Proper Brake Bleeding Procedures

[tbone]

When I replaced the entire braking system, I could not get the air out of the system. So I finally took it to a "professional" that was recommended to me to bleed it. Twice. Still a spongy pedal. :(

Turns out there is a special procedure needing a scan tool to open up the anti-lock brake module to bleed the air after replacing the master cylinder. May be common knowledge to some of you, but I had no idea, although I suspected air in the ant-lock brake module was a possibility. Taking it to another mechanic on Wednesday that has this very expensive piece of hardware/software and get it done right.

Just thought I would share this to spare anyone else the pain, misery and expense I've been going through on this.

:beer:

[MMcactusflower]

Wow...thanks for that information...will be most important to us down the line I suspect.

[massacre]

Didn't Dom have a similar issue?

[fastblackmerc]

When I installed my TCE big brake kit I just gravity bled them.

Will be doing the same when I install new calipers, stainless steel lines, pads & rotors on the rear.

[martyo]

When I replaced the entire braking system, I could not get the air out of the system. So I finally took it to a "professional" that was recommended to me to bleed it. Twice. Still a spongy pedal. :(

Turns out there is a special procedure needing a scan tool to open up the anti-lock brake module to bleed the air after replacing the master cylinder. May be common knowledge to some of you, but I had no idea, although I suspected air in the ant-lock brake module was a possibility. Taking it to another mechanic on Wedsnesday that has this very expensive piece of hardware/software and get it done right.

Just thought I would share this to spare anyone else the pain, misery and expense I've been going through on this.

:beer:

Did you bench bleed the master?

[tbone]

When I installed my TCE big brake kit I just gravity bled them.

Will be doing the same when I install new calipers, stainless steel lines, pads & rotors on the rear.


Gravity bleeding won't open the anti-lock brake module which is necessary if you replace the master cylinder which is the point of this thread.

[tbone]

Did you bench bleed the master?

Yes, I did it when I did the work and they did it on the replacement master they claimed was the problem when they did their bleeding work.

I read in the repair manual at the new mechanics shop about the need for the scan tool to perform the special bleeding procedure after replacing the master cylinder. I still can't believe the first mechanic did not know of this. This isn't the first car ever produced with anti-lock brakes......

[justbob]

I was waiting for the spongy pedal after I did my line lock. Nothing different, got lucky.


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[martyo]

I was waiting for the spongy pedal after I did my line lock. Nothing different, got lucky.

It can be done without using the scan tool.

Truste me, we have dine it countless times.

[Blackmobile]

I can also attest that it can be done without the scan tool. I just replaced the master cylinder last week. Bench bled the MC then bled the brakes. The peddle is rock hard and and the TCE Wilwood brake system can stop the MM on a dime.

[Spectragod]

I can also attest that it can be done without the scan tool. I just replaced the master cylinder last week. Bench bled the MC then bled the brakes. The peddle is rock hard and and the TCE Wilwood brake system can stop the MM on a dime.

As have I, replaced the master cylinder when I got the car, added Wilwoods later, everything bled just fine.

Things may have changed with the aftermarket, you used to need a Ford IDS tool to activate the ABS module to bleed air from it.

[EMAS]

Bench bleed the MC first then bleed the lines going into the ABS module, that prevents air from entering the ABS module and the need for the scan tool to cycle it to remove it.

[tbone]

It can be done without using the scan tool.

Truste me, we have dine it countless times.


That's fine. Not working for me. I read in the service manual about using the scan tool. I hope it works. Nothing else makes any sense at this point.

[martyo]

That's fine. Not working for me. I read in the service manual about using the scan tool. I hope it works. Nothing else makes any sense at this point.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

I was trying to give you encouragement.

[tbone]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

I was trying to give you encouragement.

Not offended at all Marty.;)

I just want this GD pedal to be firm like it's supposed to be. I replaced every component of the braking system except the steel lines and the anti-lock module. Frustrated is not a big enough word........

[martyo]

Not offended at all Marty.;)

I just want this GD pedal to be firm like it's supposed to be. I replaced every component of the braking system except the steel lines and the anti-lock module. Frustrated is not a big enough word........

Did you go with Stainless lines at the calipers? Those can majke a HUGE difference.

Are you sure the master is not defective? Or is it the correct model? There are two and the part selectin is impacted by traction control.

[tbone]

This is the second new master, so I eliminated that as the problem.

I did not go stainless, but there is still no way the brakes should be this spongy. My Town Cars' brakes are perfect.

[ctrlraven]

I had mine replaced last Friday, brakes feel better than what they did before but still not as firm as my Taurus brakes are.

My mechanic bled the master cylinder, vacuumed the lines to pull all old fluid out, bled the brakes the old school way (no hose just built up pressing from brake pumps and cracked open the bleeder and then closed after a small squirt of fluid), then bled via abs module then bled with a hose and bottle of fluid. He did the abs module and hose method both twice, each time THE pedal felt firmer after the hose method than compared to the abs module way.

He also checked each caliper to make sure they were not getting hung up. He was kinda baffled and felt bad that he couldn't get the brakes to feel firmer but another tech said they felt actually the same as his 04 Taurus.

[martyo]

This is the second new master, so I eliminated that as the problem.

I did not go stainless, but there is still no way the brakes should be this spongy. My Town Cars' brakes are perfect.

Do the lines at the calipers look swollen or feel squishy?

[tbone]

Had the brakes bled with the module open and they said they got some air to come out, but not a lot. The brakes continue to be spongy, but better. I also adjusted the brake booster out some more, which helped a lot. But why I needed to do it again is a mystery. If they stay like they are now, I'm ok with it. I wonder if the ant-lock module has some internal issues.

[babbage]

TCE SS Lines are cheap and very effective. I'd recommend these.

[tbone]

But they won't stop the pedal from slowly going to the floor with steady pressure.

[ctrlraven]

TCE SS Lines are cheap and very effective. I'd recommend these.
I've got the KVR goodridge ss lines and still have spongy brakes.

[babbage]

I've KVR goodridge ss lines and still have spongy brakes.

Ya need the TCE kit. :D

[martyo]

But they won't stop the pedal from slowly going to the floor with steady pressure.

That sounds like a master bleeding down.

Air in the system usually will yield a firmer pedal as a result of pumping.

[ctrlraven]

Ya need the TCE kit. :D
No sense in buying the lines when I will be buying the big brake kit. ;)

[Joe Walsh]

Do the lines at the calipers look swollen or feel squishy?

OK...I'm going to have to step in for DOOMie, who has obviously missed this thread....and say:

"That's what she said!!!!"

BTW: Can't you just drive on wet pavement and mash the brake pedal to get the ABS module to activate/cycle and move the air bubbles down to the calipers for a "normal" brake bleed procedure?

[tbone]

Air in the system usually will yield a firmer pedal as a result of pumping.


Exactly what it does.

And I am on my second replacement MC, so I think I eliminated that as the culprit.

[martyo]

Exactly what it does.

And I am on my second replacement MC, so I think I eliminated that as the culprit.

Drive (carefully) to GA and we will help you straighten it out. Satisfaction guaranteed.

[tbone]

Drive (carefully) to GA and we will help you straighten it out. Satisfaction guaranteed.

They work great once they engage, just not a firm pedal like it should be....No danger.

Still playing with the booster adjustment. I set out further last night and it was pretty good, and suddenly on the way home today they were dragging bad. :confused:

Yeah, I wish you were closer.

[justbob]

Softness comes with age cowboy. Are we actually talking about the Marauder? 😜


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[tbone]

Softness comes with age cowboy. Are we actually talking about the Marauder? ��


Sent from my iPhone 4s using TapatalkThat gets bled regularly by the Mrs.:banana:

[justbob]

Huh? Old school two person pumping? It would be easier and much quicker if she hired some help..


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[lifespeed]

I am wondering about this issue too. I had a suspension shop replace my master cylinder recently during the front suspension rebuild. It works pretty well, especially given the enormous grip of the Wilwoods. But as I drive the car more I notice sometimes the pedal goes down further than other times. Lifting and re-depressing the pedal results in a firm, higher up pedal, which sounds suspiciously like there is a bit of air in there.

Something tells me they did not have the Ford VCM tool to do a proper bleed of the ABS, which seems to be the correct thing to do anytime you introduce air upstream of the ABS HCU. Bench bleeding of the master or not, I would think opening the lines guarantees at least some air in the system that needs to be bled out.

The tool is darn near $400. It would be nice to have, but is an expensive item for something that is not used often. I'll bet the stealership would charge $150 just to bleed my brakes, though. :mad:

http://www.ecutool.com/Ford-VCM-IDS_9536.html

[fastblackmerc]

I am wondering about this issue too. I had a suspension shop replace my master cylinder recently during the front suspension rebuild. It works pretty well, especially given the enormous grip of the Wilwoods. But as I drive the car more I notice sometimes the pedal goes down further than other times. Lifting and re-depressing the pedal results in a firm, higher up pedal, which sounds suspiciously like there is a bit of air in there.

Something tells me they did not have the Ford VCM tool to do a proper bleed of the ABS, which seems to be the correct thing to do anytime you introduce air upstream of the ABS HCU. Bench bleeding of the master or not, I would think opening the lines guarantees at least some air in the system that needs to be bled out.

The tool is darn near $400. It would be nice to have, but is an expensive item for something that is not used often. I'll bet the stealership would charge $150 just to bleed my brakes, though. :mad:

http://www.ecutool.com/Ford-VCM-IDS_9536.html

Or find a local shop that can do it for you.

[bugsyc]

My brake pedal is low..I used the button on the dash to raise it to highest level..When I step on pedal it seems low..Pumping pedal doesn't help..It stops fine but it travels farther down before it stops than I would like...Does it need fluid???Can I get the brakes adjusted at the wheel like the older cars???I'd say it goes down to about 2inches from floor to stop..How to make them stop with less pedal travel????thanks...bugsy

[fastblackmerc]

My brake pedal is low..I used the button on the dash to raise it to highest level..When I step on pedal it seems low..Pumping pedal doesn't help..It stops fine but it travels farther down before it stops than I would like...Does it need fluid???Can I get the brakes adjusted at the wheel like the older cars???I'd say it goes down to about 2inches from floor to stop..How to make them stop with less pedal travel????thanks...bugsy

Changing the height of the brake and gas pedal will not change the amount of pedal travel needed to stop the car.

Brake fluid level will not change the amount of pedal travel needed to stop the car unless there is no fluid and there is air in the system.

There is no adjustment on disk brakes. Only adjustment is for the emergency / parking brakes.

There could be a number of things to check out.


Brakes need to be bled
Brake hose(s) might need replacing
Leaking caliper piston seals


When was the last time you checked the brakes?

I'd:

Check the fluid level - use DOT 3 fluid if you need to add any.
Get the brakes checked.
Replace the hoses with stainless steel braided hoses that will not swell under pressure.
Have the system flushed.

[bugsyc]

Been a long time since I checked the brakes..I'll do that..Thanks...

[tbone]

Update:
I pulled the cowling off to clean out the leaves and for easier access to run wires for my new guages. Noticed how the vacuum lines run from the brake booster to a hub and then over to the vacuum box. Didn't know how it all worked before. Needed a piece of vac tubing and pulled it from the vacuum box. Noticed that the end was a little too easy to pull off. So I snipped off the fist inch, then another 2" for my vacuum guage and put the hose back on the vac box. Now my brakes are much, much firmer. Quite excellent, actually.

Moral of the story: Check your vacuum line at the vac box for any leaks if your brakes feel spongy or generally weak.

[ctrlraven]

Update:
I pulled the cowling off to clean out the leaves and for easier access to run wires for my new guages. Noticed how the vacuum lines run from the brake booster to a hub and then over to the vacuum box. Didn't know how it all worked before. Needed a piece of vac tubing and pulled it from the vacuum box. Noticed that the end was a little too easy to pull off. So I snipped off the fist inch, then another 2" for my vacuum guage and put the hose back on the vac box. Now my brakes are much, much firmer. Quite excellent, actually.

Moral of the story: Check your vacuum line at the vac box for any leaks if your brakes feel spongy or generally weak.

Now I have even more of a reason to pull my cowl apart and clean out the trap again.

[Mebot]

There is no adjustment on disk brakes. Only adjustment is for the emergency / parking brakes.

What is the best way to check & adjust the emergency/parking brakes?

sent from a Samsung Galaxy far far away...

[justbob]

Adjustment is in the cable underneath the car, near the rear seating area.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[tbone]

Adjustment is in the cable underneath the car, near the rear seating area.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"


I have to thank you Bob. Your advice on running the wires but first removing the cowling to make it easier and borrowing some tubing from the vacuum box to hook up my new gauge all led me to discovering the vacuum leak.

You da man!:beer:

[justbob]

I have to thank you Bob. Your advice on running the wires but first removing the cowling to make it easier and borrowing some tubing from the vacuum box to hook up my new gauge all led me to discovering the vacuum leak.

You da man!:beer:

Nope. You da man!


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"