High IAT fuel pump shut down

[Mike M]

About a month ago my car stalled at a traffic light, I was watching my ScanGauge and noticed when my IAT temps got to about 130 degrees my fuel pump would shut down.

It seems like my FPDM was going into thermal shut down.

I got a modified FPDM and today it happened again. This time the IAT got to 146 degrees and it happened again (at the same dam traffic light!!!). I got it home and let it idle in my hot garage and waited for the IAT to get to 146 and sure enough the fuel pump pressure went from the 50's down to the 20's and of course it died.

I believe the modified FPDM helped but not sure where to go from here.

May not be a problem when temps cool down but that isn't really a fix.

[Limited360]

With intake temps that high you may be boiling your fuel in the rails... is this on 93 octane 10% ethanol or 85% ethanol?

Do you know what the FPDC (Fuel Pump Duty Cycle) is at when this occurs?

Are you running a boost a pump on the Stryker 340 pump?

Are you running OEM power wires for the pump?


I've seen cars not start due to high underhood temps boiling the fuel in the rails, makes injecting it a rather difficult task!

[Mike M]

With intake temps that high you may be boiling your fuel in the rails... is this on 93 octane 10% ethanol or 85% ethanol?

Do you know what the FPDC (Fuel Pump Duty Cycle) is at when this occurs?

Are you running a boost a pump on the Stryker 340 pump?

Are you running OEM power wires for the pump?


I've seen cars not start due to high under hood temps boiling the fuel in the rails, makes injecting it a rather difficult task!

I run 91 octane (that's all we have out here) and I run 5 gallons of E85 in the tank every fill up.
I never installed my boost a pump

All wires OEM.

Don't know what the duty cycle was at.

I do know the fuel pump pressure dropped to 20 before it died.

Wondering if it is the fuel boiling in the rails is the E85 aggravating it or helping it.

I may stop the E85 as a test. I do run Meth Injection so the 5 gallons of E-85 probably isn't needed for octane.

[Marauderjack]

Mike......

I am guessing here but I suspect the Ethanol (E-85) is your culprit in that it vaporizes at about 170*F and the fuel system is set up for gasoline which has a higher vapor pressure and probably a higher boiling point??:confused:

Effectively you are getting "Vapor Lock" in your fuel system.....I think??:bandit:

Go back to just gasoline or 10% blend and see what happens!!:beer:

BTW...where are you that you have 146* IAT's......."Earth" is a big place!!;) I seldom see IAT's of 125* and it's H-O-T here in Beaufort!!:confused:

Good Luck!!

[justbob]

Mike......

I am guessing here but I suspect the Ethanol (E-85) is your culprit in that it vaporizes at about 170*F and the fuel system is set up for gasoline which has a higher vapor pressure and probably a higher boiling point??:confused:

My under hood temps have melted and warped my MAF and my JLT tube and no issues here (besides the obvious heat) Still on the stock wiring, stock FPDM, BAP hooked up to Trilogy's specs, -8 feed, and 340 Aeromotive.

Effectively you are getting "Vapor Lock" in your fuel system.....I think??:bandit:

Go back to just gasoline or 10% blend and see what happens!!:beer:

BTW...where are you that you have 146* IAT's......."Earth" is a big place!!;) I seldom see IAT's of 125* and it's H-O-T here in Beaufort!!:confused:

Good Luck!!




Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[sailsmen]

My IAT is located in my intake manifold resulting in high closed throttle temps and my pump is not shutting off.
The higher fuel pressure is to increase the boiling point. I assume the temp in fuel rails is lower.
Where is your IAT located?

[Mike M]

Mike......

I am guessing here but I suspect the Ethanol (E-85) is your culprit in that it vaporizes at about 170*F and the fuel system is set up for gasoline which has a higher vapor pressure and probably a higher boiling point??:confused:

Effectively you are getting "Vapor Lock" in your fuel system.....I think??:bandit:

Go back to just gasoline or 10% blend and see what happens!!:beer:

BTW...where are you that you have 146* IAT's......."Earth" is a big place!!;) I seldom see IAT's of 125* and it's H-O-T here in Beaufort!!:confused:

Good Luck!!


Next tank will be without E85, Arizona

[Mike M]

My IAT is located in my intake manifold resulting in high closed throttle temps and my pump is not shutting off.
The higher fuel pressure is to increase the boiling point. I assume the temp in fuel rails is lower.
Where is your IAT located?

It is in my M.A.F.

Not sure if the pump actually shuts off or if the possible vapor lock is causing the fuel pressure to drop with the pump running. I will have to look at duty cycle next time.

[RacerX]

The 340s draw a lot of current and the wiring should be upgraded for one. Typically the PCM will raise fuel pressure with high IATs and pull a little timing. Higher pressure helps slow boiling and the injectors just have shorter pulses with the increased pressure. Upping pressure will draw more current. Upgrade the wiring imho.

[Mike M]

I will look into that ...thanks

[Limited360]

Yeah my guess is that your drawing too much current through stock lines when the pump is trying to keep the pressure up to avoid vapor lock....

Try monitoring the FPDC and just let it idle at home till it shuts down again

[sailsmen]

Assuming your MAF is located before the throttle body you should not be seeing IAT temps of 146. Something is wrong.

[Mike M]

Assuming your MAF is located before the throttle body you should not be seeing IAT temps of 146. Something is wrong.


That's what I though but it is in my maf. Don't know what I could do to change it's temperature.
It was 108 yesterday and driving down the road it was about 128 - 130 but it creeps up at idle.

[RacerX]

Those temps are at the MAF? You're sucking in a lot of engine heat. Me too. :D

[sailsmen]

Do you have a blow thru MAF and are you venting to atnos?

You may want to look at a way to reduce any engine heated air.

[Mike M]

Do you have a blow thru MAF and are you venting to atnos?

You may want to look at a way to reduce any engine heated air.

Show me a picture of your setup when you get a chance.

Here is mine.

[Limited360]

Gents the high IAT's dont directly correlate to temps in the fuel rail. IAT's will fluctuate more with engine rpm and load, however it does indicate you have high under hood temps.

At 108F outside I would expect to see issues with vapor lock due to under hood temps.

I've had OEM stock Jaguar's on a test trip before, 105F ambient temps, however underhood temps got to 150F+ during short idles. We had cars that wouldn't restart after stopping for fuel.

I still think more of a concern is around how hard its driving the fuel pump and the added heat from increased current to the upgraded pump

[RacerX]

Gents the high IAT's dont directly correlate to temps in the fuel rail.
Correct, but, it does raise fuel pressure because it anticipates fuel temp is going to be higher. It's written into the pcm oem tune and most tuners leave that stock. (I'm looking as those tables in SCT PRP right now)

[Limited360]

Correct, but, it does raise fuel pressure because it anticipates fuel temp is going to be higher. It's written into the pcm oem tune and most tuners leave that stock. (I'm looking as those tables in SCT PRP right now)

Ah... so its referenced... So basically it may be over driving the pump until it falls on its face based on the IAT table...

Can you post a screen shot of the table?

I really need to get my PRP dongle... lost mine years ago.

[Mike M]

I would hate to change the tune when the real culprit is probably high under hood temps. In another month it probably wont be an issue but the summers here last about 6 months. Would love a way to lower IAT temps.

After this tank of gas that has 5 gallons of E85 I will go all gasoline which will help if it's a vapor lock condition but if it's the fuel pump drawing too much amperage I'm not sure supplying the modified FPDM with heavier gauge wire will really help if it's the FPDM that is doing a thermal shut down.

[Limited360]

I would hate to change the tune when the real culprit is probably high under hood temps. In another month it probably wont be an issue but the summers here last about 6 months. Would love a way to lower IAT temps.

After this tank of gas that has 5 gallons of E85 I will go all gasoline which will help if it's a vapor lock condition but if it's the fuel pump drawing too much amperage I'm not sure supplying the modified FPDM with heavier gauge wire will really help if it's the FPDM that is doing a thermal shut down.

Get a thermocouple and a fluke meter and measure actual temps by fuel rail...

I take all of this for granted as all these rolls are available toe through my job...

I'd upgrade the wiring for the pump regardless if I were you. Main reason I stuck with OEM pump was it's known to be fine on stock wiring at high FPDC's

I think you need that boost a pump setup as well.

What's the cars wheel horsepower?

[sailsmen]

Vent to atnos and it will reduce your IAT.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1190756#post1 190756

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/00111.JPG

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/0029.JPG

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/0035.JPG

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/0046.JPG

[Vortech347]

The newer fuel pumps need 10 gauge wiring minimum. I ran into this with my Aeromotive 340.

Also, E85 sucks ass. Sorry Ethey lovers... It destroys pumps, clogs filters, and all sorts of other crap. I would not be throwing in a "mix" that the car isn't specifically tuned for. These cars are not flex fuel capable of knowing how to adjust. Unless they are specifically tuned for it.

With intake temps so high, might be time to replace your IC pump.

[Mike M]

Get a thermocouple and a fluke meter and measure actual temps by fuel rail...

I take all of this for granted as all these rolls are available toe through my job...

I'd upgrade the wiring for the pump regardless if I were you. Main reason I stuck with OEM pump was it's known to be fine on stock wiring at high FPDC's

I think you need that boost a pump setup as well.

What's the cars wheel horsepower?

I'll measure the fuel rail tomorrow...HP unknown. Will probably dyno when it gets cooler.

[Mike M]

The newer fuel pumps need 10 gauge wiring minimum. I ran into this with my Aeromotive 340.

Also, E85 sucks ass. Sorry Ethey lovers... It destroys pumps, clogs filters, and all sorts of other crap. I would not be throwing in a "mix" that the car isn't specifically tuned for. These cars are not flex fuel capable of knowing how to adjust. Unless they are specifically tuned for it.

With intake temps so high, might be time to replace your IC pump.

No IC pump, centrifugal. Will try no E85 next tank.

[Mike M]

Vent to atnos and it will reduce your IAT.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1190756#post1 190756

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/00111.JPG

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/0029.JPG

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/0035.JPG

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/0046.JPG

Vent to atmosphere...hmmmm this interest me.

Tell me more...can you take a close up of that?

Thanks

[Marauderjack]

It just occurred to me that you are adding 5 gallons of E-85 to your fuel....not good!!:shake:

Ethanol in gasoline is very unstable above 10% and below 85% so in effect you may be brewing a BIG mess in your fuel system by adding the E-85 to your gasoline??:eek:

When the phases separate they clog filters and the resulting mess cannot be blended back into usable fuel......at least that's what I have been told!!

I'd get rid of the E-85 mixture and replace the fuel filter and see what happens with just gasoline??:confused:

Good Luck!!

[Mike M]

It just occurred to me that you are adding 5 gallons of E-85 to your fuel....not good!!:shake:

Ethanol in gasoline is very unstable above 10% and below 85% so in effect you may be brewing a BIG mess in your fuel system by adding the E-85 to your gasoline??:eek:

When the phases separate they clog filters and the resulting mess cannot be blended back into usable fuel......at least that's what I have been told!!

I'd get rid of the E-85 mixture and replace the fuel filter and see what happens with just gasoline??:confused:

Good Luck!!

Wow, I never heard of that before but it sounds like another good reason to go straight gasoline.

Since I did meth injection I really won't need the extra octane of the E-85.

[sailsmen]

Mount the BOV on the discharge pipe, where Vortech recs. Just put an elbow divert if it discharges straight down on the ground or the dust will clog your air filter.
This assumes you have a blow throw MAF mounted after the intercooler.

[Mike M]

Mount the BOV on the discharge pipe, where Vortech recs. Just put an elbow divert if it discharges straight down on the ground or the dust will clog your air filter.
This assumes you have a blow throw MAF mounted after the intercooler.

Mine is a draw threw.

[sailsmen]

Ok, now I can see it in the 1st pic. It won't work with a SUCK threw.

Sorry could not resist.

Hey if it works it works.

[1stMerc]

What maf do you have that the iat is still in it? If it's still in the stock like location you have serious under hood heat and it is being sucked in thru the filter. Like you say you're in Arizona and it does get really hot there. I'd also upgrade the wiring to the fuel pump. You could be suffering a brown out condition where its not getting enough juice.

[Mike M]

What maf do you have that the iat is still in it? If it's still in the stock like location you have serious under hood heat and it is being sucked in thru the filter. Like you say you're in Arizona and it does get really hot there. I'd also upgrade the wiring to the fuel pump. You could be suffering a brown out condition where its not getting enough juice.


I have a Lightning Maf. Am I the only guy who left the IAT active in the MAF?

[guspech750]

I have a Lightning Maf. Am I the only guy who left the IAT active in the MAF?

I was under the impression that the 90mm Lightning MAF doesn't have an IAT sensor. At least that's what I saw on mine compared to my old stock 80mm MAF.

Maybe I'm crazy.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[1stMerc]

It doesn't or least mine doesn't. Put one in the tube leading to the throttle body.

[Limited360]

It doesn't or least mine doesn't. Put one in the tube leading to the throttle body.


This! At a minimum post intercooler... Closer to intake manifold the better.

[Mike M]

So I just buy a IAT and use the MAF wires to wire it? What application to buy the IAT?

Show me a picture of your setup.

Thanks

[guspech750]

Lightning IAT from the supercharged versions work well.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[sailsmen]

So I just buy a IAT and use the MAF wires to wire it? What application to buy the IAT?

Show me a picture of your setup.

Thanks

Put it after the Meth, see
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73919

[justbob]

Okay, just now having the exact same issues and its been fine all summer. I also noticed my fan isn't kicking on till 194 even though I am tuned with a 170 stat.

IATs are averaging 40-50* above ambient and will definitely climb unless I get moving. Keep in mind I am running 20.5#'s through through the unported Trilogy, so heat is obviously an issue.

This fuel issue seems to have more to do with engine temps than IATS according to my data log. Every time it neared 194, the fan would finally kick on, but too little too late. By the time it goes down to 190, the fuel pressure that was up to almost 60 DROPPED to 18 and started its downfall to 8 before I shut her down. At the exact same time the FPDC went from a steady .30 to .49 in a blink of an eye and stayed there.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[Mike M]

Can't tell ya how happy I am you have the same problem as I do. (just kidding).

Who tuned it and what software did they use to adjust your fan? I have a story on that issue.

[guspech750]

Can't tell ya how happy I am you have the same problem as I do. (just kidding).

Who tuned it and what software did they use to adjust your fan? I have a story on that issue.

Spill the beans man. Lets hear it.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[justbob]

Can't tell ya how happy I am you have the same problem as I do. (just kidding).

Who tuned it and what software did they use to adjust your fan? I have a story on that issue.

Modular powerhouse (used to be Mr. Norms.) I listed a 170 stat for one of my mods, but either he didn't adjust or my coolant temp switch is going. I will let it idle later tonight or tomorrow with the defrost on and I almost guarantee I will not have cooked fuel.

I've had issues, although very rare, of super hard to get rolling at lights in 90* plus weather with the A/C on max, but once going zero issues. I didn't even have the air on today, but was in bumper to bumper traffic for about 15 minutes at 91*.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[Mike M]

Ok, I bought the full package from Delta Force to do my own tuning mainly because I didn't trust tuners in my area.

I bought it from Willy from Dirty Dirty racing. He seems to be a very nice guy and is helping me out quite a bit...anyway after I bought everything (hardware - software) I got started and installed the tune in the car. One of the most important things I wanted to change was my fan settings as well as tweak the fuel trim and timing.
After changing the settings as per Reische thermostats recomendations I installed the tune. Started car up and when I put car in reverse to back out of the shop, the second the wheels started to turn, my speedo went crazy 0-120 mph and the engine started cutting off and died. To make this story shorter (I'm leaving out a lot) I called and spoke with the owner of Delta Force and exchanged about 40 emails. He tried to help as best he could but he came to the realization that his tables in his software were all screwed up (his words ) and he wasn't sure how long it would take to have his programmers fix it or if they would even try (India or Russian programmers).

After asking for my money back he said I didn't buy it from him so he couldnt help me. I see his point in a way.

Anyway back to Willy and the cooling fan.

Willy has looked at the software and said that in its present state the software was not going to work. He has been emailing me tunes to adjust the A/F trims, I load em then drive for several days watching my A/F gauge and he makes adjustments. We are close to a good tune, then I will mail out my PCM and he is going to do some in house trickery to make the fan settings come on about 175.

Willy has been good about this. I really don't want him to have to refund the money I paid. It's not his fault and he is helping me out.

Also look at what I found from 2008, do we know this person...is he on this site? I would like to talk to him.
http://www.snipertuningforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=3376

[Vortech347]

This maybe related to your FPDM shutdown.

I just swapped out the aeromotive 340 in my fox to a Walbro 400 yesterday(less amps and more flow). During the process I noticed the plug at the fuel hat was completely melted. Those little 340's pull MASSIVE amperage. Personally I'd never run one through a FPDM after seeing the melting/damage it caused.

[Mike M]

This maybe related to your FPDM shutdown.

I just swapped out the aeromotive 340 in my fox to a Walbro 400 yesterday(less amps and more flow). During the process I noticed the plug at the fuel hat was completely melted. Those little 340's pull MASSIVE amperage. Personally I'd never run one through a FPDM after seeing the melting/damage it caused.

I will check.

[justbob]

Also look at what I found from 2008, do we know this person...is he on this site? I would like to talk to him.
http://www.snipertuningforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=3376
I believe that is RRSuki.



Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[Mike M]

I believe that is RRSuki.



Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"


I will PM him.

[Mike M]

Put it after the Meth, see
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73919


I don't think this will help my problem. My IAT temps are way to high at extended stops/idling. Moving the IAT into the manifold won't change this.

I could see under acceleration the IAT getting a cooler charge via the meth but not at idle.

[Sully008]

You may also want to try and pm Taemian, as I believe he also has the Sniper tuning software.

[sailsmen]

The problem is not the location of your sensor or the reading of high IATs.
The problem is something else.

Fix the problem and mount your IAT where it gives you a proper reading.

[Mike M]

You may also want to try and pm Taemian, as I believe he also has the Sniper tuning software.

Will do...thanks

[sailsmen]

There are a couple of hundred S/C MMs that can see IATs exceed 150* at the end of the ¼ or closed throttle.
When I went to a T Trim with a water to air my IATs were 240*at the end of the ¼. Switching to air to air and they were 155* at the end of the ¼. With the Meth they are ~20* above ambient.
Non IC Mustangs frequently hit IATs of 220*.
None of these have their fuel systems shutting down.
Good Luck. I hope you fix the problem and get your MM set up so you can enjoy it.:)

[Marauderjack]

I still contend the higher concentration of Ethanol puts you in a grey area as far as fuel stability and what gets to your fuel rails boils with Summer under hood temps regardless of IAT's!!:cool:

I know nothing about Sniper Tuning so there could lie another problem as well??:confused:

You may save yourself a lot of time and effort by draining your fuel tank and putting good fuel in it!!:beer:

[Mike M]

I still contend the higher concentration of Ethanol puts you in a grey area as far as fuel stability and what gets to your fuel rails boils with Summer under hood temps regardless of IAT's!!:cool:

I know nothing about Sniper Tuning so there could lie another problem as well??:confused:

You may save yourself a lot of time and effort by draining your fuel tank and putting good fuel in it!!:beer:

I'm a few days away from an empty tank.

[justbob]

I'm a few days away from an empty tank.

I believe my issues are directly related to under hood temps from my non ported Trilogy @ 20#s (which has yet to cause an issue) but now throwing in non coated Stainless headers on top of that. My under hood temps are utterly ridiculous even with the cowl hood. For now I have heat wrapped the rails and line as it comes up the driver side and hugs the firewall before entering the rail and that creates a bad dead zone of -8 quantity fuel sitting with zero air flow. The Jerry rigging I did seems to be working and should get me home at least. IATs are only 25 over on the highway, 45 or so in town and reach a max of 156* idling with the A/C for over an hour trying to get the fuel pump to max out but pressure staying at 56 and duty cycle staying put at .32. Before the wrap, it would have shut down in 10 minutes.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[Mike M]

I believe my issues are directly related to under hood temps from my non ported Trilogy @ 20#s (which has yet to cause an issue) but now throwing in non coated Stainless headers on top of that. My under hood temps are utterly ridiculous even with the cowl hood. For now I have heat wrapped the rails and line as it comes up the driver side and hugs the firewall before entering the rail and that creates a bad dead zone of -8 quantity fuel sitting with zero air flow. The Jerry rigging I did seems to be working and should get me home at least. IATs are only 25 over on the highway, 45 or so in town and reach a max of 156* idling with the A/C for over an hour trying to get the fuel pump to max out but pressure staying at 56 and duty cycle staying put at .32. Before the wrap, it would have shut down in 10 minutes.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"


Those temps are about the same as mine. This is another reason I would like to go return style fuel system in the future.