Death rattle?

[ik04]

Howdy All,

During my drive home from work (600 miles), I noticed a very loud sound coming from my engine while idling. After idling for 30 seconds or so, a very loud clatter is coming from the area near the front, driver's side of the engine.

I checked the oil level and added a quart... No change. I do seriously hope the sound is coming from the power steering pump and not the timing chain/camshaft/lifter! A major repair is out of the question right now and I'll be forced to sell the car if the engine is trashed.

Has anyone experienced this loud clatter coming from the power steering pump? I'm going to remove the serpentine belt and let it idle after warming it up to isolate that possibility. A pump change I can do easily in a day. A trashed valve drivetrain I cannot...

I'll keep you all posted, but feel free to jump in here and tell me it is a cheap fix. The poor old car has 129,000 miles on it now and anything is possible.

Wish me luck!

Kevin

[WhatsUpDOHC]

Is it the pump for the air suspension?

[MOTOWN]

DO NOT let your car idle too long without the water pump rotating or you will be motor hunting!

[Mike M]

My stock engine did that right before I blew a rod out the side of the block.
Good Luck.

[ik04]

Is it the pump for the air suspension?

No. It is a clattering noise.

[ik04]

DO NOT let your car idle too long without the water pump rotating or you will be motor hunting!

The water pump is working fine. Coolant temp is normal.

UPDATE: I understand what you mean now. I will only run the engine for a minute or two with the belt off. Thanks for the warning!

[Motorhead350]

Do you have an actual oil presure gauge or the stock dummy one?

[sflrainmaker01]

If it was oil pressure, I would guess that he could hear the noise on both sides of the engine. Be careful, like already mentioned, when you remove the belt, the water pump won't turn either. Don't overheat that engine!

Just for fun, did you rule out the catalytic converter(s)? When the one on my driver's side went bad, it sounded like a bottom end knock, almost:eek:. Freaked me out for 2 days before I took it to a shop to put on a lift and diagnose. Scary stuff. Sometimes these sounds resonate and it is hard to isolate.

[ik04]

If it was oil pressure, I would guess that he could hear the noise on both sides of the engine. Be careful, like already mentioned, when you remove the belt, the water pump won't turn either. Don't overheat that engine!

Just for fun, did you rule out the catalytic converter(s)? When the one on my driver's side went bad, it sounded like a bottom end knock, almost:eek:. Freaked me out for 2 days before I took it to a shop to put on a lift and diagnose. Scary stuff. Sometimes these sounds resonate and it is hard to isolate.

I plan to warm up the engine first until it clatters, then remove the belt and only run it for maybe two minutes. If it is internal engine damage, it will be obvious within a few seconds. The sound is coming from the front of the engine, but I'll crawl underneath and listen there too!

I plan to work on the car later today, so I'll post my findings as soon as I know anything...

[ik04]

Do you have an actual oil presure gauge or the stock dummy one?

I have the stock fake gauge. I wish I had a real one!

[ik04]

OK, here is what happened today:

I started the car cold (90 degrees OAT) and within 15 seconds, it made the noise. It sounds like metal scraping and appears in a sequence of about 30 loud noises followed by maybe 45-60 seconds of no sound. Then it repeats.

I immediately removed the serpentine belt and started the engine. No bad noises. I ran it for two minutes at idle and slightly above idle. Nothing...

Belt back on- noises came right back. I thought it could be the AC compressor pulley, but the sound came from the left front of the engine and the AC was off, so no compressor involvement.

The water pump is the original one and the bearings were quiet and had only a slight amount of axial play. The power steering pump shaft turned smoothly also, but it had lots of axial play, maybe 4-5mm. No radial play at all.

I'm going to guess that the oil pump and timing chains are not involved just because the noise does not occur with the belt off, even though that is the area the noise is coming from. The power steering pump is the prime suspect at this point and I will pull it off tomorrow and inspect it for any damage or wear...

I replaced all three idler/tensioner pulleys earlier this year, so they are not suspects.

I'll report my findings as they happen!

Wish me luck!:eek:

Kevin

[MMBLUE]

Power steering pump :confused:

[larryo340]

OK, here is what happened today:

I started the car cold (90 degrees OAT) and within 15 seconds, it made the noise. It sounds like metal scraping and appears in a sequence of about 30 loud noises followed by maybe 45-60 seconds of no sound. Then it repeats.

I immediately removed the serpentine belt and started the engine. No bad noises. I ran it for two minutes at idle and slightly above idle. Nothing...

Belt back on- noises came right back. I thought it could be the AC compressor pulley, but the sound came from the left front of the engine and the AC was off, so no compressor involvement.

The water pump is the original one and the bearings were quiet and had only a slight amount of axial play. The power steering pump shaft turned smoothly also, but it had lots of axial play, maybe 4-5mm. No radial play at all.

I'm going to guess that the oil pump and timing chains are not involved just because the noise does not occur with the belt off, even though that is the area the noise is coming from. The power steering pump is the prime suspect at this point and I will pull it off tomorrow and inspect it for any damage or wear...

I replaced all three idler/tensioner pulleys earlier this year, so they are not suspects.

I'll report my findings as they happen!

Wish me luck!:eek:

Kevin
When you say left side of the engine do you mean driver side or from looking at it standing at the front of the car? If it's on the passenger-side with the air conditioning it could be the AC pulley bearings which are always turning whenever the engine is running. The AC pulley bearing went bad on my Grand Marquis and it sounded like an engine knock.

[a_d_a_m]

Definitely sounds like one of the accessory pullies; just have to figure out which one.

Since you mentioned the timing chain tensioners, I will tell you that after digging into my engine last year at 108k (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82117), they were worn to the point that they needed to be replaced. Once you find/fix the culprit, you may want to shell out a few bucks and send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis. They will be able to give you an idea if something is amiss inside.

[Marauderjack]

Probably one of the fixed idlers scraping the front housing when the A/C clutch engages!!:cool:

Check them for wobble when you have the belt off!!:beer:

[ik04]

Probably one of the fixed idlers scraping the front housing when the A/C clutch engages!!:cool:

Check them for wobble when you have the belt off!!:beer:

Nope. I just replaced all the idlers and tensioner six months ago and they are smooth...

[ik04]

When you say left side of the engine do you mean driver side or from looking at it standing at the front of the car? If it's on the passenger-side with the air conditioning it could be the AC pulley bearings which are always turning whenever the engine is running. The AC pulley bearing went bad on my Grand Marquis and it sounded like an engine knock.

It is the Driver's side. I suspected the compressor pulley at first, but the clutch clicks on and off with no associated sounds. I wonder if some kind of debris in the water pump could be scraping?

One thing at a time. I am working on the power steering pump now...

[Marauderjack]

Ain't much left but the Power Steering pump and Water Pump then??:confused:

Good Luck!! :beer:

[RF Overlord]

The important part is that it doesn't make the sound with the belt off. At least now you know the problem isn't internal and therefor not expensive or fatal. I'm happy for you... :D

[ik04]

OK, here's the story:

1. Removed the power steering pump (not too painful), went to the parts stores to get a pump. Nobody had one. One place could get me one by five pm. Watched them damn near herniate themselves getting the pulley off...

2. Went back to the store at five, bought the new pump. Watched the circus of installing the pulley on the new pump. Hilarious...

3. Had to rush to get the pump on before dark. Delayed by a freak windstorm that blew crap in my eye and it took 30 minutes to get whatever it was out of my eye. ;) Got the pump on, attempted to prime it and reinstalled the serpentine belt.

4. Started the engine... No noise. Ran it for ten minutes to check for leaks and waited for the horrible sound to come back. No noise. Took the car off the jacks, put away the tools and cleaned everything up, thinking all is well.

5. Started the engine to work the steering to help bleed the pump. The new pump is noisy and shudders when I turn the wheel... Hopefully it will bleed itself out in a day or so...

6. Then the horrible noise came back. All that work and it was not the power steering pump at all.. I was not happy.

7. I noticed (now, dumass!), that the noise repeated at the same speed, regardless of engine RPM. Frustrated, I leaned over the radiator shroud and listened one more time to locate the noise.

8. Then I noticed the terrible vibrations coming from under my elbows each time the horrible noise repeated.

9. It's the radiator fan.

10. I'll be busy tomorrow and Monday tearing it apart and fixing/replacing stuff...

Feel free to laugh and point at the idiot who could not figure out it was the electric fan all along.

I'm done now... Good night.

[sam]

Glad you figured it out bud

[lji372]

If you insist

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Good news is you know your old power steering pump is still good and now you have a spare:beer:



Good to see you to it all sorted out:banana2:

[Marauderjack]

Then why was it NOT making the noise with the belt off??:confused:

The fan and belt have NOTHING to do with each other!!:shake:

[Mike M]

Then why was it NOT making the noise with the belt off??:confused:

The fan and belt have NOTHING to do with each other!!:shake:

Because he didn't run it long enough with the belt off to get engine hot enough for cooling fan to come on.

[JoeBoomz]

That's a good story to laugh about once the soreness passes!

I've paid to get a starter replaced before (in another vehicle, not the marauder) and the problem turned out to be a poor connection on the positive battery terminal. It happens to the best of us.

The marauder steering pump is easy to work with. Just a PITA pulley to swap.

[ik04]

The whole fan, motor and shroud are a unit and cost way North of $400.00!

Is there any quick way to find just the fan? I really don't want to go dumpster diving at a wrecking yard...

[ik04]

The whole fan, motor and shroud are a unit and cost way North of $400.00!

Is there any quick way to find just the fan? I really don't want to go dumpster diving at a wrecking yard...

I found a complete replacement assembly for $216.00 locally. Whew!

[RF Overlord]

Be wary of aftermarket fan assemblies. Apparently they are prone to spontaneous combustion. I would go dumpster-diving for a good blade before replacing the entire thing.

BTW, don't feel too bad...I was doing a coolant flush on The Blackbird when I head what I thought was a rod-knock. I panicked and shut down the engine. It wasn't until I head the "rod knock" keep going and slowing down after the motor had stopped that I realised it was the fan. I never felt happier than at that moment.

[ik04]

Be wary of aftermarket fan assemblies. Apparently they are prone to spontaneous combustion. I would go dumpster-diving for a good blade before replacing the entire thing.

BTW, don't feel too bad...I was doing a coolant flush on The Blackbird when I head what I thought was a rod-knock. I panicked and shut down the engine. It wasn't until I head the "rod knock" keep going and slowing down after the motor had stopped that I realised it was the fan. I never felt happier than at that moment.

Amen to that!