URGENT: Harmonic damper threads stripped

[BlueFusion]

I installed Steeda Underdrives on Tuesday. I followed the instructions with the exception of holding the torque converter by a bolt, since my factory TC lacks one. I resorted to using an impact wrench, but even that did not get the pulley on all the way (had another 1/16" to be in proper position).

I pulled the pulley back of today and low and behold, the crank bolt is in awful condition (this was a brand new one).

I do not know what to do now. I can't risk damaging these threads any more, yet I can't get it to a shop either. It's stuck in my garage.

Can anybody offer solid advice on what to do next??? Run a tap down the snout? If a tap is my best option, what size do I need?

I'm getting yet another new bolt from the dealer today but I'm not doing anything with it until I get the crank situation resolved.

Here are pictures:
http://richgannon.net/crank/

P.S. if anybody is in the North Royalton, OH area, I'll pay for your help and expertise!

[fastblackmerc]

I installed Steeda Underdrives on Tuesday. I followed the instructions with the exception of holding the torque converter by a bolt, since my factory TC lacks one. I resorted to using an impact wrench, but even that did not get the pulley on all the way (had another 1/16" to be in proper position).

I pulled the pulley back of today and low and behold, the crank bolt is in awful condition (this was a brand new one).

I do not know what to do now. I can't risk damaging these threads any more, yet I can't get it to a shop either. It's stuck in my garage.

Can anybody offer solid advice on what to do next??? Run a tap down the snout? If a tap is my best option, what size do I need?

I'm getting yet another new bolt from the dealer today but I'm not doing anything with it until I get the crank situation resolved.

Here are pictures:
http://richgannon.net/crank/

P.S. if anybody is in the North Royalton, OH area, I'll pay for your help and expertise!

Did you use the installation bolt that came with the Steeda pulleys?

[Joe Walsh]

Did you use the installation bolt that came with the Steeda pulleys?

Yep....
STEEDA supplies a different length (shorter) crank bolt.
They specifically instruct you to start installing the pulley with the longer OEM bolt, then remove the longer OEM bolt and then finish installing the pulley with the shorter STEEDA supplied bolt.
Your longer OEM bolt is bottoming out in the crank snout.
I'd clean up the threads by 'chasing' them with a tap, then clean the crank threads out with compressed air and then install the shorter Steeda bolt.

CORRECTION:
The 'install' bolt supplied by STEEDA is LONGER and the OEM bolt is SHORTER.

My memory sucks...I did this install about 8-1/2 years ago!

[BlueFusion]

The Steeda bolt is the longer bolt. The OEM bolt is shorter. I used the Steeda bolt to start the installation and then switched to the OEM bolt once it was able to reach the threads.

Does anybody know what size tap to buy?

[Joe Walsh]

After looking at the pictures of your crank snout's threads....it does not look good.
After you chase/clean up the threads with the tap, hand install the new, shorter, bolt and see how much wiggle there is.
If the bolt feels really loose, the crank snout's threads may be too far gone to salvage....especially at the torque required for that bolt.
You may be 'F'd and have to drill and tap the crank snout for a larger size bolt.

That opens up a whole new can of worms.

[Joe Walsh]

M12 x 1.5 according to Jegs/ARP

http://www.jegs.com/i/ARP/070/156-2501/10002/-1?parentProductId=

They show a 1.8" underhead length.
How does that compare to your two different bolts?

.

[BlueFusion]

What is "underhead length?"

[BlueFusion]

Will this be a good tap kit? It has an M12x1.5.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piece-titanium-nitride-coated-alloy-steel-metric-tap-die-set-60676.html

[Joe Walsh]

The length of the bolt measured from under the head to the tip of the bolt....basically the 'reach' of the bolt
versus overall length which includes the additional length/thickness of the bolt's head.

[BlueFusion]

Both bolts are exactly the same at just over 1.8"

[Joe Walsh]

Will this be a good tap kit? It has an M12x1.5.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piece-titanium-nitride-coated-alloy-steel-metric-tap-die-set-60676.html

I always equate Horrible Fright Tools as 'One and Done' use.
That's pretty much what you are trying to accomplish here.
You could probably pick up just that tap size for a bunch less money at a local hardware store.

[Joe Walsh]

Both bolts are exactly the same at just over 1.8"

Something isn't right....one should be shorter than the other.

http://www.steeda.com/store/uploads/701-0004-1.pdf

Steeda's install bolt should be 60mm length = 2.36" = roughly 2-3/8"

[martyo]

Will this be a good tap kit? It has an M12x1.5.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piece-titanium-nitride-coated-alloy-steel-metric-tap-die-set-60676.html

You are trying to save your crank (and teh disassembly of your motor and everythinbg that that entails if you don't). This is no place to cut corners.

Go to Fastenal or Grainger and ask the clerk for assistance is selecting a better quality tap.

[BlueFusion]

According to the Fastenal website, no stores near me have any M12x1.5 taps. :(

[a_d_a_m]

Even then...don't expect a miracle.

Good luck, Rich. I think you're probably looking at some surgery at the least.

[martyo]

According to the Fastenal website, no stores near me have any M12x1.5 taps. :(

Try Grainger.

[a_d_a_m]

If either of those fail, Lake Tool (http://www.laketool.net) in Painesville will almost definitely have what you need.

[Joe Walsh]

I would try the M12 x 1.50 tap first and see how the threads look and how tight the OEM bolt feels after the clean-up.
If the threads are too wasted, you can step up to a 1/2" S.A.E or even a 14mm bolt size to save the crank.

http://www.jegs.com/i/ARP/070/251-2501/10002/-1?parentProductId=

14mm x 1.5 and UHL is 1.735"...which is less than 2mm shorter than the OEM bolt, and you can get one at your local FORD dealership.

[a_d_a_m]

I'm reading various threads online, many of which are GM-specific but I digress...

Some folks are expressing that using a tap to clean the threads may work. Those people also seem to indicate that a TimeSert may be the next best solution. I really do not know, but I feel for ya, man.

I'd be at a dead-end with this too, so although I'm close, I have no real expertise that would warrant me driving to N-Roy.

[RubberCtyRauder]

Macho Tool Supply on clark in cleveland or MSC industrial on dutton in twinsburg will have good. Metric taps. Both are google search able. Tap that is good will cost $20-40. I checked my stock here:flamer: at work, none that size as i go past 71 and 82 to and from work

[Joe Walsh]

Stupid question....but you were using the heavy OEM washer under the OEM bolt as you did the final install?

[tbone]

I used a new OEM bolt with no issues.

[a_d_a_m]

Stupid question....but you were using the heavy OEM washer under the OEM bolt as you did the final install? Not a stupid question at all...especially as I re-examine the pictures. :confused:

[RubberCtyRauder]

As i mentioned on the same post on cvn. It looks like the threads bottomed out into the unformed threads of the hole.like the bolt went too deep.i've seen it plenty of times in my work. Too long of bolt.or forgot washer or not tapped deep enough

[lifespeed]

The use of a bolt to install a harmonic balancer is WRONG. Yeah, I know many of you have got away with it, but that doesn't make it right. Using an impact wrench is double wrong. But you didn't post this before the stripping, so . . .

Chase it with a tap, thread the bolt in and see how bad it is. Drill, tap and helicoil to replace the damage if needed.

And use the proper harmonic balancer installation tool (http://www.cal-vantools.com/p-206-long-reach-harmonic-balancer-pulley-installer.aspx) to put it on!!

[71cyclone]

You are trying to save your crank (and teh disassembly of your motor and everythinbg that that entails if you don't). This is no place to cut corners.

Go to Fastenal or Grainger and ask the clerk for assistance is selecting a better quality tap. Ditto /Granger carries Mac tools and Proto[div of mac ] I made my living with Snap on and mac tools and now retired-- ,In The long run good tools are safer and last longer and [ NO COMEBACKS} /// :) Happy Maraudering !!

[BlueFusion]

Stupid question....but you were using the heavy OEM washer under the OEM bolt as you did the final install?

Not a stupid question. Yes I did use the factory washer on both the Steeda install bolt and then the new OEM bolt.

After an entire day of panicking in a cold sweat, shaking in frustration, and nearly in tears over the fact that this $200 mod may have cost me an engine, I think things have been sufficiently bandaided.

I say bandaided, because for as long as I own this car with this engine, I will never have full faith in the crank threads. I will never touch the damper on this thing, unless it goes to a shop that is prepared to helicoil it.

I was able to get to Sears and picked up a 37 piece tap set. I verified the M12x1.5 tap is the one I need compared to the factory bolts and it fit right into the crank.

I give it a few turns by hand to ensure that it engaged the threads properly. It went in trouble free. It snagged a few times towards the end, but I never had to use much force.

While I know the threads are damaged, I think most of it was galling that had to be removed.

I got as much of the grit and metal shavings out as possible and threaded a new damage-free OEM bolt in. With the washer on, it went all the way with no force required and it did not wiggle.

I got the damper installed again and it seems to have been seated properly this time.

I guess now all I can do is watch for wobble and backing out. I really really really hope this was my once in a lifetime mulligan and nothing bad ever comes from this again.

By the way, I called two local shops and the local Ford service department. All three of them said I'm SOL - they don't have the tools to do anything about it and said a machine shop is my only option.

[1stMerc]

You did use loctite on the bolt, correct?

[Blackened300a]

Been here and done that. My crank bolt was cross threaded then snapped in the snout. I didn't have the steeda installation bolt so I reused the stock bolt with a smaller washer to pull in the balancer. Problem was that it didn't pull straight and cross threaded which began a 6hr ordeal of drilling with numerous bits to extract it.
When it finally came out, we used a tap to chase what threads I had left inside of the crank and by some miracle, the bolt was able to grab threads and hold. I didn't go by the ford TTY spec. I just put a new bolt in and torqued it to 100ft-lbs and let it go. It held fine for a few years til I replaced the crank on my engine rebuild.
Good luck!

[a_d_a_m]

You did use loctite on the bolt, correct? Does Ford spec call for Loctite?

I've never used Loctite on crank bolts - 3 Marquis, one Marauder, and one Mustang later, I've had no issues. I did, however, use RTV on the keyway for the balancer.

[BlueFusion]

I did not use loctite. I figured at this point it may do more harm than good. Considering how well the bolt threaded this time around, I think there's enough thread to maintain the bolt torque. Additionally, as someone pointed out on CVN, there's nothing pulling on the balancer. It's a tight fit as it is. So long as the bolt can keep some tension, i don't see why this wouldn't last. The pulley is on tight, belt is aligned, zero wobble, and the bolt has gripped onto *something* and is holding torque.

With that said, am I happy with it? Hell no. I am a perfectionist and there's noone to blame but myself for trying to cut corners and inexperience.

What I did learn, and hope others learn from this too:
1. Throw the installation bolt away.
2. Get the CORRECT installation tool even if you have to go out of your way.
3. Clean out the snout threads of any debris before installation.

[babbage]

The use of a bolt to install a harmonic balancer is WRONG. Yeah, I know many of you have got away with it, but that doesn't make it right. Using an impact wrench is double wrong. But you didn't post this before the stripping, so . . .

Chase it with a tap, thread the bolt in and see how bad it is. Drill, tap and helicoil to replace the damage if needed.

And use the proper harmonic balancer installation tool (http://www.cal-vantools.com/p-206-long-reach-harmonic-balancer-pulley-installer.aspx) to put it on!!


+1 Never use impact wrench to install , this is what damaged your threads - removal is ok, although the picture of your crank bolt you posted looks like you used a crescent wrench.

Yes use blue locktight.

Here is the good ARP Bolt for Marauder/CV: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-156-2501


Torque spec for ARP MM Crank bolt is 90 ft/lps.. I called ARP to get that number.

March 1158 is a fluid filled underdrive crank pulley which is better than the steeda, I had to get a special crank pulley removal tool from summit to take it off...

I hope it holds together for you.

[fastblackmerc]

I did not use loctite. I figured at this point it may do more harm than good. Considering how well the bolt threaded this time around, I think there's enough thread to maintain the bolt torque. Additionally, as someone pointed out on CVN, there's nothing pulling on the balancer. It's a tight fit as it is. So long as the bolt can keep some tension, i don't see why this wouldn't last. The pulley is on tight, belt is aligned, zero wobble, and the bolt has gripped onto *something* and is holding torque.

With that said, am I happy with it? Hell no. I am a perfectionist and there's noone to blame but myself for trying to cut corners and inexperience.

What I did learn, and hope others learn from this too:
1. Throw the installation bolt away.
2. Get the CORRECT installation tool even if you have to go out of your way.
3. Clean out the snout threads of any debris before installation.
If you followed the Steeda installation instructions you would have had no problems. I've done 2 or 3 under driver pulley installs and never had a problem.

[RF Overlord]

as someone pointed out on CVN, there's nothing pulling on the balancer. It's a tight fit as it is. So long as the bolt can keep some tension, i don't see why this wouldn't last. Agreed. There's no axial tension on the balancer, so no reason for it to come loose as long as the bolt can maintain some torque.

[sflrainmaker01]

Good luck with the repair! I hope it holds tight for you! ;) However, just reading this post makes me wonder how good of a mod is this? Are there some noticeable gains (sop or otherwise)?

[martyo]

Good luck with the repair! I hope it holds tight for you! ;) However, just reading this post makes me wonder how good of a mod is this? Are there some noticeable gains (sop or otherwise)?

I am not a huge fan of them. Personally, I think that the return is minimal at best. Then when you add in teh downside of flickering lights, etc., well...

[sflrainmaker01]

I am not a huge fan of them. Personally, I think that the return is minimal at best. Then when you add in teh downside of flickering lights, etc., well...

thanks! That's what I was wondering. It seems the same as when I did a couple 5.0's and then my Mark VII LSC SE. The Mark (with all the electronic goodies) didn't seem to like them even though I didn't install the alternator pulley. I'm saving my $$ for the Eaton! :banana: :burnout:

[a_d_a_m]

the downside of flickering lights I have not personally noticed this. The worst that happens is that the dash lights will occasionally dim (only slightly) at extended stop lights or in traffic jams.

However, I do agree that it's sort of a useless mod. I didn't notice too much and I think what I did notice was 50% placebo.

[RF Overlord]

The general consensus is that it isn't a worthwhile mod by itself, but in concert with other mods, like a CAI, or PHP intake spacer, there is a small gain. I did the intake spacer and underdrives on Mary's car at the same time and there was a noticeable improvement in the mid-range. Not huge, mind you, but it's there.

[BlueFusion]

there's a small improvement in spooling up the engine but not much. Like it was said above, it makes a difference with other mods. I probably woulf not do this again knowing how much a pain it is.

Also, my lights.never flicker or dim but my blower fan slows when iden and I'm gear.

[RF Overlord]

That can be fixed in the tune. Have the idle in drive RPM raised by 100.

[fastblackmerc]

That can be fixed in the tune. Have the idle in drive RPM raised by 100.

200 rpm is better.

[BlueFusion]

That's what I did on my 2000 MGM. It still had a small decrease in blower speed, but quite a bit less than this.

I bumped up the drive-idle mainly to spool up a bit faster at the stop lights hehe

[Vortech347]

I think running a UDP in combo of 4.10 gears is great. Keeps the RPMs down a bit as if you weren't geared. Especially when cruising at 2500-3k rpm on the open road. Gives your accessories a little break. I haven't really noticed any massive draw back. I picked up 7 to the wheels.

[1stMerc]

I did not use loctite. I figured at this point it may do more harm than good. Considering how well the bolt threaded this time around, I think there's enough thread to maintain the bolt torque. Additionally, as someone pointed out on CVN, there's nothing pulling on the balancer. It's a tight fit as it is. So long as the bolt can keep some tension, i don't see why this wouldn't last. The pulley is on tight, belt is aligned, zero wobble, and the bolt has gripped onto *something* and is holding torque.

With that said, am I happy with it? Hell no. I am a perfectionist and there's noone to blame but myself for trying to cut corners and inexperience.

What I did learn, and hope others learn from this too:
1. Throw the installation bolt away.
2. Get the CORRECT installation tool even if you have to go out of your way.
3. Clean out the snout threads of any debris before installation.

NO biggie, went back and reread the instuctions. No Loctite mentioned, must have been thinking about another install.

Glad it worked out for you.