like we do in the aircraft industry to aid installation, and provide an intereference fit for durability.

[BruteForce]

Email sent. These look really good and I gotta have 'em. :up:

[TooManyFords]

All I can say is, "well done boys". I hope you bring a few extra sets to MV II in case I can't get a set before then.

wow!

[Marauder57]

I think I read everything here but just to confirm...we can use the existing bushings for these control arms......with no changes?

Anything that improves the handling on the MM is good stuff to me!

[jgc61sr2002]

Well, we did look into this, shopped three of the major suspension suppliers for the right stuff. It was very frustrating for us, we are not planning to build 1000 sets to make the price point on aftermarket bushing kits.

I'm against poly bushings in this application anyway, the the sporty yet comfy feel of the MM ride will suffer, and you won't gain that much more improvement here. The bushings are now isolated and locked into place by our design, and this is where your major improvement develops.

Secondly, "new" OEM bushings will cost you over 155. bucks for a set of eight bushings. Why so much? They are not availble individually, you'll have to buy the complete set of upper and lower arms from L/M and press them out anyway. Considering the average mileage and use on the installed bushings, Zack and I recommend you keep costs minimal at this time and use what you own. After you drive them a while, name your poision?

Sarge - I didn't realize that new bushings were that costly. Reusing the original ones makes a lot of sense. :up:

[Petrograde]

Zack and I recommend you keep costs minimal at this time and use what you own. After you drive them a while, name your poision?

OK Sarge,.. You haven't steered me wrong yet. I'll try my OEMs first.



Hey Tom, if you do opt for new bushings anyway, you might want to consider heating the control arms in an oven at a low enough heat as to avoid effecting the powder coated paint, as well as the metallurgy of the part itself,(perhaps merely 200 degrees (F.), and also freeze the bushings in dry ice like we do in the aircraft industry to aid installation, and provide an intereference fit for durability.

:lol: Dude,.. you read my mind! I do this this almost every day at work. I have a huge oven, a dry ice machine, and several hyd. presses. My only problem will be getting permission to actually use them! I work for a Gov't contractor... they're kinda touchy about us using the tooling for our own purposes.

Zack & Mac- so,... when will the Watts Links be available? :bounce:

Tom

[jspradii]

Zack - E-Mail and PayPal coming your way!

[Zack]

Zack & Mac- so,... when will the Watts Links be available?

Tom

We looked into this Tom.
We dont plan on making a replacement piece, it just wouldnt be of great benefit with the new control arms in place.
If anything, take your wats link out and have flat steel welded to it to beef it up.

[Petrograde]

We looked into this Tom.
We dont plan on making a replacement piece, it just wouldnt be of great benefit with the new control arms in place.
If anything, take your wats link out and have flat steel welded to it to beef it up.

I noticed in Helm manual that the Watts links were designed like the control arms, where the link just floats on the bushings.

hmmm,... I'll have to climb under the car and look at it. Oh well,.. I'm sure I'll be happy with my new control arms.

Oh yeah,... Anyone care to explain 'pinion angle' to me? :help:

Thanks!

Tom

[Warpath]

Mac and Zack - Did you guys look at the limo upper control arm? Its avery nice, wide billet looking aluminum arm. I think the bushings are a bit stiffer than stock. But, it may not be much - probably much softer than poly bushings. I'll try to find part numbers so you can look into it. It may be cheaper and would be available after your tube arms are gone. Limo lowers are not much different than stock MMs.

[Zack]

[QUOTE=Warpath] .......would be available after your tube arms are gone. QUOTE]

We wont be offering these forever, but rest assured they will be available for many months to come.
After the initial 'rush' is over, expect a 2 week waiting period after purchase.
Right now we have 15 sets at the powdercoater, 8 sets are already sold.
Many more sets are being made right now, after the rush I will order them as needed, they will be made, powdercoated and you get the point.
Powdercoating is the only phase of the operation that takes a good amount of time.
Thanks to all,
Zack

[glassman99]

Don't have the HP yet but I am slowly building up my components to be able to stand the extra HP when I decide on "which" supercharger to buy. Can these come in RED? (Put me down for a set). :banana2:

[BillyGman]

Dude,.. you read my mind! I do this this almost every day at work. I have a huge oven, a dry ice machine, and several hyd. presses. My only problem will be getting permission to actually use them! I work for a Gov't contractor... they're kinda touchy about us using the tooling for our own purposes.

.....I figured you and I were on the same page when it comes to this stuff. I remembered what you've previously stated about your employment & training backround. What I would have to do where i work in order to get a job like that done, is to bring in one control arm at a time (one per day) in a paper bag or stuffed inside my coat in order to work on it in the factory.

it has to be done carefully.......isn't worth getting fired for. But if you heat the control arms to about 200-225 degrees(F.), and merely freeze the bushings to zero degrees(F.) in your freezer at home for about one hour, then that might be enough to make the installation go easy enough to only require a couple light handed taps w/a moderately light hammer. Therefore you might not even need a press and can perform the task at home w/some adequate tools. Especially if there's a machine shop inside the building where you work like there is where I do, that you can have someone fabricate a decent installation tool for you out of something soft like aluminum. ;)

[Silver_04]

Wow-what stout looking pieces these are!

Okay, I design radios for a living so I'm a bit out of my element here but I've just got a couple of questions-no flaming at all-but some things always pop into my head when changing suspension bits on my vehicle.

First, since these new pieces are much stiffer than the flimsy factory pieces I'm wondering where the stresses generated by acceleration and conering are now being transmitted to. I imagine more loading is going to the frame and axle control arm mounting points than before. The frame mounting point for the upper control arm looks very beefy and appears to have a good weld, but it is now being loaded in a different manner.

Now don't throw me out for being too geeky here, but would it be worthwhile to place stress strain gauges on the frame and axle control arm mounting points on a stock car and a modified car to see how the stress is being transmitted differently, if at all? I am just concerned that since the OEM control arms were a weak link before, what is the new weak link? I would rather have a control arm that is a tad weaker than my frame or axle mounting points.

Chris

[Zack]

Now don't throw me out for being too geeky here, but would it be worthwhile to place stress strain gauges on the frame and axle control arm mounting points on a stock car and a modified car to see how the stress is being transmitted differently, if at all? I am just concerned that since the OEM control arms were a weak link before, what is the new weak link? I would rather have a control arm that is a tad weaker than my frame or axle mounting points.

Chris

It is a full frame car. Dont worry about it.

[BillyGman]

Oh yeah,... Anyone care to explain 'pinion angle' to me? :help:

Thanks!

Tom

okay, this isn't easy to explain w/out a diagram(I'm sure you can find one on the net using a good search engine like www.dogpile.com ), but the pinion angle is measured in degrees as is any geometric angle. It's set at a different angle for different vehicles through the manufacturing dimensions of the various rear end parts(ring & pinion gears, differential, and differential housing) and it rests at the ideal angle for positive torque transfer from the driveshaft to the axles.

The best description I can think of w/out using a diagram is to say that if you were to look at your car's rear end axles and differential housing from the side w/the rear wheel and brake rotor removed, to understand what happens to pinion angle during a hard launch from the starting line at the dragstrip during the beginning of the race, picture the rear axle & differential housing from that side view pivoting on the axis of the axles themselves counter clockwise or clockwise depending on which side of the car your view is from (passenger side or driver's side). That rotation of the axle tubes & differential housing would be changing the pinion angle. The pinion angle is in essence the angle at which the pinion gear meets or meshes w/the ring gear inside the rear end housing.

During a hard launch from a still position, the pinion angle is momentarily changed by the entire axle/rear end housing rotating under force. The more that the housing rotates on the axis of the axles themselves, and thereby changes the pinion angle, then the more of a tendency there will be for the tires to lose traction, and for the durability of the drivetrain parts involved to be compromised.

There are some after market pats over the years that have been offered for some cars to prevent this momentary change in the pinion angle of some rear wheel drive cars during hard launches. they are products such as "Traction bars" and "Ladder bars" and "Lift bars". They also prevent what's called as "wheel hop" which also sometimes occurs during an attempted burnout or hard launch in some cars, and this "wheel hop" can also cause a loss of traction as well as damage of drivetrain parts.

[Petrograde]

it has to be done carefully.......isn't worth getting fired for.
Absolutly! I'm gonna ask my boss if it would be ok if I came in an hour early and did it off the clock. We have all kinds of installation tools for bushings and bearings. In fact,.. after eyeballing the bushings on the car, I think I can use a couple of our Blackhawk tools.

If I end up doing here at the house, I'll freeze the bushings overnight and heat the control rods the next morning.

Tom

[BillyGman]

Well, don't expect a supervisor to okay you doing that unless you're a personal friend of his, and he's a very easy going guy who also has a great deal of trust in you. because unless that's the case, it usually doesn't pay to ask a supervisor that since you're asking him to stick his neck out for you and take the responsibility for company liability if you get hurt on the premesis while performing the task.

You know and I know that it shouldn't be such a big deal, but that's the way that most supervisors have to look at it, and because of that, they usually will not opkay something like that. BTW, look at my last post, because I've attempted to answer your question about pinion angle.

[martyo]

Zack:

Perhaps a brief tutorial is in order here.

How do you recommend getting the bushings out of the stock arms?

How do you recommend getting the bushings into you your custom arms?

If you don't tell us, we are all likely to end up at Tom or Billy's work places with coolers and torches.

[BillyGman]

ofcourse I'm sure that Zack will want to address that question, but until he does, just allow me to point out that it can be done w/out doing what Tom and I were talking about, but us aircraft mechanics know that it simply makes the job a bit easier. Nothing to get anal about though, I'm sure.

[Petrograde]

Thanks Billy! I now have a pretty good idea of what pinion angle is now. :up:

Yeah,.. I'd be suprised if the boss ok'ed it... I guess it's worth asking.

Hey Marty,.. Like Billy and I were taliking about ^^^ heat the arms, freeze the bushings,.. even your freezer in the kitchen will work. I don't know about using the oven,.. I'm not going to,.. I'll get a heat gun from Harbor Freight if I have to.

Tom

[BillyGman]

I've used the oven for various car parts. but then again I don't have a hysterical woman living w/me who would flip out about me using the oven for car parts either. Atleast w/the oven you have total control of exactly what temperature the metal in question will reach. You don't have that comtrol w/a heat gun.

But Tom, let's not mislead anyone here into thinking that you would have to use the oven or the freezer for the installation of MAC, and Zack's product, because that isn't neccessarily true.

[Petrograde]

But Tom, let's not mislead anyone here into thinking that you would have to use the oven or the freezer for the installation of MAC, and Zack's product, because that isn't neccessarily true.

:lol: I guess I'm a creature of habit. I've used that method for pushing bushings and bearings of over 10 years. You are absolutely correct in saying that you don't have to do that. And,... you don't have to do both. just freezing them would make it a little easier. IMHO

I personally wouldn't use an oven I cook food in to heat parts. I have nothing scientific to back me up on this; but I just don't like the idea of that.

Tom

[Zack]

Removing and installing the bushings are easy.
Open up the jaws of your vice and lay the control arm over it. Find a big socket that contacts the outer lip of the bushing. 2-3 good hits from a 5 lb. sledge and its out. Repeat for install. Its a no-brainer.
Its easy and will be outlined in the instructions provided.
Dont sweat it :up:

[BillyGman]

again, i don't want to give anyone here the impression that the bushings in question cannot be installed w/out heating the control arms or freezing the bushings, but to respond to your last reply Tom, I guess you can call me a renegade, because I've actually used my oven in the past to bake a special hi-temperature paint on the headers from my 73 Vette at 450 degrees (F.). (and BTW, it didn't even smell up the house either).

But just as a side note, heat will always temporarily expand metal more than freezing will contract the mating metal part in question.

But I guess that we really shouldn't hog up Zack and MAC's thread w/all of this stuff since we're getting off-topic here, and like Zack has implied, it's nothing that anyone really needs to worry about anyway. :cool:

[Petrograde]

But I guess that we really shouldn't hog up Zack and MAC's thread w/all of this stuff since we're getting off-topic here, and like Zack has implied, it's nothing that anyone really needs to worry about anyway. :cool:

True, True....

Thanks again Zack & Mac for putting this all together for us! :up: :rock:

I can't wait! :D I'm sure your directions will be top notch.

Tom

[BillyGman]

Ditto......

[Logan]

Indeed, please keep this thread on-topic. Feel free to start your own thread in the garage..

[MERCMAN]

Congrats to Mac-N-Zack enterprises, now patent the design(call Marty) Hire Todd for PR, sell it to KB and retire to Florida and bug the ****z out of DR for the rest of his natural life! :lol:

[Fourth Horseman]

Wow, I'm impressed. I think these new arms will be the perfect addition to the Addco rear sway bar from Dennis. Nice work, guys. I can't wait to get my set!
:up:

[merc]

Sign me up :bows:

[ModMech]

First, since these new pieces are much stiffer than the flimsy factory pieces I'm wondering where the stresses generated by acceleration and conering are now being transmitted to. I imagine more loading is going to the frame and axle control arm mounting points than before. The frame mounting point for the upper control arm looks very beefy and appears to have a good weld, but it is now being loaded in a different manner.

Chris

Exactly as you thought, the mounting points. This is a COMMON failure point for the '98 up CVPIs. A few Panther owners have torn theirs completely off the frame. Ford sells a repair kit for these mounts, but they are really only flat stock welded to the bracket and frame.

[TooManyFords]

Mac and Zack, the creation of stronger 4-link bars is something that our MM's obviously need when moving up the performance pyramid. It has been stated that the pinion angle has been changed in the rear, but so far no scientific data to back it up. I'm not saying you don't have any, just that it has not been presented.

Here's a link on a well written article by experts on this subject:

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/91758/

Before I purchase these, I would like to know the following:

1. In doing your pinion angle change, what were the factory specs

2. After installation, what were the different angles and how did you measure them?

I want to be sure that the recommended 1-2½ degree pinion angle has been maintained (negative degrees sitting still). I would also want to insure that all u-joints do not exceed 1-3 degrees. Is this so?

Thanks in advance.

John

[BillyGman]

It has been stated that the pinion angle has been changed in the rear, but so far no scientific data to back it up. I'm not saying you don't have any, just that it has not been presented.

John, perhaps I've missed something in this thread. if that is the case, then please correct me. But I was the one who was speaking of pinion angle change, and I was refering to how it changes TEMPORARILY while the drivetrain is under load DURING a hard launch off the starting line at a race.

I was NOT saying that these control arms change the pinion angle. that's set during the manufacturing process of the drivetrain itself. Furthermore, the link that you've provided shows an article that simply backs up what I was saying about pinion angle being MOMENTARILY altered under torque.

If anything, hi-perf hardware that's added to the rear suspension will prevent atleast some of this momentary pinion angle change during hard acceleration. It will NOT change it.

[TooManyFords]

Billy, it wasn't you that said it, it was Zack:



We built the lower arm 1/8" longer than stock to improve the pinion angle.
You should see about 2 degrees of improvement.

My concerns are in the last sentence. Improved over what? That's why I wanted to know the base angles on a stock marauder and how/why the change.

Cheers!

john

[BillyGman]

oh, I see what you're talking about now. I understand the reason for your question. Thanks for the correction on that John. :)

[valleyman]

Zack - you have mail

[darebren]

could you post the parts in the MM Store so we can shop at a later date without having to search for this thread?

[Warpath]

...First, since these new pieces are much stiffer than the flimsy factory pieces I'm wondering where the stresses generated by acceleration and conering are now being transmitted to. I imagine more loading is going to the frame and axle control arm mounting points than before. The frame mounting point for the upper control arm looks very beefy and appears to have a good weld, but it is now being loaded in a different manner.

Now don't throw me out for being too geeky here, but would it be worthwhile to place stress strain gauges on the frame and axle control arm mounting points on a stock car and a modified car to see how the stress is being transmitted differently, if at all? I am just concerned that since the OEM control arms were a weak link before, what is the new weak link? ...

You may be right. The arm are springs. The OE arms, being softer, may absorb more energy and transmit lower loads into the frame than the stiffer arms. My suspicion is that the stresses go up. However, you won't know for sure unless you strain gauge the frame and axle. Feel free to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if the costs get into the 5 figure range.

I mentioned I would look for the rear UCA part number for limos. I had luck and found it. The MM rear UCA part number is 3W1Z-5500-BA (or maybe AA). The limo rear UCA part number is 3W1Z-5500-CA. I happened to find out the front UCAs are the same for limo and MM. The front LCAs for MMs are 5W1Z-3078-AA and 5W1Z-3079-AA. The front LCAs for limos are 4W1Z-3078-BA and 4W1Z-3079-BA. I didn't look at the rear LCAs or Watts link.

Zack and Mac - I'm not trying to take away business. I'm just informing everyone of their options.

[MI2QWK4U]

You may be right. The arm are springs. The OE arms, being softer, may absorb more energy and transmit lower loads into the frame than the stiffer arms. My suspicion is that the stresses go up. However, you won't know for sure unless you strain gauge the frame and axle. Feel free to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if the costs get into the 5 figure range.

I mentioned I would look for the rear UCA part number for limos. I had luck and found it. The MM rear UCA part number is 3W1Z-5500-BA (or maybe AA). The limo rear UCA part number is 3W1Z-5500-CA. I happened to find out the front UCAs are the same for limo and MM. The front LCAs for MMs are 5W1Z-3078-AA and 5W1Z-3079-AA. The front LCAs for limos are 4W1Z-3078-BA and 4W1Z-3079-BA. I didn't look at the rear LCAs or Watts link.

Zack and Mac - I'm not trying to take away business. I'm just informing everyone of their options.

Joe, Can you check and see what the parts numbers for the upper and lower control arms for the Crown Vic are? I am curious to know if the UCA and LCA are interchangable between the Vic and Marauder. If they are, then there is a well known company that markets aftermarket control arms in a kit for the Crown Vic, and they include the Bushings in the kit. I agree that it is nice to have choices and options when looking at parts. I am also interested in the engineering behind stuff like this.

[Logan]

You may be right. The arm are springs. The OE arms, being softer, may absorb more energy and transmit lower loads into the frame than the stiffer arms. My suspicion is that the stresses go up. However, you won't know for sure unless you strain gauge the frame and axle.
You're joking right? This whole statement has me wondering if I can have some of that funny stuff you be smoking... :pimp:

[BillyGman]

I'm just gonna throw something out here to serve as food for thought:

You guys are talking about the possibility of using the rear control arms out of a limosine. Right? If I've understood that correctly, then let me point out that even though the Limo control arms are most likely beefier, that's obviously because they're designed for cars that routinely carry heavier loads (more people). But can we be sure that this neccessarily means that those Limo control arms would also be better for higher torque applications and sports car type driving, or that they would be better for the Marauder that's putting out more power than these control arms that Zack and MAC have had developed?

I wouldn't be quick to assume that they are. A car that routinely carries heavier loads doesn't neccessarily always have the same requirements as a car that has been modified to produce more torque and to go faster. So if I decide to spend my $$ for different control arms, I'd be more inclined to go w/what Zack and MAC are offereing here.

[CRUZTAKER]

You're joking right? This whole statement has me wondering if I can have some of that funny stuff you be smoking... :pimp:
Well I don't know too much about strain cornering loads and stress load guages...but I do know about :rasta: ...and I can here by say that YOU Logan are far closer to El Mexico than warpath is!


Zack, I'm in...sold 93 shares of POS company stock today and will have cash in hand at 'the tune' on April 3rd.

[kurly]

This is what you get in your box... :)

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=3017/1DSC01847.jpg

Excellent!

[kurly]

Wow, I'm impressed. I think these new arms will be the perfect addition to the Addco rear sway bar from Dennis. Nice work, guys. I can't wait to get my set!
:up:

I agree. Please put me on the list for a set. I already have the Addco so this will be a natural. :up:

[TAF]

After showing pics of these while meeting with the "consortium of minds" at Team Ford today...the consensus was these looked good, but the question did come up of the determining factor for changing the pinion angle...so...I'd be interested to know exactly how that was determined, and why?

Thanks in advance.

[Warpath]

You're joking right? This whole statement has me wondering if I can have some of that funny stuff you be smoking... :pimp:
No ganja, man. Just the straight poop. I've seen stress levels go up when stiffer bushings were used. However, in this case with changing arms, it may not be a significant. You'd have to measure them to know for sure though. Calculations usually don't take into account structural stiffness.

I applaud Mac and Zack on their hard work. I was wondering how long it would take someone to develop them. But, I'm just playing devil's advocate and I'm not trying to shoot down anyone's effort or ideas. Silver_'04 stated it best - strengthen the weakest link, and the next weakest link may break. I just want others to know changing parts may (emphasize may) lead to other unexpected failures.

BillyGman - The reason I mentioeed the limo UCAs is there was a statement that the OE arms are too flimsy and don't grasp the bushings over a large area. The limo UCAs are billet looking aluminum arms which are much wider and grasp the bushings nearly across their entire length. That is the only reason why I mentioned them. I couldn't tell you if they would work better than Mac's and Zack's. I just making it known they exist.

MI2QWK4U - Most of my luck finding this info was having free time today to look. Give me a few days and I'll see what I can find.

[SergntMac]

Man-oh-man, I can't believe the variety of notes posted here on this topic!

A long time ago, L/M predicted we (owners) were going to be "passionate" about our selection of "mods'." Yes...L.M predicted we would mod, and they said it first. However, L/M did not say "exactly" how fussy we were going to be about it all.

I have answers for y'all, every one of you. Correct answers too.

Give me a few more hours to sort it all out and answer up, before y'all send Zack and Mac's ideas to Hell.

Some of y'all earned real answers. Some of y'all be trippin...Stay tuned?

[MI2QWK4U]

Some of y'all be trippin...Stay tuned?


Hell yea.....expect no less! Wouldn't want to dissapoint you!

[BillyGman]

Lol............

[Petrograde]

Some of y'all earned real answers. Some of y'all be trippin...Stay tuned?

:lol: too funny Mac,.... I can see Zack has rubbed off on ya a bit. Next thing ya know you'll be talking about how 'stupid fast' you can run the 1320 in!


Tom :pimp:

[kurly]

Man-oh-man, I can't believe the variety of notes posted here on this topic!
Some of y'all earned real answers. Some of y'all be trippin...Stay tuned?

SergntMac,
I'm with you. I support Mac and Zack! :banana:

[MI2QWK4U]

Kurly,
No dissing intended here. But you all will admit that we have spent a lot of time redoing our marauders in ways the ford engineers have NEVER intended! While we think that our modifications look and seem sound, nonetheless, they are unproven and not engineered for our cars. The closest to an "engineered" mod for the marauder would be something like the Trilogy blower kit. That kit was entirely fabricated and designed on CAD provided by Ford itself. Now that engineering was primarily designed to map out the layout and under hood clearences and such for the kit, the effects of the kit on the car couldnt be determined, much the same way any major mod, like a vortech blower, custom brakes, springs, lowering the ride height, widening rims, using insanely wide tires, sway bars, and now control arms. None of these modifications were engineered into the car. I am just curious, along with others, as to how much research went into something that will effect my car's handling characteristics in the big scheme of things.

[jgc61sr2002]

That's why this site is the best. New ideas pop up every day. This great MOD was developed by our own Mac and Zack. You gentlemen are outstanding. :bows: Thanks :rock:

[kurly]

Kurly,
No dissing intended here. .

No Problem. Debate and diverse opinions are great. And, I respect everyone's thoughts, opinions, and expertise.

Please, I am not trying to be contrary here! I just know that Mac has been experiencing these problems for a while and has gone to a lot of effort to come up with a fix. I truly believe his heart is in the right place. Sometimes you have to trust your friends and take a chance. The parts look far superior compared to the stock units. This is not something that you can confirm on a dyno . . . So, I guess it is a judgement call for each of us.

In the same vane, I really like Dennis's proposed new fuel filter kit - seems logical to me.

There are so many goodies to choose from, due to our enthusiastic supporting vendors and members, that we remain delirious!!!

:coolman:

[SergntMac]

This is probably going to jump around a bit, and I apologize for that, but I'm trying to put things in a order of importance.

GUARANTEE: The Zack-Mac upper and lower control arms are designed exclusively for the 2003 and 2004 Mercury Marauder. Professional installation is recommended. We guarantee against defects in fit and workmanship for the life of the original component. Should a control arm fail, it will be replaced free of charge upon return of the failed part. The powdercoat finish is guaranteed against defect for 90 days after purchase. This guarantee is null and void if the OEM bushings are not used in the installation, or, the control arm kit is installed in a non-Marauder vehicle.

Furthermore, we guarantee your satisfaction. Should you not be completely satisfied with the kit, return the unused kit for a full refund, no questions asked. Once installed on your MM, we guarantee you'll enjoy the performance benefit. If you are not completely satisfied, return the full kit within 90 days of purchase for a refund subject to 25 percent restocking fee. This guarantee is null and void if the OEM bushings are not used in the installation, or, the control arm kit is installed in a non-Marauder vehicle.

NOTE: This is a racing component intended for off-street applications. Use at your own risk. We assume no liability what so ever for improper, or, unlawful use, or, incorrect installation. Furthermore, we make no guarantee for lateral effect on other suspension components, or, systems. Properly installed, the control arms do not make contact with any suspension component other than the OEM bushings.

Pinion angle: Under WOT, the OEM upper control arms compress, and the lower control arms stretch. This movement leads to flexing and twisting in the rear end assembly, and as you can see in the pics ^ there, the control arms can "walk" side to side on the bushings. The aftermarket offers adjustable UCAs for other cars, but nothing for the MM. We were not comfortable with an adjustable UCA due to fuel tank and exhaust system clearance. Our design removes the compression and stretching of the arms, as well as the lateral walking. This minimizes power sapping flex, and twist, and provides consistent direction in your traction path.

Every RWD car has pinion angle, and it works the same way on all RWD designs. Our lower control arms are 1/8" longer than the OEM control arms which changes the OEM pinion angle reacting to WOT. How much this 1/8" extinsion changes the pinion angle has not been calculated. We did not measure the OEM pinion angle before the install, nor will we measure it now. Besides, it would have been an innacurate measurement anyway, my LCAs are already stretching out of spec.

If you are interested in this data, or, other details of the construction (questions we have from e-mail) purchase a kit and inspect them up close and personal, perhaps do the math? If you're not happy with our kit, see the above GUARANTEE. We think this is a fair offer. BTW, all measurements were taken from new replacement parts, not worn arms.

The control arms are not load bearing in the MM design nor are the springs. They should drop out, or, come out with a tug while the car is on the ground, if you could access the bolts with the tire on. While installing the prototypes on my MM, we used a floor jack at the correct frame location to jack up the car and remove the tire. Once the cross bolts were removed, the control arms fell to the ground. Of course, we did one at a time, but the control arm is clearly not load bearing.

Comparasion to the 98-02 CV/PI rear suspension isn't a good idea. The MM has a new frame with reinforcements in place for control arms, and other suspension components have been relocated as well. DO NOT use this kit on any vehicle other than the 2003/2004 Marauder. Probably won't fit anyway.

In May of 2003, I met Steve Babcock for the first time at the Trilogy Open House. I asked Steve specifically where our suspension components came from, development and design, or, the parts bin. He named the "stretch limo" parts bin as the source. I do not expect part numbers to match, or, cross referrence anymore, seems most MM part numbers have become unique to the MM. Case in point: I purchased new shocks for my MM, and ordered 3W3Z-18124-AA fronts and 3W3Z-18125-AA rears. On inspecting the shocks, I find bar code lables stating 3W3D-18045-AC fronts and 3W3D-18080-AD rear. My factory shocks have the same lables in place. My investigation of these part numbers through FordParts.com said they do not exist. Go figure...

Well, sorry for the long post, I'm just trying to explain what we have been going through for months now. Our advisor on ths project is Mike Lopex, a professional race car builder. Many of you have been to his shop in Chicago Ridge for a dyno tune, and you should know he's serious about going fast. This man drives 200 miles an hour for a living, his skill is unquestionable in my book.

I've done my best to not flame, or, call anyone out. I appreciate all questions and respect your comments. I'm not being flip in reply, y'all are welcome to discuss your thoughts. if I didn't address your concerns specifically, please ask again?

Zack and I are not getting rich here, we decided to mod our MMs and argued if we should share this 411 or not. Loyalty to our friends here won out, it was a brief discussion. No one looked at this before, and I am sure now that we have, bigger and better will be announced someday, with a bigger price tag too. We did what we could to keep this effective and inexpensive, a high "bang for the buck." I think we did well, if I can say so myself.

Samples of our kit are in likewise loyal hands, I'm waiting to hear their opinions. IMHO, this is exactly what the MM rear suspension needs to be competitive and safe. We're 2% here, driving and modding our MMs like we want. If this mod isn't for you, please don't buy a kit.

BTW, last night, Mike said he has an idea for the Watts link, anyone seriously interested?

[greyghost]

Well, I haven't ordered them as I had planned on making my own but, I want to commend Mac and Zack for their efforts. If I didn't have all the equipment at my disposal I would be ordering their CAs now.

You guys did a great job.

Anyone that thinks the factory engineers have all the answers and design the best equipment are living in utopia. In fact they miss the mark a lot. The pinion angle is something I am use to dealing with as I use to help my son set up his rock crawling differentials and we did everything. Shortened tubes and axles, went from low pinion to high pinion, drive shafts with CV joints instead of universals it was amazing. You could measure the angles all you wanted but you had to put them in the car and test them to make sure they were going to live. I think M&Z have done their homework and have a superior product.

I hope other members research other mods for our beloved Marauders and we get products that are as great as the M&Z Control Arms.


God Bless you guys

[jspradii]

Wats Link? Yes, sir, I for one would be quite interested. Thanks guys!:beer:

[TooManyFords]

Pinion angle: Under WOT, the OEM upper control arms compress, and the lower control arms stretch. This movement leads to flexing and twisting in the rear end assembly, and as you can see in the pics ^ there, the control arms can "walk" side to side on the bushings. The aftermarket offers adjustable UCAs for other cars, but nothing for the MM. We were not comfortable with an adjustable UCA due to fuel tank and exhaust system clearance. Our design removes the compression and stretching of the arms, as well as the lateral walking. This minimizes power sapping flex, and twist, and provides consistent direction in your traction path.
I think you have that backwards Mac. Under WOT, the the pinion wants to move upwards thus trying to stretch the UCA and compress the LCA. If anything, you might have wanted to shorten the UCA rather than stretch the LCA if contacting the fuel tank was a concern.



Every RWD car has pinion angle, and it works the same way on all RWD designs. Our lower control arms are 1/8" longer than the OEM control arms which changes the OEM pinion angle reacting to WOT. How much this 1/8" extinsion changes the pinion angle has not been calculated. We did not measure the OEM pinion angle before the install, nor will we measure it now. Besides, it would have been an innacurate measurement anyway, my LCAs are already stretching out of spec.
I know you're going to hate me for this but I have to get on a soapbox...

< soapbox >
You measured your LCA's and found they had stretched?!? I'm sorry, I find that hard to believe. I would find it easier to believe that they were out of spec before being installed. Be that as it may, it is the rest of the paragraph that raises a serious red flag.

To get the most power to the ground, or "plant it" in racing terms, is achieved by having the straightest possible line from the crankshaft through the pinion to the axle. I find it highly subjective that without proper before and after measurments that you are actually doing the MM community at large a service. What is more probable is that you might "luck into" proper operating specifications to achieve your worthwhile goals.

Unfortunately, I do not subscribe to this method of engineering. I'll have mine on the rack this afternoon to do "real world" measurements to see if your modifications have merit or not. I do this because there are so many MM owners that line up at the doors for modifications because of who is recommending them. Nevermind whether or not the modification is really doing anything at all. It becomes an issue when a modification is actually harmful or will cause premature failure in other components.

Now, I am NOT saying that is the case here but by your own admission there has been no calculated measurements to prove either way that this is a safe modification. Worst case scenario is that you have got the pinion angle out of the 1-3 degree range and a u-joint lets loose during a "spirited romp" and then the drive shaft falls out at 100+ MPH. Everyone should please take a moment and put a mental image of this front and center, cause that's what we're talking about.

< /soapbox >

Ok, that's enough for everyone to chew on for a while. Let me state for the record that these are my own opinions and are grounded in facts. Everyone should weigh these facts and make their own educated decisions.

Further, I fully encourage you and Zack to change your stance on your engineering philosophy and do the necessary angle checking and report back to everyone. Please, for the safety of all MM owners considering this, do your homework.

Thank you.

John

[Logan]

Why is it, every time someone does something GOOD, there are a bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to chew & spit on the solution?

[TooManyFords]

Why is it, every time someone does something GOOD, there are a bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to chew & spit on the solution?
Logan, I think replacing the control arms is a great solution for traction. But, prove to me that is the "correct" solution is all I am asking for. Look how you felt about the Eibach springs and tell me this is any different.

Food for thought...

john

[MERCMAN]

Why is it, every time someone does something GOOD, there are a bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to chew & spit on the solution?


Perhaps because this is a bunch of free-thinking individualists who like to ask questions rather than blindly follow. I think Mac and Zack might appreciate the valid comments, as I am sure they have worked hard on this mod and take great pride in showing that this is not a fly-by-night product. The "chewing and spitting" is all part of the approval process of our members, as for me, I appreciate those who ask the technical questions that I am too dumb to think of. Thanks to all who have posted and thanks to Mac and Zack for their patience :up:

[greyghost]

Wow! It always happens this way.

"The Doers are stuck being the Doers because the Non-Doers are going to let them."

And they're going to ask 20,000 questions. Let those that have a zillion questions look up their own answers.

If you don't get the answers that you want don't buy it. Someone else will. Most businesses in the Hi Performance aftermarket industry do not have sufficient capital to validate their findings. They usually use the trial and error method which means, try this and if it breaks try something stronger or heavier. They usually run their products sufficiently to ensure that it will stand up and work in the designed environment. The also all have the warranty that it is built for racing/offroad use and they are not responsible. I know that I would do that because of the litigious society that we live in. Everyone wants the sure thing and an airtight guarentee before they buy anything. I know there will be a legal type come along shortly and will say that I am all messed up and they companies should have to guarentee their products or bare the resposiblity for their product. That is why new technology is dead in the USA. Oh, maybe all the weld joints need to be QAed, I mean if one of them failed it would mean possibly further damage. Sheeeh!!!

Again, Thanks to M&Z for the product, doing the research that it works, employing a practical expert in frame modifications and constuction, and having a great finish and looks

[ModMech]

Comparasion to the 98-02 CV/PI rear suspension isn't a good idea. The MM has a new frame with reinforcements in place for control arms, and other suspension components have been relocated as well. DO NOT use this kit on any vehicle other than the 2003/2004 Marauder. Probably won't fit anyway.

Since the MM uses the same basic REAR suspension as used beginning in 1998 on ALL "Panthers", I respectfully and completely disagree. While the FRONT suspension was totally redesigned for 2003, the changes to the rear were relatively minor and revolved around shock location more than anything else.

I am NOT insinuating these beeifer CAs will CAUSE problems, only that the "next weakest link", is indeed the mounts. This is proven, and Ford even has a reapir for it. Maybe Ford's running changes in the mount welds, locations, and material thickness are enough, maybe not. I would suggest it is better to PREVENT the mounts comming loose, than to repair them after they are torn out.

[BillyGman]

I have mixed feelings about TooManyFords questions/comments. I'm not even going to get into it here about what I agree w/him on out of respect for MAC and Zack who have brought us this product. And because I do think that Greyghost has a good point about aftermarket parts in general.

I guess the main thing is, if any of us are not confident that MAC and Zack has done their homework on this, then we simply do not have to buy their product, or perhaps it would be better if we feel that we must question them, to write them a PM or an e-mail about it. But I will comment on TooManyFord's opinion about pinion angle effecting u-joints, and possibly causing a catastrophy. I can't say that I agree w/his viewpoint on that. "Why" you say? Because look at the extreme angles that many pick-up trucks put the u-joints at. Especially those that are raised up by lift kits. And many of the u-joints on trucks are put at much more of an angle than TooManyFords is talking about, and they hold up pretty good w/out a catastrophy.

Yes, u-joint life will be decreased by an extreme angle caused by a bnig lift kit installed in a truck, but at such a small angle change as these control arms would create, that is NOT a concern.

In conclusion, I think it's good for us to come together to discuss the potential (or lack thereof) of a certain modification to our cars. That's primarily what this board is for the way I see it. However, now that we've all been the talking heads concerning this product, and have given MAC, and Zack adequate opportunity to answer some questions, I think that we should just decide for ourselves weather or not to purchase these parts brought to us by our friends and fellow MM owners, MAC, and ZacK, and let our readers of this post do the same.

[greyghost]

Old threads really do have some interesting Info.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3884

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1625

[TooManyFords]

TooManyFord's opinion about pinion angle effecting u-joints, and possibly causing a catastrophy. I can't say that I agree w/his viewpoint on that. "Why" you say? Because look at the extreme angles that many pick-up trucks put the u-joints at. Especially those that are raised up by lift kits. And many of the u-joints on trucks are put at much more of an angle than TooManyFords is talking about, and they hold up pretty good w/out a catastrophy.

Yes, u-joint life will be decreased by an extreme angle caused by a bnig lift kit installed in a truck, but at such a small angle change as these control arms would create, that is NOT a concern.Nothing like a good spirited debate. I knew someone would bring this up. First, we're dealing with apples and oranges here. When dealing with trucks with moderate lifts, you don't see a normal cardan u-joint, you see what is called a double cardan or CV joint.

Picture here: http://www.spicerdriveshaft.com/cardan/cardan-double.html

This is built to the standards that require extreme angles between an output shaft and and the drive line. Since the MM doesn't employ such a joint, we're back to basics

I stand by my request to see facts and figures on this "mod".

John

[BillyGman]

John,your request is ofcourse your perogative. I have no problem w/you, nor have I ever had one. As far as the different type of u-joints that you've mentioned, that's an interesting point, but the very design of even your basic u-joint enables it to have a pivoting action on more than one plane at various angles. So by it's basic design it is NOT required to be at a perfectly flat or straight angle for durability, and endurance.

And that's why the angle in question would be a concern ONLY if it were extreme such as in trucks w/a lot of lift. But NOT in such a small change as any control arm would cause. So what I'm saying is you're really getting off-topic w/this ehole point of u-joint durability because that just will not be an issue w/these. I believe that you're over analyzing that part of your previous point. No offense to you my friend.

[TooManyFords]

None taken Billy. :)

However, go back to my original post on this topic and reference the articles about u-joints and the effective angles that should not be exceeded. I'm not making this stuff up, my friend.

The images I am putting in front of everyone are purely for safety's sake. I think Mac and Zack are wonderful people and would do -anything- for either one of them. But the kinds of u-joint failures we're talking about, -correction- POTENTIALLY talking about (nothing has been proven yet) is that over time a u-joint is more prone to failure if the correct angles are not maintained. On a Pinto, this would not be an issue but we're not driving Pintos!

We've got a car that is 2 tons of American steel (I can see the Canadians chiming in!) that we're pushing with boat loads more torque and hp than from the factory, and now we add a changed pinion angle to the mix. I'm telling you, this requires serious consideration and proof that this change is within tolerances and is SAFE.

I don't think I can make this point any clearer, so this will be my last input on the subject. It's every MM for themselves. :)

John

[BillyGman]

Just keep in mind John that anything that you do to increase HP as well wil put more strain on a u-joint, and I'm sure more strain than a mere 1 or 2 degrees of pinion angle will cause. But thanks for your thought-provoking replies.

[FordNut]

Old threads really do have some interesting Info.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3884

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1625

And how about this one... I've been waiting a year for these control arms!

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1943

[Petrograde]

BTW, last night, Mike said he has an idea for the Watts link, anyone seriously interested?

YES! If you guys can keep the price in the same ballpark as the CA's.

Thanks! :up:

Tom

[Zack]

I want to update everyone on our production schedule of control arms.
the first run of 10 sets have been sold.
This is a list of members who will receive these:
-Mark Keiser
-William Schuver
-Thomas Hickok
-James Spradling
-Big Joe P.
-Scott March
-James Karp
-Brian Sipe
-Dennis Reinhart
-Kenneth Hahus

Our fabricator will have enough material to build 30 sets by Friday.
He will build the amount of bars in which I have been paid for.
If I have your personal check or have received PayPal from you by Friday, you will be in the second run. The bars will go to powdercoating by Monday and our Powdercoater is telling us he is behind 2 weeks. This is my most up to date info, I hope it gives you a good idea when I can ship them to you.

Thanks again to the believers here.
I appreciate it.

[Murader03]

Zack: You got mail!

[Zack]

Just giving everyone an update here.
I shipped 14 sets today, here are the lucky recipients:

- Mark Keiser
- William Schuver
- Thomas Hickok
- James W Spradling
- Scott March
- James Karp
- Brian Sipe
- Dennis Reinhart (2 sets)
- Kenneth Hahus
- Martin Ochs
- Russell Pryor

Big Joe P, Ill have yours at the chicken fest.

Thanks to all, a second run is in the making as we speak!

[Petrograde]

woo hoo! I guess I know what I'll be doing next weekend!!!!!!

Thanks man!!! :up:

Tom

[TripleTransAm]

Just keep in mind John that anything that you do to increase HP as well wil put more strain on a u-joint, and I'm sure more strain than a mere 1 or 2 degrees of pinion angle will cause. But thanks for your thought-provoking replies.


I can't volunteer any opinion on the product being discussed, but I do have to address BillyGman's opinion on the sensitivity of pinion angle.

As an F-body owner, I can tell you that the 1-2 degrees of pinion angle change can cause a GREAT deal of grief, if not less than that many degrees. My GTA has, with age, settled on its original springs such that it now sits at the low end of factory tolerances... perhaps even at the high end of what one would have considered being equipped with lowering springs. The resulting change in pinion angle solely due to that small quantity of height change has put a greater load on the torque arm element (essentially, a 'ladder' bar that ties the diff in two points to a single point at the tranny tail end) to the point that the bolts and/or bolt holes have stretched ever so slightly, changing the pinion angle ever so slightly.

The result is an occasional vibration from the rear, very similar to a driveshaft out of balance. It's a common malady for these old cars, especially when artificially lowered unlike my car (which was naturally lowered), and the cure is to opt for a new torque arm or ideally an adjustable unit that can return the driveline to its original angles (or range of angles).

Perhaps it's a function of overall driveshaft length as well, so I don't know what kind of pinion angle change would result in a driveline issue for a car like the MM. But it is something that I feel is worth considering.

And again, I re-iterate that this is meant in no way to detract from the quality of the product being discussed in this thread, nor imply that it may negatively or positively affect the current factory chosen pinion angle. It is solely intended to address the above quote.

[gonzo50]

I can't volunteer any opinion on the product being discussed, but I do have to address BillyGman's opinion on the sensitivity of pinion angle.

As an F-body owner, I can tell you that the 1-2 degrees of pinion angle change can cause a GREAT deal of grief, if not less than that many degrees. My GTA has, with age, settled on its original springs such that it now sits at the low end of factory tolerances...
The resulting change in pinion angle solely due to that small quantity of height change has put a greater load on the torque arm element (essentially, a 'ladder' bar that ties the diff in two points to a single point at the tranny tail end) to the point that the bolts and/or bolt holes have stretched ever so slightly, changing the pinion angle ever so slightly.

The result is an occasional vibration from the rear, very similar to a driveshaft out of balance.
Does anyone know the pinion angle of the stock Marauder, and the pinion angle of the 2 degrees difference specified here ? :confused:

[FordNut]

Does anyone know the pinion angle of the stock Marauder, and the pinion angle of the 2 degrees difference specified here ? :confused:
No, and nobody has yet posted exactly how many degrees difference the 1/8" longer arms will make. The difference is easy enough to figure out with 3 measurements. All center-to-center measurements, OEM original arm length, distance from upper to lower arm mount on rear end, and distance from upper mount on rear end to lower mount on frame. I'm out of town and won't have a chance to measure for a week or so, but if anybody wants to measure, it's simple trig. The absolute angle, both OEM and modified, is a bit more difficult to determine.

[Petrograde]

it's simple trig.

:lol: I never found trig simple!

Tom

[TooManyFords]

Does anyone know the pinion angle of the stock Marauder, and the pinion angle of the 2 degrees difference specified here ? :confused:
Maybe Mac or Zack will present their figures. Afterall, it is their mod! As for the second part of your question, it will be 2 more degrees than the answer of the first question.

Cheers

John

[SergntMac]

Nevermind...

[SergntMac]

Maybe Mac or Zack will present their figures. John
Nope. Not going on that trip with you, John.

Like I said a while back here, we didn't collect the OEM specs.

My OEM control arms were already pulled and pushed out of spec, so, those numbers don't mean dick anyway.

You say you don't believe me, John, and I say I don't care. Who are you to demand this 411 anyway? What are your credentials to ask?

Y'all...Buy them, try them. If you don't like their look and feel in your hands, return 'em for a full refund. If y'all install 'em and drive on 'em and still don't like them, we promise an "adjusted" refund within 90 days of purchase.

This is a solid "satisfaction" guarantee, and better than any guarantee you have been promised by anyone, including L/M until now.

John...What guarantee do you offer to those who subscribe to your train of thought? Can you promise that they will not be pleased, and underwrite that?

[Silver_04]

You say you don't believe me, John, and I say I don't care. Who are you to demand this 411 anyway? What are your credentials to ask?

With all due respect, the credentials and reason for the 411 requests are parked in most of our garages and/or driveways. We have a car we like to mod and some of us, like me for example, like to have all of the information we can possibly get before making a change to our vehicles. I am also not as familiar with suspension systems as I am interior systems so I look to the groups offering changes to the suspension to provide info.

With the products I work on, one small change can have consequences never thought of later on down the line and I just develop static hardware, not dynamic suspension systems. And as a supplier we expect our customers to come to us with questions regarding changes to the product and how they are going to impact overall system performance.

I wish you guys the best of luck and hope your UCA's and LCA's do well, but I sure wish that when people ask for info it was understood that we are just looking for info and not attacking anyone’s initiative to develop a product to enhance the MM. We are all impassioned owners and we all want what is best for our rides.

Below I have pasted a link to a free body diagram that I have created of the rear axle, wheel and control arms. I did this because Mac and Zack have sparked my curiosity and I believe they are on to something but I want to understand it more. If anyone is interested let’s discuss it, if not, well I can put my machine design book back on the shelf.

Linky (http://home.earthlink.net/~ctt9/images/ConrolArm_FBD.jpg)

Remember-this is truly a crude model and if we want to investigate this particular model further we’ll only be scratching the surface. If we want to deep dive more after this analysis we can. I’ll do what I can to help out.

Chris

[FordNut]

As long as we're talking about changing the pinion angle, consider that lowering the rear suspension also changes the pinion angle. It's a little more difficult to determine how much this changes the angle, but with an unequal-length suspension changes in height will affect the rotation of the rear end. Does it change in the same direction as the longer lower arms or opposite direction, thereby cancelling out the change?

[TAF]

Mac, I don't think there is any reason to get defensive. And, although I appreciate the money-back guarantee...I'd just like to know the specifics in the reasoning for the change of length. When I spoke with the brain-trust at Team Ford (which I know you had the opportunity to meet)...they were concerned with any change in pinion angle. With that being said...I know you guys didn't create this in a vacuum, you had an expert in fast cars' help...I'd just like to know why they are not just a better, stronger, more attractive direct replacement.

EDIT:

As long as we're talking about changing the pinion angle, consider that lowering the rear suspension also changes the pinion angle. It's a little more difficult to determine how much this changes the angle, but with an unequal-length suspension changes in height will affect the rotation of the rear end. Does it change in the same direction as the longer lower arms or opposite direction, thereby cancelling out the change?
Exactly ^^^...and considering my rear has been lowered 3/4" already, I'd just like to understand the reason behind any other changes in the angle.

[TooManyFords]

Nope. Not going on that trip with you, John.

Like I said a while back here, we didn't collect the OEM specs.
Sounds like you already have, mac.



My OEM control arms were already pulled and pushed out of spec, so, those numbers don't mean dick anyway.
I took a peek at all the pictures you posted, and clearly see specifications writting in black sharpie on the factory ford UCA and LCA's Were those your pushed and pulled units? They looked brand new to me. Seems to me since this is a "30 minute" swap that you could have put the NEW ones on, done the proper measuments and reported the results. Sadly, that has not happened.



You say you don't believe me, John, and I say I don't care. Who are you to demand this 411 anyway? What are your credentials to ask?
My credentials?!? MY CREDENTIALS?? Are you serious?!?! I'm a mechanically educated consumer, thats who! Check out http://john.frieltek.com/toomanyfords and look at the cars I've restored and raced. Not one, but TWO factory "R" Code Ford muslecars, done more axle swaps than I can count and to top it all off, I have the knowledge and gumption to question everything I read on the net. I don't blindly follow just cause someone whips out a fancy part. I question the "411" when I want to know why someone did what they did!

I supported this mod as something that was clearly the right idea, but I cried foul when you revealed that you didn't do your homework before making critical design changes.


Y'all...Buy them, try them. If you don't like their look and feel in your hands, return 'em for a full refund. If y'all install 'em and drive on 'em and still don't like them, we promise an "adjusted" refund within 90 days of purchase.

That would be fine if I was going to WEAR them, but you're asking everyone to trust their cars and their lives based on an arogant decision to not go back and check the specs. And for this I get the right to return them?


John...What guarantee do you offer to those who subscribe to your train of thought? Can you promise that they will not be pleased, and underwrite that?
I'm not the one selling anything mac, I'm the one asking the questions. It is still clear from reading this thread that the questions need answering.

I have always tried to give this mod the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't the one that copped [sic] the attitude when someone asked the right questions.

The good news is that there is a simple solution and you should be the first one to say, "that's a good idea." Put the new CA's in the picture on your car, do the measurements and report your findings! If you find they are within specs of the u-joints you are home free and you can proudly announce it to the group.

Please, don't let an ego or arogance get in the way. We all want to see you be successful with this. Make it your personal mission to prove me wrong and that your mod is correct. That's all I've ever asked for.

John

[SergntMac]

I really don't believe I just read all that crap...LOL!

It should be clear to y'all that this discussion has little to do with the control arms anymore, and that's sad. Y'all took something good for our Marauder and picked it apart, and to what end. Y'all made something else of this, turning control arm improvement into a life threatening issue is absurd. This is knee slapping folly now...LOL, thanks for the entertainment.

Anyone not comfortable with our product, or, our guarantee, is welcome to shop elsewhere. There are 10 or more sets of control arm out in the shipping lanes right now, with twice as many in production from orders placed. Once these owners install them and check in with us here, we'll see how well these control arms perform, and what concerns they raise. This is fair, yes?

The control arms come with a satisfaction guarantee, place an order and get a set in your hands. Evaluate them from there. Seems simple to me, and doing all that would have taken you less time than it took to write the posts you have left here.

Just not as much fun though, eh?

[TAF]

Uh...I'll ask again, I guess...


Why were they made longer? Why not just a direct replacement? There has to be some reason.

That's all I want to know.

[TooManyFords]

I got my trusty protractor and t-square out and crawled under my "slightly lowered" Marauder just now. The factory pinion angle is right at 3 degrees negative, right where I expected it to be. This is probably because Ford engineers knew where to put it for the maximum traction under hard acceleration.

This also means that adding 2 more degrees puts the u-joint "out of spec". In essence, under WOT with these new control arms, the driveshaft never reaches Zero degrees.

What everyone that has installed them is experiencing is better latteral control by virtue of the wider housing in contact with the rubber bushing, not because the pinion angle is now "optimized". If anything, this spells disaster for long-term durability of the u-joint running 99.99% of the time out of spec.

There.

John

[Zack]

The sad thing is, some people on this board will actually think you are right.

[Logan]

You've all made your positions clear. This thread is degrading into personal attacks.

To those of you who have a problem with the length of the control arms, take it OFFLINE to email with Sarge and Zack now. The continued ranting on the subject is counterproductive.

If you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em. No need to try and save the world.

Anything further on the control arm length or pinion angle will be removed if it doesn't provide new insight on the subject.

[TooManyFords]

Until today, nobody has bothered to do any measuring to put an informative post together. I've only taken it personally when someone -made- it personal. Myself, I was "person neutral" and only questioned the mathmatics of changing the driveline.

So, in the spirit of the request of Logan to only offer information that is informative to this, I offer the following links for information on what and how to set pinion angle. I guess this backs up my qualifications and opinions.

http://buickperformance.com/Pinion.htm
http://www.drivetrain.com/driveline_angle_problem.html
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/info/pinionangle.htm
http://www.iedls.com/ptsetup.html
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/chassis/engineangle.htm
http://www.rosslertrans.com/Tips/Pinon.htm
http://www.alternativeauto.com/waterbox/wb_archives/hook2.html (a vendor)

Everone else, do as Logan requests and make up your own minds. Me, I'll not buy them unless made to "factory" specs.

John

[Logan]

By increasing the LCR length, that has the effect of pointing the pinion at 1-2 degrees further lower to the ground at rest by pushing the lower mount backwards and rotating the axle ass'y ever so slightly. So even if it does go 3-4 degrees negative at rest equals 0 to -1 degree at WOT... Whoop dee doo...

I fail to see the issue.

[ModMech]

Comparasion to the 98-02 CV/PI rear suspension isn't a good idea. The MM has a new frame with reinforcements in place for control arms, and other suspension components have been relocated as well. DO NOT use this kit on any vehicle other than the 2003/2004 Marauder. Probably won't fit anyway.

After careful research, a Ford chassis engineer has assured me that "all '98 up Panther rear control arms are the same, bushings vary by application." That explains the various part numbers, and says that these parts are suitable for all '98 up Panthers.

[MERCMAN]

I have been watching this thread with great interest, Now I have a question.
I took a trip yesterday in the Black Beauty over some really twisty roads, I took corners as fast as I felt comfortable with and had no issues with handling. I will admit that I am probably not as aggressive as some on here, but I did feel quite a lot of G's going through the curves. Here are my questions, and please remember that I have little knowledge about mechanical or suspension issues.
#1. is this handling problem more evident in those cars that have added all the extra HP only? Until Mac posted this I had not heard about it. He said that he could not keep up with Barry at Hershey through the twisties. Now Mac has a KB, probably one of the most engineered MM's that there is. HP out the wazoo, so it has to be a handling issue. Barry responded that he had some right swing to the rear end as well, Barry's car is N/A but he has modded it for extra HP as well.
#2. Could this handling problem be due in part to having the aftermarket sway bar installed? Like I said, I am no engineer, but our cars were built so that all of the OEM suspension parts work in unison, could installing a better sway bar actually magnify any handling problems because the other OEM parts are not "tuned" to that particular mod?

I have no idea what the added torque does to the suspension, but if I can relate suspension to the engine, I know that having the chip reflashed, one should also get the cooler plugs and stat to make the engine work better.
Please know that I am not taking sides on this issue, I am just curious as a layman , I just drive the damn thing and I know there are much better minds than mine out there vis-a-vis modifications.

Is this just the tip of the iceberg as far as suspension modifications go? I noticed that watts links have been mentioned as well. How will this affect the rest of the suspension package? Since we have stages for engine mods that have been proven, perhaps we need the same for suspension upgrades. Mac and Zac have always been in the forefront in making the car a little bit better, whether in looks or performance and they always seem to be the ones putting their rides "on the line" so-to-speak for the rest of us. So before anyone says anything derogatory about the latest mods, remember it is their cars as well if anything isn't right.

I am going to sit back as usual and let the more learned ones discuss the merits of suspension upgrades, but I do have questions. Thanks for reading this, sorry about the length

[TAF]

You've all made your positions clear. This thread is degrading into personal attacks.

To those of you who have a problem with the length of the control arms, take it OFFLINE to email with Sarge and Zack now. The continued ranting on the subject is counterproductive.

If you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em. No need to try and save the world.

Anything further on the control arm length or pinion angle will be removed if it doesn't provide new insight on the subject.I frankly don't have a "position"...I just have a question. Why the change in length which changes pinion angle?

I understand:
Rolled steel vs. OEM, stamped, "Betty crocker" metal = Good
Larger contacts with bushings vs. OEM barely touches bushings = Good

I just want someone to tell me...

"Todd, when we looked at designing these...we decided to lengthen both the upper and lower arms. The reason for this was ___________ ." *fill in the blank with a plausible reason. I'm not saying it's wrong to make them longer, I just don't understand why the h e l l it's so d a m n difficult to answer the question. It's a simple question, which I've now asked for the 3rd ot 4th time.

Either the answer is known or it isn't.

[Zack]

"Todd, when we looked at designing these...we decided to lengthen both the upper and lower arms. The reason for this was ___________ ." *fill in the blank with a plausible reason. I'm not saying it's wrong to make them longer, I just don't understand why the h e l l it's so d a m n difficult to answer the question. It's a simple question, which I've now asked for the 3rd ot 4th time.

And this quote, no offense Todd, is exactly why were done responding.
Where on earth did you get the impression that the upper arms were longer?
Folks, in the 120 posts before this, you will find your answers.
And one more thing- we set out to have 2 sets of control arms made. One for me, and one for Mac. You know, making grills is one thing I can handle.
But this is a small business, believe it or not. The money Mac and I put down to get this ball in motion would have you in disbelief. Do you think I like spending hours in a shop after work finalizing details? Do you think I liked researching a company that sells boxes the exact size to fit the product?
Do you think I liked writing a detailed 'how-to' sheet? This is turning out to be more trouble than I imagined, and I still dont know why.
I can remember people talking about improved control arms since I bought the car.
Well, they're here and 18 people so far are excited about them. You know another well known fabricator of high performance parts is working on control arms for the Marauder right now, but there is one hitch. His kit will be fully adjustable, for the hard core racer. Yes they will work on stock applications, but you the customer will have to make all your adjustments.
And I guarantee they wont have a pointer on them telling you where to adjust to the stock specs.
We took all of the guess work out for you, a bolt in part.
Improved pinion angle is exactly what it means, just like buying a Reinhart chip improves your cars performance, but no one seems too interested on just what paramaters are changed inside the brain of your car, huh?
Skeptics are part of doing business, this I see. It is their right to ask questions, heckle, be jealous, whatever their vice is with us, we will have to deal with it.
Id like to see this thread close on a good note, enough with the nonsense, our tech line is closed for good.
If you want them, great.
If you dont, great.

[Big Joe P]

Having driven Zack's car today, and my own Kenny Brown car, around the same curve, same speed...... the difference is noticable. As with any mod, you're on your own. I took a brand new car to KB for him to mod. Bye-Bye warranty. No problems to date... knock on wood. A $20,000 mod VS a $400 one, a lot less anxiety. I'll try this kit and see what happens. It's not rocket science..... is it? I'm all for it, after driving it.

[TAF]

Zack...no offense back...but, I don't understand why there is still no answer to a simple question of why the arms (I guess you are saying only the lower arms...I apologize if I miss-understood that both the upper and lower are longer) are longer.

Pick one...or add your own...

A) In the design process, it was determined that the longer lenghth of the control arm would result in a more positive pinion angle. This allows the rearend to be at the most direct angle for strong, WOT launches.

B) Mike Lopez has found through his years of experiance with the 8.8 rearend, that adjusting pinion angle results in more force being supplied to the tires through a better angle of the axel.

C) Our supplier only had rolled steel that was yeah-big...so we had to make them this way.

The answer is not in the posts above...and then I am to guess there is no answer.

What's the problem with this question? Why were these not made to the stock size so this would not be a concern for folks? What's with all the "taboo" on these things?

[Petrograde]

Zack & Mac:

Thanks guys. I appreciate your efforts to bring us something we've been asking for. After I committed to buying the control arms. I did some of my own reading, learning,.. and following links.

And I'm still convinced I did the right thing by buying them. UPS.com tells me I'll have them on St. Paddy's Day! :D :banana2: I can't wait!

I'll be first in line for the Watts link upgrade. I hope you guys still plan on having them made!

Thanks again,

Tom

[FordNut]

And one more thing- we set out to have 2 sets of control arms made. One for me, and one for Mac.

And I appreciate the fact that you were generous enough to offer them to the rest of us.

[kurly]

Id like to see this thread close on a good note, enough with the nonsense, our tech line is closed for good.
If you want them, great.
If you dont, great.

Zack and Mac. I promise to get a set as soon as I finish paying off my Stage 1 stuff. :)

[greyghost]

I just want you to know that you and Zack are doing a great job. Don't let the doubters piss you off. I have been where you are and done that. Saw it coming way off.

A bit of suggestion. Do not respond to anything negative anymore. Just ignore it and eventually the naysayers will be quiet.

As Dalton said in "Roadhouse" "Be Nice" there are a lot of great folks on this list and I for one don't want to see you get pissed off and leave the list because of a few armchair racecar builders.

YaknowwhatImean??

I look forward to meeting you at Indy.

[stevengerard]

I took advantage of the Windy City group meeting today to see what these cars are all about. Needless to say I was greatly impressed, for a full-size family/business car it’s as utilitarian and fun as any of them. What I can offer is that it was my first time driving these cars; I drove one with the stock control arms and one with the new ones in question. A definite difference most noticeable to me right after breaking as I was diving into the apex of the turns.

[CRUZTAKER]

Just giving everyone an update here.
I shipped 14 sets today, here are the lucky recipients:

- Mark Keiser
- William Schuver
- Thomas Hickok
- James W Spradling
- Scott March
- James Karp
- Brian Sipe
- Dennis Reinhart (2 sets)
- Kenneth Hahus
- Martin Ochs
- Russell Pryor

Big Joe P, Ill have yours at the chicken fest.

Thanks to all, a second run is in the making as we speak!
I'm on that list right? I just didn't see my name...?;)

[BillyGman]

Ya know, about 5 or 6 pages ago in this thread, I was one of the first guys (if not THE first one) to bring up this whole "Pinion angle" thing. However I was saying something that I felt was possibly a positive thing about these new control arms.

But since then it has been blown waaaaay out of proportion. There's a lot of great members here, including the ones who've participated in this thread, but I just think that it's gotten a bit out of hand. No, I'm not trying to play moderator here, but I feel a bit responsible for starting this whole "pinion angle" thing in the first place even though I was mentioning it in an entirely different light than some of you have. And now I'm sorry that I've atleast been one of those who has even brought up this thing in the first place. This thing has simply taken on a life of it's own!!!!

As your fellow board member, please consider the following suggestion from me guys:

I'm not going to get into specifying names since that would be counterproductive to this thread, to this board, and to our members here. Furthermore I really don't want to be quick to take sides here either because there are a lot of guys in this thread that I like a lot......
this is the way I think is best to bring this whole debate to a rest already........

I think it's fine for people who are interested in these new control arms to pose questions, and to give ZACK, and Mac, an opportunity to answer those questions. But I think that all of us need to have a balance and exercise some tactfullness. If we posed a question (which was about 5 pages ago) to our friends MAC, and Zack, and both of them have answered the questions to the extent that they themselves chose to answer, then we should thank them for making the effort to offer some answers in this thread.

And if you still aren't satisfied w/the extent to which both of them have chosen to answer, then I think we should just let it go, and IF you MUST be more inquiring, then shoot Zack, or MAC a PM or an e-mail w/any further questions that you might have. That way you'll be giving them the choice as weather or not to respond, and it might indicate that you are after all genuinely interseted in their product rather than proving that you are right.

Otherwise, I don't beloeve it's fair to continue to call them both out by firing more and more intense questions about these things that they've already responded to. If you didn't like their response then I think that you should take your inquiries off the board via e-mail. That would be better online ettiquette IMO. I'm not saying that I neccessarily agree w/them nor that I disagree w/then either. To me none of all this is even worth it.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, nor put anyone on the defense or provoke them. It's merely a suggestion, and one that I hope that you'll seriously consider out of consideration for our board, and for our fellow members MAC, and Zack, as well as for our Moderators.

[UAW 588]

This is just a note to all the nay sayers. :fire: If it wasn't for people like Zack and Mac, going to their own expense and time to develop new products for our cars; this hobby would be boring. Well, what wasn't boring today was the two rides I went for today. First, was in Zack's Marauder and then Mac let me personally drive his Kenny Brown. :burnout: After losing my lunch we had at the Chicken Basket, I can tell you these guys have it all dialed in and right on the money. :rock: I just wish some people would open their eyes and see the light. If you don't like the product then don't buy it. And leave the people who do to experience it for themselves, and let them be the judge. Not the jury and executioner. :bs: This car is all about having fun and enjoying ones company. Zack and Mac you guys are top shelf in my book :beer: and I hope this little road hazard hasn't dampered your interest in improving all our cars. Just my big fat 2 cents.

[TooManyFords]

Well put Billy. There'e enough 411 for everyone to decide, K?

[TAF]

Whatever...here's my original question which was presented on page #2 I think of this thread...


After showing pics of these while meeting with the "consortium of minds" at Team Ford today...the consensus was these looked good, but the question did come up of the determining factor for changing the pinion angle...so...I'd be interested to know exactly how that was determined, and why?

Thanks in advance.If someone can find me the answer, I'd appreciate it. I'm not coming at Zack or Mac...it's just a simple question that has yet to be answered.

So...I'll ask one more time before this thread gets closed.

Why are the lower arms longer changing the pinion angle? Why were these not just a direct replacement?

For those of you that have a problem with this simple question being asked...I don't understand. I don't know the answer...it's not a "trick" question...I'm not trying to make someone stumble with the answer then baffle them with what I know about this...cause I don't...it's just a simple question that I'd like the answer to.

Thanks again in advance for the 5th time.

[BillyGman]

Todd, I was merely trying to avoid having this thread locked. I haven't even read this entire thread, because I had given up on it atleast 4 pages ago and didn't even look at it since then until today. I started to read the rest of it, but I didn't have the stomach for it. I heard enough. So there's some things I'm sure in here that I've missed, and that's just another reason why I didn't want to be quick to take sides here.

So weather you've been answered yet or not, I don't know. I just figured that if you aren't satisfied by now w/whatever what HAS been said in this thread so far, and it's gone 9 pages already, then I think it's a good thing for us to assume that it just isn't worth pursuing anymore because nothing good will come of it.

Again, I really mean no offence here pal, and IMO you weren't the only one in question either. Like I said, I'm trying not to take sides here. I'm just suggesting something that would be best for all IMO. I'm not even going to address specifics in this thread, because I gave up on it a long time ago. I'm simply speaking of ettiquette my friend.

You and I get along great, and I want to keep it that way. I don't want to lock horns w/you nor w/anyone else here. I just think that it's pretty sad if a moderator has to end up locking this thread cuz any of us. That shouldn't be neccessary, and it shouldn't come to that. This isn't a board made up of 15 yr olds.

No, I'm not saying you're like a 15 yr old, so please let's not even go there either. I'm speaking about ALL of us collectively as a group. That's all my friend. I'm looking at it from the entire board's perspective and also from a Moderator's veiwpoint since I used to be a MOD on another board myself. And IMO a MOD should NOT have to lock this thread because we cannot get along talking about cars.

It was merely a suggestion on my part. But what you do is up to you. Do what you will. I just ask that you consider what I've said. I haven't any direct argument w/you.

[chapel1]

I drove Mac's car today and had'nt been following any of this suspension mods.All I wanted was to drive a Kenny Brown Marauder.
I take off and as I'm going about 40MPH Mac say's do what I tell you next ! I'm thinking He's going to yell" punch it" NO he yells TURN LEFT and I do with out touching the brakes.The Marauder turns abrutly without any roll or flexing, what the f#@@ is this, the last time I had a American car do this it was a Vette.I would have never done nor could I have done that with my stock Marauder.It was as if I had indpendent suspension.Wether I need it on a stock Marauder I can't say but if your pushing some real Horse Power you should definatly take a look at these control arms.

[SergntMac]

If you think this applies to you, it probably does.

Zack and I did not engineer these control arms. We are two owners who had some complaints about our MMs, with some ideas and hope for correcting them.

Around last Thanksgiving ('03), we hired a professional race car builder, Mike Lopez, to work out the details. Mike measured, cut, pasted, welded, and so on, and throughout Mike's effort, many, many ideas and concepts were examined and explored. However, neither Zack, or, I were directly involved in Mike's thinking on a regular basis. It's all Mike's work, and he did a lot more thinking and planning than he got paid for.

Our desire for chrome-moly tube was ruled out early in the design process as too costly for the benefit. "Mlld steel tube, .125 wall," was Mike's call. Gloss black powercoating was our call. Our desire for "adjustablity" eventually came to be ruled out after Mike pointed out how owners could miscalculate adjustments and really screw up. He carefully measured my MM and decided that "adjustability" was also not in our best interests.

Since we wanted control arms exclusively for the 03/04 Marauder, he factored in an ideal LCA length that would improve pinion angle for most applications, which could be further refined by adjustment to our air suspension, if the owner later desired. This "one size fits all MMs" set of control arms would benefit 99 percent of us Marauders owners, and led discussions of an improved Watts link, as well as a transmission cross-member. Mike feels we are not getting our best performance from the OEM drive line asa whole and he believes there is room for fine tuning with attention to performance, longevity, and safety.

Our control arms were intended to be a solution for one specific automobile, in a market where other turned us away. We tried to make it very clear that these control arms are specific to one automobile, the MM, with cautions against use in other panther based automobiles. But, we heard extensively from that corner anyway. We know CV/PI and GM owners read here, but we could not honestly say that our control arms would work in those applications, because we did not cross-test them. They may work, they may not. We don't know, and we're not taking that risk.

Likewise, once Mike observed that my control arms had already stretched, he refused to work with deformed parts. Thus, the mix of new "replacement parts" in measurement, and photography.

Mike worked at his own deliberate speed on this project, but 3 grand in coins later, he handed us prototypes for real world testing. Test we did, with very pleasing results. BTW, just in case you are not aware of it, some of our goals included ideal front to rear weight transfer under WOT, ideal front end alignment, because the rear end alignment was whacked out. Ideal drive line angle under WOT, ideal body roll and twist in hard cornering, and getting all the power out to the tires, and not lost in suspension flex or twist, anywhere in the attempt. I think we made our goals on all counts, and more.

The end result is that Mike designed a "one size fits all" set of control arms that work. And, they work to the degree that we could offer y'all some financial protection on your investment too. I think it's a shame a few of y'all didn't see it this way too.

Neither Zack nor I expected to be called liars, or, stupid. We did not expect to be asked the same questions many times over and over, when the honest answers had been given the first time around, and many times over too. We did not expect anyone to "draw first blood" in obvious personal attacks. This really threw me too. As long as I've been here with y'all, I never expected my word to be so worthless...Dayum.

So (and sadly too), like Zack says, our Zack-Mac, or, Mac-Zack tech shop is closed. For y'all who have made an investment in our control arms, rest assured you remain protected as agreed, and you will be contacted directly when other components have completed testing.

[martyo]

Mac and Zack, Zack and Mac, I have not received my CA's yet, but I expect to receive them shortly. I am excited by that prospect. I have spoken to both of you personally about them and I appreciate your efforts and ca$h outlay. "Thanks" are in order and I have expressed them off the board and I want to express them again here.

I hope you guys will consider reopening your doors and proceeding with the development/production of the Watts link. Is there something I can do to help?

[2003_MM_FYRE49]

Whatever...here's my original question which was presented on page #2 I think of this thread...

If someone can find me the answer, I'd appreciate it. I'm not coming at Zack or Mac...it's just a simple question that has yet to be answered.

So...I'll ask one more time before this thread gets closed.

Why are the lower arms longer changing the pinion angle? Why were these not just a direct replacement?

For those of you that have a problem with this simple question being asked...I don't understand. I don't know the answer...it's not a "trick" question...I'm not trying to make someone stumble with the answer then baffle them with what I know about this...cause I don't...it's just a simple question that I'd like the answer to.

Thanks again in advance for the 5th time.

Having a good friend that works for NASCAR's driver Sterling Marlin I gave him a call tonight so he could explain it to me in laymans terms (don't forget, I'm the idiot that runs into the burning building when everyone else is running out).

Mac and Zack said that the longer lower arms puts the drive line in a straight line but I still wondered how it made the car handle better. My buddy Mike sets up the suspensions for Sterling's race cars. Mike told me that what was being accomplished by lengthening the lower control arms was making the tires "screw" or, "bite" into the ground harder under wide open acceleration. This bite is what enables the vehicle corner harder. Hammering the throttle to the floor causes the rear axle to rotate thus causing the tires to bite. Lengthening the lower control causes the tires to "screw" or "bite" harder into the ground thus giving you the better handling characteristics and giving you a truer straight line for the axle and drive shaft to work with.

I also asked Mike if this setup would cause any undo wear on the drive shaft and u-joints under normal driving conditions. He said that we have nothing to worry about, that the cars (drive shaft & u-joints) will not break unexpectedly.

I can personnally attest to the quality of this product. Mac was gracious enough, oh hell LOL, he told me to take the car for a ride. I took a regular street corner at 45 m.p.h. with the car going around it like nobody's business. In fact after I went around the corner the oncoming car gave me a thumbs up. I guess it looked pretty impressive. Now I can tell you that the last time I had the nerve to take a corner like that was when I was in Richard Petty's driving school in Charlotte N.C. over a decade ago. Believe me when I tell you folks, my buddy Mike has been in racing for over 20 years now with 18 of those years working for various NASCAR teams. He knows his ***** when it comes to suspensions. If he can make a car go left at 200 m.p.h. with out the drive shaft acting like a pogo stick then I would say his word is good enough for me.

These two Gentlemen did an outstanding job getting the control arms manufactured with the result being a quality product. TAF, I hope that I was able to answer your question satisfactorily. For those still in doubt I don't know what else to tell you except give them a try. Mac and Zack backed the CA's with a decent gaurentee. :burnout:

[BillyGman]

I agree w/Marty on that. I haven't made a purchase of these as you know, but that's for various reasons including the fact that I'm looking at another possible purchase for my MM that will be a stretch for me as it is. Anyway, I hope that you guys will try to roll all of this off your back as frustrating as it might be for you.

Unfortunately all of this stuff is just human nature. It often isn't acceptable, but human nature stinks. I think it sometimes isn't intentional on anyone's part, but it has more to do w/a lack and a failure to communicate. I'm not attempting to justify it, but I hope that you guys just try and overlook this. The mods that have errupted as a result of this board help all of us MM owners in the longrun even if each one of us does NOT purchase everyone of them.

[TAF]

Thanks Tim, I appreciate you assembling some sort of answer for why lower control arms would be lengthened and what results (positive/negative) would come of doing this.

Now, I can take this info back to guys who really know the suspension on this car and give that info to get their collective response.

I guess if you ask enough, someone's going to answer :confused:

Whatever....

[CRUZTAKER]

I also asked Mike if this setup would cause any undo wear on the drive shaft and u-joints under normal driving conditions. He said that we have nothing to worry about, that the cars (drive shaft & u-joints) will not break unexpectedly.
That answer settles in my stomach like a glass of fine cognac...:D

Then again, I was never concerned. Thanks guys.

[MI2QWK4U]

Mac, I really havent read all of the postings, but did your guy give you a reason your arms deformed? If i recall, we lowered our rear ends to about the same height, remember we measured at the open house last year. Just a couple of quick questions, did your horsepower mess them up, or did lowering the rear end do it? And does the pinion angle thing add to or even out the change in angle created when we lowered our ass end by an inch and 1/4? Thanks, Dave

[Marauderman]

Just want to throw my .02 in here--Yesterday my son-in-law was changing the oil on # 7 and while up on the lift, I took a serious look at those control arms...and man oh man---what small thin ones they are!!! Those pics in the first part of this post are an eye opener alright, but up close under and seeing how small and frail they really are -well.........

My check is in the mail today for a set.......... ...so you may want to re-check and look again and put some coins away for some .... with all those whom have spoken about them and their effect already ...it's a done deal.......

Thanks....Zack and Mac.................Tom

[Zack]

I shipped 10 sets today.
Here is the list:

Carl Smith
Gordon Heissler
Jaqueline Rygalski
JD LaPrarie
Joseph Walsh
Michael Eaton
Robert Vess
Ryan Hurley
Scott Dibble
Tom Doan

Thank you everyone.

[jbr927]

Thanks for the note Zack. :banana2:

Now, if the weather would help out I could get the snow shoes off and all the new mods on!!! :bigcry:

Jacki

[Haggis]

I shipped 10 sets today.
Here is the list:

Carl Smith
Gordon Heissler
Jaqueline Rygalski
JD LaPrarie
Joseph Walsh
Michael Eaton
Robert Vess
Ryan Hurley
Scott Dibble
Tom Doan

Thank you everyone.

Waiting here with anticipation. Thanks Zack.
Received your e-mail, did not mean to be pushy just anxious.

[HwyCruiser]

Woohoo! I can't wait to hit the slaloms :bounce: !

-JD

[woaface]

Hey, I was admiring the underside of my car earlier today and looked at the control arms.

Stock...you guys have some pretty ancient control arms:lol:

Anyways, I hope this works out ok, I've seen new control arms as very popular modifications for Mustangs. Good number of CA ads in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords magazine. Just from a geometrical stand point, wouldn't the tubed geometry of a different control arm be stronger than a flat one impressed in the middle?

[MERCMAN]

Had the chance to get under the car yesterday. Those arms are pretty light-weight looking for such a heavyweight car.(see pics) Hmm, lets see, if I have a garage sale, sell some stuff on e-bay. To quote a famous movie line,," Just as I thought I was getting out,, they pulled me back in"
Oh well, another day, another mod.

[Zack]

Just another reminder to all...
In the last 2 weeks, I have only received 2 prepayments for rear control arms.
We will make them 10 at a time from now on, due to market saturation.
I stand to reason that the current interest, or lack there of will dictate this might be the last run of control arms for a long while if not for good.
I need 4 more prepayments and I will buy the last four sets so the ball can get rolling.
Im not going to tell you how good this product is or how it will benefit your car both on and off the track.
I am going to tell you time is running out, if you are interested or think you are, this might be your last chance ever to pick up a set.
Thanks to all,
Zack

[Constable]

If you haven't bought these arms yet, DO IT!! You DO NOT want to miss this opportunity. I installed mine today in my shop... great quality product, I could feel the awesome difference as soon as I pulled out of my driveway... GET 'EM!

[Big Joe P]

Mine are going on tomorrow morning along with the addco rear sway bar from Dennis. I'll let you know how it goes.........

[jspradii]

I finally got mine installed. I'm telling you folks, this is the best single suspension mod I can think of for this car. The linear and lateral control is 100% better (at least) than the flimsy stock control arms. Get 'em while you can! You will not regret it. :banana2:

[jabird56]

Hi Zack,

Let me know what the total cost is (including shipping) and your address and I'll get a check of to you for a set.

Jay Bird
In the Heartland


Just another reminder to all...
In the last 2 weeks, I have only received 2 prepayments for rear control arms.
We will make them 10 at a time from now on, due to market saturation.
I stand to reason that the current interest, or lack there of will dictate this might be the last run of control arms for a long while if not for good.
I need 4 more prepayments and I will buy the last four sets so the ball can get rolling.
Im not going to tell you how good this product is or how it will benefit your car both on and off the track.
I am going to tell you time is running out, if you are interested or think you are, this might be your last chance ever to pick up a set.
Thanks to all,
Zack

[MM03]

I installed thease last friday so I have a little road time on them. They preform as advertised. I wanted them to help cornering and after a few days i am really pleased how they worked. The quality of the parts are great as are the instructions. Thanks M & Z for making this mod happen. :rock:
Ron

[MAD-3R]

Just another reminder to all...
In the last 2 weeks, I have only received 2 prepayments for rear control arms.
We will make them 10 at a time from now on, due to market saturation.
I stand to reason that the current interest, or lack there of will dictate this might be the last run of control arms for a long while if not for good.
I need 4 more prepayments and I will buy the last four sets so the ball can get rolling.
Im not going to tell you how good this product is or how it will benefit your car both on and off the track.
I am going to tell you time is running out, if you are interested or think you are, this might be your last chance ever to pick up a set.
Thanks to all,
Zack

I do so want these bad. I have a bruse on my sholder where I slammed the B-piller correcting from a slide. :)

Wife? What would I have to do?

[Big Joe P]

Had the Zack & Mac rear control arms installed today, along with a bigger rear sway bay. Outstanding. I thought the car handled well as is. Then I took Zack's car for a ride. A great part, a great addition to the car. You know when you're in a turn and the car tells you to slow down? Now it tells you to speed up..... Highly recommended.

[SergntMac]

You know when you're in a turn and the car tells you to slow down? Now it tells you to speed up.
Yeah...LOL...They do that. Full power in a turn, I love it!

[HwyCruiser]

This mod will start you doing some crazy things in a 4200 lb vehicle...

:lol:

...be safe out there!

- JD

[ts-pa]

I recieved the rear control arms, unfortunately, they are not yet installed.
Getting anxious though!
The quality, cost, results of these arms leads me to wonder about the Watts linkage. Is there a timeframe for when they would be available? Estimated costs?

[Zack]

I am finally saying goodbye to a Mm Ive been working on for the past month.
I will have time again to focus on the Watts link.
No price guesstimate yet, though.

[HwyCruiser]

(Whisper) ...build it and they will come...

[SergntMac]

whispered back...we'll be there.

[CRUZTAKER]

Anticipation.....;)

[Petrograde]

I am finally saying goodbye to a Mm Ive been working on for the past month.
I will have time again to focus on the Watts link.
No price guesstimate yet, though.


:rock: I really want one of those Watts' links!!!!

[pacammer]

:rock: I really want one of those Watts' links!!!!
Guys and Gals,

I just had Mac & Zack's Upper and lower control arms installed. Prior to installation I put the car on a drive on lift and measured the at rest pinion angle of my car. It was -2.22 degrees, after the the control arms were installed and the car driven from Ill., to Pa., the pinion angle was -1.28 degrees when measured at rest on the same drive on lift.

Now for the fun part, the car tracks perfectly nuetral, body roll and over-steer are gone. A tremendous improvement and within specifications. What could be better?

Gary

[martyo]

What could be better?

Not a thing!

[89lxbill]

The control arms perform flawlessly. Tightened up the rear end tremendously. Also in 65* weather the car ran a 7.91 with 1.82 60ft. All 60fts were in the 1.8 range. This equates to a 12.41 approx. in the 1/4. The car has been a best of 12.39 in the 40* weather, so with a little cooler air, maybe mid to low 12.3's are possible. Great job guys.

[ts-pa]

:banana: Thanks pacammer for "actual measurements". On Sat, I measured with a tape measure and did a layout in CAD. I had very close to your number. I didn't want to post initially, being such a small difference I thought that I must have measured wrong. I guess not!

I'm sure Zack & Mac appreciate the well deserved positive feedback!

I had to drive to Philly to get new OEM control arms with bushings (good excuse to enjoy the nice day!). Being that my car has just tripped the 40k mark, I felt that this would be in order. If I were to finally buy a Marauder, I might switch to the original arms as to use Zack & Mac arms on the new car.

[Zack]

Again, thanks to all who love the new control arms.

If the 2 members who say 'the check is in the mail' are for real, I am only 2 prepayments away from producing another batch of control arms.

Thanks again,
Zack

[schuvwj]

I installed my Mac and Zack Control Arms over the weekend and drove her to work today. I must say without a doubt this is the best mod I have ever installed!

Thanks Guys! Great Product!

[Zack]

I installed my Mac and Zack Control Arms over the weekend and drove her to work today. I must say without a doubt this is the best mod I have ever installed!

Thanks Guys! Great Product!


The positive feedback was definitely worth the wait.
Thanks again!

[studio460]

Zack:

I've been so darn lazy in getting my grilles and $$$ to you for the control arms, and I've been kicking myself for it! (I still haven't quite gotten around to ordering the second grille yet!) Are you making the factory spec arms or the 1/8-inch longer arms in your next run? I'm interested in the factory spec arms--if you're making the factory spec arms in this run, I will send you a check IMMEDIATELY, and take care of the badgeless grille order later.

Call me to confirm my order request at 818-535-4743 if you want! Thanks for everything and keep up the GREAT work!

[studio460]

Zack:

Thanks for the prompt return call today, Zack! Well, after 15 seconds on the phone with you, you convinced me to order the 1/8-inch longer arms instead! The proverbial check is in the mail! Thanks, Zack! (Will call Ray, "The Dealer," tomorrow and have him drop-ship a new black grille to you--my badgeless grill order will be on its way soon!).

SOMEBODY, ANYBODY--PLEASE ORDER ONE MORE SET SO ZACK CAN GET STARTED ON MY BATCH!!! THIS IS A NO-BRAINER FOR ALL OF YOU WHO ALREADY HAVE THE SWAYBAR!!!

P.S. Zack--I just called Ray "The Dealer" today and he is drop shipping a Marauder grille to you! I will be sending you mine plus another check in the next few days.

[Marauderman]

Well, My son-in-law couldn't get permission to use the lift at work so Ms. M and I found a stang high performance shop --who will do my installed this Friday--Owner Ralph of Carolina Performance says he has done many a stang with something like these arms but not a Marauder -yet--so I'll be there with the instructions to make sure all goes well----Ralph's incentitive--keys to drive # 7 afterwards if he does it correctly.......I can't wait...to feel what all have said already--I'll report the results this weekend......yaw--hooo!!! :rock:

[Haggis]

Well, My son-in-law couldn't get permission to use the lift at work so Ms. M and I found a stang high performance shop --who will do my installed this Friday--Owner Ralph of Carolina Performance says he has done many a stang with something like these arms but not a Marauder -yet--so I'll be there with the instructions to make sure all goes well----Ralph's incentitive--keys to drive # 7 afterwards if he does it correctly.......I can't wait...to feel what all have said already--I'll report the results this weekend......yaw--hooo!!! :rock:


Tom, you are going to love the new handling capabilities of your car with the new control arms. My car feels a whole lot more responsive and steadier now that I had them installed.

[03SILVERSTREAK]

Zack:

Thanks for the prompt return call today, Zack! Well, after 15 seconds on the phone with you, you convinced me to order the 1/8-inch longer arms instead!

SOMEBODY, ANYBODY--PLEASE ORDER ONE MORE SET SO ZACK CAN GET STARTED ON MY BATCH!!! THIS IS A NO-BRAINER FOR ALL OF YOU WHO ALREADY HAVE THE SWAYBAR!!!

Zack--Id be interested in jumping in on this deal so if you can confirm something for me . I will PM my cell # to you...

[03SILVERSTREAK]

SOMEBODY, ANYBODY--PLEASE ORDER ONE MORE SET SO ZACK CAN GET STARTED ON MY BATCH!!! THIS IS A NO-BRAINER FOR ALL OF YOU WHO ALREADY HAVE THE SWAYBAR!!!After speaking with Zack I've decided to Jump-in and enjoy myself so those that are still siting on the fence line better come on down and do this because upgrades like this may never happen again . Thank you Zack... :rock: :beatnik: :cool:

[Haggis]

Tom, you are going to love the new handling capabilities of your car with the new control arms. My car feels a whole lot more responsive and steadier now that I had them installed.


Too update my post from yesterday. It was a nice day yesterday so I took the Marauder out for some excercise. On my way home coming off the highway is a nice long exit ramp with a sweeping down hill left hand turn about a 1/2-3/4 mile long, yellow Speed limit sign says 45mph, well do I listen not no, but &$%@#$& NO! I took that turn at 70mph, no one was in front or behind me. There was no roll to the car at all the turn was flat and smooth, it held the road like it was on a rail. I am very happy that I purchase these control arms they are a great addition to the Addco Sway Bar. Now I need to find a nice twisty road in my area.

Thanks again Zack & Mac!!

[Zack]

Again, thanks for the positive input!
Right now, I have 2 checks and 2 paypals. 2 checks 'in the mail'
It has taken over a month to drum up this excitement.
Im 99% sure this will be the last of them.

[stevengerard]

Again, thanks to all who love the new control arms.

If the 2 members who say 'the check is in the mail' are for real, I am only 2 prepayments away from producing another batch of control arms.

Thanks again,
Zack

Zack you want a check Sunday? I can pay pal you too.

[03SILVERSTREAK]

Again, thanks for the positive input!
Right now, I have 2 checks and 2 paypals. 2 checks 'in the mail'
It has taken over a month to drum up this excitement.
Im 99% sure this will be the last of them.Zack--the payment was sent today via priority mail so you will receiving it within this wed or thurs... :banana2: :bounce: :up:

[studio460]

Zack!

It's late Tuesday night, May 04, 2004 . . . Do we have control arm enough orders yet?!?!?!? ORDER UP, GUYS!!! GET 'EM WHILE THE GETTIN'S STILL GOOD! If you have the Addco sway bar, you NEED these contol arms from Zack!!! P.M. ZACK RIGHT NOW and call him TOMORROW if you're still on the fence and need to have a few questions answered!

[Zack]

Im bringing the money to the fabricator on Friday.
After a long conversation with him yesterday, he informed me the price of steel has risen significantly.
This will be the last run at $395.00, guaranteed.

[jabird56]

Zack,

Send you an e-mail last night. Put the check in the mail yesterday, you should get it by Thursday.

Jay
In the Heartland

[HwyCruiser]

Zack,

Send you an e-mail last night. Put the check in the mail yesterday, you should get it by Thursday.

Jay
In the Heartland

Jay,

I thought you'd be along shortly... :up:

- JD

[Zack]

I just tallied up the payments.
I have 7 payments 'in my hand' and 1 on the way.
The total amount of money 'in the fabricators hand' friday evening will determine how many sets get made.
Thanks again to all,
Zack

[03SILVERSTREAK]

I just tallied up the payments.
I have 7 payments 'in my hand' and 1 on the way.
The total amount of money 'in the fabricators hand' friday evening will determine how many sets get made.
Thanks again to all,
Zack :banana2: :banana2: :banana2: :banana2: :banana2: :banana2: :banana2:

[Todd TCE]

I've followed this one for months now.

As one who first made the package of four adjustable control arms for the SHO back about 93, I've seen many of the same questions and comments. Well, not one on pinion angle maybe...

The first thing that folks do is jump up and down about how weak or flimsy the stock arms are when they look at them. Not quite. The stock arm (and all of them in this case) work on tension and compression loads. Not bending loads in the lateral sense. They are perhaps a bit weak in the lateral sense but I'm confident that part of it is also engineered in for crash damage. Huh? Back that car into something or get hit in the butt and those stock arms bend. That's a good thing. Putting power to the ground via them is not effected in the least except for the compliance of the bushings on each end. That stock arm will probably flex less than the tubular ones in fact in the bending load applied by the torque. (the stock arm has much more vertical section from what I see, granted; I really don't think it makes a hill of beans difference tho) They will not flex as much side to side and if the bushings are of higher durometer they will not have the soft response that the stock arms have. The bushings are going to be the biggest key to what you want.

Someone suggested adjustable arms on either the top or bottom I think? I'd consider the top one 'maybe' given its length and compression applications. NO WAY would I do the lower without some high quality rod end of say 3/4" size. The loads would be transferred to the shanks as well so a garbage grade joint might be trouble.

All in all the work looks pretty sound. Everyone has their own 'way' of doing it if they were to make their own, including me, but what's being offered doesn't make me turn and run. I'll let you guys hash out the pinion angle thing.

And BTW, if you're wonding my input value; over the past ten years I've also produced many parts for both Skip Barber and Russell for thier race cars as well as my customers here in PHX. I admit however I'm not a MM expert. Nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night....

[MENINBLK]

Zack,

I've just sent a Paypal payment to you for a set of Rear Control Arms.
That should bring your total to 9 !!! :rock:

Thanks for making these for us !

[89lxbill]

Well, whether or not the physics add up or not, Zac's arms use the stock bushings and the car I installed them on went from 1.89-1.9X 60ft times to consistant 1.82-1.84 60ft times. The car hasn't been on a skidpad, but it sure feels more stable. That may not seem like much, but consistancy is what pays in bracket racing.



I've followed this one for months now.

As one who first made the package of four adjustable control arms for the SHO back about 93, I've seen many of the same questions and comments. Well, not one on pinion angle maybe...

The first thing that folks do is jump up and down about how weak or flimsy the stock arms are when they look at them. Not quite. The stock arm (and all of them in this case) work on tension and compression loads. Not bending loads in the lateral sense. They are perhaps a bit weak in the lateral sense but I'm confident that part of it is also engineered in for crash damage. Huh? Back that car into something or get hit in the butt and those stock arms bend. That's a good thing. Putting power to the ground via them is not effected in the least except for the compliance of the bushings on each end. That stock arm will probably flex less than the tubular ones in fact in the bending load applied by the torque. (the stock arm has much more vertical section from what I see, granted; I really don't think it makes a hill of beans difference tho) They will not flex as much side to side and if the bushings are of higher durometer they will not have the soft response that the stock arms have. The bushings are going to be the biggest key to what you want.

Someone suggested adjustable arms on either the top or bottom I think? I'd consider the top one 'maybe' given its length and compression applications. NO WAY would I do the lower without some high quality rod end of say 3/4" size. The loads would be transferred to the shanks as well so a garbage grade joint might be trouble.

All in all the work looks pretty sound. Everyone has their own 'way' of doing it if they were to make their own, including me, but what's being offered doesn't make me turn and run. I'll let you guys hash out the pinion angle thing.

And BTW, if you're wonding my input value; over the past ten years I've also produced many parts for both Skip Barber and Russell for thier race cars as well as my customers here in PHX. I admit however I'm not a MM expert. Nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night....

[Zack]

Here is a list of Paid members:
Nick Fafalios
Norman Campbell
Larry Krause
Ralph Oshiro
Ronald Lombardi
Fred Keith, Jr
Steven saraceno
Adrian Delgado
Peter Joseph Romano


I know a few of you have payment on the way.
Again, the money is going to the fabricator Friday.
Please, no 'I mailed the check out Friday, put me down for a set'
Thanks,
Zack

[stevengerard]

Nick Fafalios
Norman Campbell
Larry Krause
Ralph Oshiro
Ronald Lombardi
Fred Keith, Jr
Steven saraceno
Adrian Delgado
Peter Joseph Romano

Zack

Look at all those names ending in a vowel!

[MENINBLK]

Look at all those names ending in a vowel!

U got sumpin' on vowels ??
Or r u just jealous becuse u ain't got 1 at da en of ur name ???
:cool4:

[stevengerard]

U got sumpin' on vowels ??
Or r u just jealous becuse u ain't got 1 at da en of ur name ???
:cool4:


I'm a one a doze in da list!

[Zack]

Its Thursday at 5:30pm

Here is a list of Paid members:
Nick Fafalios
Norman Campbell
Larry Krause
Ralph Oshiro
Ronald Lombardi
Fred Keith, Jr
Steven Saraceno
Adrian Delgado
Peter Joseph Romano
Joseph C. Maida
James A. Bird

24 hours remaining to get your money to me.
708-476-2647
Paypal: zackmcgrath@hotmail.com
Thanks

[SergntMac]

The first thing that folks do is jump up and down about how weak or flimsy the stock arms are when they look at them....
I'm not going to copy your whole post again, Todd, it's posted ^ there for everyone to read if they wish. However, I do want to ask...

Have you spent any time behind the wheel of a Marauder, in a performance setting?

Have you driven a 1/4 mile contest in a Marauder?

Have you tried to launch a Marauder with better than 2.0 60 foot times?

Have you driven a Marauder in any high speed events involving severe turning and control issues?

On the higyway?

In the rain?

Ummm...Ever hear an MMs rear tires rub against the inside of the fender?

I have, Todd. And, I have to say that your opinion, i.e. "they are perhaps a bit weak in the lateral sense but I'm confident that part of it is also engineered in for crash damage" disturbs me...Greatly.

This is a serious concern for me, and other MM owners in any performance driving. We have a problem you do not have much experience with, but thank you for your advice. You're not speaking for FMC, right?

It's my humble opinion that your understatement is entirely speculative and you are "cashing in" on your automotive accomplishments, not our first hand experience with this car. Selling many brake kits?

Furthermore, to import the notion that the OEM control arms are somehow designed to be safer in a serious rear end collision is "think tank-canned answer" political giberish.

I am an owner, a driver, a "Major Accident Specialist" in my work who does not drool on himself while on the computer...and I think not.

The rear crush zone on the Panther frame is well designed and extensively tested, both in the lab and on the highway. The control arms are not engineered with any "safety" features in mind, they are not components of the crush zone.

Let me say it this way, Todd...If ever you or any of your loved ones are involved in a rear end collision that comes to challenge the compression of the MM's upper and lower control arms, that durability and wearwithall will be a question your estate, or, survivors can explore. God's speed too.

Our control arm project is about done now, Todd, and 50 some sets are in the field. Zack and I have some very positive feedback from many owners, some who really push their MMs to it's new limits while others just appreciate the new feel back there. However, like Zack has posted here, this MM market is about saturated now, and neither of us expect many new customers raising their "me-me!" hands. Those who would be interested, have signed on, and with exception to the few who may call in the future, we're done with this project. You're a day late and dollar short, Todd, you watched this thread too long.

However, your post is not totally worthless, I wish you had spent more time on bushings. It's the one area where Zack and I felt we would leave that critical decision to the customer. The OEM bushings are very efficient and a good starting point, IMHO. But, I agree that some will want to improve on them, and for their own reasons, and at their own pace. Feel free to guide us forward?

If you posted here because you're bored and need to talk about something non-brake related, please talk bushings? It's more productive for us MM owners, yes? Oh, and BTW...I'm not an automotive engineer, or, the designer of our control arms, that was another guy who does that stuff for money like you do brake stuff for money, eh? Hell, I don't even own a chip! But, I am a MM owner who drives his MM hard and tight in corners, and I don't like to hear my tires rub up against my fenders.

I'm also someone who's examined crushed automobiles and broken people after the fact, and for 28 years now...You brake 'em, Todd, and I scrape 'em. Let's stick to our specialities, yes?

[Petrograde]

this should be interesting....

[MI2QWK4U]

Can anyone answer these questions Mac or are they reserved for Todd? I will answer it....my answers in bold.




Have you spent any time behind the wheel of a Marauder, in a performance setting? YES

Have you driven a 1/4 mile contest in a Marauder? YES, Several Dozen.

Have you tried to launch a Marauder with better than 2.0 60 foot times? YES, best of 1.7something I believe.

Have you driven a Marauder in any high speed events involving severe turning and control issues? YES, precision driving course.

On the higyway? YES, at high speed.

In the rain? YES, at high speed on the highway.

Ummm...Ever hear an MMs rear tires rub against the inside of the fender? NO


I dont understand what those questions are supposed to prove or establish. I think Lidio has posted, and I agree with, from experience of course, that our Marauders launch straight and true. These are two of the higher powered cars on the road, especially in the off the line torque department. I can say that our control arms are just fine and show no distortion whatsoever. I will politely say that I am happy with what I have and leave it at that. I know Lid has the same opinion after being asked. I will raise this question however, at what point do we stop rebuilding our cars? Todd may not represent FMC Mac, but honestly none of us do, including me and you. Piece by piece, soon the car will be more aftermarket than factory, which is cool, im not your judge or jury on that one, so do as you like. It pleases me that you enjoy doing what you do with the cars, just like I hope you are pleased by what I do with mine. Imagine this, eventually there will be 2 Marauders on the road...bone stock and modified....and the great thing is that the modified Marauders will all be differend. I doubt you will find two modded Marauders that are identical....deep thought isnt it.... But what disturbs me is not the control arms, pinion angles, etc...but rather the jabs at Todd. Todd has an opinion that may be right? I dont know, its meant to make you think. It is way out of line to taunt Todd about how many brake kits he has sold. He sounds like he knows what he is doing. As you requested, maybe he is sticking to his specialty? I find your post in bad taste and a big "F Off" to Todd for speaking his mind. Thats sad. But I am sure you will Edit your post later on and no one will be the wiser, except for a few that see it now, and of course Todd.

[TAF]

Can anyone answer these questions Mac or are they reserved for Todd? I will answer it....my answers in bold.




I dont understand what those questions are supposed to prove or establish. I think Lidio has posted, and I agree with, from experience of course, that our Marauders launch straight and true. These are two of the higher powered cars on the road, especially in the off the line torque department. I can say that our control arms are just fine and show no distortion whatsoever. I will politely say that I am happy with what I have and leave it at that. I know Lid has the same opinion after being asked. I will raise this question however, at what point do we stop rebuilding our cars? Todd may not represent FMC Mac, but honestly none of us do, including me and you. Piece by piece, soon the car will be more aftermarket than factory, which is cool, im not your judge or jury on that one, so do as you like. It pleases me that you enjoy doing what you do with the cars, just like I hope you are pleased by what I do with mine. Imagine this, eventually there will be 2 Marauders on the road...bone stock and modified....and the great thing is that the modified Marauders will all be differend. I doubt you will find two modded Marauders that are identical....deep thought isnt it.... But what disturbs me is not the control arms, pinion angles, etc...but rather the jabs at Todd. Todd has an opinion that may be right? I dont know, its meant to make you think. It is way out of line to taunt Todd about how many brake kits he has sold. He sounds like he knows what he is doing. As you requested, maybe he is sticking to his specialty? I find your post in bad taste and a big "F Off" to Todd for speaking his mind. Thats sad. But I am sure you will Edit your post later on and no one will be the wiser, except for a few that see it now, and of course Todd.
Thanks Dave! :up:

You just saved me some typing. Inexcusable arrogance at it's WORST...in my opinion.

[Zack]

And TAF, this thread, originated by Mac and I, has received more attention and responses good or bad than any other topic to date.
I know that bothers you, sorry.

[Zack]

Hey Mac, can we rig the door prize contest at Indy so Dave wins the control arms?

[MI2QWK4U]

Hey Mac, can we rig the door prize contest at Indy so Dave wins the control arms?


Just like last year? No thanks Zack, stock ones are fine for me.

[bigslim]

I am finally gonna weigh in here. I had not responded to this post yet but I have some questions to ask.

First, were these developed by an engineer? It is my understanding that the rear should have some flex. Being a Millwright (at Ford) and understanding laws of metal, I know that if it is too rigid it will break. The old control arms were engineered for this. True, your cars are much more powerful than stock and may need some beefing up. I am sure that these cars still need some play room in the arms. Too rigid, it will snap. That maybe why there was play in the old control arms.

Second, I noticed that the new arms are welded instead of forged. I am sure that if welded was better Ford would have used them instead. Forged is stronger than welded. Are the welds certified welds? You are asking for trouble with welds and a rigid rearend. The welds will crack. Welding pipe stock on round stock metal with no give is asking for trouble. If it is rigid the arms will twist themselves and cause cracks in the welds.

Third, I have never seen the supercharged cars launch sideways. True, the cars may bite for traction and cause some sway in the rearend but I have never seen a car go sideways. I saw the Trilogy run a 15.7 because it could not hook up and it still never went sideways. The tires just kept burning.

Lastly remember, These cars are engineered by engineers and have been tested over and over. Welded control arms would have been cheaper for Ford. This should make you ask the question why thay chose forged over welded ones. I can't tell you what to do and I apprieciate Mac and Zack trying something new. I just am not sold on this. But this is from a guy that deals with steel as a living.

[FordNut]

This should make you ask the question why thay chose forged over welded ones.

OEM ones are not forged they are stamped steel, as in sheet metal.

[bigslim]

Stamped steel is still stronger than welded. A part made out of one piece rather than three has less of a chance of breaking. I don't have to be a customer to have an opinion. I guess you have read my other post. Dealing with steel and certified welds everyday and also knowing something about physics I guess I do have an opinion. SORRY DUDE!!

[FordNut]

Stamped steel is still stronger than welded. A part made out of one piece rather than three has less of a chance of breaking.

But cost is the reason for this manufacturing process, not strength as you originally stated. If strength was the driving factor wouldn't it have been a forged part as you have suggested?

And Shelby traction bars on Mustangs, both the under- and over-ride types have been made just like these parts since the sixties. I've never heard of one breaking.

[merc406]

Billet Aluiminum, nuff said.......

[bigslim]

The only other way to good would be Billet pieces (more costly). You still need some play in the rearend or breakage will occur. Next thing they will want carbon fiber arms for less weight.

[hitchhiker]

The only other way to good would be Billet pieces (more costly). You still need some play in the rearend or breakage will occur. Next thing they will want carbon fiber arms for less weight.

This may sound stupid, but what if two were installed in place of one on each side with the additional one being installed 180 degrees against the existing one?

It looks like two of the stamped stock arms would fit over the bushing/mount areas...?

Would this be possible?

I still plan on getting a sert of Zack's control arms in the future once I have
saved up money for my whole list of mods. I want to have everything put in at my servicing dealer in one trip sometime later this year or early next.

Thanks and Best Regards,

David

[TAF]

Billet Aluiminum, nuff said.......
that's what mine are going to be...

[SergntMac]

I am finally gonna weigh in here. I had not responded to this post yet but I have some questions to ask.

First, were these developed by an engineer? It is my understanding that the rear should have some flex. Being a Millwright (at Ford) and understanding laws of metal, I know that if it is too rigid it will break. The old control arms were engineered for this. True, your cars are much more powerful than stock and may need some beefing up. I am sure that these cars still need some play room in the arms. Too rigid, it will snap. That maybe why there was play in the old control arms.

Second, I noticed that the new arms are welded instead of forged. I am sure that if welded was better Ford would have used them instead. Forged is stronger than welded. Are the welds certified welds? You are asking for trouble with welds and a rigid rearend. The welds will crack. Welding pipe stock on round stock metal with no give is asking for trouble. If it is rigid the arms will twist themselves and cause cracks in the welds.

Third, I have never seen the supercharged cars launch sideways. True, the cars may bite for traction and cause some sway in the rearend but I have never seen a car go sideways. I saw the Trilogy run a 15.7 because it could not hook up and it still never went sideways. The tires just kept burning.

Lastly remember, These cars are engineered by engineers and have been tested over and over. Welded control arms would have been cheaper for Ford. This should make you ask the question why thay chose forged over welded ones. I can't tell you what to do and I apprieciate Mac and Zack trying something new. I just am not sold on this. But this is from a guy that deals with steel as a living.Thank you, Darryl, for posting the only reply with any thought for the merits of this project. I hope your words do not get you called out of class.

First, let me say to all of you, that if you have not held these control arms in your hands, or, installed them on your MM, you're spitting into the wind. From day one, we offered a full "money back" deal. If you buy them and don't like them, you don't have to keep them. Therefore, any further comments posted here from non-users are regarded as the unintelligent and uninformed. Call us all the names y'all wish, the winners are driving on our control arms.

Back to you, Darryl...Yes, these control arms were developed by an engineer, Mike Lopez, who has been in the race car building business a very long time. He is very well known in his trade, and we should be honored that he spent some time on the Marauder. Trust me to say that he didn't make his usual money on this project. Neither have Zack or I. This has been a straight up no profit investment on behalf of our fellow owners. Mike liked that aspect, though he did warn us of this critical reaction to the final product. Apparently, we didn't listen to that advice.

Our control arms have some play in them, by virtue of the bushings which we left OEM. I expect some owners to make some changes, but that's a personal decision. The durability of .125 wall mild steel has it's own reputation, Zack and I feel they are strong enough to get the job done, and soft enough to not to cause any damage when relied upon. Can they break? Sure they can! But, they won't break as soon as the OEM arms will break, and they won't cause any additional damage to adjacent structures. These control arms are one solution to a real time problem, and overall, I am very pleased to have participated in offering them to Marauder owners. If they work for you, that's rewarding to me. If they don't work for you, you can have your money back. If you haven't tried them, what do you know about it all?

With respect for "welding vs. forged," well, there are different schools of thought, and one of them included expense of materials. We were able to develop this mod at a cost affordable to most members. Forged steel and billet aluminum would have made the control arms much too expensive for our use here. We kept it under 400 bucks, better systems could have been made available, but they would start at 750 bucks. Following that trail would have redlined the average user here, and that was not our intent. We wanted to offer the best mod for the least dollars, and we have. With respect to what FMC may or may not have considered in their design of the MM, well, you have to look at the car as a whole, and count up the other cost saving measures taken. I am sure no one inside FMC or L/M gave much consideration to the fact that some of us would actually drive over the speed limit, let alone drive the 1320.

Zack and I took every aspect into consideration while developing this mod, and watching how many of us here actually thrive on real time racing also played heavy in the design. We feel we have offered the best bang for the buck. It's not a perfect solution, but we don't own the kind of race car that would need that perfect solution. These control arms are a sure improvement over the OEM stuff, and we are pleased, and highly confident, that they are made of the correct materials and follow a correct design. With 40 sets on the blacktop, and maybe the last 10-12 in production, it's rather obvious that most here agree with us. Again, thank you Darryl, for an intelligent post that I can respond to.

Dave...ToddTCE got the response he invited, and I am sure he can handle that himself. There is nothing disrespectful towards him as a vendor, that wasn't put into play by him first. Moreover, when you accomplish something in your MM life without Lidio's permission or guidance, give me a call? In reality, Mike Lopez is my (our) Lidio with respect to these control arms and more suspension tuning already in construction. Do I suppose that it's okay for you to have Lidio as a muse, but I (Zack and I) cannot have a muse of our own? Dave, this is so unlike you, where is the fairness?

This started out so simple...Y'all are just nuts over any chance to disrespect anyone y'all can. What a shame...

[merc406]

I apologize Mac and Zack for my intrusion into your thread.

I hope the others involved will do so also.......

[Logan]

Folks, if you want them, buy them. If you want to build your own, go ahead.

But for god's sake's stop giving M&Z a hard time because they're being innovative.

As for the Illinois/Michigan gang war, take it off this site, I'm sick of the bickering.

I, as I'm sure they, have had enough of this.