New alcohol fuel additive problems

[jaywish]

Hi,

I had occasion today to ask a NY Ford service manager about what necessitated a plug & filter replacement on a car I'm looking at. This was odd as the car only had about 4K on it.

He said they have had numerous water in fuel incidents like this since the Fed has switched us to the alcohol gasoline additive.

Coincidentally my marina sent out a flyer warning all the boat owners about this problem. According to the flyer, with the new alcohol additive any water in the tank may readily become suspended and difuse in the gasoline.

This differs is completly from what we normally expect water to do which is roll around on the bottom of the tank. They advise cleaning the tanks and carrying (3) spare water removing fuel filters to combat this problem.

What a P.I.A. (royal) if I do say so.

(thanks Brian)

[BillyGman]

uh, what are "water removing" fuel filters??

[jgc61sr2002]

They are water separaters used mainly on boats.

[merc406]

And diesels. ^

[BillyGman]

Okay, but do they have to be installed in place of your stock fuel filters? Or are you guys talking of some type of liquid chemical "filter"???

[SergntMac]

Jay...I think the symptoms you describe on that car you're looking at, as a by product of someone who fills up their gas tank when it get to half a tank. Once they do run out of gas, it's all crap at the bottom of the tank. of course, so is bock beer...

I always run my MM down to the "low fuel" light, the chance for water to collect to any sizable degree in the bottom of the tank is much less when you empty the tank. Moreover, every so often, I add a pint of isoproply alcohol, which absorbs water and carries it out of the fuel system. If y'all don't think this is a good idea, add a can of Heat every once in a while, does the same thing...IMHO.

[teamrope]

Moreover, every so often, I add a pint of isoproply alcohol, which absorbs water and carries it out of the fuel system.

Years ago I had water in the fuel ice up in cold weather, and that also worked to "thaw it out".

[HookedOnCV]

Let's see here. Alcohol seperates out water from your fuel causing it to get in your fuel filter???:bs: :bs: :bs:

I don't think so! Alcohol absorbs water. Just like Mac said, add a can of Heat (which is isopropyl alcohol) to absorb water in your fuel system. This is what you do in the colder states to prevent your fuel lines from freezing up due to water in the fuel from the gas stations.

10% ethynol is added to gas nearly everywhere here in the midwest. It is derived primarily from corn, and is quite a business of its own here in Minnesota. All of the Minneapolis / St. Paul metro area normally sells gas with ethynol in it to give us all "cleaner air". It is in all three grades of gas (87, 89, and 92/93 octane). It is rare to find a gas station that sells premium non-ethynol fuel here. People have been running it in their cars (including Marauders) since the mid 80's or so and there are no adverse effects. No extra fuel filter, spark plug changes, etc.

2 cycle engines are another story. If at all possible, use non-ethynol fuel in those engines. Not sure of all the reasons, but I have heard of problems several years ago. Maybe that's what the marina's are talking about?

California will be getting ethynol in place of their more expensive MTB?? something additive sometime in the near future. Again, to help promote a cleaner environment. It is a renewable fuel resource!

Another blend is 85% ethynol/15% gas which is becoming more popular. Any "Flexible Fuel Vehicle" (FFV) equipped car - lots of Taurus' have this option can switch back and forth at any time. From what I understand the octane is super high (120?), it is 15-20% cheaper than regular 10% ethynol gas, but your milage sucks.

[BillyGman]

Hooked On CV, I just want to add a minor correction, or a footnote to your last post.You stated that "Heet" is Isoprpyl Alcohol. I believe there might be two kinds of "Heet", but the bottle of "Heet" that I'm holding in my hand right now states that it has Methanol (aka "Methyl" Alcohol).

perhaps the other type of Heet has Isopropyl. I dunno. But this one that I have doesn't. Not that any of that neccessarily changes the conclusions that you drew in your post, but I just wanted to point that out for clarification.

[SergntMac]

Hooked On CV, I just want to add a minor correction, or a footnote to your last post.You stated that "Heet" is Isoprpyl Alcohol. I believe there might be two kinds of "Heet", but the bottle of "Heet" that I'm holding in my hand right now states that it has Methanol (aka "Methyl" Alcohol). perhaps the other type of Heet has Isopropyl. I dunno. But this one that I have doesn't. Not that any of that neccessarily changes the conclusions that you drew in your post, but I just wanted to point that out for clarification.
Well, here you are again, Billy, sorting out the fine aspects. Nice job too!

Any chance you help me understand the differences between methyl and isopropyl alcohols? Both absorb water, and both are combustible...Which one should I use to address the problem? Thanks in advance...

[Dr Caleb]

Any chance you help me understand the differences between methyl and isopropyl alcohols? Both absorb water, and both are combustible...Which one should I use to address the problem? Thanks in advance...

Three basic types - Methyl, ethyl and Isopropyl Alcohols. The first is what you find in normal beer, wine etc and can be easily made from wheat, potatoes and other vegetables/fruits/grains. Ethyl is made typically from wood or cellulose and is poisionous. Isoporpyl is also poisionous.

Just a suggestion, I've been filling my cars up with gasoline + 10% Methanol (corn) alcohol for many years, through both seasons (winter and road construction) and it's never been a problem. The Crown Vic's been running 12 years on the stuff, and even at -40 I don't have to add fuel stabilizer or fuel line anti-freeze. The CV has never not started for me, and the coldest I've started it at was -57.

Husky/Mowhawk has always had 10% Methanol in their premium fuel since as long as I can remember.

My advice - use the Methanol, it's easier and cheaper to produce and it's proven to not harm the vehicle or fuel system.

[BillyGman]

I don't want to turn this thread into a medical report of sorts, but according to my medical book, Dr Caleb got it backwards. Methyl Alcohol is poisenous and cannot be ingested, and Ethyl Alcohol is the type used in alcoholic beverages.

Anyway, let me address what you asked MAC. I had conceded that the conclusion being drawn about ANY alcohol dispersing or displacing water/moisture wasn't effected or made inaccurate by what I was stating concerning this producted called "Heet". I was simply pointing out a "minor" detail. Just providing a little fine-tuned analysis. That's all.I wasn't attempting to challenge Hooked On CV. Just clarifying something minor concerning what he had stated. t might not make any difference which type of alcohol is used. I dunno. I'm not positive on that. Propbably nothing to worry about though.



I've been told that there are two different types of this "Heet" product, and that they come in different colored bottles(one being yellow, w/blue letters, and I think that the other is a red bottle). I'm not sure if the red bottle has something different than Methanol in it, although I've been told that it does. If that's true then perhaps the company of such products has reason to offer them w/different solvents in them. Who knows?

An interesting side note is that there are some people who use illegal injectable drugs, who purchase "Heet" for their drug conversion process. And it's the Methanol that they're after.

[FordNut]

All 3 types of alcohol have similar effects on water and gasoline. Most additives use either methanol or ethanol. Methanol is a common cleaning solvent, is also referred to as wood alcohol, and is toxic. Isopropanol is the same thing as isopropyl alcohol, or rubbing alcohol, is commonly used as an antiseptic, and is also toxic. Ethanol is distilled from corn, wheat, fruit, etc. and is the active ingredient in beer, wine, hard liquor, etc. An interesting study was done by a motorcycle related organization which concluded that ethanol was more effective than any other type. It surprised me, as I expected methanol to be better.

[Dr Caleb]

You are correct BillyG, my bad. "Always trust Ethyl". I can never remember except Whisky is in brown bottles, and Scotch is in green ones.

But there is one difference FordNut - Isopropanol is also more acidic that ethier of the others, and can cause damage to plastic and rubber parts.

[BillyGman]

Good info FordNut. There are a number of different types of alcohol. There's also "Denatured" alcohol, and Benzyl Alcohol. The latter being the type that is used by many pharmacuetical companies in a good portion of their injectable drugs as well as some of their cosmetic products too.

[jaywish]

All of this seems to support the info from my marina.

The alcohol additive will put the water in suspension as opposed to letting it remain in the bottom of the tank.

I agree with sergeantmac and run my auto tanks down to the "E" almost every time. I've never had a problem on a car I've maintained like that.

Again what we have here is a marina (where water, temperature fluctuations and long storage are very common ) reporting a potentially large problem for boats and a Ford dealer reporting a now increasing problem with cars.

IMHO this will probably be much more of a problem for boaters but it sure seems like some cars will be hit by it.

No science here but, as a guess ...

After the changeover is made and whatever water has accumulated has been run through the system (hopefully without stalling the engine) then the frequency of water problems will decrease. Which fits with those of you who always use an alcohol blend fuel.

Jay

[teamrope]

ll of this talk about alcohol is making me thursty! :beer: