Aftercooler and bypass valve questions

[drhill]

I just went yesterday to get the Marauder tuned...turned out very well but I have a couple of issues to take care of.

The first is the vortech aftercooler that doesn't seem to be working correctly. IATs jumped from 90 to 130 during just one dyno pull and the heat exchanger was very hot to the touch. My tuner works alot with air to water stuff and says this is not normal. I'll double check that my pump is working (I checked it a few weeks ago) but has anyone else had trouble with getting air out of the water system on the Reichart Vortech kit? The water tank is lower than most of the rest of the system.and there doesn't seem to be a bleed port.

The second issue is the bypass valve - I have some reversion at the MAF that's causing surging at deceleration. Has anyone successfully relocated the bypass valve on this kit? Maybe to point directly back at the s/c inlet instead of just up into the inlet tube?

Thanks!!

[sailsmen]

The problem is the amount of heat the T trim generates.

I went from a V-2 SQ to a V-2 T and the difference was dramatic.

Water to Air At the Dyno the temps were 170*.
At 19 psi the water to air could not extract the heat. IAT at the track was 220*.

Switched to Air to Air and IAT dyno was 115* wth 125* to 167*at the track.

Added Meth http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73919 and IAT ~20* above ambient at the track.

Get rid of that piece of crap Water to Air and replace it with Air to Air.

[drhill]

As soon as a wrote this post I know someone would bash the air to water! I expected that.

My situation is very different from yours: I saw no more than 11 psi with the stock 3.6 pulley I have on there - the T trim is really overkill for my application but it came on the car so :D. I'm also not spending the $$ to go air to air on the family "minivan".

I do appreciate your input and data however - always nice to see someone back up their opinions with real results!!

So, the original question stands - anyone try to bleed one of these air to water kits? There is no bleed port that I can find...not a great design in that regard.

[Comin' in Hot]

pm sent with my phone number, call me tonight if you can

[sailsmen]

Another option is to get rid of that water to air and add a meth or nitrous system. Pat is a member that has a non IC Vortech.
Don't sweat anything below 150*.

If you are not racing at the track what's the worry?

[Comin' in Hot]

The problem is that the system was poorly designed as earlier stated. I fixed the issue by moving the fill to higher than the aftercooler, my redesign worked great but my hard piping is leaking because I couldn't get the piping tight enough due to the close clearances. I just ordered AN fittings to address the problem. I will also be reinstalling the original water box for greater volume as well as a cobra reservoir to have a higher fill location and to allow for fluid heat expansion if there is any.

Here is a link to my original thread about this: http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81715

I will take pictures and do writeup when I have it back together with the revised plumbing.

[drhill]

I do like the meth idea and have been wanting to try it on a car. To keep it really simple and cheap I would likely just run it from the washer bottle and use the methanol based windshield washer fluid.

My only worry is detonation...I just wanted a properly operating system. The tuner said there is already not too much timing in the car as is at WOT.

[hotford]

Nice to see you are giving the water to air system a chance, the aftercooler can work pretty good if the other suporting equipment is there to help,the heat exchancer that came with the aftercooler kit was very poorly designed and extracting heat was one of its short falls, That being said, running a frozen boost heat exchanger and a good johnson water pump or factory cobra/lightning one will do wonders to the aftercooler.
The other option is to run a Killer Chiller to the after cooler system and watch your inlet temps really drop.....but lets leave that for another topic......
Your By-pass valve forsure is in the wrong location as all early Vortech aftercooler systems were built this way having the plastic by-pass valve located between the aftercooler and the throtttle body caused alot of surging as the by-pass cannot release the pressure from the hot side of the oulet volute to the aftercooler and pressure will back up to the point it causes the air flow to interfer on the mass air flow causing your surging.....quick fix add another by-pass valve on the pressure side to the aftercooler and leave the other one on the throttle body side, this will forsure fix your problem, or just run a mini mondo by-pass valve between the blower and the aftercooler.
Been there done that......................

[sailsmen]

Nice to see you are giving the water to air system a chance, the aftercooler can work pretty good if the other suporting equipment is there to help,the heat exchancer that came with the aftercooler kit was very poorly designed and extracting heat was one of its short falls, That being said, running a frozen boost heat exchanger and a good johnson water pump or factory cobra/lightning one will do wonders to the aftercooler.
The other option is to run a Killer Chiller to the after cooler system and watch your inlet temps really drop.....but lets leave that for another topic......
Your By-pass valve forsure is in the wrong location as all early Vortech aftercooler systems were built this way having the plastic by-pass valve located between the aftercooler and the throtttle body caused alot of surging as the by-pass cannot release the pressure from the hot side of the oulet volute to the aftercooler and pressure will back up to the point it causes the air flow to interfer on the mass air flow causing your surging.....quick fix add another by-pass valve on the pressure side to the aftercooler and leave the other one on the throttle body side, this will forsure fix your problem, or just run a mini mondo by-pass valve between the blower and the aftercooler.
Been there done that......................
Better fix is air to air! Get a blow thru MAF, mount the Bypass at the pipe connected to the S/C discharge and vent.

[Comin' in Hot]

I did some more thinking after our phone conversation last night. I was going to route the plumbing like this:

heat exchanger- pump- aftercooler- fill resevoir- waterbox- back to the heat exchanger

I realized all I will be doing is heating up the coolant in the water box and defeating its purpose.

now I'm thinking of either deleting that water box or routing it like this

heat exchanger- water box- pump- aftercooler- fill resevoir -back to the heat exchanger

my problem is that I like the extra volume I'll get from the water box, but I want the coolest coolant possible going through the aftercooler and that would be coolant going directly from the heat exchanger to the aftercooler.

any thoughts?

[hotford]

Better fix is air to air! Get a blow thru MAF, mount the Bypass at the pipe connected to the S/C discharge and vent.
True this would also be a option....... but the venting of the bypass valve into the atomsphere will sound horrible..............

spending a little on a good pump and heat exchanger might get him cooler IAT without spending big,the A to A with piping could run as high a 1K depending on how good the core is and having pipes fab up........

lots of ways to go from here, eliminate the aftercooler,install meth injection,bros are it works great, higher octane,cooler charge,eliminate oil tracking which is a hugh plus for supercharged cars,cons would be that the pumps failure rate is high, bank on one a year at 200.00.

[drhill]

I did some more thinking after our phone conversation last night. I was going to route the plumbing like this:

heat exchanger- pump- aftercooler- fill resevoir- waterbox- back to the heat exchanger

I realized all I will be doing is heating up the coolant in the water box and defeating its purpose.

now I'm thinking of either deleting that water box or routing it like this

heat exchanger- water box- pump- aftercooler- fill resevoir -back to the heat exchanger

my problem is that I like the extra volume I'll get from the water box, but I want the coolest coolant possible going through the aftercooler and that would be coolant going directly from the heat exchanger to the aftercooler.

any thoughts?

The tuner I worked with who used these systems frequently suggested not running the water box as in his experience they act as a heat sink....it's just that much more water for the heat exchanger to cool down. Vortech recommends: water box - pump - heat exchanger - aftercooler - water box. My tuner said just replace the water box with the cobra degas bottle placed in the highest position in the system. For now, that's what I'm planning to do.

[drhill]

Nice to see you are giving the water to air system a chance, the aftercooler can work pretty good if the other suporting equipment is there to help,the heat exchancer that came with the aftercooler kit was very poorly designed and extracting heat was one of its short falls, That being said, running a frozen boost heat exchanger and a good johnson water pump or factory cobra/lightning one will do wonders to the aftercooler.
The other option is to run a Killer Chiller to the after cooler system and watch your inlet temps really drop.....but lets leave that for another topic......
Your By-pass valve forsure is in the wrong location as all early Vortech aftercooler systems were built this way having the plastic by-pass valve located between the aftercooler and the throtttle body caused alot of surging as the by-pass cannot release the pressure from the hot side of the oulet volute to the aftercooler and pressure will back up to the point it causes the air flow to interfer on the mass air flow causing your surging.....quick fix add another by-pass valve on the pressure side to the aftercooler and leave the other one on the throttle body side, this will forsure fix your problem, or just run a mini mondo by-pass valve between the blower and the aftercooler.
Been there done that......................

thanks for the input - once I get the current parts working properly - a better heat exchanger and pump may be considered. Likely not until it's my daily driver again!

On the bypass - thanks for the input! Is there an easy way to add the additional bypass or do I have to weld a bung on the pipe from the s/c to the I/c etc...

[Comin' in Hot]

The tuner I worked with who used these systems frequently suggested not running the water box as in his experience they act as a heat sink....it's just that much more water for the heat exchanger to cool down. Vortech recommends: water box - pump - heat exchanger - aftercooler - water box. My tuner said just replace the water box with the cobra degas bottle placed in the highest position in the system. For now, that's what I'm planning to do.

I must've missed that in our conversation last night, my water box is not going back in the car :lol:

[hotford]

thanks for the input - once I get the current parts working properly - a better heat exchanger and pump may be considered. Likely not until it's my daily driver again!

On the bypass - thanks for the input! Is there an easy way to add the additional bypass or do I have to weld a bung on the pipe from the s/c to the I/c etc...

no prob..........no easy way...welding in a bung is the easiest.....

[sailsmen]

True this would also be a option....... but the venting of the bypass valve into the atomsphere will sound horrible..............

spending a little on a good pump and heat exchanger might get him cooler IAT without spending big,the A to A with piping could run as high a 1K depending on how good the core is and having pipes fab up........

lots of ways to go from here, eliminate the aftercooler,install meth injection,bros are it works great, higher octane,cooler charge,eliminate oil tracking which is a hugh plus for supercharged cars,cons would be that the pumps failure rate is high, bank on one a year at 200.00.

No horrible sound, I have no idea what you are talking about. By venting to atnos you are reducing IAT.

The meth pumps of today are as reliable as the Intercooler pumps.
Buying a system from Snow - Warranty "A lifetime warranty for injection systems is available with exclusive use of Boost Juice™ injection fluid."

My first meth pump lasted 3 years and failed due to a lack of use. The replacement pump has been completely changed to the point Snow offers the lifetime warranty. The current pump is 2 years old and is regularly used.

If your IATs are below 150* and you don't race it don't worry about it. Lots of S/C MMs running around with 170* IAt.

[hotford]

[QUOTE=sailsmen;1286807]No horrible sound, I have no idea what you are talking about. By venting to atnos you are reducing IAT.

Most air to air kits that have the by-pass valve before the mass air that is located upstream near the throttle body are always venting at idle and sound horrible,unless you have a blow off valve which would be silent till a time it opens atmosphering that trapped air......

Both valves reduce IAT temps without them yhe IAT temps would be alot higher.

I use alky work kits and their pumps seem to quit after 1 year or so, never tried the snow one's you may have something there..........

If i could get E85 locally I would convert the car..........
our laws in canada are really messed up compared to the USA....

[sailsmen]

THERE IS NO HORRIBLE SOUND OR ANY SOUND AT ALL from air venting. I have the Maxflow Racing Bypass Valve.

A horrible sound probably indicates a defective bypass.

By venting to atnos you are not recirculating which reduces IAT.

As respects location per Vortech - "Where is the best place to mount a race or mondo air bypass valve?

Depending on the application, the bypass valve should be mounted on the discharge tube of the supercharger."

Too close to the MAF can cause back wash.

[hotford]

THERE IS NO HORRIBLE SOUND OR ANY SOUND AT ALL from air venting. I have the Maxflow Racing Bypass Valve.

A horrible sound probably indicates a defective bypass.

By venting to atnos you are not recirculating which reduces IAT.

As respects location per Vortech - "Where is the best place to mount a race or mondo air bypass valve?

Depending on the application, the bypass valve should be mounted on the discharge tube of the supercharger."

Too close to the MAF can cause back wash.
I dont know your set up, I am assuming you have a by-pass valve and not a blow off valve which are two different ways of venting the pressurized charge,
your BY-PASS Valve is vented to the atomsphere? or is it recycled into the inlet pipe of the supercharger?
by the way is sounds your BY-PASS valve is recycled into the inlet tube thus the reason you can't hear it, if vented to the atmosphere you would hear it at idle as it's open.

My MODFOX coupe runs a YSI with a mini by-pss valve which is located on the discharge tube and recycles it back into the inlet pipe of the blower as a closed loop system as the Mass air is in the inlet pipe.

I would like to see a pic of your set up.......
either way it sounds like its working right for you..

It seem like we are getting off topic here,maybe we should start a new thread instead of using this one....lol

[Comin' in Hot]

All the parts are here except the GT500 pump which should be here tomorrow. Now I could get started and make this system work right.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/C5F1DA68-89F2-42C4-98B2-88A205304995-147-00000014D1E6B760_zpsc9051fd8.j pg

[Loco1234]

I just went yesterday to get the Marauder tuned...turned out very well but I have a couple of issues to take care of.

The first is the vortech aftercooler that doesn't seem to be working correctly. IATs jumped from 90 to 130 during just one dyno pull and the heat exchanger was very hot to the touch. My tuner works alot with air to water stuff and says this is not normal. I'll double check that my pump is working (I checked it a few weeks ago) but has anyone else had trouble with getting air out of the water system on the Reichart Vortech kit? The water tank is lower than most of the rest of the system.and there doesn't seem to be a bleed port.

The second issue is the bypass valve - I have some reversion at the MAF that's causing surging at deceleration. Has anyone successfully relocated the bypass valve on this kit? Maybe to point directly back at the s/c inlet instead of just up into the inlet tube?

Thanks!!


http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=44015

This is an old thread I started but shows u just how well this worx... FYI battery has been relocated to the trunk..
I also have an sketch in this link u can DL I made that shows the layout diagrammatically.
Only difference is I don't use a pull thru 90mm MAF.
I use a Blow Thru 05+ maf slot type MAF located after cooler & before the throttle body. Where the "welded IAT tap" is shown to be...

[drhill]

All the parts are here except the GT500 pump which should be here tomorrow. Now I could get started and make this system work right.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/C5F1DA68-89F2-42C4-98B2-88A205304995-147-00000014D1E6B760_zpsc9051fd8.j pg
Nice man - you are doing it right. I just got my aftercooler plumbed correctly and set up with the cobra degas bottle like the one in your pic and I found out two things: my pump was not grounded properly so - it wasn't running...and I have an upgraded heat exchanger! it's aluminum finish about twice the thickness of the black painted vortech one that I have seen pics of. It's like I have to be Sherlock holmes with this car! Aftercooler unit stays very cool to the touch now after a hard run! Now to get it retuned again as it still detonates a bit...

[Comin' in Hot]

I have it done, I'll try to post pics tonight

[sailsmen]

I dont know your set up, I am assuming you have a by-pass valve and not a blow off valve which are two different ways of venting the pressurized charge,
your BY-PASS Valve is vented to the atomsphere? or is it recycled into the inlet pipe of the supercharger?
by the way is sounds your BY-PASS valve is recycled into the inlet tube thus the reason you can't hear it, if vented to the atmosphere you would hear it at idle as it's open.

My MODFOX coupe runs a YSI with a mini by-pss valve which is located on the discharge tube and recycles it back into the inlet pipe of the blower as a closed loop system as the Mass air is in the inlet pipe.

I would like to see a pic of your set up.......
either way it sounds like its working right for you..

It seem like we are getting off topic here,maybe we should start a new thread instead of using this one....lol

It vents to atnos and not only is there no horrible sound I regularly get compliments for how it does sound. I am at a loss as to what you are saying.

[Comin' in Hot]

here is my setup,

the bracket i made:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/IMG_2330_zpsc0f464f6.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/IMG_2330_zpsc0f464f6.jpg.html)

i modified the cobra reservoir by cutting the rear of it off and redrilling the holes:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/IMG_2328_zpsb1af222e.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/IMG_2328_zpsb1af222e.jpg.html)

I upgraded from the original hella pump to a gt500 pump:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/IMG_2334_zpsf2fb5e3d.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/IMG_2334_zpsf2fb5e3d.jpg.html)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/IMG_2333_zps279894b5.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/IMG_2333_zps279894b5.jpg.html)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/Marauders/IMG_0015_zpse72413cb.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/Marauders/IMG_0015_zpse72413cb.jpg.html)

One of my biggest problems was kinking and chaffing in the core support. I solved this problem using -12 AN fittings, but what a pain to get everything tight. it involved cutting up brand new 1-1/8" and 1- 1/4" wrenches(goodbye to another $50). Keep in mind the the rear of the head light has to fit in the same space.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/Marauders/IMG_0026_zps833a3a19.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/Marauders/IMG_0026_zps833a3a19.jpg.html)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/Marauders/IMG_0024_zps8f26ad0d.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/Marauders/IMG_0024_zps8f26ad0d.jpg.html)

(the wiring got moved)


pump to aftercooler line
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/Marauders/IMG_0019_zps0d75bf3c.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/Marauders/IMG_0019_zps0d75bf3c.jpg.html)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/Marauders/IMG_0027_zps43e49c53.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/Marauders/IMG_0027_zps43e49c53.jpg.html)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b335/Witman40/Marauders/IMG_0028_zps27b40424.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Witman40/media/Marauders/IMG_0028_zps27b40424.jpg.html)


I also reinforced my heat exchanger bracket because I crushed two of the three cooling fan shrouds and the motors burned up. I replaced the fans, this time I added angle iron to the sides and completely welded the whole assembly. I forgot to take pictures.

I might add a heat shield to the underside of the reservoir, but its only because I'm anal, not because of heat issues and I need to order different clamps for the charged air lines.

[drhill]

Nice work - I'll post some pics of mine - but I put in nowhere near the time of effort you did! I mounted my cobra bottle on the pass side fender next to the coolant overflow bottle. Is the smaller pump the stock vortech pump? If so, I definately have a bigger pump than that! Not at big or nice as your new one though...what brand and model number is your pump?

[MOTOWN]

+1 Excellent work bud!

[justbob]

Very clean install man!


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

[Comin' in Hot]

I mounted my cobra bottle on the pass side fender next to the coolant overflow bottle.

I couldn't get mine to fit there, and both my heat exchanger fittings are on the driver's side.


Is the smaller pump the stock vortech pump? If so, I definately have a bigger pump than that! Not at big or nice as your new one though...what brand and model number is your pump?


The pump is from Ford Racing, its the same pump used in the GT500s, part number M-8501-MSVT. you will also need the correct pigtail, Ford part number: WPT 260

Thanks for the compliments guys, its not perfect, but i never think my own work is perfect.