'04 Performance Chip Results!

[MikesMerc]

Well, I picked up my 04 MM from Alternative Auto tonight. The work performed was just the addition of an 04 performance chip and a dyno tune session. Before I picked up the car, I was expecting a better "feel" to the car during typical spirited driving. I had already gotten a small taste of this on Sat when I dropped the car off and had limited time to tinker with a few of the shift points, shift firmness, etc. I had left the car with the shop for a few days to get everything ironed out.

So, when I got there tonight, Lidio handed me the keys, and with a big satisfied grin on his face, he said "I think you'll be happy".

That was an understatement!!!

The car is much more fun to drive now. By changing a few shift points, the shift firmness, and delaying the converter lock up until 4th gear at 65mph, the entire responsiveness of the car was greatly improved. The biggest difference is that the very annoying early converter lock up in 2nd gear is gone. From a 30mph roll, a stab of the throttle bolts the car foward instead of bogging, or downshifting.

From a dig there is also imporvement. I could always get a little rubber from a dig before (stock) with the 04. Now, it only takes a 3 quarters of a pedal to light em up :burnout: It also gets a nice bark in 2nd gear too (Lidio...did you plan that way;) ) And mind you, all of this is with the stock 3.55s out back....no 4.10s here!

As far as the dyno tuning, I knew the 04s already came more aggressively tuned from the factory (hence the dual knock sensors). And I also had told Lidio to play it real safe. So I wasn't sure what gains to expect, if any. In the end, Lidio was able to get another 12 ft lbs of torque (253 v 265), and 8hp (240 v 248) at the peaks. But that really doesn't even tell the story. What's far more important is the higher, flatter, broader torque curve along the entire range from 2800 to 6500. And at many points along the curve, the gain is above 20+ ft lbs. That's enough grunt to feel by the seat of the pants.

So those gains were not bad at all for a chip tune!!!!

Put those modest, but noticeable, power gains along with the much improved trans operation, and it's a totally killer combo! I am sure 4.10s would make even a bigger difference, but that's not in the cards for me personallyl. I drive the car to work and I take customers out often. I don't want to ruin the car's sophisticated manners by dropping in a large stall converter, 4.10s, and a noisy exhuast. (If speed was the only thing I needed, I'd drive my modded 86 GT with all of its rattles, harshness, and loony rpms at high speeds:) ) However, for those those looking for a bit more "edge", the 4.10 gears would really do it.

My only complaint is that without the lockup in 2nd and 3rd, the rpms stay a bit higher and the associated exhaust noise is noticeable. It's not "bad" per se. Most would like it. I actually do think it sounds cool too. But, I have to take other execs out to lunch, so I would have preferred no noise gain. That's a pretty niggling thing to worry about, but I thought eveyone should know what I experienced. And I wouldn't trade back the new performance for less noise any day!

On the way home I took the looooooong way:) I liked the performance so much, I actually thought for a moment..."do I want that supercharger for sure?" Yes....the chip tune made that much difference! It felt as if it gave the performance feel that the factory should have. Now, of course I am going to do SC anyway, but, for those who don't have the budget for a blower, Lidio has developed exceptional performance chip tune for the MM that will really enhance the car in my opinion. For a few hundred bucks it was well worth it (heck I've spent that much money wax and polish).

[CRUZTAKER]

Very cool and kudos to Lidio. Nice to finally speak with Lidio myself as well.

So, let's get this straight for ALL '04 owners:

1) A plug in chip can be installed on an '04???

2) This makes the so called 'future of programming & banishment of chips ' SCT tuner a farse reality?

[MikesMerc]

Very cool and kudos to Lidio. Nice to finally speak with Lidio myself as well.

So, let's get this straight for ALL '04 owners:

1) A plug in chip can be installed on an '04???

2) This makes the so called 'future of programming & banishment of chips ' SCT tuner a farse reality?

I'll let Lidio answer this for certain if he sees the thread. But, from my personal experience in the last few days, your answers are YES and YES (at least for the time being).

What was really neat is that it didn't take long at all to "crack" the 04 code once Lidio and Mike Wesley were on the job. I was really itchin for the Trilogy kit, so my 04 became a test mule of sorts. Now with the computer issue licked, it'll be blower time. We don't foresee any real kinks there though.

All 04 owners should be real happy now:D

[CRUZTAKER]

This is very good news for the '04 guys....that is the ones that haven't sprung for the 2 program tuner yet. The chip is by far more flexible at this time, and cheaper.

[MI2QWK4U]

Mike, I saw your car at the shop today when I stopped by to see Lidio. You are now begging to get a taste for what is to come! I drove my Marauder all day, to dinner, then when I got back home, made up an excuse to run out for gas so I could go out and light it up some more! Gotta hand it to Lid for working things out. I got tired of telling folks that the 2004 could be chipped, when everyone said there wasnt a port for it. That wont happen till 2005. Enjoy....
Dave

[Lidio]

Hey Mike… I’m glad every thing feels good with the Marauder. I get pretty excited when I’m able to get over hurtles of this nature when it comes to the computers on today’s performance cars. It’s become absolutely instrumental that us performance tuners/installers be able to manipulate the stock computers when even small and moderate performance parts are installed. With out being able to get into the computers on the newest vehicles… your performance mods are limited to usually things like air-filter, pulleys and decals!! You can do more but with out messing with the CPU theirs usually a drivability concern or two, or the performance gain can be negligible.

As far as the ’04 Marauder computer goes and the ability to chip it …. I can only go by what I’ve come in contact with in the last few months. Every one I’ve seen so far has the same service/chip port we’re used to. If theirs some ‘04s with the port gone, I haven’t seen one yet.

Most Ford’s will no longer have the port by ’05 sadly. Myself I will hate to see it go :( The beauty about the current chip type port is that you can easily make a multi mode or switch chip that can be switched on the fly for a performance mode change or vale mode etc… I’m gona miss it.

This will probably be the last post or response from me for a few days.
I’m leaving for the NMAR Ford race in Bradenton FL this Wednesday.


Thanks

[jgc61sr2002]

Lidio - Have a safe trip. Enjoy the sun and warm weather. :up:

[hitchhiker]

Well, I picked up my 04 MM from Alternative Auto tonight. The work performed was just the addition of an 04 performance chip and a dyno tune session. Before I picked up the car, I was expecting a better "feel" to the car during typical spirited driving. I had already gotten a small taste of this on Sat when I dropped the car off and had limited time to tinker with a few of the shift points, shift firmness, etc. I had left the car with the shop for a few days to get everything ironed out.

So, when I got there tonight, Lidio handed me the keys, and with a big satisfied grin on his face, he said "I think you'll be happy".

That was an understatement!!!

The car is much more fun to drive now. By changing a few shift points, the shift firmness, and delaying the converter lock up until 4th gear at 65mph, the entire responsiveness of the car was greatly improved. The biggest difference is that the very annoying early converter lock up in 2nd gear is gone. From a 30mph roll, a stab of the throttle bolts the car foward instead of bogging, or downshifting.

From a dig there is also imporvement. I could always get a little rubber from a dig before (stock) with the 04. Now, it only takes a 3 quarters of a pedal to light em up :burnout: It also gets a nice bark in 2nd gear too (Lidio...did you plan that way;) ) And mind you, all of this is with the stock 3.55s out back....no 4.10s here!

As far as the dyno tuning, I knew the 04s already came more aggressively tuned from the factory (hence the dual knock sensors). And I also had told Lidio to play it real safe. So I wasn't sure what gains to expect, if any. In the end, Lidio was able to get another 12 ft lbs of torque (253 v 265), and 8hp (240 v 248) at the peaks. But that really doesn't even tell the story. What's far more important is the higher, flatter, broader torque curve along the entire range from 2800 to 6500. And at many points along the curve, the gain is above 20+ ft lbs. That's enough grunt to feel by the seat of the pants.

So those gains were not bad at all for a chip tune!!!!

Put those modest, but noticeable, power gains along with the much improved trans operation, and it's a totally killer combo! I am sure 4.10s would make even a bigger difference, but that's not in the cards for me personallyl. I drive the car to work and I take customers out often. I don't want to ruin the car's sophisticated manners by dropping in a large stall converter, 4.10s, and a noisy exhuast. (If speed was the only thing I needed, I'd drive my modded 86 GT with all of its rattles, harshness, and loony rpms at high speeds:) ) However, for those those looking for a bit more "edge", the 4.10 gears would really do it.

My only complaint is that without the lockup in 2nd and 3rd, the rpms stay a bit higher and the associated exhaust noise is noticeable. It's not "bad" per se. Most would like it. I actually do think it sounds cool too. But, I have to take other execs out to lunch, so I would have preferred no noise gain. That's a pretty niggling thing to worry about, but I thought eveyone should know what I experienced. And I wouldn't trade back the new performance for less noise any day!

On the way home I took the looooooong way:) I liked the performance so much, I actually thought for a moment..."do I want that supercharger for sure?" Yes....the chip tune made that much difference! It felt as if it gave the performance feel that the factory should have. Now, of course I am going to do SC anyway, but, for those who don't have the budget for a blower, Lidio has developed exceptional performance chip tune for the MM that will really enhance the car in my opinion. For a few hundred bucks it was well worth it (heck I've spent that much money wax and polish).
Where can I order this chip with installation instructions?

Thanks,

David

[MI2QWK4U]

Call Lidio at Alternative Auto here in Michigan, 586-463-0010, tell him Dave and Mike sent you! He is one of the best tuners around and this is a great product. I was the first one to get the Trilogy blower with Lidio's chip installed after the prototype.
Dave

[TAF]

Very cool and kudos to Lidio. Nice to finally speak with Lidio myself as well.

So, let's get this straight for ALL '04 owners:

1) A plug in chip can be installed on an '04???

2) This makes the so called 'future of programming & banishment of chips ' SCT tuner a farse reality?1) Yes

2) My understanding is beginning in '05 most (and soon ALL) Ford models will no longer have the port to accept chips...that's why the FordChip boys started the new division with Superchips for the tuners.

NOTE: "KUDOS" to Lidio for doing a nice job on this '04 and creating another satisfied "Alternative customer" :up:

[grimmace]

Is The Chip Install Easy? Can It Be Doen On Your Own? Also What Else Needs To Be Done?...is It Just Pop It In And Go?...the Tranny On These Cars In My Opnion Is Horribly Out Of Tune Like So Many Of You Say And Its Bothering Me Enough To Seriously Consider It. The Torque Converter Lock-up And Downshifting Is Rediculous. My Question Is The Factory Warranty?...does It Void The Warranty And Can You Just Pop It Out With Ease When You Go To The Dealer?...is There More Wear On The Tranny Because Of The Changed Shift Points?...sorry For All The Questions I Just Want To Be Comfortable With The Decision

Gary

[TAF]

Gary,


Welcome aboard! The answers to all of your questions are located in about 473 threads here...feel free to use the "Search" above...do some reading, if you don't find what you need...ask one of us.:up:

[grimmace]

Taf,

I Actually Have Done A Lot Of Reading On The Subject And This Is The First That I Have Heard Of A Chip Install On The '04. I Thought The Reinhart Tuner Was The Only Way To Go. I Did Read A While Back About A Chip Install On An '04 But It Was Too Complicated For Me To Do And Would Have Voided The Warranty. I'm Just Looking To Fix The Tranny. I'm Happy With The Performance. Has Anyone Gone To The Dealer About This. If So Have They Had Successful Reprogram?

[Lidio]

Hey guys… one more post before I leave,

The chip install is very easy and requires just a few basic tools. The key thing is to properly clean the electrical port where the chip plugs into. It has a kinda waxy coating on it that needs to be cleaned with really just a scotch bright pad lightly.

I’ve uploaded the instructions for our chip install. It’s pretty much the same thing you get with a Trilogy blower for the MM’s. It’s in PDF format;

Marauder Chip Install (http://www.alternativeauto.com/lidspix/MMchip.pdf)


As far as the warranty goes with just a chip install, we don’t know for sure. Most dealers look the other way with chips on their non volatile cars. But cars like the ’03 Cobra and Lightning's and Turbo diesel trucks, Chips on those can be very power enhancing and damaging as well so they look for chips on these vehicles when theirs a power train problem.

What we do for the trans shift firmness, shift points and torque converter lock-up or lack there of, for all intensive purposes has proven to not be detrimental to the life of the trans and the lock-up mechanism in the torque converter. I feel that the 4R70W’s last longer when you do what we do because its less quirky over all and less slippy when shifting over all. We’ve done it for years before the MM came along in the ’94 and newer Mustangs and its simply proven to work great and last plenty long in day to day street and strip cars.




Thanks

[grimmace]

Can The Chip Be Removed If I Had To Go To The Dealer For A Warranty Issue And Can It Be Re-used After The Visit. This Is My Only Concern Before I Purchase The Chip. Voiding The Warranty Is Not Something I Want To Do. How Do You I Check If My '04 Will Accept The Chip. There Have Been Posts About Some '04s That Couldn't Accept Chips

[Lidio]

The chip can be removed and then put back in. It still leaves the port open but like I said earlier... the dealers tend to not care on most average cars.

OK going to Bradenton FL :banana: :D


See you guys later....

[MikesMerc]

You should be able to just pop the chip out if/when you want to go to the dealer. If you have no other mods, than it is a very simple thing to do. If you do have mods (like gears, exhuast, blower) it could be a bad thing depending on what calibrations were made to accomodate the other parts. Your speedo would be off (gear change) or perhaps you might run too lean or too much timing...who knows. It would likely be safe for a quick trip to the dealer though.

Just pop it back in when your ready:)

[CRUZTAKER]

Speaking for the N/A cars, yes you can pull the chip with whatever mods you have also done and still drive the car. No problems.

The tuner is far less detectable of course, but for now, chip programming is far more flexible as the tuners are still new and do not offer the vast amount of personal tweeking the chips do.

Ignore our past comments, myself included, that say one cannot chip the '04. Another vendor told us that, and we took it (his words) for granted. Lidio has proven otherwise.

[MI2QWK4U]

Taf,

I Actually Have Done A Lot Of Reading On The Subject And This Is The First That I Have Heard Of A Chip Install On The '04. I Thought The Reinhart Tuner Was The Only Way To Go. I Did Read A While Back About A Chip Install On An '04 But It Was Too Complicated For Me To Do And Would Have Voided The Warranty. I'm Just Looking To Fix The Tranny. I'm Happy With The Performance. Has Anyone Gone To The Dealer About This. If So Have They Had Successful Reprogram?

Nope, the tuner is not the only way to go, some find that the chip covers more areas that can be fine tuned by a capable tuner. Installing the chip is a breeze, once you open the port to access it, it just pops in and out, even when going to the dealership. You should give Lidio a call.. I have driven a bone stock marauder with just Lidio's chip in it, and Mike isnt bullsh*itting, it wakes the car up tremendously!

[MI2QWK4U]

Speaking for the N/A cars, yes you can pull the chip with whatever mods you have also done and still drive the car. No problems.

The tuner is far less detectable of course, but for now, chip programming is far more flexible as the tuners are still new and do not offer the vast amount of personal tweeking the chips do.

Ignore our past comments, myself included, that say one cannot chip the '04. Another vendor told us that, and we took it (his words) for granted. Lidio has proven otherwise.

I dont think that we really realized so many folks thought the 04 couldnt be chipped. I must have missed the posts from whatever vendor was incorrect about that, im sure it was a simple oversight on their part. I know I have been at the shop when lidio has looked at more than a couple pcm's from 04's that were chipable, and I talked to a mechanic at mercury that affirmed that fact. Todd is correct that ford's 05's will not be chippable and thats why the tuner things are coming to the forfront. My opinion is forget the tuner for your 04, and get a chip that will grow and be reprogrammed along with your car and mods.

[MikesMerc]

I have driven a bone stock marauder with just Lidio's chip in it, and Mike isnt bullsh*itting, it wakes the car up tremendously!

Yes it does....with better results than I would have imagined. I've had a few 5.0 mustangs chip tuned in the past before going to the blower stage, and the performance was always so-so. Not bad, but not "wow".

Lidio's chip tune for the MM is a definite "WOW".

Anyway, I'll report back, after I've had the car for a week or so, to update my experiences with the 04 chip.

[junehhan]

Wow, your positive post makes me want to start going mod-crazy on my Marauder! With everything you are saying, maybe I won't need to go to a set of 4.10 gears after all, since I do like getting the highway fuel economy that i'm getting now. Whenever I get the time though, i'm gonna have to make a trip up to Michigan and have Lidio dyno-tune a chip for me, along with a few smaller mods.

[MikesMerc]

Well, after almost a week of driving it now, I am convinced this was a great mod. Simple, yet very effective. No driveability issues noted. Just a better all around feel. This definitely is the route I would go if I planned on staying normally aspirated and wanted to keep the refined OEM feeling to the car.

[MI2QWK4U]

You ready for your blower Mike?!

[CRUZTAKER]

You ready for your blower Mike?!
I don't know about Mike...but I had already liked the Trilogy setup, and with Lid on the job giving us what we need, and not what we think we want....

I'd trade every mod I have for that Lid setup! And the sad part, at this point I have spent that much money already.:fire:

[MikesMerc]

You ready for your blower Mike?!

It goes in to Lidio's shop this Saturday morning to begin blower surgery!! :banana2: I've talked to Jerry and Lidio and everything is ready to go. I'll be the first 04 with a Trilogy I beleive...I think that's kinda neat :coolman:

I'll be going with the slight smaller mid size blower pulley for 11.5 psi. Plus I'm gonna ad a few other custom goodies along the way too. For the time being, I'll be keepin the 3.55 as I do a lot of E way travel and I want to keep traction under control until I get the rims widened. I may end up with the 4.10 and the widen rims later in the summer...we'll see.

I am totally stoked to get the car over to the shop now. The car should be done by the time the weather finally turns nice next week :rock:

Man, this is more exciting than a six year old's christmas day ! :burnout: :burnout: :burnout:

[MI2QWK4U]

I don't know about Mike...but I had already liked the Trilogy setup, and with Lid on the job giving us what we need, and not what we think we want....

I'd trade every mod I have for that Lid setup! And the sad part, at this point I have spent that much money already.:fire:


A lot of people have done that very thing....spent as much on small individual mods as they would have spent on the Trilogy blower alone. MUCH BIGGER BANG for little bitty bucks! But seriously, I began with the backbone modification, the supercharger, and now I am adding things that accentuate and add to the supercharger. But I could have been happy with just the blower, but its so easy to add to it for very little dollars. Apton porting, Pro-M MAF, Fuel pump, exhaust....equals 450 RWHP....easy call...

[AlPicone]

Does anyone have any track times with the chip installed?

[bigslim]

Nice to hear that you going to get the blower this week Mike. Mine will be going real soon for the chip and 410 upgrade.

[Glenn]

I too researched in detail the best approach to computer tuning - to go with the chip or flash tune. It has been my experience after 5 months that the dyno flash tune route is the best method. The flash tune has not been discussed in much detailed and it may not be completely understood. It is similar to the "Tuner" approach, but in my experience contains many more performance enhancing programing changes to the engine, transmission, etc., which are directly downloaded from a laptop to the car's computer. A drawnback is it can not be altered without another dyno-tune - no chip switch. The results are what counts. Baseline stock engine at 240 RWHP, after dyno-tune by "mysterious Jerry" and UDPs - 266 RWHP and 288 RWTQ with very strong shifting and no TC issues. Consistent 20-21 mpg. A 26 HP gain with UDPs. Instant engine rev and tremendous acceleration that feels much stronger than 266 hp.

In addition, today I had my first "strong bark" from an auto 2nd-3rd shift (not 1st-2nd gear) at WOT. I should say it was one of the first days I had with my window down without the radio on playing Donna Summer. (I know Woaface - who is Donna Summer??? An old man's 70's Disco singer. What is Disco? Look in the geriatrics section of your music store.)

Glenn

[Lidio]

It is similar to the "Tuner" approach, but in my experience contains many more performance enhancing programing changes to the engine, transmission, etc.,

Glenn

I usually try not to start arguments here or any forums for that matter but as competent tuner I have to argue that what ever it is that you’re referring to that makes a flasher have more adjustment then a chip is untrue.

Most of the software that’s out there from all the different chip guys can access and manipulate all the same stuff. Weather it’s an add-on chip, hand held flash device or laptop flash device of some sort.

As far as I’m concerned, the only advantage to a portable hand held flashing device is that you can put back you computers original file to not let the dealer see your computer mods or what you’ve done to the car. This in my area and customer base has proving to be no big deal. Yes you can put back the stock program in the computer. But what good does that do if the car has many other add-ons or bolt-on’s that go with the program. Hiding what you’ve done to the computer alone is no big deal at the dealership unless it’s a vehicle that stands to really come to life with a chip or flash tune like the current Turbo diesel Ford trucks (These diesel trucks can come to life in such a large way from chip tuning alone, that when overly aggressed… sever engine failure is eminent). These are watched closely at the dealers when they come in with a motor problem.

Does this mean that a guy is going to go through the trouble of removing his pulleys, gears, K&N, Stat, etc. along with his Flash too?? What about the blower add-on guys. They would have to remove their blowers as well as the flash to. This is big time work compared to the flash part of it only.

Back to my original argument. Flashing can’t do any more or less then a chip as far as I’m concerned. Chipping is far easier and can have multiple programs as you mentioned. From what I’ve seen and heard flashing takes a little longer with current technology then simply burning a chip.

I…. sadly hate to see the chip port go away on the Fords to come in the next few months. Some of the best working NOS set-ups I do work off of a switch chip I do where we put two programs in the chip, one for N/A and one for NOS. It can be switched on the fly. On modern EFI Ford’s when we do a NOS setup we make a dry system where we only inject NOS into the intake manifold and all the fuel enrichment and timing retard is handled through the chip. This makes for a clean and simple looking NOS system and a seamless “NOS turn on” when the throttle is nailed. This is how I intend to spray about 30-50HP of NOS into my MM on top of the trilogy set-up. This type of "on the fly" switch chipping will not be possible on newer Ford’s. I know that soon enough I will have no choice but to flash newer Ford’s, but chipping will always be easier and far more flexible for tuning centers like mine.

Sorry for the argument but my feet are wet with this stuff on a daily basis, and I wont leave people with only one answer or opinion if I know there’s more out there.

Thanks

[thebeeper]

Hi Mike ..........I just bought a 04 MM . I will be living around the Vegas NV area ( Boulder City ) . What chip did you buy ???? Is there a spec sheet for the setup of it ???? I will be having someone do this for me ( do not know who yet in the Vegas area does this ) , do they need to find out what the setting are for this chip ???? This is all new to me .......Thanks ....Dave

[MikesMerc]

I would call Lidio at Alternative Auto and get the details. I'm not sure of who does this kind of tuning in the NV area, but you'll want someone with a chassis dyno who can fine tune everything for you. You might be able to get a chip for the 04 from Lidio that comes with a "basic" tune which would include your improved shift points and firmness, removed top end governer, TC lock up point, and a bit of power tuning (although any significant power tuning should be done at a tuning shop for safety). Once you have the chip in hand (which is very easily self installed), you can see how you like it. If everything is great...you're done. If you want more fine tuning, you can take it to a shop in the area.

Hope this helps.

[thebeeper]

Thanks for the reply Mike . ............I'll try to check it out once I get out to Vegas . ........SPEED SAFELY ! .........Dave

[Glenn]

Lidio:

My only point is that there is another approach to computer tuning that not many people know about or read about on this net. The laptop dyno flash has many more options and tables to customize an owner's MM than a Chip or Tuner unless someone like yourself downloads the data directly into the chip or Tuner at the request of an owner. I had my car tailored to my driving style. I am sure that you could do the same, but I do not believe that most chips are sold that way or Tuners are that flexible. Perhaps, I am wrong. I am just expressing my opinion from a limited knowledge base. But, again results are what count. 26 RWHP increase from a dyno tune and UDP (est. 33 HP increase at the flywheel). I have not seen this result from a chip or Tuner. Correct me if a chip or tuner has done better then these HP results. If so, I have not seen it on the Net.

Glenn

[WhoMe]

Glenn,

Chip or flash we use the same software to tune it, and the results are EXACTLY the same. A reflash does eliminate the chip to EEC connection, but that's hardly ever a problem for most people. I chip and reflash my MM several times a week for testing various things, and which I use only depends on what I'm testing. The car doesn't care.

David
SCT

[MikesMerc]

Glenn,

Chip or flash we use the same software to tune it, and the results are EXACTLY the same.

So true.


Lidio:
26 RWHP increase from a dyno tune and UDP (est. 33 HP increase at the flywheel). I have not seen this result from a chip or Tuner. Correct me if a chip or tuner has done better then these HP results. If so, I have not seen it on the Net.
Glenn

As far as whether or not anyone with a "chip" tune has met or exceeded a 26 RWHP increase is irrelevant and does not take into account the safety margin of the tune, the local gas quality of the customer which was in the tank at the time of the tune, nor the differences that can be found from motor to motor performance regardless of aftermarket tune. Frankly, with enough timing and a high enough A/F ratio I'm sure those results, or even better, could be had. Furthermore, the whole concept of peak HP gains ignores what matters more, and that's the total amount of gain obtained under the entire torque curve.

[Glenn]

This is my last comment on this subject. I can see people are not reading my responses, but jumping to unfounded conclusions based on their own feelings and not the facts. For whatever reason and I admit I do not fully understand all of the technical aspects of computer tuning (chip, tuner, or dyno), I can only comment on my personal experiences for the benefit of sharing the information with the members of this Net. My position stands that the dyno-tune produces more HP and a stronger all around performing car. I have my dyno tune charts that support my position. I have also driven my MM for 5 months under all kinds of conditions, etc. and the tune and performance has not changed. If a Chip or Tuner produces similar HP gains why have I not seen the results on this Net?

Glenn

[sailsmen]

A Dyno Tune is tuning your individual vehicle. Each vehicle is different.

A chip or a tuner is tuning the model vehicle including any applicable modifications.

It's the difference between a taylored suit for your specific body and an off the rack suit in your "size".

Given the same individual is doing the Dyno Tune, Chip or Tuner the Dyno Tune will usually result in a better tune just like the taylored suit will be a better fit. :D

[MikesMerc]

A Dyno Tune is tuning your individual vehicle. Each vehicle is different.

A chip or a tuner is tuning the model vehicle including any applicable modifications.

It's the difference between a taylored suit for your specific body and an off the rack suit in your "size".

Given the same individual is doing the Dyno Tune, Chip or Tuner the Dyno Tune will usually result in a better tune just like the taylored suit will be a better fit. :D

Well said. This is what I tried to say, but you have said it much better.


Glen:

No one is jumping to anything. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean that thier post is an emotional over reaction.

I believe you may under the false impression that a chip or flash tune does not include actual dyno time if one so desires to have it. I would agree that just a "mail order" option chip tune would yield only moderate results, as without actual dyno time the parameters for adjustment would need to be rather vanilla to be safe for every application.

On the other hand, with proper dyno time a "chip tune" can certainly produce the same results as any other method. Changes can be made with the software on the fly while on the chassis dyno, with the final parameters burned to a chip.

I'm just not sure what you mean by "dyno tune" I guess.

As far as why you don't see anyone else on the net with such results...who knows. As I said, there is far more to a tune than peak HP increases.

Btw, just sharing info...no offense meant.

[SergntMac]

It's the difference between a taylored suit for your specific body and an off the rack suit in your "size". Given the same individual is doing the Dyno Tune, Chip or Tuner the Dyno Tune will usually result in a better tune just like the taylored suit will be a better fit.
Exactly...And I believe this was what Glenn was trying to express as well.

Maybe the software is no secret anymore, everyone can buy some access to the base software that can tune any FMC product, to do anything. That's a given. The problem here, is delivery of the custom program.

An "off the shelf" program on a chip is a fixed set of parameters, "specifically vague" parameters if you will. The base tune is safe, and sure to deliver improved performance. However, should you need to change anything, the chip will have to be returned to the programmer, who may be across the street, or, across the country.

We saw a lot of this traffic "way back when" we began tuning our MMs. We all bought chips long distance, and accepted the base improvement, and came to be very pleased with it's performance. But, once we got the "Mod" disease, and started adding other stuff after the chips, like gears, the chip had to go back to the programmer and that usually involved a lot of other BS like loss in the shipping lanes, and damaged on receipt chips.

Now we have a "hand held tuner" that offers us more variables at the instant. This leads to a better tune and improved performance over the chip, while also removing most of that cross country travel, just to meet specific (and sometimes minor) needs. With the hand held tuner in hand, it's usually an instant repair. If it's something major, or, long term, the hand held tuner gets sent back for updating, not your chip.

A "dyno tune" is by far the best way to go. This "suit" can be tailored perfectly for the individual MM, and make adjustments based on the owner/driver's personal input. Moreover, this can fine tune all sides of a "flip chip" in the order the owner understands, or prefers. This tailoring may add gobs of power to one MM, or, only a few HP and TQ numbers to the Mm right behind it, so, one experience is not proof of global results. Nonetheless, a visit with the tailor, is the best there is. All things considered, you can't beat the "laying of hands" on an MM during a dyno tune...IMHO.

[sailsmen]

For those who might not know. A Dyno Tune is reading the specific data on your vehicle while it is on a Dyno and using that data to "tune".

The "tune" can then be utilized or applied to the vehicle by flashing the vehicle's PCM, burning it on a chip or loading it in a tuner.

[MikesMerc]

Now we have a "hand held tuner" that offers us more variables at the instant. This leads to a better tune and improved performance over the chip, while also removing most of that cross country travel, just to meet specific (and sometimes minor) needs. With the hand held tuner in hand, it's usually an instant repair.

Does this method assume the owner "knows what he is doing" with the tuner in hand? I can see the benefit of a tuner in hand when the owner is knowledgable enough. However, if it needs to be in the hands of someone with the proper experience, or just plain needs to be on the dyno to have it done right, then the tuner has no benefit over a chip. Or does it? I dunno.

And thats not to mention you cannot have the various flip chip tunes with the tuner. And I would never feel comfortable without my valet mode:)

I suppose both are good choices depending on your needs, Perhaps if using a tuner didn't require having a tuner (person) then I would find it more useful.