Question for you S/Ced guys:

[BillyGman]

how does your Trilogy Supercharger equipped cars do w/the stock fuel pump w/merely this so-called "Fuel pump amplifier" installed that comes w/the Trilogy kit?

And what about the knock sensors? Who has chosen to do away w/it, and who hasn't? And why? Ofcourse I welcome anyone from Trilogy to offer answers here, but I'm particularly interested in hearing from their customers on this. Weather you've had good experiences or not. You can send me a PM if you would rather. ;)

[01True BlueGT]

I'm sure Jerry would be happy to answer that one, but he is in Florida for the NMRA. I met him last week in Orlando and he is eager to answer any questions or concerns.

[BillyGman]

well and good, but I always talk to other customers too. I want to hear all sides. Otherwise, that's too much $$ to burn.

[MI2QWK4U]

how does your Trilogy Supercharger equipped cars do w/the stock fuel pump w/merely this so-called "Fuel pump amplifier" installed that comes w/the Trilogy kit?

And what about the knock sensors? Who has chosen to do away w/it, and who hasn't? And why? Ofcourse I welcome anyone from Trilogy to offer answers here, but I'm particularly interested in hearing from their customers on this. Weather you've had good experiences or not. You can send me a PM if you would rather. ;)


The Trilogy cars do well with the stock fuel pump and the boostapump, which boosts fuel in proportion to boost. With the stock Trilogy setup doing 380-390 RWHP it is more than sufficient. Lidio and myself are not running the stock Trilogy setup, when you get into the 440-450 RWHP arena the stock fuel pump gets a bit lean.
As for the knock sensor, I am not using mine, and I dont think Lidio is either. So let the Flames begin. I cannot speak to any other Trilogy customer. I know a couple have relocated the sensor on their own by modifying something or other. Most have followed the installation manual and relocated it accordingly. The reason I dont use mine is simple, Lidio tunes within the guidelines of a safe tune. Some tuners are irresponsible and tune to the ragged edge and rely on the knock sensors to save it if something goes wrong. I trust Lidio and rely on his skills as a tuner. I will mention this to Jerry and Lid when they get back to put their comments in here too.

[MI2QWK4U]

For those with questions about no knock sensors... this just in...
Lidio just pulled 12.11 @113.5 mph in florida....its all in the tune.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8651

[sailsmen]

Knock sensors can be of value when you get fuel with less than the advertised octane.

With the super charger mounted on top of the engine the effectiveness of the knock sensors maybe reduced.

I believe the Cobra may not have knock sensors.

Keep in mind knock sensors can only work after the knock has taken place.

Generally knock sensors will be of value when the engine is under the most load such as up a hill in OD at low RPM.

[BillyGman]

I'm not here to knock Trilogy, Jerry, or Lidio. Yes, that's a great ET that Lidio just turned. Very impressive. I'm just trying to figure out how this "boost-a-pump" thing or "Fuel pump Amplifier" can actually work. I mean how can it increase the output of a fuel pump? The pump is either on or off if it's an electrical one. Right? To my knowledge you would have to change the internal mechanical components of a fuel pump to increase the volume of it's output.

So my guess is that this pump "amplifier" thing is actually a type of pump REGULATOR which has an varying degree of regulation that is adjustable in order to keep the fuel pressure at the precise level that the supercharger needs according to what stage of Boost it's in at any certain time.

I just want to make sure that IF I was to purchase and install this S/Cer, that I wouldn't have to install a higher output fuel pump later on down the road. I hear of guys having to do that, but I just want to be sure that it is ONLY those who have decided to run a higher boost pressure than 9 or 10 PSI.

[Logan]

The boost-a-pump increases fuel flow to the motor based on the amount of boost. There's a solenoid that hooks up to the boost gauge that tells the boostapump what the boost is, then you adjust the boostapump to feed more fuel to the motor based on the amount of boost.

[BillyGman]

Okay, that does shed somemore light on that for me, but this item must not really "amplify" or "boost" the fuel pressure over and above what the stock pump will by itself unless infact it also is a fuel pump itself. And that cannot be since there isn't any fuel going through it because it isn't installed into the fuel line.

So that's why it seems to me that it's actually a fuel REGULATOR rather than an "amplifier". Perhaps it would help if I wait uintil Lidio jumps in here. So I'll be patient on this one. If he doesn't in the next day or two, then I'll just telephone him on this.

[Logan]

http://www.kennebell.net/accessories/boostapump/boostapump.htm

[BillyGman]

AAAAHHH!!!! That helps a lot LOGAN. U-DA-MAN!!!! This stuff can get complicated. But after reading all of that and the links they have on there that further explains, it sounds good to me. One thing I learned from that is that it's the EEC that is used to regulate fuel in cars now instead of the old type mechanical fuel regulators. That's what was hanging me up on this whole thing, because I was in the dark on that. Thanks. ;)

[Smokie]

Okay, that does shed somemore light on that for me, but this item must not really "amplify" or "boost" the fuel pressure over and above what the stock pump will by itself unless infact it also is a fuel pump itself. And that cannot be since there isn't any fuel going through it because it isn't installed into the fuel line.

So that's why it seems to me that it's actually a fuel REGULATOR rather than an "amplifier". Perhaps it would help if I wait uintil Lidio jumps in here. So I'll be patient on this one. If he doesn't in the next day or two, then I'll just telephone him on this.
Billy. I'll try, the Boost a Pump is an adjustable voltage regulator, the fuel pump is simply a D.C. motor that turns a pump to generate fuel pressure, since you are not changing the physical size of any component, the only variable is how fast the motor turns, the faster the motor turns the more fuel pressure you have ( within limits ) this devices makes sure your pump operates at maximun voltage ( when needed ) regardless of the actual output of your battery (as long as voltage does not drop under 10 volts).

The fuel pump motor turns slower at 11 volts than at 14 volts, faster motor speed means more fuel pressure.

[Zack]

Boost a pumps are great, but Many people disagree with the way Kenne Bell says to wire them in. Let me explain:
As Smokie stated, it is an adjustable voltage regulator.
The Marauder fuel system is returnless and this is accomplished by the cars own voltage regulator adjusting the voltage to the pump to keep fuel pressure within safe limits of the fuel lines and injectors. The boost a pump instructions tell you to wire it in between the cars own voltage controller and the pump.
This is not ideal, ill explain:
The wire between the cars voltage controller and the pump is always varying in voltage. So when you hook the boost a pump to this wire, IT TOO will not have a steady voltage source. This of course, is bad.
Combine that with the voltage drop of the alternator at WOT, and it makes things potentially worse.
The remedy is simple, wire the boost a pump to the hot wire feeding the cars voltage controller.
Problem solved.

[BillyGman]

Interesting input Zack. Mechanical stuff is what I know best(not saying that I'm a pro). But when it comes to electrical, I'm lacking. So for me, I'd have to find out where the voltage regulator of the car is in the first place in order to consider wiring it the way you've suggested. Perhaps I can figure that out by looking at the Ford shop manual that I have.

I assume that once I find that I'd have to determine via study of schematics exactly which wires to tap into near or before the votage regulator. I must admit that this electrical stuff does intimidate me a bit. Someone recently said to me "Billy, if you changed the gears in your rear end of your car by yourself successfully, then installing this entire S/Cer kit will be a breeze for you" but it's the electrical stuff that will make it more complicated for me than the two gear changes that I did were.

I replaced the entire ignition on my Vette w/an MSD box and distributor, and that was something above and beyond for me since it involves electrical stuff. I didn't have any major problems, but that's because everything was fully mapped out for me step by step in the MSD instructions just as the Trilogy S/Cer instructions are. But if and when I'd begin to deviate from those mapped out instructions(especially when it involves electrical work) then I could have a major headache on my hands. Something I'd rather avoid.

But I guess I should just slow down w/this issue since I haven't even decided yet weather I'm going to S/C my MM yet. besides the $$ factor, it's the idea of blowing the warantee on what now is my ONLY means of transportation since I have to put the Vette up for sale (no where to keep it anymore).

So I DO appreciate all your help guys. At this point I'm just trying to fully weigh out all the pros and cons.

[Marauderer]

Billy,

The boost-a-pump did well for me to the 430 RWHP level or so. I have noticed a few pressure drops, but with the 42 lb injectors the system was able to compensate just fine. But keep in mind, I think this is surfing the edge so to speak at this level, and beyond 430 or so, it just makes sense to upgrade. Besides a new fuel pump is only 2 hours and 109.00 away. Like the idea, the technology, or the way it is installed or not, you can't dispute the facts :) With the kit in its stock form, the boost-a-pump works as advertised.

As far as knock sensors go, most serious tuners just plain do not use them. At least, not seriously anyway. They are more of a catch all, then a real tool or benefit to tuning. I relocated mine as I was just starting with my SCT software, however, until it is recalibrated, the knock sensor is still not working as it should and I have just tuned without it. Again, it is not necessary at all.

Tune your A/F, up the spark, adjust your modifiers to account for increases in ECT and ACT and if you have to rely on the knock sensor in the mix, you are not being responsible. In fact, you tune without the knock sensor, then turn it back on, just because it is there :)

In closing, the boost-a-pump will do just fine until you start going crazy with modifications to your kit. Then once you reach a certain point, it is just one more simple upgrade to consider in your pursuit of HP. :rock:

[sailsmen]

I knew the Boost a Pump uped the voltage, but I didn't know until recently that the MM is a closed system.

If the Boost a Pump is wired hot outside the Voltage Regulator then what keeps the system from over psi, or is the system rated at a higher psi then the pump is when it's Boost A Pump?

[BillyGman]

Go click on the link that Logan has provided on the first page of this thread, and when you get to that site scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll see three links in blue letters........click on the second one that has to do w/"Theory of operation" and I think your question will be answered.

[Jerry Barnes]

Well, it sounds like everyone addressed your questions about the boost-a-pump and the knock sensors pretty well. As you can see we have a very knowledgeable group of customers. But, just to recap:

1. Boost-a-pump should be good to about 450 RWHP, roughly.
2. Knock sensors are not needed if the car is tuned properly, it should not be a problem. The 2003 Cobra Mustang does not have them at all, and it is a simliar set up.

Thanks for answering all the questions guys!

Jerry

[BillyGman]

WOW! I didn't know that the Supercharged Cobra does NOT come from the factory w/knock sensors. That's a very interesting point Jerry. Thanks.

[sailsmen]

Logan and Billy thanks for the link info on the KB.

The Cobra S/C engine was built for an S/C. Cast iron block and forged crank w/ a max boost set @8psi.

The pistons in our MM have a high silicone content for liter weight and titer tolerances, but they are brittle.

[BillyGman]

Actually, they're "Hypereutectic" pistons which DO have a high silicon content, and the reason why they're stronger than cast pistons is because the metal in them gets stronger as they heat up which gives them more durability. However they're not as durable as forged pistons are ofcourse.

[sailsmen]

I can't spell that and I am not even going to try to pronounce it!

[BillyGman]

Infact, I misspelled it and had to go back to spell it right. :D

[Lidio]

Just touching on this one a little….


This is how I usually pronounce that piston word “Hyper-U-tetic”.

As far as the boost-a-pump and the stock pump in the tank in the MM. Here is what I found and seen so far.

First off the Boost-a-pump is a very well designed fuel pump voltage enhancing electrical device. I’ve been using them very steady since the mid to late 90’s on a lot of EFI Ford’s.

It basically gives a fuel pump a nice bump in voltage. Most in tank and external fuel pumps don’t always get the voltage that they're rated to run at or the engine just plan demands to much from it. By the time it’s all said and done (front to back wire lenght speak), a typical intank pump will only see about 11.5 to 12V once the car is running and the alternator is doing its job. At the alternator and the battery you’ll see around 13.8 to 14Volts if every thing is OK. But at the tank where the pump is this can usually be lower by as much as 1-2 volts.

Almost any automotive 12V electrical device can handle 14-15Volts if you throw it at it. Especially things like fuel pumps and major electrical motors. Not little more sensitive things like instrumentation etc. We found early on that even if you just set the boost-a-pump up to only raise the available voltage to a given fuel pump a little, like 13.5to14V… the results were tremendous. Most pumps only see around 11ish volts. When you make a boost-a-pump give a pump this little kick it really helps.

Kenny Bell Boost-a-pumps are very reliable and for us have become very popular with the ’99 and up Ford’s with the returnless fuel systems. When we use a certain Walbro intank fuel pump in ’99 and up Cobras with the KB Boost-a-pump and 42lbs injectors… 525+ RWHP is attainable!!

The boost-a-pumps kicks in when 4psi of boost as been reached. This is achieved with a hobs switch included in every kit. Bumping the voltage like this has proven to be not harmful to anything we’ve done with this device for the last several years.

We chose to include the Boost-a-pump in the trilogy kit for a couple of simple reasons. First it saved the customer the dirty work of having to deal with installing a better pump in the tank… for some this may be an easy thing and others tougher.
Second…. I always push the stock pump as far as I can because when you change to higher flowing pumps on a returnless fuel system car, tuning with the chip can become more difficult because the algorithms is different. We know what to do here but choose not to.

At this time I’ve found along with others that mess with supercharged MM’s is I’m all done at about 440RWHP. I’ve bumped the boost-a-pump as high as I can and added as much fuel through chip programming as I can and its all maxed out. I will on my own MM be replacing the in tank pump soon. I intend to use about a 30-50 shot of NOS on my car on top of the Trilogy blower. But I have to admit... low, low 12's in the 1/4 mile for me in this car is going to be it with the blower only and no NOS. The car is uncomprimsed right now and I intend to keep it that way.

Thanks

[woaface]

Just like speakers man, they work better with more watts as long as you don't put them past their limits.

[BillyGman]

Thanks for your explanation Lidio. It's really assuring for me to hear that you're on top of things. And you've also helped me to have a better understanding of all of this. That is important to me, and I believe also is to any customer, or potential customer. ;)

and that ofcourse is the correct way to pronounce Hypereutectic.