Marauder brakes - the gift that keeps on giving

[lifespeed]

I've owned the car for 6 years now, and have had the brakes off no less than 8 times to address pulsing and runout in the rotors. Most of the time I have not changed the pads as they weren't worn, instead machining the rotors flat.

It started with the OEM parts at 50K miles (I bought the car at 30K) with pulsing that got noticeable enough I decided it was time for a brake job. I then switched to Command Automotive rotors and Hawk HPS pads. These would go about 8 - 10K miles each time before they got uneven enough I had to machine the rotors. Did this three times and decided I was tired of frequent brake maintenance and inadequate stopping power, so I upgraded to the TCE/Wilwood brakes on all four.

The TCE setup, although much more powerful, actually required more maintenance. I had the BP10 pad compound. They would start shuddering after 3 - 4K miles. I machined a set of rotors 3 times in 12K miles each time removing 0.004" to 0.010", then got a new set of TCE rotors. Put them on with the same set of BP10 pads and they started pulsing within 50 miles.

OK, this is ridiculous! I called Todd at TCE again, and he told me (again) that this issue is almost always caused by pad material transferring to the rotor. So why is this happening?

Incorrect bedding procedure? Maybe. I did bed them some of the numerous times I machined the rotors, but not every time. I was getting suspicious the bedding procedure and accompanying heat was responsible for my problems.

Driving the brakes hard, getting them hot, then sitting at a stoplight with the pads clamping hot rotors? Probably not, I've long been aware of this possibility. And street use rarely gets these rotors that hot.

The pad compound is problematic for the intended use? Maybe. Pads used outside their design temperature range are supposed to be one way to get pad transfer. I have always assumed this meant hotter than designed, and the BP-10 pad appears to fall off at about 800F - 900F. I don't know how hot my brakes get, but I don't experience fade or burning pad smell.

Trying to address the possibility of pad compound or bedding issue, I got a set of Porterfield R4S pads. I have had good results with this compound in the past n the lighter '97 Panther with '98 twin-piston Ford brakes. I do wonder which direction is better going to address the issue; lower-temperature street pads, or more-aggressive high temp track pads that don't work so well cold.

I cleaned the freshly-machined rotors, cleaned the pistons before compressing them into the calipers, and meticulously bedded the pads. Starting out gently and not letting the brakes get too hot, I allowed time for cooling between progressively harder stops and checked the rotors to make sure the smeared pad material on the freshly-turned rotors did not appear.

I hope I can get this resolved. I'm not going to keep working on the brakes every few months! :mad2:

[Mr. Man]

If you're getting uneven wear on the pads to the point of having to turn rotors every couple of thousand miles I wonder if the caliper mounting point is bent or misaligned somehow. Are your problems with both front and rear or just one or the other?

One other thing I do when replacing rotors is spray the heck out of them with brake cleaner, front and back and I use latex gloves when I install everything. Might not do much but I makes me feel better knowing the rotors are starting their life w/o grease on them.

I too hate the Hawk pads as I put them on the SB after the OEMs died at 100K+ miles. Never had to turn the rotors either but they were worn down. I replaced them with FrozenRotors cryogentic slotted rotors but the Hawk pads I got leave me wishing I had something else. I'm either going back to the Motorcraft OEM or I may try a Raybestos pad. Been interested in the EBC pads but I've heard conflicting stories on them. Some say great, others poor.

[lifespeed]

If you're getting uneven wear on the pads to the point of having to turn rotors every couple of thousand miles I wonder if the caliper mounting point is bent or misaligned somehow. Are your problems with both front and rear or just one or the other?

No particular problem wheel, even stock-style (although not truly stock, Hawk HPS and Command Auto) were problematic. Maybe the problem is the 4200 lb car ;)

[Todd TCE]

The best I've been able to offer is pad transfer as been noted. If it's a fixed issue I'm of the belief that you'd have issues immediately after the 'cutting' of the disc. From our conversations it appears things are fine for a while then the problems come back again.

A good read from Stoptech is probably the best I've ever found on this topic.

DTV- Disc Thickness Variation (http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths)

The issue becomes far, far more prevalent on cars with automatic transmissions. Of the kits I've sold for 20yrs now the most common complaints come nearly to 100% of those with AX: Marauder, Lightning, Impala....others it's almost unheard of when the car is a manual.

[lifespeed]

I'm either going back to the Motorcraft OEM or I may try a Raybestos pad. Been interested in the EBC pads but I've heard conflicting stories on them. Some say great, others poor.

I would give Motorcraft a try. Pretty sure the stock pads are a decent semi-metallic.

[RF Overlord]

FWIW, I've had the Wilwood 6-piston setup from TCE on the front of The Blackbird for the last 5 years and have no issue whatsoever. I don't drive it much, but it's been on the road course at New Hampshire Motor Speedway twice, in addition to normal street driving.

As far as the pads, I don't even know what kind they are...they're whatever Todd supplied at the time.

[lifespeed]

FWIW, I've had the Wilwood 6-piston setup from TCE on the front of The Blackbird for the last 5 years and have no issue whatsoever. I don't drive it much, but it's been on the road course at New Hampshire Motor Speedway twice, in addition to normal street driving.

As far as the pads, I don't even know what kind they are...they're whatever Todd supplied at the time.

Yeah, I know many don't have these problems. I think most folks have slotted rotors and BP20 pads, as opposed to my plain rotors and BP10 (now R4S). Not sure how much difference that makes.

The guy at Porterfield seemed to think slotted rotors might help with this issue, although I have no idea if he is correct. Too late to try slots now without springing for another $700 worth of rotors.

To eliminate one more variable, I have temporarily banished my wife from driving the Marauder. Not that she wasn't aware that clamping hot rotors at a stoplight was a no-no. But I have to try and reduce the number of variables in this experiment/headache.

[lifespeed]

Took the car out today for a second and final brake abuse session. Started out with moderate braking and a little heat, with cooling periods. Then took it up to 85 mph and hit the brakes near anti-lock thresholds. Did this twice waiting ten minutes in between. The second time as the speed dropped to 20 miles an hour I felt just a hint of brake fade and brake smell. Not much.

I looked at the rotors when I got home. They are smooth, but I can now see a grey coloration from a thin layer of pad material transferred to the rotor. It is a pretty even layer, the brakes still feel good and smooth.

Just going to drive normally now. We'll see how it goes.

[tbone]

Have you tried ceramic pads?

[lifespeed]

Have you tried ceramic pads?

Used Hawk HPS on stock-style rotors. They only went about 8K miles between rotor resurfacing.

[Mr. Man]

FWIW, I've had the Wilwood 6-piston setup from TCE on the front of The Blackbird for the last 5 years and have no issue whatsoever. I don't drive it much, but it's been on the road course at New Hampshire Motor Speedway twice, in addition to normal street driving.

As far as the pads, I don't even know what kind they are...they're whatever Todd supplied at the time.
I looked at your pads last year Baub they said Kenworth :D

[Spectragod]

From Baer's website.....

http://www.baer.com/tech-center/season-your-rotors

http://www.baer.com/tech-center/how-to-bed-your-pads

Personally, I would not be re-using old pads on new rotors or freshly cut rotors....

[Spectragod]

After re-reading your post, I'm unsure if your pads were new or used, either way, I have experienced what you have, in my case, it was pad material that transferred to the rotor, all it took for removal was a couple of good stops and letting the brakes cool down.

Also, there is no mention of who installed your brakes, being that these are non floating calipers, getting the spacing between either side of the caliper and rotor is crucial to the operation of the brakes. The rear is even harder with "C" clips holding the axles in place.

All that being said, after I purchased these, I did take notice that these are designed for a performance car as opposed to a daily driven car, IMO, not to say that you cannot use them on a DD, but it would be similar to making your F40 a DD..... just sayin"

[lifespeed]

I have about 400 miles on the Wilwoods with resurfaced rotors and Porterfield R4S pads. Did some hard driving and braking tonight to confirm some tweaks to the rear shocks. The rotors are fully polished now and look very even. I guess I'll have to go thousands of miles to confirm they'll be OK this time, but they feel the smoothest they have been for a long time.

And the dreaded Porterfield squeak is there. Light pressure just as the pads touch the rotor will sometimes emit a horrific screech. Oh well, if the rotors just stay smooth for a couple years I can live with the occasional squeak.

[lifespeed]

Also, there is no mention of who installed your brakes, being that these are non floating calipers, getting the spacing between either side of the caliper and rotor is crucial to the operation of the brakes. The rear is even harder with "C" clips holding the axles in place.

I had a rear end shop install the rears when I had my axle rebuilt. They were aware of the end play issue and took care of it. I did have to adjust the shims to center the calipers after the hired guns did their work. Fronts were the same, hired the suspension rebuilt and had to fix the brake install.

A word of advice to potential TCE customers: do the install yourself, or at least check their work afterwards.

As to the race car brake comment, I say they're only unsuitable for the street if they don't have a street pad compound. Wilwoods are used on many street cars.

[lifespeed]

1000 miles on the Porterfield R4S pads and new TCE rotors. It is looking promising. I was getting rotor pulsation pretty quickly before, so another 1K - 2K miles and I might be able to put this problem behind me. It does appear these pads are slightly more aggressive than the Wilwood BP10. I can see them wearing into the rotors slightly, perhaps more than the BP10 compound did. Cold stops require some pedal pressure. But they also don't seem to do the evil pad transfer, which is huge.

It may be these heavy cars need a somewhat aggressive compound even on the street to ward off the occasional situation where pad transfer could occur from slightly overheating a street pad. Or the Wilwood BP10 compound is terrible. Or terrible on this car. Or :confused:

I think most TCE customers received the harder BP20 pads anyway, so there may be few people to compare this experience with.

[J-MAN]

Having a similar problem. Do you have the part number for the Porterfield pads?

Thanks!

[lifespeed]

For which calipers?

[J-MAN]

For which calipers?

TCE Wilwood kit, front and rear.

BSL6N-F
NMDP-R

[lifespeed]

TCE Wilwood kit, front and rear.

BSL6N-F
NMDP-R

BSL6N = 7416
NMDP = 7816

Be warned the Porterfield R4S do squeal at low speeds with light pedal pressure. But they seem not to suffer from the (IMO) more severe problem of pad transfer causing the brakes to pulse.

Careful bedding of the pads, with long cooling periods between heating, seems to be important as well.

Which pads do you have now? BP10 are numbered 8xxx and BP20 are numbered 9xxx. Here is a link to some Wilwood pad compounds (http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakePadsApp.aspx). The temperature range on the BP10 does seem like it could be inadequate for a 4200 lb car.

[J-MAN]

Thank You!

[mrjones]

I didn't see this anywhere above, and I think it's worth a mention. When the wheels are put back on the car, the lug nuts should be tightened with a torque wrench and not just run on with an impact wrench. Putting the wheels on improperly with a torque wrench can cause the rotors to warp as well.

I do think it's more likely that there is something dragging in the brakes causing excessive heat buildup and warping the rotors. Have you ever used a ray gun to check the temp of the rotors after a drive? If you've got a caliper dragging, it will show up as a much hotter temp than the other rotors.

[lifespeed]

I didn't see this anywhere above, and I think it's worth a mention. When the wheels are put back on the car, the lug nuts should be tightened with a torque wrench and not just run on with an impact wrench. Putting the wheels on improperly with a torque wrench can cause the rotors to warp as well.

I do think it's more likely that there is something dragging in the brakes causing excessive heat buildup and warping the rotors. Have you ever used a ray gun to check the temp of the rotors after a drive? If you've got a caliper dragging, it will show up as a much hotter temp than the other rotors.

Yes, torquing is important and I have been doing this. The prevailing opinion is that rotors do not warp. The problem is caused by hot pad material transferring to the rotor and leaving a high spot. You can actually see a (usually gray) appearance where this happens.

Fixing the symptom is the same regardless - resurface the rotors. But fixing the CAUSE may involve using a different, possibly more aggressive or higher temperature pad.

I do not have a sticking caliper problem, nor did the pulsing rotor problem ever confine itself to one "problem" wheel. The problem so far appears to be resolved with different pads. I would not recommend Wilwood BP10 pads on our cars.

[fastblackmerc]

Yes, torquing is important and I have been doing this. The prevailing opinion is that rotors do not warp. The problem is caused by hot pad material transferring to the rotor and leaving a high spot. You can actually see a (usually gray) appearance where this happens.

Fixing the symptom is the same regardless - resurface the rotors. But fixing the CAUSE may involve using a different, possibly more aggressive or higher temperature pad.

I do not have a sticking caliper problem, nor did the pulsing rotor problem ever confine itself to one "problem" wheel. The problem so far appears to be resolved with different pads. I would not recommend Wilwood BP10 pads on our cars.

I've been using the BP10 pads ever since I installed the TCE kit (4 or 5 years ago). I've never had any problems other than they cause a moderate amount of dust.

[lifespeed]

I've been using the BP10 pads ever since I installed the TCE kit (4 or 5 years ago). I've never had any problems other than they cause a moderate amount of dust.

According to Todd he shipped mostly BP20 with the Marauder kits. Have you confirmed the part number on the back of the pads?

I guess everybody has different experiences. Mine were persistent through the full life of one set of rotors and the pads tried to ruin rotor set #2. Then I changed to a different pad compound and (so far) the problem seems to have disappeared.

All I did was change the pads and resurface the rotors. The results speak for themselves.

[fastblackmerc]

According to Todd he shipped mostly BP20 with the Marauder kits. Have you confirmed the part number on the back of the pads?

I guess everybody has different experiences. Mine were persistent through the full life of one set of rotors and the pads tried to ruin rotor set #2. Then I changed to a different pad compound and (so far) the problem seems to have disappeared.

All I did was change the pads and resurface the rotors. The results speak for themselves.

Todd actually sent a set of each. BP20 pads are waiting to be installed when needed.