Another Plug Thread

[Ross]

Sarge's Denso post got me wondering. I know a lot of people here have Dennis' Stage I which includes Denso's. Sarge has actually dynoed the Denso's, which I suspect very few other people did.
My question: Besides the OEM plugs and Denso's, is anyone using any other brand, and if so what results are you getting?
I suspect that like Sarge, if you get any difference it will be small, but even a few HP is good considering that plugs cost a lot less than other go fast goodies.

[TripleTransAm]

When dyno-testing plugs, it would probably be best to dyno the new plugs first, a few times, then try the older ones. Traditionally, many engines pull better numbers on the 2nd or 3rd pulls since things have been 'blown out' by that first run. I've seen variations of 5-6 rwhp between runs, with no changes, on some engines. The amount of variation depends on the engine, since some engines foul up on easier driving more than others.

[TAF]

Ross,

I run the cooler, Motorcraft copper plugs...and to date, I still have the most powerful (via Dyno) N/A Marauder. What were the exact numbers of increased HP...don't know.

[Ross]

Todd, along with the cooler plugs, I guess you also put in a cooler thermostat?

[TAF]

Todd, along with the cooler plugs, I guess you also put in a cooler thermostat?Yes. 180 degree.

[SergntMac]

When dyno-testing plugs, it would probably be best to dyno the new plugs first, a few times, then try the older ones. Traditionally, many engines pull better numbers on the 2nd or 3rd pulls since things have been 'blown out' by that first run. I've seen variations of 5-6 rwhp between runs, with no changes, on some engines. The amount of variation depends on the engine, since some engines foul up on easier driving more than others.
Thanks, /Steve...I understand the need to be as precise in research as one can be. I am not a scientist, I don't know all the protocols of scientific testing. But, I planned and followed as careful a course I could imagine, to learn what I could in isolating Denso performance.

Looking back, I may have an opportunity to do it differently, but I am comfortable with how I completed this test, on that date. Keep in mind that I had two objectives back then. One was to verify that Denso plugs were in fact a real "bang for the buck" mod, and to verify that Dennis Reinhart was tellng me the truth, and not just selling me "stuff" for my Marauder because he could. Back then, I was the first to "test" Dennis, and since then, the only MM.Net member here to date, to conduct any tests of mods from any vendor.

First, let me set the stage for this test. The date was 25 Feb. '03, and the Marauder examined was my first N/A Marauder, which I later sold to purchase the Kenny Brown 1x car.

On that date, this Marauder had other mods in place before, and after this test, none of which should have any bearing on this test.

The spark plugs in place and used as the "base," were the Motorcraft ASWF12, which were part of Reinhart's Stage I kit when I purchased that 13 Nov. '02. This means that the spark plugs in place and tested against, were already "cooler" plugs than the OEMs on my Marauder.

I didn't expect to see a lot of change here, and if I were to conduct this test today, I would start with the OEM plug, not the Stage I. Likewise, I would expect to see greater improvementl, today.

The test MM was driven over the Chicago highways for 45 minutes at 60-70 MPH before arriving at the dyno, with a full tank of Chicago 93 octane gas. The test MM pulled into the dyno "hot and sweaty" and it took about 10 minutes to connect it to the dyno. We did not wait for the engine to return to it's former highway temp of 191 degrees, but we later allowed a 10 minute cooling period between pulls, to simulate that time. We used this time to prepare for the plug swap, and planned to stay inside this 10 minute window.

We completed three pulls, and averaged the numbers, to see a RWHP of 269.1 and a RWTQ of 294.9 as a "base" line performance. With two of us working on the swap, we changed the Motorcraft plugs for the Denso IT-20 (the new replacement for the Motorcraft plugs from Dennis) in under 10 minutes. We waited the full ten, and completed three more pulls, each with a 10 minute break between them, and then averaged the results. RWHP was 273.2 and RWTQ was 297.6.

Under these conditions, the Denso spark plugs of the same temperature range as the Motorcraft spark plugs, provided an additional 4.1 RWHP, and 3.3 RWTQ. Meager improvements, yes. But under 100 bucks too.

I haven't done this test again, and I don't think I need to. Back then, the questions before me were 1) do Denso plugs out perform the OEM/Motorcraft plugs. 2) Is that improvement worth the 95 bucks. And, 3) is Dennis telling me the truth about this mod.

Answer to all three...Yes.

This is why I am really pizzed about the other spark plug threads. Those "save your money" and "my Densos suck" posts caused me to doubt what I had already proven to myself. After 15K of miles on my Denso IT-22s in the Kenny Brown car, I paused to wonder how stupid I had become.

Was I too loyal to Dennis? Or, too forgetful of my own effort to prove, or disprove, Denso value to us.

Looks like I fell victim to Internet BS, but for the last time, eh?

[MI2QWK4U]

I know of someone that tested the Denzos on a stock Marauder on a dyno, yielded 2 rwhp. For what its worth. Only reason I comment on this is I saw the results unfold in front of me and saw the sheets.

[FordNut]

and since then, the only MM.Net member here to date, to conduct any tests of mods from any vendor.

a little exaggeration here wouldn't ya say?

[SergntMac]

I know of someone that tested the Denzos on a stock Marauder on a dyno, yielded 2 rwhp. For what its worth. Only reason I comment on this is I saw the results unfold in front of me and saw the sheets.
Okay Dave...Who, when, where and how?

Now we watch each other, right? We're mutual owners of a spectacular automobile, but now more prone to beating the pizz out of each other because one of us missed a comma. To that end, Dave, please spell Denso correctly? What's your beef with Denso anyway? Because Reinhart sells them?

a little exaggeration here wouldn't ya say?
No...

You may not have been around for those posts, but they were here. Agent 79 has a copy of my 1st MM diary, the details are present there. I got what I got out of the Denso plugs, and under the conditions I've detailed here.

My facts as stated are accurate. And I think it's sad that I have to defend them today. Back then, I never expected to be cross examined on stuff as I am now. Not that I mind it that much, I've got my facts collected and proven, I'll roll them out as I am called out.

But, I do wonder WTF are we doing to each other here, eh?

[Glenn]

Mac:

A great dyno test of the Denso plugs - very scientific. Interesting reading. I am glad I got mine.

Glenn

[Stephen Soulsby]

I using NGK Iridium plugs. They went on sale today at NAPA for $7.99 each.

[TAF]

Back then, I was the first to "test" Dennis, and since then, the only MM.Net member here to date, to conduct any tests of mods from any vendor.
a little exaggeration here wouldn't ya say?

No...

You may not have been around for those posts, but they were here. Agent 79 has a copy of my 1st MM diary, the details are present there. I got what I got out of the Denso plugs, and under the conditions I've detailed here.

My facts as stated are accurate. And I think it's sad that I have to defend them today. Back then, I never expected to be cross examined on stuff as I am now. Not that I mind it that much, I've got my facts collected and proven, I'll roll them out as I am called out.
Uh....according to this thread...this is the 9,127th thread of record at the site.

Here's a report/test/whatever you want to call it that was thread 311 back in August of '02 showing before/after Dyno #s for the "Stage 1 Mod". Maybe you missed this one Mac...cause I don't think you were here then.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=311
I could probably attach 3-4 more from me....and about another dozen or so from others...so, I don't think there are any exclusive rights to any "testing of vendors"....


But, I do wonder WTF are we doing to each other here, eh?maybe it's just me....but I was wondering something...different.

[TAF]

My apologies Ross. I hope my short and succinct answers were helpful to you, at least.

[MI2QWK4U]

Okay Dave...Who, when, where and how?

What's your beef with Denso anyway? Because Reinhart sells them?

No, I dont care who sells them, from what I have seen with my own eyes on a dyno, they just arent worth the high price for the 2 hp they give you.


You may not have been around for those posts, but they were here.

Mac, I have actually been on here longer than you, and yes, I read the posts.


My facts as stated are accurate. And I think it's sad that I have to defend them today. Back then, I never expected to be cross examined on stuff as I am now. Not that I mind it that much, I've got my facts collected and proven, I'll roll them out as I am called out.

Mac, I never said your facts arent accurate, ever. But insomuch you insinuate that mine are wrong. You dont have to defend yourself to me or anyone here, you arent on trial, so get over that. Bottom line is different results are possible, period. Mac, we are talking about such small amounts of RWHP, honesly, cant you see that? How much RWHP do you loose when the humidity goes up 25%? it its 25 Degrees warmer, colder? if the gas is 92 octane instead of 94 octane. So why not get past this and agree that we can disagree? I am not spending $100 on spark plugs, period. My choice, why cant you respect that choice and my reasoning behind that choice. What I have seen is if someone doesnt agree with your facts or opinions, they have to get half a page worth of post explaining why you dont agree...who cares. I think what bugs me more than anything is the inability for more than one persons experience be recieved as true and factual. And Im sorry I mispelled Denso.

But, I do wonder WTF are we doing to each other here, eh?

Sorry about the format above, I didnt have time to cut and paste the quote above, I just put in my responses to Macs post. Mine are blue, his quotes are black.

[FordNut]

Thanks Todd. Saves me from having to research some of the additional items that others have tested that Mac doesn't even have.

[bigslim]

Mac, I may be real ignorant on this but it seems to me that $100 for plugs that only improved the end result by only 4.1 hp is a little expensive. I say this because I have heard most say that they don't last as long. I have seen some postings here that some have had to replace theirs in short periods of time. Is it worth the cost of replacing these plugs more often just to get a few extra hp?

[hitchhiker]

How about Motorcraft plugs in one step cooler with the 180 stat?

Does anybody have the part number for the Motorcraft plugs that would be one step cooler?

Thanks,

David

[SergntMac]

I hear y'all, thanks for the input.

Never occured to me that membership numbers had anything to do with this. AIRI, back then, there were just a few doing any dyno testing of anything, and then only to see global Stage I improvement over the bone stock numbers, as TAF has pointed out. My Stage I "before and after" testing is much older than the testing I posted here, I didn't think to check the calendar to see who did what when, and that it would figure this much here. On that test day, my focus was on the Denso plugs and their value, and this is why that 411 was repeated here in this thread.


Mac, I may be real ignorant on this but it seems to me that $100 for plugs that only improved the end result by only 4.1 hp is a little expensive. I say this because I have heard most say that they don't last as long. I have seen some postings here that some have had to replace theirs in short periods of time. Is it worth the cost of replacing these plugs more often just to get a few extra hp?
I agree, 4 HP from a 100 buck mod could be unreasonable expense for some, but not for others. We have members here who spend 50 bucks for a K&N filter, and get nothing but personal satisfaction that they have made some kind of mod to their MM. I cannot disagree with that. As for longevity, that's exactly why this thread got started. I've logged 15K of hard driving on the Densos, and without any unusual wear, or, failure. If something gave up early for others, there may be another reason for it and the Densos suffered from that.

However, your looking at this from the perspective I wish everyone would see it from, bigslim. This is one of reasons why I undertook the testing of Stage I and II mods to begin with. Deciding what's "bang for the bucK" lies with the spender of the bucks, and knowing the "bang" is an important element of that decision.

Until I began parsing out the mods one by one, the "my-seat-of-my-pants" test data was all we had, and that alone is insufficient for MM owners, IMHO. Furthermore, this is a test that did occur, and facts were discovered and posted. This is highly more valuable than second hand or third party "someone said" advice. It's just like listeng to the media. You can listen to what the President said, or, listen to unknown "informed sources inside the White House..." At least, now you have a choice.

Over time, we have seen a few members here blindly call for mods and insist that something was absolutely necessary, only to realize they had no factual background to support it. I remember several discussions on "you have to add the driveshaft" which in some ways, continues today. My position on the driveshaft was clear then, as it is today. Test first, address the possible vibration if you need to, at least there is a fix available.

On other popular mods, it was word of mouth, and back then there was only one professional mouth talking to us, Dennis Reinhart. I warned him as I bought more mods, that I would be testing them to the best of my abilities, and he said "okay." The end result, was that Dennis was right, his mods work as promised. I can say that because I've tested them for myself, and posted my results here to help others decide. Believe me, had they not passed, the truth would have been posted. I am not a Reinhart disciple, just a customer like y'all.

If y'all don't need to hear about this stuff, that's okay with me. I don't post this 411 to pizz people off. I know why I do stuff to my MM, and I spend my bucks accordingly. If I can be of any help to others, I will. And, I'll be more careful about the how and when I post it. Right now, there's another post up, asking about the HP and TQ one may expect from certain mods. I think I'll pass...

[Fourth Horseman]

Just wanted to say that this is an excellent discussion. I'm getting close to doing my stage 1 mods, so all this info is very useful and appreciated. Thx, guys! :up:

[Marauderer]

First off, I want to chime in on this as I have seen quite a bit of dancing around this subject and I just can’t sit on my hands any longer.

I should say that I do not consider myself the authority on the subject, but it is very simple for me. I do what I say and I say what I do. Nothing more….. So, right or wrong, here goes….

A Denso completely by itself is not going to do anything substantial for your car that you can't chalk up to test error on a stock Marauder. There is no magic involved in spark plugs, but there are some facts.

The purpose behind a denso or any other fine wire plug is to create less resistance, thus requiring less current to give you a better spark. This, we have all heard a million times. But think about this, what is the purpose or use of a stronger spark and when does it come into play?

Well, 1st off you might want an easier or more efficient spark when you are dealing with a weak ignition system, which we do not have. 2nd, you might want a more efficient plug when you want to WIDEN the gap. Why? Because you want to jump a wider space than for which the ignition system was designed. OR, you are fighting spark blow out in a supercharged application (there are for sure others but I will leave them alone). In the case of the latter you are not really wanting to widen the gap, rather you are trying to keep your gap open. I’ll explain this a little more, as boost goes up, the gap you can get away with shrinks substantially. You want to do what you can to keep the gap as wide as possible without blowing it out.

Now think about this. Your stock gap is what, .052 and you want to put in a Denso at .044? You actually want to shrink the gap on a stock car where there is no need what-so-ever?

OK, so you say, well, the denso is going to have less resistance and therefore create a hotter, wider spark. I say, what is better; short and thick or thin and long :) Your preference, or your problem I guess :)

Regardless, do you really think it is going to make a difference on your STOCK car? The major reason you get an improvement with the so called STAGE I is the chip itself. Now does a colder plug help (The Rule of thumb is 1 range colder per 75 – 100 HP)? Yes. It will let you run a little more spark. Will a colder thermostat help? Yes, as it too will help you run a little more spark. How much? Well it all depends. Just keep in mind that we are talking relativity here and a ton of variables such as gas quality etc. Yes, you may benefit, but the gains are relatively small. I can say this, unless you are having you car tuned on a dyno, there is no mail order tuner alive that is going to push your spark table enough to take true advantage of the situation.

I’m wrong you say? Well lets hear from all those that have bought a chip of any kind, then later paid Jerry Wrobleski to tune their car :) and seen dramatic increases. It isn’t magic, it is plain ole professional tuning and having the right tools to get the job done.

Now, do plugs come into play when you go supercharged or add any other type of power adder? Well sure they do. First, you want to go colder to help avoid knock and second you want a stronger spark to keep the gap as wide as you possibly can without “blow out”. Again, how much does it matter? Again, the answer is complicated, but overall it matters very little as the gains or losses involved are very minimal. Thus the reason you will hear most died in the wool tuners say “just use coppers”.

OK, so I hit the high points and now you might look at my signature below and say “Well Bill, I see that you run a colder thermostat and plugs”. My answer is very simple. I am supercharged and running 460 RWHP :) I can’t safely make any more HP on a non-internal modified engine so what I am looking for is a safety margin. I run the spark I run and I want a very wide margin for error to avoid ping at all costs as the consequences would be disastrous at these HP and RPM levels.

In conclusion, do you need Denso plugs?

If you are stock, I would think not, but it is your money.

If you have a mail order chip, I would think not, but again, it is your money. Keep in mind, a mail order chip just isn't going to take you close enough to the ragged edge to matter, but maybe, just maybe you might squeak a little out of them (again is a gain less than the margin of error for a dyno worth the money).

If you have access to a custom dyno tune or the SCT Pro Racer Package, well my answer would be, sure. But, again it depends on a million variables that are as unique as every individual on this board and there is no "absolute" answer…….

Thermostats are another matter, but for now at least we are talking about Denso plugs so I’ll keep on topic :up:

[BillyGman]

Nice post there William!!! I think that you put it best. Very educational. And that's what I look for on this board. To be educated in automotive high performance matters. :up:

.....let me also say that I don't neccessarily think that weather or not the Denso plugs are worth the expense has to be a reflection on Dennis Reinhart. If he recommends them, well, that's one thing. But if he tells you that you have to have them, that would be an entirely different matter. I'm a customer of Dennis's and like many others here, I have spoken to him on the phone a number of times. And I have never heard him say that I have to buy the Denso plugs, or that it's taking a risk if you install his chip w/out installing the Denso's.

If he did that, then I'd seriously question him on that, but he never did. He simply offers them to his customers. If you choose to buy them, and later on you decide that they weren't needed, then it still isn't any reflection on Dennis, if he never said that you have to get them anyway. He simply offered, or suggested that you do.

My point is that just because Dennis is a vendor, doesn't mean that he isn't entitled to his own preferences too. I bought the Denso's, but I wouldn't buy them again. But that's simply my preference. Does that, or should that be a reflection on Dennis? Not at all. Do I think that I've been taken, or ripped off? No way. It's simply a choice, and a preference. And infact, in all fairness to Dennis, I must tell you, that before I bought the Denso's from him, I priced them elsewhere, and I couldn't find any price on them that would even match his price, let alone beat it.

So I don't think the extra $$ for exotic sparkplugs are worth it, since they're not needed. But that's my opinion, and it's my Marauder that I think about. But if you think otherwise about the Denso's, then I suggest you get them from Dennis, cuz you're not likely to find a better price on them than the one he offers. vendors offer a variety of products in most cases. But that doesn't mean that just because you like some of the products that they offer, that you have to like or purchase all of the ones that they do.

There are some things Dennis sells that I think are great, and some others that I wouldn't purchase for my own reasons. And I think that I can say that about most (if not all) other vendors as well.

So if we're going to discuss the pluses and minuses of any hi-perf product, then I think we should do so, and can do so, w/out it being a reflection on Dennis Reinhart, or neccessarily any other vendor, since we're merely discussing our own veiwpoints anyway.

I happen to hate Diehard batteries. I've had bad experiences w/them more than once. So I would never buy one again. But does that mean that I view everything that Sears sells as being worthless? Ofcourse not. And that's the same way I look at this thing w/the Denso plugs.

I really don't see why there always has to be so many politics on this board. It isn't neccesary, and it isn't neccessarily brought about by Logan, nor by the vendors either. But by the members. It shouldn't be the case people. We are the ones who make this board what it is, good or bad. And we are the ones who spend our hard earned money and support the vendors here. So we should all be able to share our opinions freely, as well as be open to other's opinions, w/out pitting one vendor against the other, and w/out implying, nor being accused of suggesting that any one vendor's services, or products are all bad, to lift another one up.

That's what politicians do during their campaigns. Some more than others. But that's politics, not a car enthusiasts' board/club. I think we should leave the politics out. Okay, speech over.

[Marauderer]

Agreed. There are certain members on here that always seem to take the political route no matter what, especially if they are countered. I have not only seen it from afar but lived it several times. In fact, I took a long vacation from this site because the politics became so putrid.

However, have a little different spin on this and why they do it and it is almost comical to watch. I challenge you to sit back and see it as I do :), as a simple defensive mechanism. Watch the ones that do this on a regular basis.

Keep in mind, there are a few that are very simply paranoid. I refer to them as "Paranoid Defenders of the Relm" or "Knights of the Paranoid Order". There is just no help for them. Then there are the others. If you disagree or contradict them, they simply drag someone elses name into it to encourage backup from those that don't really know the answer but are going to defend their tuner of choice to the bitter end. And yes, in 99% of the cases it was not necessary nor did the alleged "offending post" ever even mention or insinuate anything.

And I agree, regardless of whether you like Dennis and his offerings or not, people do drag him into things on this board on a regular basis that never came from marching orders on his part or even with his approval. They do so because they have no where else to go and don't know enough themselves to continue the debate on technical grounds. Like I said before, they call in his name and accuse you of insulting him so others will chime in whether they know the answer or not, to defend someone that didn't need defending in the first place or to just plain intimidate you for fear of making others mad!

Happy Maraudering!

[FordNut]

OK, let me make a comment about Dennis and the Denso plugs. Anybody who has been around here awhile remembers the time when we had a few mods available and they were just individual items. Dennis was about the only game in town and we all appreciate that somebody stepped up and developed performance mods for us. At that time, Dennis recommended the copper plugs, and if you wanted to really take advantage of the chip you could go down one heat range and change to a colder thermostat. A thread was started about the Denso plugs and Dennis suggested that the gains to be had were not worth the expense. But several of us wanted them anyway, so Dennis responded to market demands and started offering them to us. Then the modification packages started to get the names Stage 1 and Stage 2 and the Denso plugs got kind of thrown in. So it's not really an issue of Dennis promoting the Denso plugs, he is just giving us what we want.

[BillyGman]

Dennis recommended the copper plugs, and if you wanted to really take advantage of the chip you could go down one heat range and change to a colder thermostat. A thread was started about the Denso plugs and Dennis suggested that the gains to be had were not worth the expense. But several of us wanted them anyway, so Dennis responded to market demands and started offering them to us.

There ya go........thanks for that piece of info FordNut. That helps to put things into perspective. That's why we really don't need all the politics.