Trilogy with 3.2 pulley, Spark Advance

[Limited360]

What are you guys seeing for Spark advance on 93 octane @ wot?

I am running 9.7 psi, kooks headers.... all in signature.

I see typically 11 degrees of spark. The knock sensor was disabled, I re-enabled it today and it seems to be reading KS1_volts, so I am assuming its still connected and functioning.

This was done by Lidio originally; I know he does a safe tune always. From what I see in the borderline_spark table it is shooting for 17 degrees.

I plan on doing some driving tomorrow to see, think I will start to move the MBT spark table up from 11 degrees, just fishing for some feedback from fellow Marauder owners.

I have never heard any pinging at all on this setup so far.

Any input is appreciated.

I am hoping to have some open conversations on what I am playing with in the tune. I will be logging my wideband and a GM 3 bar map sensor for these activities.

Thanks ahead of time!:lol:

[Blown3.8]

Is the 17* in the upper right corner of the table? You need to log Load to see what load you are getting to to find the row and column the spark is being pulled from. Then you also have spark that can be retarded from high ACT and ECT and also from knock.

[Limited360]

Yes its upper right corner in the border line spark table @ 17*. They ACT and ECT values look reasonable. Just curious what others are seeing for delivered advance.

Main reason is I am not so trusting in the knock sensor.

[RacerX]

Stock motor with high cr pistons?

[Limited360]

Stock motor with high cr pistons?

Stock as stock can be internals.

I am not trying to push it, just looking for feedback. I know the setup I am running is common for the trilogy's.

Any info is appreciated.

Like I said before, my main issue is lack of trust in the knock sensor.

[Blackened300a]

Stock as stock can be internals.

I am not trying to push it, just looking for feedback. I know the setup I am running is common for the trilogy's.

Any info is appreciated.

Like I said before, my main issue is lack of trust in the knock sensor.

Safe is 12-13* of timing. 17 seems a little high. You will probably be looking at over 450 RWHP with that combo.

[Limited360]

I read the table wrong. 14.5* is borderline, I had a racing fuel tune pulled up that had 17*

Think I will walk it up from 11* to 13* by .5 increments, give the knock sensor some more authority just for safety during the process. I do need to look at my tip in spark as I swear I hear some light pinging at some speeds, mainly when the over drive is off @ 50mph range.

I am used to tuning with ETAS / INCA and having full access to the OEM's software. So much nicer. Not to mention instrumented cylinder heads with in cylinder pressure transducers. Makes doing a spark cal so much easier.

Also I am hitting ~1010 on MAF counts, max counts allowed is 1023.9. I could re-scale the air flow as table is 36 #/min at max voltage, what does stock Marauder MAF go to for max flow? ~56 #/min is what I found from searching.

I think I want to move up to the 90mm MAF, JLT intake and an upgraded throttle body soon anyways. Get the intake tract flowing better.

[Blown3.8]

You can't change the MAF counts by scaling. You have to do a MAF change or add a MAFiA.

The most lb/mn the eec will allow is 63.xx. That is when you would scale things to trick the computer of the actual flow so you can keep adding fuel. Once the MAF gets to the max counts there's not much more you can do wth that MAF.

[Limited360]

You can't change the MAF counts by scaling. You have to do a MAF change or add a MAFiA.

The most lb/mn the eec will allow is 63.xx. That is when you would scale things to trick the computer of the actual flow so you can keep adding fuel. Once the MAF gets to the max counts there's not much more you can do wth that MAF.


hmmm I was thinking wrong about what I meant to say. Understood. I want to upgrade to a 90mm to help increase flow on the intake side anyways. I also want the JLT setup vs. the K&N intake. I had the JLT on my previous Marauder and liked it a bit more.

[Blown3.8]

Yeah a 90mm MAF would be good. A lightning MAF gets you right to that 63 lb/min max without scaling. Then a BA2400 scales everything 53%

Yeah can't use a K&N with a 90mm MAF.

[Limited360]

Yeah a 90mm MAF would be good. A lightning MAF gets you right to that 63 lb/min max without scaling. Then a BA2400 scales everything 53%

Yeah can't use a K&N with a 90mm MAF.

I have one of the first revisions of the trilogy kit, I do not have an IAT sensor in the blower plate, that is a mod I am planning though for this winter, so a lightning MAF would work out.

K&N seems a bit small in diameter for the power the car is making.

[justbob]

19* with 2.8 upper/+4 lower and 20.5#'s boost.

Edit: didn't see you requested stock block info, this is a stock Termi block.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[Limited360]

19* with 2.8 upper/+4 lower and 20.5#'s boost.

Edit: didn't see you requested stock block info, this is a stock Termi block.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

All and any info is appreciated. I am running a stock block is all for now.

[babbage]

It's cool outside now which makes adding timing easier (no ping) Be careful next August!

Also is your cooling system tip-top? Rear head cooling mod? Better T-stat? Better Water pump?

[RacerX]

Here's some good fuel info from Ford Racing: https://www.fordracingparts.com/download/charts/Fuel_Injectors_and_Adaptors.pd f

[Limited360]

Here's some good fuel info from Ford Racing: https://www.fordracingparts.com/download/charts/Fuel_Injectors_and_Adaptors.pd f

Thanks. More info is always good. Added to my wiki I keep for tuning.

[Limited360]

It's cool outside now which makes adding timing easier (no ping) Be careful next August!

Also is your cooling system tip-top? Rear head cooling mod? Better T-stat? Better Water pump?

OEM pump working fine, will do cooling mod this winter when I pull blower off to relocate intake air temp sensor. Running a 180 tstat.

Anyone have opinion on usefulness of the knock sensor? Does the blower cause to much excess noise?

[Vortech347]

With the MAF being that close I'd get a BA2600. Do not do a MAFia. I have one on my Cobra and I can't stand that my MAF curve looks like a kids sledding hill with jumps in it. Infact the local shop that does everyones SCT stuff (that tune included) won't even sell MAFia's anymore because he's tired of the return calls for drivabilty issues. I'm ordering BA2600 next week actually.

[Limited360]

With the MAF being that close I'd get a BA2600. Do not do a MAFia. I have one on my Cobra and I can't stand that my MAF curve looks like a kids sledding hill with jumps in it. Infact the local shop that does everyones SCT stuff (that tune included) won't even sell MAFia's anymore because he's tired of the return calls for drivabilty issues. I'm ordering BA2600 next week actually.


Thanks for the feedback on the SCT over the Mafia... I have a SCT BA2600 on my wish list ;)

[Spectragod]

This was done by Lidio originally; I know he does a safe tune always. From what I see in the borderline_spark table it is shooting for 17 degrees.

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks ahead of time!:lol:

When I picked my car up from Lidio, in my spare parts were my knock sensors. I questioned it, he told me he takes them off every motor that he builds/tunes.

Told me that they are turned off in the tune

[LANDY]

Throw the knock sensors away and control the timing by the IAT2 when u get it done. I would start pulling timing around 135 degrees

[Limited360]

When I picked my car up from Lidio, in my spare parts were my knock sensors. I questioned it, he told me he takes them off every motor that he builds/tunes.

Told me that they are turned off in the tune


My knock sensor was disabled in the calibration I recieved from Lidio, I have turned it back on am slowly evaluating its effectiveness. Now that we actually got snow for the first time, I am thinking that process will go down to a snails pace... Not to mention back surgery cuts down on this fun!!!

[Limited360]

Throw the knock sensors away and control the timing by the IAT2 when u get it done. I would start pulling timing around 135 degrees


IAT2 is must regardless of knock sensor removal or not in my eyes. This is must have for me this winter!

I will keep the knock sensor enabled in the cal simply for the point of data logging, whether I use it or not to pull timing is another story.

Being that I do calibration for a living for OEM's... I am a data whore.... more info the better!!! Whether its useful or not can be decided later. Current project I am on records 2200 labels (channels) @ 1ms / 5ms / 10ms depending on the label. :lol: Thats just for looking at Diagnostics too, when doing base cal we up that to ~5000 labels all @ 1ms if plausible, typically blow the 1ms raster out in the tool and have to get some data slower.

[LANDY]

I will tell you right now, you are wasting your time evaluating the knock sensors on this car. Professionals been there done that, only to come to a conclusion that they are junk.

[Limited360]

I will tell you right now, you are wasting your time evaluating the knock sensors on this car. Professionals been there done that, only to come to a conclusion that they are junk.

By professionals you mean dyno jockeys? Or professional that understand the impacts of adding vibration and changing the resonant properties of the engine with different combustion parts (reworked heads, cams, pistons) and how this affects the knock sensor hardware (filters on signal in the ECU)

I understand it won't be as effective as a 100% OEM stock application however I would beg to differ that it is 100% useless and should be ignored all together.

However this feedback is exactly what I was looking for by starting this thread! Thank you!

[LANDY]

Rock on man! Show us all how is done!!!!!

[Limited360]

Rock on man! Show us all how is done!!!!!


Didn't mean to come off like an a$$... sorry. I do that far to often.. maybe I am an A$$... :eek:

Any and all information is appreciated! I just have heard far to many horror stories of dyno tuners over the years to take any of it to seriously! I know there is a massive amount of work that goes into the knock detection calibration along with the knock software filtering and hardware to support it. I have a hard time calling it crap is all. If it was crap they wouldn't spend the $$$ on the hardware and some silly engineer calibrating it all!

[lji372]

Didn't mean to come off like an a$$... sorry. I do that far to often.. maybe I am an A$$... :eek:


too late, you did, you are :laugh:

[JoeBoomz]

Knock sensors = gone on our marauders. Pulled way too much timing.

[Blackened300a]

Mine ended up in the box of spare parts I got back. The tuner turned it off in the tune as well.

[Marauderjack]

I was told that when the knock sensors hear (feel) detonation so has the rest of the motor and if bad enough things will break (oil pump) before the knock sensor's report has been responded too by the PCM!!:(

It is far better to prevent detonation before it happens...period!!:beer:

You are wasting time and effort crossing bridges others have crossed years ago and you run the risk of grenading your motor in the process!!:shake:

My $0.02 FWIW!!:cool:

[Limited360]

I was told that when the knock sensors hear (feel) detonation so has the rest of the motor and if bad enough things will break (oil pump) before the knock sensor's report has been responded too by the PCM!!:(

It is far better to prevent detonation before it happens...period!!:beer:

You are wasting time and effort crossing bridges others have crossed years ago and you run the risk of grenading your motor in the process!!:shake:

My $0.02 FWIW!!:cool:



Thanks for the feedback. I am not currently relying on the knock sensor to pull timing. Just simply looking at the signals and the actions it does take.

I agree that it may not be able to respond under certain conditions quick enough.

I guess with all the responses so far it makes me realize how different of an approach to vehicle calibration / tuning I take than almost everyone whom responded.

It's been great feedback and I really do appreciate it guys!!

Anyone have charts or data showing how the knock sensor behaves with an NA stock car versus a blown car? Basically pointing out how 'bad' the signal deteriorates with the engine modifications?

I'm a nerd I know!

[lji372]

Thanks for the feedback. I am not currently relying on the knock sensor to pull timing. Just simply looking at the signals and the actions it does take.

I agree that it may not be able to respond under certain conditions quick enough.

I guess with all the responses so far it makes me realize how different of an approach to vehicle calibration / tuning I take than almost everyone whom responded.

It's been great feedback and I really do appreciate it guys!!

Anyone have charts or data showing how the knock sensor behaves with an NA stock car versus a blown car? Basically pointing out how 'bad' the signal deteriorates with the engine modifications?

I'm a TURD I know!


fixed :lol:

carry on :beatnik:

[Limited360]

fixed :lol:

carry on :beatnik:


hmmmm suspect... :argue: