MM Hi-flow "X-Pipe" w/Cats

[Glenn]

I have talked to Dennis at DR, Nick at Kook's as well as Jeff at PP and still am looking for just a hi-flow "X-pipe" with hi-flow Cats w/o2 bungs with some HP gain that will hook-up to the stock E/Ms and stock mufflers. No, I do not want the Mach 1 E/Ms, Headers or even the beautiful Magaflows. Just a good flowing "X-pipe" and Cats with some HP gain. I have looked everywhere and nothing. Does anyone have a source? I have gone back and forth on this issue numerous times with myself and changed my mind several times. I just want a hi-flow "X-pipe" with Cats. Can anyone steer me in the right direction???

[CRUZTAKER]

I can't steer you Glen as I am biased to what I have. But I will say however, keeping the stock manifolds and only doing an x-pipe is a waste of money. The clog in the drain is further forward. It's like trying to pump more water through a 3/8" hose that has 1/2" hose spliced at the end...
The stack manifolds will damn near fit in the glove compartment, and the exit holes....dude, you would be hard pressed to get a box of visine thru them.

[BillyGman]

I agree w/Barry on that. I don't know if this is a money issue for you, but regardless, you should do it right, or not do it at all. I would be very skeptical of an X-pipe alone adding any more power. Even if it did, the power increase would NOT even be enough to cause a noticeable increase in acceleration. That I can say for sure.

[CRUZTAKER]

I was trying to be totally cool and respectfull to Glenn, just wasn't sure how to get the point across....after all, it is HIS money.

I still suggest though, if you're gonna do it, DO IT ALL BABY...the results are quite pleasing. The only tough choice is which setup. Manifolds or headers?
I'm old school...headers!:coolman:

[Glenn]

I have read hundreds of emails on this Net concerning every aspect of the MM E/S and talked to several known performance dealers and numerous MM owners and seen many of their dyno results. The stock MM e/ms are basically the same as the Mach 1 e/ms. I have had a Ford Master Mechanic personally examine them. I do not want headers. They are great for hi-rev HP increases, but not my style of driving. I will do a before and after dyno test on the X-Pipe and hi-flow Cats if I can find one. I believe there is more HP hidden in the X-pipe even with stock E/Ms and mufflers. I am willing to spend the money to test my theory if I can find a good X-pipe. I know Mac will disagree, but since I cann't even find a good X-pipe I guess we will never know. I have read and heard all of the claims and "known-facts". I am not convinced by the dyno readings I have seen. It is just like everyone stating that the chip and tuner MM computer changes are exactly the same as a dyno tune flash - it just isn't so. Sorry, no flames here. I will only go on proved dyno HP results and they do not support the other side.

Glenn

[Cobra25]

I have talked to Dennis at DR, Nick at Kook's as well as Jeff at PP and still am looking for just a hi-flow "X-pipe" with hi-flow Cats w/o2 bungs with some HP gain that will hook-up to the stock E/Ms and stock mufflers. No, I do not want the Mach 1 E/Ms, Headers or even the beautiful Magaflows. Just a good flowing "X-pipe" and Cats with some HP gain. I have looked everywhere and nothing. Does anyone have a source? I have gone back and forth on this issue numerous times with myself and changed my mind several times. I just want a hi-flow "X-pipe" with Cats. Can anyone steer me in the right direction??? Glenn, I've put DR.'s exhaust system on my car and it made a nice difference. I have other friends with Marauder's and they did the same,one of the members of our Club is putting the Kook's system on soon. Both are very good. I understand what your looking too do and your best bet is find a custom Exhaust shop and see if they can make it for you. Most exhaust shop's won't do it because it's tampering with the cat's and that is a Federal Crime .

[Glenn]

Cobra25:

Yes, your right an Exhaust Shop will not do it and no known performance dealer will provide one, only a complete E/S. Even though it is a minor change from the E/S being offered from the three known MM mods vendors.

Glenn

[BillyGman]

Glenn, I'm not trying to aggrivate you in any way my friend. Like Barry stated, it IS your $$, and I respect that. I'm not at all sure about what you meant by your last post. I don't know if you're questioning the exhaust upgrades that are available to us from the vendors on this board, or if you were claiming a worthwhile power increase from just the addition of an X-pipe alone.

All I can tell you is that what I was concerned about before deciding to go w/the Kooks headers and complete exhaust package was sacrificing low-end power for high RPM power. I politely grilled Nick from Kooks over the telephone w/questions concerning that as well as Logan via PM. And both of them assured me that I would see both a low end, as well as a high RPM power increase from the Kooks headers/exhaust package. And I have to tell you that I definately did.

After installing the headers and exhaust package, I even noticed that my car left more rubber from a dead punch than it did before. And as far as Dyno numbers that might indicate a power gain from an X-pipe alone, I don't dispute that. but what I would dispute is how much HP are you talking? A 5 or 10 HP gain will not even be felt on the street. So that's what I meant in my previous post.

Take it for what it's worth, but I've performed a number of mods myself to this heavy car, and have went to 2 different race tracks during difffernt stages of those mods to test things out. And that's my 2 cents on this issue. I hope it helps you.

[FordNut]

I put on the x-pipe, high flow mufflers, and 2-1/2" system with the stock cats and manifolds. Picked up a whole 4 hp. Maybe if I had changed the cats too it would have made more difference. When I added the Kooks and high flow cats, wow what a difference. The comments about high rpm improvements are totally off base. Everybody that has upgraded has picked up both low and high rpm gains. I believed this misconception too until I tried it.

[FordNut]

Cobra25:

Yes, your right an Exhaust Shop will not do it and no known performance dealer will provide one, only a complete E/S. Even though it is a minor change from the E/S being offered from the three known MM mods vendors.

Glenn

Not true. I had a custom system put in at a top notch shop. As long as you don't remove the cats they will put in whatever you want.

[cyclone03]

Didn't Logan do a complete system on his first MM?

I thought of doing the same as your thinking,replace the stock cats,h-pipe and connecting pipes to the stock mufflers.Even enlarging the input to the stock mufflers.
The problem?
Nobody in the local muffler shop business can/will do it!
There are universal x-pipes out there but to make a difference in power the down tubes frome the manifolds must be changed.Unless you can do it yourself I think Dennis' set up is very atractive $$wise(BTW see my sig) and power wise.

I agree with you power is hidding in the stock exhaust system,but WHO can do the work with good bends?Welds?Qaulity?Low cost?


If you have a GOOD exhaust guy lined up go for it,but the local muffler shop CANT do the bends you need for good power.

[woaface]

Oh *****! I thought manifolds and headers were two different words for the same thing:bigcry:

[mad man]

Oh *****! I thought manifolds and headers were two different words for the same thing:bigcry:Thay do the same thing .Just headers give way more H.P. :eek:

[FordNut]

Didn't Logan do a complete system on his first MM?
I believe the system was changed from the cats back, even the foot long sections from the cats to the flanges (which I didn't change when the x-pipe was installed). But I don't think he did before & after dyno tests.


If you have a GOOD exhaust guy lined up go for it,but the local muffler shop CANT do the bends you need for good power.
Maybe you can get yourself a Bassani x-pipe with integral high flow cats and have it adapted. I believe the flanges and short sections of pipe from manifold to cat will need to be changed and some extension pipes added between the cats and the x-pipe. Then the sections will have to be made to connect from the x-pipe's ball flanges to the mufflers. That is basically what Dennis' system is, except instead of changing flanges he changes manifolds and it's a different brand.

[jspradii]

Not true. I had a custom system put in at a top notch shop. As long as you don't remove the cats they will put in whatever you want.
I also had a custom system with x-pipes, put in to compement my Kooks long tubes. It is outstanding. Additionally, my shop made the cats a bolt in, which can be removed so that straight pipes can be installed for off road use. The shop is known as the best in our area, and they didn't have a problem doing it that way.:banana:

[junehhan]

Out of curiosity, for you guys who installed either the Kooks headers, or the Mach 1 E/M's along with the x-pipe, what kind of difference did the setup make to the exhaust note?

[jspradii]

Somewhat louder, more aggressive. It's not a stealth modification, that's for sure.

[junehhan]

I'm still pondering on the exhaust setup I want, but I am leaning more towards the Kooks setup. I think the factory exhaust is just too quiet and mellow, and am definately looking for something a bit more aggressive.

[BillyGman]

If you want the sound of V8 power, you'll love the Kooks headers along w/their complete exhaust package (including the 18" Magnaflow mufflers). I get compliments from guys of all ages about how great it sounds. It also gave me a .55 sec reduction in my ET's at the track. Even Marty told me that out of all the Marauders that he heard at Ennis last year, none sounded better than my car did when him and I raced at the track in NJ.

[martyo]

Even Marty told me that out of all the Marauders that he heard at Ennis last year, none sounded better than my car did when him and I raced at the track in NJ.
Billy: If you are going to keep using my endorsement, I am going to want royalties!

[SergntMac]

No flames, Glenn, just some thoughts from the other side of the discussion.

I don't understand your mention of "Mach I" manifolds. This is the first time I've heard them called that. If you compared the MM manifolds to a Mach I manifolds, you may be correct to say they are the same. However, Dennis sold me '03 Cobra manifolds, and there is a remarkable difference anyone can see when the two are compared, enough to say that a side by side isn't needed.

I did perform before and after dynos when installing the Cobra kit Dennis sold me. Initially, 28 RWHP and 18 RWTQ, but with an incorrect extension pipe in place. Once I changed that out, and the power came up to 30 RWHP and 20 RWTQ from Dennis' exhaust system, over the OEM. For the money involved, surely this kit is worth the investment.

Okay...You want to change only to high flow cats, and add an X pipe. This will provide some minor changes in power, but most likely a trade of low end torque for high end HP. What would be the benefit here? The MM needs as much low end torque as it can get, which is why any exhaust system mods took so long to get developed in the first place. Reaching waaaayy back in to history, Hooker and Kook's both made long tube headers for the MM, but they were expensive. Moreover, the state of other mods had not progressed, and the performance gains on headers alone were minimal for the cost. It all looks a bit different today, thanks to tuning, gears, superchargers and so on. But the goal is to improve low end torque, not give it up.

Glenn...May I suggest you consider buying ONLY Dennis' one piece exhaust pipe? It should fit the OEM manifolds and mufflers in their stock locations. It's 2.5" OD, which is critical, it has Bassani high flow cats and X pipe built in, and it necks down to the OEM 2" OD muffler. This is about as close as you can get to achieving your goal, unless you just shop around on the 'net and piece it together yourself in 2" OD.

BTW, around here any muffler shop will change out cats for cats, that's not illegal. Installing an "off the road pipe" that replaces the cats, well, that may be a bit more difficult. You may have to do this yourself.

Keep us posted on your progress?

[BillyGman]

Billy: If you are going to keep using my endorsement, I am going to want royalties!

oh sure, that's probably how you were able to get that nice new Durango. You just give people compliments on their cars, and then demand royalties from them as soon as they quote you. Very shrewd Martin...........what's next? A bigger boat???

[martyo]

what's next? A bigger boat???
Well, I was going to save enough to get you that GT you have had yoru eye on, but a bigger boat always sounds good too me!

[BillyGman]

OOOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!!! a rough rabbit punch to the left solarplex...........that hurt uncle Marty. You must be a vicious opponent in the courtroom.......

I guess it's unfortunate for me that you and Todd know where my Achiles heel is..... :(

[teamrope]

I guess it's unfortunate for me that you and Todd know where my Achiles heel is..... :(

That must be a GT thing :D

[BillyGman]

yep............

[cyclone03]

Meanwhile back to the subject at hand........

I didn't know DR had a bolt in x pipe for the stock manifolds if so $$ wise I don't think you could piece this set up together locally for much less.
Maybe DR has dyno numbers over the stock set up (dah, I'm SURE he does).

But I bet the complete system he sells is still GREAT for the $$.

No I'm not taking my Kooks off,I LOVE the RIP at 4000rpm and up!

OK MartyO and BillyG back to the cat fight :-)
And Marty I'm sure you NEED a bigger boat more than BG and I need a new GT!

[FordNut]

I didn't know DR had a bolt in x pipe for the stock manifolds if so $$ wise I don't think you could piece this set up together locally for much less.
I don't think he does either, but you could get his pipe and change the flanges to fit the stock manifolds. That would be the way to prove the stock vs cobra manifold issue, as we already have dyno numbers for power increase by adding the whole DR system. Go ahead, Glenn, just do it!

And that's right about piecing together a system locally, overall it cost me about $500 more than just buying the system ready to bolt in. Of course I had to have mandrel bent stainless pipe, stainless hangers, etc, etc. At the time the Kook's system wasn't stainless but now that I've spent all this extra cash, they changed over to stainless too. Shoulda/coulda waited, but...

[Glenn]

I appreciate the comments. Thanks for all your input. In reality, it still boils down to either the DR or Kook's E/S. I do not want to piece together an X-pipe and Cats at an exhaust shop. I just wanted a professionally done X-pipe w/cats. I guess I wanted my cake and eat it too. Not goin to happen. It's back to the original DR or Kook's set-up. I will just rest on it awhile.

I have parked my MM for the time being. I am putting it under cover. Hard to pay premium gas at over $1.80 per gallon while driving over 100 miles a day. I was getting to be a real Bully anyway. I've been tempting the LEO too much. Need to adjust to common driving for awhile. Back to my old faithful Ranger with 6 cylinder, 5 speed and 25 mpg at 150,000 miles. May be a good time to pull those rear rims off and have them widened and put some Nitto 295s on them. At least my MM would look good for the FFW in April.

Glenn

[SergntMac]

Glenn...You're welcome to call me anytime at 312.401.1396, where we can chat without the comedy.

[BillyGman]

And Marty I'm sure you NEED a bigger boat more than BG and I need a new GT!

hey, speak for yourself, cuz I neeeeeeeddddd that GT real bad!!!!!!! :banana2: :banana2: :banana2:

...hey Glenn, you received a lot of different opinions, and that's great since that's what you've asked for. But it all boils down to what YOU want, and what YOUR priorities AND expectations are. No matter what you do w/your exhaust, you're not gonna get such a drastic performance increase that the car is going to feel like an entirely different car than the one you drove out of the dealer parking lot the day you bought it.

But you can get a somewhat noticeable difference in power and acceleration IF you change out the majority of the exhaust(especially those four stock CATS, and those restrictive stock exhaust manifolds). Both of the complete exhaust systems that are offered for our cars by the vendors here on this board are relatively inexpensive for the HP gain that they offer.

Some guys balk at the prices of either system, but horsepower costs money. That's all there is to it. The faster you want to go, the more $$ it's gonna cost you. It's as simple as that. Don't expect a night and day change in the way your car moves from a mod that simply costs a few hundred dollars. It just aint gonna happen.

Probably the closest thing to really cheap HP that will make a very noticeable difference is a Nitrous Oxide system, and it looks to me that even the cheaper set-ups run around $500 and up. And that isn't even taking into account the cost and inconvenience of having to fill that Nitrous bottle up once or twice a week depending on how much you want to get into the gas pedal.

HP costs $$.........how much you have to spend will determine how fast you will go. But as much as we all hate to have to drop a big coin on our cars, and how much doing so can strain the wallet, and drain the bank account, in the longrun we all learn sooner or later that half stepping in an effort to save money ends up wasting time and money in the longrun since the half-step mods just don't yield any HP gains that will cause a noticeable difference in the way your car accelerates. Especially a very heavy car like the Marauder.