Soft pedal

[Mr. Man]

Last Summer I replaced all 4 rotors and pads and installed the SS lines when I had a chance to G2 the calipers. After completion of the job I thought the pedal was a bit soft so I figured there was air in the lines. I then had a shop vacuum draw the lines out and still the soft pedal persisted. Next step was to go to the local dealer and have them re-bleed the lines with their machine. Pedal still remains soft.

I suppose there could be still air in the lines but it seems unlikely at this point.

If the new pads were thinner than OEM could that cause this? Running out of ideas as to why the pedal won't firm up.

Any thoughts?

[Granddaddy Marq]

Yep, I've got the "Soft Pedal" too. Can't wait to read the answers on this.

[lifespeed]

Still have the original master cylinder? They do wear out eventually, typically the pedal will occasionally travel further to the floor as it leaks past the seal internally.

[Spectragod]

Do you have ABS?

Did the shop cycle your ABS pump when they bled your brakes?

If you hold pressure on the brake pedal, does the pedal compress to the floor?
If so, you have a bad master cylinder.

Depending on if you have ABS or not, will determine which master cylinder you need, they are specific.

Thinner pads doesn't = more pedal travel.

[fastblackmerc]

Do you have ABS?

Did the shop cycle your ABS pump when they bled your brakes?

If you hold pressure on the brake pedal, does the pedal compress to the floor?
If so, you have a bad master cylinder.

Depending on if you have ABS or not, will determine which master cylinder you need, they are specific.

Thinner pads doesn't = more pedal travel.

What he said^^^^^^^^^^

I bet it's either a bad MC
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/fastblackmerc/master_cylinder.jpg (http://s167.photobucket.com/user/fastblackmerc/media/master_cylinder.jpg.html)

or the ABS needs to be cycled.

[Mr. Man]

Do you have ABS? Yes

Did the shop cycle your ABS pump when they bled your brakes? NO

If you hold pressure on the brake pedal, does the pedal compress to the floor?
If so, you have a bad master cylinder. Do you do this test with the car running? How quickly will the pedal compress, right away or say over the course of a minute or so?

Depending on if you have ABS or not, will determine which master cylinder you need, they are specific.

Thinner pads doesn't = more pedal travel. Thank Darrin I'll look into this. :)

[Spectragod]

With the car running, hold pressure on the brake pedal, if it sinks to the floor with the normal amount of pressure that you use to break, you'll need to replace the master cylinder.

If the shop didn't cycle the ABS pump when bleeding your brakes, I'll bet that's where your problem is.

[1stMerc]

Subscribing.
I've also wondered about this.

[lifespeed]

I will note that my experience with master cylinders has often been that their failure mode is intermittent long before it can be reproduced at will, ie: hold the pedal and it will slowly bleed down every time.

That said, air in the system is the typical cause for spongy pedal. Many claim that bleeding while cycling the ABS is unnecessary, they have bled it the normal way and "it works fine", etc. While it may be true that some have gotten away without doing this, I don't find these tales compelling and I would be tempted to either buy the Ford IDS tool or hire a proper bleed job.

Long term, owning the Ford IDS tool is ideal . . .

[Krytin]

I will note that my experience with master cylinders has often been that their failure mode is intermittent long before it can be reproduced at will, ie: hold the pedal and it will slowly bleed down every time.

That said, air in the system is the typical cause for spongy pedal. Many claim that bleeding while cycling the ABS is unnecessary, they have bled it the normal way and "it works fine", etc. While it may be true that some have gotten away without doing this, I don't find these tales compelling and I would be tempted to either buy the Ford IDS tool or hire a proper bleed job.

Long term, owning the Ford IDS tool is ideal . . .
Do you think this, http://www.tmart.com/IDS-VCM-Diagnostic-Tool-Scanner-for-Mazda-Ford_p119155.html?fixed_price= us_us&utm_source=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=product&gclid=CJqh27uZ_bYCFYtT4AoddhYA Wg, would be the right tool?

[lifespeed]

Do you think this, http://www.tmart.com/IDS-VCM-Diagnostic-Tool-Scanner-for-Mazda-Ford_p119155.html?fixed_price= us_us&utm_source=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=product&gclid=CJqh27uZ_bYCFYtT4AoddhYA Wg, would be the right tool?

I believe so, plugs into a laptop.

[Krytin]

That's what the description said.
It appears that there is a problem w/"clones" made in China - like this one in the link.
Gonna have to do a little more research.

[RF Overlord]

If that IDS system in the link actually worked, for $370 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[justbob]

I will note that my experience with master cylinders has often been that their failure mode is intermittent long before it can be reproduced at will, ie: hold the pedal and it will slowly bleed down every time.

That said, air in the system is the typical cause for spongy pedal. Many claim that bleeding while cycling the ABS is unnecessary, they have bled it the normal way and "it works fine", etc. While it may be true that some have gotten away without doing this, I don't find these tales compelling and I would be tempted to either buy the Ford IDS tool or hire a proper bleed job.

Long term, owning the Ford IDS tool is ideal . . .

I feel fortunate as I have done sooo many brake line related items on these as well as countless other Ford products and never once had an issue.

S.S. brake lines, line locks, calipers off for a day or two for painting, nothing. Pure luck, I know it. My days are numbered...

So which tool will do the most for the buck and which ones are a little overboard on features?


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

[martyo]

Depending on if you have ABS or not, will determine which master cylinder you need, they are specific.


All '03-'04 Marauders had ABS.

I think you meant Traction Control. There are two different master cylinders specified for these cars - one for cars with TC and one for cars without. If I recall correctly the pricing for both masters is about the same and is about $95.

The master can be replaced without cycling if it is properly bench bled but the cycling tool does make it a bit easier.

The situation described by the OP in this thread sounds like a failing master if the pedal is going soft under foot.

[Spectragod]

All '03-'04 Marauders had ABS.

I think you meant Traction Control. There are two different master cylinders specified for these cars - one for cars with TC and one for cars without. If I recall correctly the pricing for both masters is about the same and is about $95.

The master can be replaced without cycling if it is properly bench bled but the cycling tool does make it a bit easier.

The situation described by the OP in this thread sounds like a failing master if the pedal is going soft under foot.

You are correct Marty, that's what I get for responding via my phone and not proof reading.

I just used a Snap On Solus to cycle mine while bleeding the system, worked great...........

[Geewez]

What is cycling the ABS and how is that done?

[Mr. Man]

Went out and did the suggested test on brake pedal travel. The pedal easily went down about half way and then became firm. I had Paula press on the pedal while I put my ear to the master cylinder area to see if I could hear anything. Well after Paula nearly killed me by pushing on the gas pedal and revving the engine to 6000rpm we tried again and all I heard was a slight suctionee sound. Not sure if that is a normal sound or not. I don't see any dripage or leaking at the master cylinder and the fluid level seems appropriate.

Thoughts or questions? :)

[fastblackmerc]

Went out and did the suggested test on brake pedal travel. The pedal easily went down about half way and then became firm. I had Paula press on the pedal while I put my ear to the master cylinder area to see if I could hear anything. Well after Paula nearly killed me by pushing on the gas pedal and revving the engine to 6000rpm we tried again and all I heard was a slight suctionee sound. Not sure if that is a normal sound or not. I don't see any dripage or leaking at the master cylinder and the fluid level seems appropriate.

Thoughts or questions? :)

You probably won't hear anything if the MC is bad. The seals inside can be not holding pressure.

Check INSIDE the car where the brake pedal shaft comes through the firewall. See if there is any brake fluid.

[fastblackmerc]

What is cycling the ABS and how is that done?

Google is your friend.........

http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/bleeding-abs-brake-systems

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_bleeding.htm

[Geewez]

Thanks once again fastblackmerc.