Let's chat about N/A Marauders

[Mebot]

I'd like to get a discussion going regarding NA (non-supercharged) Marauders. I feel there are a lot of threads and discussions about boost, superchargers and different power adders lately. I feel like there is some neglect for the N/A folks on the board.

Specifically, I'd like to get some information from folks that have done extensive modification work on their Marauders but have not installed a supercharger. Is there a reason why you do not want to go the supercharger route? Money? labor? etc...

I'm looking for a healthy discussion here, please be objective. Thanks

[DOOM]

Paul and Chris should be all over this! :up:

Too bad Cruztaker (Barry) isn't here anymore. His car was a beast N/A before he went S/C

Also Joe Walsh has a Badass 12sec. N/A Marauder!

Last but certainly not least my man Fastmerc! :bows:

[Mebot]

Paul and Chris should be all over this! :up:

Too bad Cruztaker (Barry) isn't here anymore. His car was a beast N/A before he went S/C

Also Joe Walsh has a Badass 12sec. N/A Marauder!

Last but certainly not least my man Fastmerc! :bows:

I think it's awesome that NA Marauders are pushing those kind of numbers! I would love to get their inputs and rationale for pushing the stock motor to its limits without supercharging.

[ctrlraven]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50340
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54814
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56045

These were the main threads about NA and 12's NA in order.

I am still plan on staying NA but make it a stout one.

[DOOM]

I would love to get their inputs and rationale for pushing the stock motor to its limits without supercharging.

Don't think you're anywhere close to pushing a stock Marauder block to its limits being N/A.

You start rolling the dice on a stock Marauder block when you hit 460RWHP!

And some folks (Zack and Killjoy) have pushed over 500RWHP on the stock block!

[rocky]

I'm staying tuned for this one
Personally I'd rather throw the money towards a 6speed conversion...but if money were no object I'd have a blown 6speed :)
But money is a big object...


Sent from my iPhone 5

[SC Cheesehead]

Paul and Chris should be all over this! :up:

Too bad Cruztaker (Barry) isn't here anymore. His car was a beast N/A before he went S/C

Also Joe Walsh has a Badass 12sec. N/A Marauder!

Last but certainly not least my man Fastmerc! :bows:

Don't forget Russ (03mmmonroe), he's pushing low 13's with his N/A car, and it's still a 4.6L.

[Panther dude]

I like this thread and will subscribe. I'm feeling the mod bug with a 4 member family budget. Bring it on!

[Dave1kRR]

I like this thread already!!

[Mebot]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50340
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54814
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56045

These were the main threads about NA and 12's NA in order.

I am still plan on staying NA but make it a stout one.

thanks for the link! great reading material. Ctrl...any particular reason that you aren't going the s/c route? just curious

sent from space

[MMcactusflower]

Great thread...I am sure I will glean some very useful (in future) info here.

[Mebot]

Great thread...I am sure I will glean some very useful (in future) info here.

yep thats the idea... I don't have a supercharger myself but hoping to get some of the NA folks to chime in. I want rationale but also some good input for the folks that don't have a s/c.

sent from space

[ctrlraven]

thanks for the link! great reading material. Ctrl...any particular reason that you aren't going the s/c route? just curious

sent from space
No problem! Those have the most NA info in them.

I had always wanted to see how far I could push my car NA and then maybe go boosted off from that point. Over the years I racked up too many miles to feel safe about throwing on an s/c and I know shortly after something would let go in the motor. So I just saved up and after my last time at the track I was not running faster than my fastest time I knew I was ready for a rebuild or new setup.

There is only a few people on the site who have "bored out" motors, every one else went with a stroker kit. I had wanted to do both but I'd have to cut back in other areas of the build. So I chose to go the route of doing a 5.1L big bore, heads will have the minimal work required to flow more as much really isn't needed, different cams, ported intake manifold, 10.5 - 11.0 CR is the goal range depending on what cc I end up with for the heads. After talking with a few different tuners and builders about flow numbers and such I will have to go with LT headers as the stock logs will choke some.

There is something about raw natural power I have always liked.

[breeze]

I had all the supercharger parts but elected to sell because I had to get both heads rebuilt and was tired on putting money into car. But later threw on LTs, ud pulleys and intake spacer. Loved the upgrade but getting bored so until I find me a ported blower n/a I stay. Also hitting track tomorrow so new time slips coming!

[CBT]

Blackened's (Paul) Marauder sounds great and hauls ass.

[Joe Walsh]

I'd like to get a discussion going regarding NA (non-supercharged) Marauders. I feel there are a lot of threads and discussions about boost, superchargers and different power adders lately. I feel like there is some neglect for the N/A folks on the board.

Specifically, I'd like to get some information from folks that have done extensive modification work on their Marauders but have not installed a supercharger.
Is there a reason why you do not want to go the supercharger route? Money? labor? etc...

I'm looking for a healthy discussion here, please be objective. Thanks

I had to pull my engine because of a wasted oil pump and decided to "build" a strong N/A engine with the thought of eventually adding a blower on top of it.

The best results from forced induction come on a healthy, well built N/A engine....especially if you can add some cubes to our tiny V8s.

Having said that, and IF I could do it all over again (with a fresh OEM 4.6L engine) I would start with a blower.

If your OEM engine is in good mechanical shape, I would leave it alone and put on a Trilogy/Eaton type supercharger along with a good dyno tune. (ex: Lidio @ Alternative Auto)

Plus I would add all the various bolts-ons like headers, 2.5" exhaust system, CAI.

If you plan on 500+ RWHP and drag racing it alot....then you should start by building a stout N/A engine.

My :twocents:

[ctrlraven]

If you plan on 500+ RWHP and drag racing it alot....then you should start by building a stout N/A engine.

My :twocents:
This is my reason for the reason. I could do a simple 4.6 rebuild but if I do it I want something more out of it which is more cubes! :burnout:

[babbage]

Me I think I would drive it too fast if I got S/C. Now that I have a lot of N/A mods its plenty fast/quick. I still have really good mileage and no belts to slip/shred. (less complex). That and I drive mine year round. I just drove with my family cross county 3,200 miles in 10 days time. (21 mpg @ 80+) Changed oil before I left and after I got back! Very few do this type of driving with an SC MM.

[03mmmonroe]

Don't forget Russ (03mmmonroe), he's pushing low 13's with his N/A car, and it's still a 4.6L.


Thanks Rex, I have run my best time of 13.40 run @101.8 back in Nov of 2011. This year backed it up with at 13.56 @101.9. Heading to the track this weekend and looking to beat my 13.40 run.
Reason for staying NA was mine. I found I like to drag race and with over 600 1/4 miles in the past 4 years the engine and transmission held up well. The car has 96k miles. I had the transmission freshened up at 82k and the motor at 92K. With my labor have less than $2400 in the transmission and engine repairs. I am getting ready for the Hot Rod Power Tour again this year. Looking at just over 4k miles in a week cannot wait.

Russ

[Blackened300a]

I like the "all motor" aspect of it. That's been my motivation to staying NA for so long. Nothing like seeing a SC car only run a tenth faster or sometimes slower then your car at the track. ;)
The downside is 10yr old technology in a heavy car. I hate the fact that a stock V6 mustang or Camaro is running 13s when I had to dump a ton of money into a NA Marauder to run with them. :(

Exhaust, intake, gears, torque convertor, and tune are the core mods to making a NA Marauder run 13's. All the other little bolt-ons like the intake spacer, throttlebody, pulleys, and performance water-pump's are just a few extra ponies to get you a little deeper in. Most of my mod money was put into a appearance mods rather then performance mods. For the non show car NA guys, just do those mods and the car is a completely different animal. Problem is you will have to like being NA because the cost of those mods can run close to what a eaton swap will cost.

In April I plan on trying out some 17" tires to lower my gear ratio, and run some race gas. Just still trying to figure out octane/timing ratio to gain some power and not run into any issues.

Aside from opening the engine, I'm maxed out as far as NA mods. I can go to a 3500 stall and 4.30's, but that's another $1500 for minimal gains. I also have the Spaz intake repaired, but it only makes power above 6500 RPMs which I'm not turning and actually robs power down low on a NA car. Just more experimenting with mods over the last 8yrs that you learn that some things are not worth it in the end.

MzivI8eKJts

to1j9MCCEr4

[babbage]

Paul you could get a ported lower, cutouts and what about jesel cam followers? ;)

[kmastl]

Blackened300a have you thought about doing anything with the cams? Properly degreed and advanced cobra intake cams might be the ticket for you NA magic dragon chase. I have even heard about good gains from degreeing stock cams on these motors.

[Blackened300a]

Paul you could get a ported lower, cutouts and what about jesel cam followers? ;)

Another $1200k invested but whats the gains? :confused:

[Blackened300a]

Blackened300a have you thought about doing anything with the cams? Properly degreed and advanced cobra intake cams might be the ticket for you NA magic dragon chase. I have even heard about good gains from degreeing stock cams on these motors.

This is true, just finding someone locally that is capable and cost effective is the problem. JDM engineering quoted me almost $4K for a cam swap. :eek:

[99SVT]

I'm saving the NA build for my Mach 1, using the original engine from my Marauder. A simple bolt on 11:1 stroker motor with mild cams in a light chassis should make for a fun street car.

I'm pretty much done building up the Marauder now. There's a few things to improve on to get a few more tenths at the track, but my goal was to supercharge it and get a mid to low 12 sec land barge.

Sent from my LT15a using Tapatalk 2

[BODYMAN]

Don't think you're anywhere close to pushing a stock Marauder block to its limits being N/A.

You start rolling the dice on a stock Marauder block when you hit 460RWHP!

And some folks (Zack and Killjoy) have pushed over 500RWHP on the stock block!

lol!!! Youre talking my 03 I sold last year. At 80,xxx when I sold it she still ran like a beast..

[Joe Walsh]

Paul you could get a ported lower, cutouts and what about jesel cam followers? ;)

I've checked out those Jesel roller cam followers.
At close to $4,000...:eek:
I'd say that those Jesel pieces are a tad bit pricey.
Heck for that kind of money you could easily do an Eaton swap kit!

[babbage]

I've checked out those Jesel roller cam followers.
At close to $4,000...:eek:
I'd say that those Jesel pieces are a tad bit pricey.
Heck for that kind of money you could easily do an Eaton swap kit!

Another 20-25 hp? Expensive but possible. ;)

[03mmmonroe]

This is true, just finding someone locally that is capable and cost effective is the problem. JDM engineering quoted me almost $4K for a cam swap. :eek:

I have the 98 cobra cams and they are degreed I will let you know what I get after my dyno pulls in a few weeks if the time was worth the reward. I did find that bank to bank I have a 6 deg change in timing. Driver side was set -2 deg and the pass side is +4 deg at the crank to get both bank balanced.
Paul is correct a lot of money if you have to pay someone. I had the tools due to working with FORD and a shop manual and the engine was on a stand made it the right time to degree the cams.

Russ

[gdsqdcr]

I won't go s/c cause I live in Cali. I also like the all motor aspect. Mine is not fast compared all you N/A monsters on here but it keeps me satisfied. The only major mod left me to do, if money was no object, 6spd manual. That would put. Smile on my face.

[92BlackGT]

the Marauder is my DD and I can't have that much down time. I also need to keep telling myself that the Mustang is my fun car and I have way too much work to do to swap everything from the GT to the coupe. But I do have some SW's on order to make the 'rauder a bit more potent :)

[whitey]

The reason im na is $$$. Its nice to have all motor, but s/c would be my choice. I thought about NOS, at around 120k, but i was getting mixed info on reliability. Now at 143k, i can only imagine id have 5 seconds of fun until a rebuild. My motor is tired, and when the time comes to replace it, im going to look into a strong one to run nos.

[Dave1kRR]

Has anyone on the forum done the "Boss 5.0L" as shown on Lidio's site? Just wondering for future reference! :)

[ctrlraven]

Has anyone on the forum done the "Boss 5.0L" as shown on Lidio's site? Just wondering for future reference! :)
I am doing a Boss 5.1L. My block is the Boss50 iron block with using the big bore pistons.

[Dave1kRR]

I am doing a Boss 5.1L. My block is the Boss50 iron block with using the big bore pistons.

How far along have you gotten? I'm weighing my options whether to save for a S/C setup or just plan on building a great, reliable all-motor while still driving around with the 4.6L during the bottom-end build. What cylinder heads do you plan on using?

[ctrlraven]

How far along have you gotten? I'm weighing my options whether to save for a S/C setup or just plan on building a great, reliable all-motor while still driving around with the 4.6L during the bottom-end build. What cylinder heads do you plan on using?
I am still in the process of gathering all the parts right now. Currently I have the Boss50 block, low mileage 04 Cobra heads (heads will get slight porting and valve job, new springs, new valves, new seals, retain exhaust cams, 98 cobra intake cams and related cam stuff to degree them), 04 Cobra crank, Manley rods, Diamond big bore pistons (have low CR ones that came with a pkg deal and trying to sell them to get a higher CR set) and then a bunch of little parts like injectors, sensors, etc etc. There won't be much that will be swapped over from my stock motor. I still have other parts to get, just taking my time to research what works best with other stuff and waiting until I find a good deal on stuff.

I'm sure I am forgetting some stuff, as I need to actually write down what I have and what else I need to get then start crossing stuff off as I get it. I am just doing everything by memory right now.

Just by gaining some cubes will be a decent power increase but by increasing the amount of air that I can get in and out on top of the 305/306 ci displacement via more flow through the intake, heads, headers and proper tuning of the fuel, realistic numbers from talking to a few tuners/builders should be in the 335-350rwhp range.

[Dave1kRR]

^^Thanks! I still need to do a lot more research, but I have plenty of time. I'm going to plan on starting within the next year or so. I just dropped a bunch of coin on it, also looking to buy a new house, so funds will not be available as of now! lol. Thanks for sharing, hopefully yours will be coming together soon!! I will be interested in that build for sure!

[rocky]

So is the intake spacer worth it?
Never was a fan of those but I see a few of you have them...


Sent from my iPhone 5

[ctrlraven]

So is the intake spacer worth it?
Never was a fan of those but I see a few of you have them...


Sent from my iPhone 5
I would say it is ONLY worth getting IF you have a intake kit and headers. All it is doing is increase the chambered air in the upper intake area. It is one of those mods that only really benefits if you have other supporting mods. No one really has any actual dyno before and after proof of any power increase it does.

[rocky]

I would say it is ONLY worth getting IF you have a intake kit and headers. All it is doing is increase the chambered air in the upper intake area. It is one of those mods that only really benefits if you have other supporting mods. No one really has any actual dyno before and after proof of any power increase it does.

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone 5

[Blackened300a]

So is the intake spacer worth it?
Never was a fan of those but I see a few of you have them...


Sent from my iPhone 5

In the hunt for a few extra HP, every little bit helps. I have a friend locally who has the biggest intake spacer I've ever seen on a marauder, Ill have to get a pic of it. A local performance shop sells it for the cobras and its a direct bolt on but new bolts are mandatory.
He made just under 300rwhp with kooks headers, tune, spacer, pulleys, and a k&n intake.

[rocky]

In the hunt for a few extra HP, every little bit helps. I have a friend locally who has the biggest intake spacer I've ever seen on a marauder, Ill have to get a pic of it. A local performance shop sells it for the cobras and its a direct bolt on but new bolts are mandatory.
He made just under 300rwhp with kooks headers, tune, spacer, pulleys, and a k&n intake.

What 1/4 time is he running with all that?


Sent from my iPhone 5

[Mr. Man]

One of these issues I'm not seeing to much discussion here is weight. The MM is a porker to start with. Any one doing things that save weight? I know or think Joe Walsh has a CF drive shaft (MA wishes):P. Are there rear ends that are lt weight?

[ctrlraven]

One of these issues I'm not seeing to much discussion here is weight. The MM is a porker to start with. Any one doing things that save weight? I know or think Joe Walsh has a CF drive shaft (MA wishes):P. Are there rear ends that are lt weight?
I have a fiberglass hood, saves about 40 lbs compared to the stock hood.

[rocky]

In the hunt for a few extra HP, every little bit helps. I have a friend locally who has the biggest intake spacer I've ever seen on a marauder, Ill have to get a pic of it. A local performance shop sells it for the cobras and its a direct bolt on but new bolts are mandatory.
He made just under 300rwhp with kooks headers, tune, spacer, pulleys, and a k&n intake.

Sorry but this really depressed me...reality I suppose. I've got a tune and cold air and was hoping some SW off road long tubes would put my car WELL into the 300 rwhp area:(
Now thinking I'm going to spend that header money on paint and new carpet...maybe some damn doileys for the couch.


Sent from my iPhone 5

[SC Cheesehead]

Sorry but this really depressed me...reality I suppose. I've got a tune and cold air and was hoping some SW off road long tubes would put my car WELL into the 300 rwhp area:(
Now thinking I'm going to spend that header money on paint and new carpet...maybe some damn doileys for the couch.


Sent from my iPhone 5


Getting WELL into the 300 HP range is going to take some bucks. That's why so many guys (myself included) have gone S/C.

$4,000 N/A will prolly get you into the 310 - 320 range.

$4,000 - $4,500 S/C = 415 to 430.

[rocky]

Thank SC
Little bit to think about


Sent from my iPhone 5

[SC Cheesehead]

Thank SC
Little bit to think about


Sent from my iPhone 5


Either way, modding Marauders is fun; just a matter of which way you want to go: the challenge of pushing the envelope to see how far you can get N/A or getting the most bang for the buck via S/C.

Either way, once the mod bug bites, it never ends; ask me how I know....;)

[Dave1kRR]

Either way, modding Marauders is fun; just a matter of which way you want to go: the challenge of pushing the envelope to see how far you can get N/A or getting the most bang for the buck via S/C.

Either way, once the mod bug bites, it never ends; ask me how I know....;)

Tell me about it. I have my race bike that I pour money into, and now the MM. lol. :)

[BeanSS]

I have a lower ported intake I got off of here for $500 I believe from Racer X..
I got it...installed at the same time I got my SW Headers installed and 2 1/2 Kooks X Pipe(which I also got off here for I believe 100 something bucks ) and my Flowmasters and I have a JLT Cold air intake...

I want to say with all the money I've spent on my big ol black Merc has been about 2 grand

I have a set of 2000 Cobra Cams that I got off of NASVT for $180.
I need to get them degree'd and installed still (I hear that goes for about a grand?!?!)
I also need to get my gears and tune about what 700 all together?!?!?

The only reason I didn't go S/C is because of the mileage on my motor and im still making payments on my car....Once I pay the car off in other year I will go S/C...For now Im going to mod it up far as I can N/A


I still need to get my 4:10 gears installed and my tune...oh yeah and about those brakes...

[guspech750]

$$$$$$$

It never ends.

$$$$$$$$


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[rocky]

Was going thru threads, nobody hit 12s on stock engine?


Sent from my iPhone 5

[Blackened300a]

What 1/4 time is he running with all that?


Sent from my iPhone 5

He never took it to the track, I'm hoping his car is done and he joins us for E-town on the 13th


Getting WELL into the 300 HP range is going to take some bucks. That's why so many guys (myself included) have gone S/C.

$4,000 N/A will prolly get you into the 310 - 320 range.

$4,000 - $4,500 S/C = 415 to 430.

Rex, this is a NA thread. We are all aware of the SC route, this is for those who choose to stay NA.


Was going thru threads, nobody hit 12s on stock engine?

Not yet, going to try yet again this month with some new tactics.

[MrBluGruv]

In my opinion, since these engines are pretty small as far as typical V8s go as well as how heavy this car is, the focus needs to be in two areas:

1. being able to turn much higher rpm than stock (like say, up to 7500)
2. being able to make effective torque at higher rpm

To achieve both of those, you're gonna be tearing into the engine, period.

You NEED a bottom end and valvetrain that can take those revs. You NEED a cam that can actually give you the flow you need at higher RPM to actually make substantive torque.

Also, you'll need the supporting mods that are already being used, like headers and performance intakes.

The plus to building this way though is that you can gear the hell out of that setup and multiply your torque more, effectively reducing the problem that the heavy weight creates. Also, you get to brag about putting down really high HP numbers since you can rev to the moon and still make good torque up there.

You can't expect to have a small, DOHC motor and be able to build it like an old big CID pushrod engine and make good numbers; use Ford's design choice there to your advantage!

[SC Cheesehead]

He never took it to the track, I'm hoping his car is done and he joins us for E-town on the 13th



Rex, this is a NA thread. We are all aware of the SC route, this is for those who choose to stay NA.



Not yet, going to try yet again this month with some new tactics.

Understood, just responding to rocky's posts about HP potential N/A. Pulling 325+ HP is not easy nor cheap N/A.

[Dre1842]

What mods would be needed to get around 325 rwhp N/A..........?

[MrBluGruv]

What mods would be needed to get around 325 rwhp N/A..........?

Pretty sure no combination of the basic bolt-ons has done it so far, I could be wrong. I've seen some listed in the single-digit 300s though. This is on a stock displacement motor though.

Read what I posted a few posts up, I guarantee you it's easier to hit that arbitrary number when you can spin the motor faster.

[Dre1842]

Even single digit 3s would be better than mid 2s(stock) I want to add mods, but I want to keep it N/A........I know a tune, CAI, UDP's, exhaust, but what other mods are needed to get over that hump other than s/c

A list would help....

[Dre1842]

Mr Blu.....what part of SA are you in?

[SC Cheesehead]

What mods would be needed to get around 325 rwhp N/A..........?


Pretty sure no combination of the basic bolt-ons has done it so far, I could be wrong. I've seen some listed in the single-digit 300s though. This is on a stock displacement motor though.

Read what I posted a few posts up, I guarantee you it's easier to hit that arbitrary number when you can spin the motor faster.


I think 03mmmonroe might be pushing in the teens, he's still running 4.6L; he's done a bunch of both internal and external mods (i.e. porting, polishing, rods, pistons, SW headers, mandrel bent exhaust, etc) plus lotsa tweaking on his tune to get there.

Fastmerc is over 350, IIRC, but he's running a BBS (I think currently around 5.4L, but I ain't gonna swear to that).

[MrBluGruv]

Mr Blu.....what part of SA are you in?

Just outside Cibolo (which, if you're not familiar, is right next to Schertz, on the far northeast side of town).

[Dre1842]

Oh Yea...I know the place. Nice area
I'm far north central in Stone Oak

[MrBluGruv]

Oh Yea...I know the place. Nice area
I'm far north central in Stone Oak

Thanks. Stone Oak is quite the nice area too though. :beer:

Going to PM now as to not derail the thread any further...

[BeanSS]

In my opinion, since these engines are pretty small as far as typical V8s go as well as how heavy this car is, the focus needs to be in two areas:

1. being able to turn much higher rpm than stock (like say, up to 7500)
2. being able to make effective torque at higher rpm

To achieve both of those, you're gonna be tearing into the engine, period.

You NEED a bottom end and valvetrain that can take those revs. You NEED a cam that can actually give you the flow you need at higher RPM to actually make substantive torque.

Also, you'll need the supporting mods that are already being used, like headers and performance intakes.

The plus to building this way though is that you can gear the hell out of that setup and multiply your torque more, effectively reducing the problem that the heavy weight creates. Also, you get to brag about putting down really high HP numbers since you can rev to the moon and still make good torque up there.

You can't expect to have a small, DOHC motor and be able to build it like an old big CID pushrod engine and make good numbers; use Ford's design choice there to your advantage!

What you got in mind to accomplish this? Im a engine noob...I get concepts tho
Porting the lower intake gets good results...but porting the heads don't ( but I understand this is because the stock heads are very well designed so little needed to be improved upon?)
Installing the Cobra cams yield good results, and if you degree the cams you get even more...but the price for doing it makes this not a desirable mod to do for most because its not that much of a gain to deem the mod worthy..

Maybe a way to cool the temps to the motor would free up some HP...but outside of playing with the stroke of the motor and a good tune what else would get this frigid ***** to put out ?! Lol...I'm used to GM motors my last car was a 96 Caprice..intake+heads+headers+ cam = instant power

[Joe Walsh]

What you got in mind to accomplish this? Im a engine noob...I get concepts tho
Porting the lower intake gets good results...but porting the heads don't ( but I understand this is because the stock heads are very well designed so little needed to be improved upon?)
Installing the Cobra cams yield good results, and if you degree the cams you get even more...but the price for doing it makes this not a desirable mod to do for most because its not that much of a gain to deem the mod worthy..

Maybe a way to cool the temps to the motor would free up some HP...but outside of playing with the stroke of the motor and a good tune what else would get this frigid ***** to put out ?! Lol...I'm used to GM motors my last car was a 96 Caprice..intake+heads+headers+ cam = instant power

That's the nice thing about GM V8s...dirt cheap to mod and they always have some CUBES!

You can get the same (or more HP) out of FORD's smaller DOHC V8s, but you gotta spend a lot of $$$, and you gotta 'wind 'em up'.

Now if only we were blessed with the new Coyote 5.0L DOHC.....:drool:

[71cyclone]

That's the nice thing about GM V8s...dirt cheap to mod and they always have some CUBES!

You can get the same (or more HP) out of FORD's smaller DOHC V8s, but you gotta spend a lot of $$$, and you gotta 'wind 'em up'.

Now if only we were blessed with the new Coyote 5.0L DOHC.....:drool:

Quote from a Cousin that retired from G.M.// .A well built Ford Engine will out last 2 or 3 Chevrolet engines ,So if you are into "remedial": rebuilds and low cost go Chevrolet.:banana2:

[SC Cheesehead]

That's the nice thing about GM V8s...dirt cheap to mod and they always have some CUBES!

You can get the same (or more HP) out of FORD's smaller DOHC V8s, but you gotta spend a lot of $$$, and you gotta 'wind 'em up'.

Now if only we were blessed with the new Coyote 5.0L DOHC.....:drool:

True, that...

[MrBluGruv]

What you got in mind to accomplish this? Im a engine noob...I get concepts tho
Porting the lower intake gets good results...but porting the heads don't ( but I understand this is because the stock heads are very well designed so little needed to be improved upon?)
Installing the Cobra cams yield good results, and if you degree the cams you get even more...but the price for doing it makes this not a desirable mod to do for most because its not that much of a gain to deem the mod worthy..

Maybe a way to cool the temps to the motor would free up some HP...but outside of playing with the stroke of the motor and a good tune what else would get this frigid ***** to put out ?! Lol...I'm used to GM motors my last car was a 96 Caprice..intake+heads+headers+ cam = instant power

Looking at the advertised peak power vs. peak torque, as well as some of the members' posted numbers, when you are seeing peak hp numbers lower than peak torque, it means torque is falling off pretty fast, and frankly higher-rpm torque is supposed to be the Ford DOHC engine's strength. The bottom line for this scenario is that some part of the engine isn't breathing enough, and it could be anything from exhaust to the cam design. If you've got long-tubes and ported upper and lower intakes, and you've done head work, then you absolutely NEED a new cam spec to gain further. This still assumes though that you can and will rev the motor to a higher max rpm to make effective use of the mods.

Long of the short of it: you can swap and mod the same parts to increase power, but you have to choose how to do so differently with a smaller engine than a larger engine, because you must focus on making adequate power over a different specific rev range.


That's the nice thing about GM V8s...dirt cheap to mod and they always have some CUBES!

You can get the same (or more HP) out of FORD's smaller DOHC V8s, but you gotta spend a lot of $$$, and you gotta 'wind 'em up'.

Now if only we were blessed with the new Coyote 5.0L DOHC.....:drool:

Bingo!

Horsepower numbers are easy to achieve if you can rev high and make torque while you're there.

Honestly, I think the Coyote 5.0 is capable of orders of magnitude more than factory, and that the only thing holding up that potential is tuners not having a solid grasp on how to REALLY make use of the variable cam timing at their disposal.


Quote from a Cousin that retired from G.M.// .A well built Ford Engine will out last 2 or 3 Chevrolet engines ,So if you are into "remedial": rebuilds and low cost go Chevrolet.:banana2:

How long ago did that cousin of yours retire? Chevy Vortec engines and the LS family have been pretty well regarded for their reliability in most places I've seen.

[99SVT]

To get to 325+hp N/A with stock displacement/compression you'll need all the normal bolt ons, lt's and a set of aftermarket cams.

Sent from my LT15a using Tapatalk 2

[BeanSS]

To get to 325+hp N/A with stock displacement/compression you'll need all the normal bolt ons, lt's and a set of aftermarket cams.

Sent from my LT15a using Tapatalk 2

where'd you get the cams from? any suggested specs?
any body in the Hampton Roads area that can install and degree cams?

[SC Cheesehead]

where'd you get the cams from? any suggested specs?
any body in the Hampton Roads area that can install and degree cams?


PM 03mmmonroe, he just did cams on his car, can give you some good insight.

[RR|Suki]

I've lost track at this point, did 12s NA (stock displacement) ever happen?

[Joe Walsh]

I've lost track at this point, did 12s NA (stock displacement) ever happen?

Nope...

IIRC we are still at Barry's (cruztaker) 13.2(1?) ET from Mason Dixon Dragway.

[RR|Suki]

I see I see, I got lost for a minute there.

[ctrlraven]

Need more cubes for 12's if staying NA which basically we have determined.

[BeanSS]

Need more cubes for 12's if staying NA which basically we have determined.

yep...thats how it's looking....good to have the chat tho cause you never know!:banana2:

thanks for the plug to SC Cheesehead!

[MrBluGruv]

Has anyone that attempted 12's on stock displacement actually significantly increased max RPM per gear though? Or added parts that are designed to improve high-rpm performance, not just factory rpm range performance?

[RR|Suki]

Has anyone that attempted 12's on stock displacement actually significantly increased max RPM per gear though? Or added parts that are designed to improve high-rpm performance, not just factory rpm range performance?

I believe some people with superchargers have tried high rpms. I think the problem becomes the trans. If I remember correct 7k seemed to be an agreed safe stopping point. Don't remember where I got that number but that's where I have mine set. Maybe someone else will remember the trans conversation.

[jflave]

I believe some people with superchargers have tried high rpms. I think the problem becomes the trans. If I remember correct 7k seemed to be an agreed safe stopping point. Don't remember where I got that number but that's where I have mine set. Maybe someone else will remember the trans conversation.I believe max rpm's with stock Ford computer is 6850 but iam not 100% sure about that :dunno:.

[RR|Suki]

I believe max rpm's with stock Ford computer is 6850 but iam not 100% sure about that :dunno:.

I would say that's inaccurate, I tune my car with software similar to SCT racecar or whatever they call it, and I have my RPMs set to 7000 for shifting out of 3rd and my rev limits are 7200 (I'd actually have to go open my files since it's been so long) and I'm pretty sure I could set it higher if I wanted. Unless what you meant is that the stock rev limit is set to 6850

[jflave]

Yes that what i saying, also that the SCT can be set at any RPM above that but it will still Rev limited at 6850 RPM, its hard coded in the PCM that a problem staying with a stock computer. Ask someone that knows more then me, iam still learning.

[MrBluGruv]

It doesn't make sense to me to engineer a small displacement motor with a DOHC valvetrain and not design it to rev high. My pushrod chevy engine can turn 6200 rpm, what's the benefit of a sophisticated valvetrain if the sole benefit of using it isn't put to use?

If you could extend the power band effectively even for another 1k rpm, that should really get the car moving. Even better, you could go to 4.10s from 3.55s and not lose as much top speed per gear but still get the benefits of all that torque multiplication.

[Joe Walsh]

It doesn't make sense to me to engineer a small displacement motor with a DOHC valvetrain and not design it to rev high. My pushrod chevy engine can turn 6200 rpm, what's the benefit of a sophisticated valvetrain if the sole benefit of using it isn't put to use?

If you could extend the power band effectively even for another 1k rpm, that should really get the car moving. Even better, you could go to 4.10s from 3.55s and not lose as much top speed per gear but still get the benefits of all that torque multiplication.

No doubt....these mild OEM cams don't give you much over 6,000 - 6,200 rpm....

BTW: Swapping out cams would negate the no internal mods/bone stock 4.6L engine in the 12s claim.

[ctrlraven]

No doubt....these mild OEM cams don't give you much over 6,000 - 6,200 rpm....

BTW: Swapping out cams would negate the no internal mods/bone stock 4.6L engine in the 12s claim.

Actually those who were in the run for 12's agreed upon as long as the motor was not actually opened (heads removed or any block internals changed) cam swap was fine.

[MrBluGruv]

I would be afraid that swapping the cams to any serious upgrade over stock (specifically, not just a different factory Cobra cam) would necessitate new supporting valvetrain pieces like spings and such, and if you can't do that, I mean even if you could rocket the car to 12s one time, it's not really worth much compared to saying your stock CID Marauder can run 12s reliably N/A. If you can do the full swap correctly though, game on.

I still stand by revs being the key to it even hoping to happen, with stock rev limit and power band there's only so much even gear and stall can do.

[RR|Suki]

I would be afraid that swapping the cams to any serious upgrade over stock (specifically, not just a different factory Cobra cam) would necessitate new supporting valvetrain pieces like spings and such, and if you can't do that, I mean even if you could rocket the car to 12s one time, it's not really worth much compared to saying your stock CID Marauder can run 12s reliably N/A. If you can do the full swap correctly though, game on.

I still stand by revs being the key to it even hoping to happen, with stock rev limit and power band there's only so much even gear and stall can do.

Don't forget that the stock cams aren't necessarily going to yield more power with more RPM, if you look at an NA dyno chart and the power starts to drop off before the current limit, you'd need a cam to gain anything from more RPM anyway.

I'm not saying the power does fall off, I haven't bothered to look up any NA dyno charts, but that would be a fast way to figure out the answer.

[MrBluGruv]

Don't forget that the stock cams aren't necessarily going to yield more power with more RPM, if you look at an NA dyno chart and the power starts to drop off before the current limit, you'd need a cam to gain anything from more RPM anyway.

I'm not saying the power does fall off, I haven't bothered to look up any NA dyno charts, but that would be a fast way to figure out the answer.

Oh yeh most definitely, that's why I think cams are an absolute must. Cam design for low-rpm power isn't the same as cam design for high-rpm power, hell that's why Honda uses VTEC.

If the community thinks it's seeing good power gains from headers on the stock cam and intake, just imagine the potential of those headers with a good aftermarket cam...

But even with gearing, if you find yourself in a situation where you're still making adequate torque at higher RPM, to oversimplify a bit: having 150tq multiplied by 3 is still gonna net you more accelerative force than having 200tq multiplied by 2. Like you said though, you really gotta be able to see that torque curve on a dyno chart and know what RPM your shift points will land you at to make that call.

[J.bo]

All is saying we need more cubes but my question is why the Audi's can have 4.2 V8 N/A pumping out 400hp stock. Is it the German technology or poor technology by Ford?

[MrBluGruv]

All is saying we need more cubes but my question is why the Audi's can have 4.2 V8 N/A pumping out 400hp stock. Is it the German technology or poor technology by Ford?

If their 4.2 can rev to 8K rpm and still make good torque up to the point, it's not hard to achieve.

Think about this: the advertised peak torque of the Marauder, from the factory, is 318 at 4250rpm. That's 257HP. If you could make 318 tq at, say 6000rpm, that's 363 hp produced at that point, and it's conceivable that peak HP wouldn't arrive until fairly higher than that, too, meaning the advertised peak HP could go much higher.

If you could get peak torque to hit at 2500-3000RPM, and peak HP to hit around 7000, you would have one HELL of a powerband and that car would ****ing MOVE, given the actual baseline average of torque is adequate for the weight of the car.

[Mr. Man]

I'm sure Ford built in a very wide safety margin in the RPM spin, but not sure if the stock motor could take that kind of RPM's. Some rebuilding with appropriate parts would be in order.

[Mebot]

Bumping this thread back up for discussion. I created this thread before I left for Louisville (and got assimilated by the overwhelming amount of boost there!) but I wanted to let the posts sink in. This has been a great discussion and I appreciate all the responses.

I believe this post by Rex sums up the consensus:

Either way, modding Marauders is fun; just a matter of which way you want to go: the challenge of pushing the envelope to see how far you can get N/A or getting the most bang for the buck via S/C.

Either way, once the mod bug bites, it never ends; ask me how I know....;)

Would another NA Ford engine be able to produce more horsepower and better times at the track? I think there were threads about a Coyote 5.0L swap, but didn't follow it closely.

[ctrlraven]

It is the displacement of the stock motor that is the real problem if being NA. Need more cubes if no positive displacement s/c is added.

The 5.0 Coyote motor is the logically choice, but for the cost of the motor, engine control pack, getting the drive-by wire system setup and labor you could buy a built 281ci 4.6 dohc, s/c kit, rebuilt trans and probably have it all installed with money still left over.

[montyd]

im in the middle of puttng my motor back together right now. i stayed n/a(i considered spray since i have the kit but its going to the mustang, it needs some insurance from a couple wicked fast neons running around my sleepy town...:lol: )

but here is my set up,
kooks long tubes and x pipe with high flow cats
jlt cold air
heads rebuilt to factory spec(had a burnt valve and bad valve seat and so much carbon build up it was un believeable:shake:)
97 cobra intake cams, advanced 8 degress
exhuast cams advanced 4 degrees
4:10 gears
eaton limited slip rear dif just because i had it
j mod
actuators in the trans have the springs removed and are locked solid(im told, which gives a wicked 1-2 shift)
and once it lives ill be getting a tune from martyo at mo's

before the cam's (and everythig cleaned up in the heads) the car supposedly made 295 or so hp and im not sure of the torque

im hoping to get the 20 hp from the cams and be around 315 him when im done, but ill be happy with anything in the 300 range :beer:

[guspech750]

im in the middle of puttng my motor back together right now. i stayed n/a(i considered spray since i have the kit but its going to the mustang, it needs some insurance from a couple wicked fast neons running around my sleepy town...:lol: )

but here is my set up,
kooks long tubes and x pipe with high flow cats
jlt cold air
heads rebuilt to factory spec(had a burnt valve and bad valve seat and so much carbon build up it was un believeable:shake:)
97 cobra intake cams, advanced 8 degress
exhuast cams advanced 4 degrees
4:10 gears
eaton limited slip rear dif just because i had it
j mod
actuators in the trans have the springs removed and are locked solid(im told, which gives a wicked 1-2 shift)
and once it lives ill be getting a tune from martyo at mo's

before the cam's (and everythig cleaned up in the heads) the car supposedly made 295 or so hp and im not sure of the torque

im hoping to get the 20 hp from the cams and be around 315 him when im done, but ill be happy with anything in the 300 range :beer:

Post up when is all is done. I like to listen to people's views on their rides after they finish a mod.


Sent from my iPhone 4S

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[FastMerc]

In the hunt for a few extra HP, every little bit helps. I have a friend locally who has the biggest intake spacer I've ever seen on a marauder, Ill have to get a pic of it. A local performance shop sells it for the cobras and its a direct bolt on but new bolts are mandatory.
He made just under 300rwhp with kooks headers, tune, spacer, pulleys, and a k&n intake.
My intake spacer is pretty big. But then again its needed on the 5.0 stroker that I had built at Lidios shop no dissapointments or regrets on pulling the trigger on that motor. I have run with some SC cars and they are stunned that I can hang the way I do. With the crower cams I have people pull up at the light and they just cant figure out why my car sounds like a 60s Muscle car,lol...

[FastMerc]

Getting WELL into the 300 HP range is going to take some bucks. That's why so many guys (myself included) have gone S/C.

$4,000 N/A will prolly get you into the 310 - 320 range.

$4,000 - $4,500 S/C = 415 to 430.
My stroker has 410 ponies and every one of them runs great...