Staying N/A -performance cams upgrade experiences, questions

[chief455]

I am determined NOT to supercharge this car. $$ won't allow it anyway.
If this idea is proven not cost effective, I'll leave it stock.
According to the previous owner, he installed 98 Cobra intake cams and changed all the top end gaskets.
He is a dealership Ford technician. Everything else he claimed done to the car has been verified as true.
I've seen a few cam set prices and know they aren't cheap. But at least it can be done with the rest of the motor/etc left stock.
I'm doing my homework on a cam/springs/header upgrade:


What is the max cam lift on a stock 2004 engine?
good sources for 4.6 4V cams/springs?
will new springs REQUIRE head removal?
are performance timing chains required on these engines to 6500 rpm?
what is reasonable time for a full cams/springs swap, by a pro mechanic/shop?
headers would be installed at the same time.
researching and saving until I decide this is way to go - I'm old school - Add hot cam & headers with rear gears, convertor/tune.
thanks for any advice on this topic, and please refrain fom telling me to put a blower on it.

[Vortech347]

Most grinds are around 1200 for a set of 4. You can do 96-98 Cobra cams for about 2-300$ and find 15-20hp.

Springs can be done on the engine with the correct Ford tool and compressed air in the cylinder. But its labor intensive and around $200-300 for parts alone.
Nope won't need different timing chains. They'll take 7000rpm no problem.
Cam swaps take time, especially if they do it right and degree them. You're looking at paying about the same in labor as the parts. (half way to a supercharger) Degreeing 4 cams is a lot more work than just one.

I won't tell you to do anything, But $ per HP nothing will gain you HP like Nitrous or a Supercharger. NA is the most expensive way to make power. Especially on a 4V's and you are paying someone else to do the work. You can make 300-320rwhp or 400-450rwhp. Your choice.

[jwibbity]

there are a couple really good threads on here about the 96-98 cobra cams and just cams in general for these cars, i think nasvt and racerx had alot of info, illl try and dig it up for you

http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78011&highlight=nasvt

http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64644&highlight=nasvt

[chief455]

I won't tell you to do anything, But $ per HP nothing will gain you HP like Nitrous or a Supercharger. NA is the most expensive way to make power. Especially on a 4V's and you are paying someone else to do the work. You can make 300-320rwhp or 400-450rwhp. Your choice.
All good info, thanks.
I spent ~$3k and made 400rwhp N/A on my Trans Am, then spent ~$20k to build it again for a Procharger, making 550rwhp. I've been down the road, don't need or want to again. The Marauder can be a 13 second car and I'll be happy - if it's within budget. If the N/A cam idea costs too much, it stays stock.

[chief455]

there are a couple really good threads on here about the 96-98 cobra cams and just cams in general for these cars, i think nasvt and racerx had alot of info, illl try and dig it up for you

http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78011&highlight=nasvt

http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64644&highlight=nasvt
great - I'll pm those guys, thanks!

[lji372]

Contact WPG_Merc

Not sure what cams he used but his numbers were impressive. I don't remember exactly what the were but I was surprised. Mo's tuned it during mvxi

[Glenn]

Most grinds are around 1200 for a set of 4. You can do 96-98 Cobra cams for about 2-300$ and find 15-20hp.

Springs can be done on the engine with the correct Ford tool and compressed air in the cylinder. But its labor intensive and around $200-300 for parts alone.
Nope won't need different timing chains. They'll take 7000rpm no problem.
Cam swaps take time, especially if they do it right and degree them. You're looking at paying about the same in labor as the parts. (half way to a supercharger) Degreeing 4 cams is a lot more work than just one.

I won't tell you to do anything, But $ per HP nothing will gain you HP like Nitrous or a Supercharger. NA is the most expensive way to make power. Especially on a 4V's and you are paying someone else to do the work. You can make 300-320rwhp or 400-450rwhp. Your choice.

Listen to MM forum members who know what they are saying. Your going to spend a great deal of money and time with disappointing results. It has been done before many times with the same minimal results - Go Nitrous or SC or don't go at all - not worth it.

[Motorhead350]

If you want 13s N/A, it seems like the best way is 4:10 gears, 3500 stall, cold air intake, headers and 2 high flow cats.

You should do 13.8.

Just from what I read. If I wasn't so worried, I would run down the track and let you know my results because the very setup I mentioned is what I have.

[Blackmobile]

I ran a 13.5 on a stock motor with what Dom had mentioned, including under drive pulleys and leaning out my tune (Back when tuners gave you the ability to tweak it a little). Also the motor had over 80K miles on it and the exhaust was with Cobra manifolds.



If you want 13s N/A, it seems like the best way is 4:10 gears, 3500 stall, cold air intake, headers and 2 high flow cats.

You should do 13.8.

Just from what I read. If I wasn't so worried, I would run down the track and let you know my results because the very setup I mentioned is what I have.

[lji372]

343rwhp 317 torque ain't too shabby

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=89125

[chief455]

Listen to MM forum members who know what they are saying. Your going to spend a great deal of money and time with disappointing results. It has been done before many times with the same minimal results - Go Nitrous or SC or don't go at all - not worth it.
I am listening - as stated, if proven to be not worth it, I'll leave my internals stock.

If you want 13s N/A, it seems like the best way is 4:10 gears, 3500 stall, cold air intake, headers and 2 high flow cats.
You should do 13.8.

Just from what I read. If I wasn't so worried, I would run down the track and let you know my results because the very setup I mentioned is what I have.
I'm there already, except headers.

I ran a 13.5 on a stock motor with what Dom had mentioned, including under drive pulleys and leaning out my tune (Back when tuners gave you the ability to tweak it a little). Also the motor had over 80K miles on it and the exhaust was with Cobra manifolds.
That is pretty much what I'm talking about accomplishing. It sounds like adding cams for $3000 more will gain me what - .50 off the 1/4 mile?:confused:

[Vortech347]

I am listening - as stated, if proven to be not worth it, I'll leave my internals stock.

I'm there already, except headers.

That is pretty much what I'm talking about accomplishing. It sounds like adding cams for $3000 more will gain me what - .50 off the 1/4 mile?:confused:

Corrrect. These aren't like a pushrod engine where you can throw in a $250 cam, $50 timing chain, and $100 springs.

This is why my race car is a pushrod and my 03' Cobra only has basic upgrades.

[WPG_Merc]

I went with Comp Cams Stage 3 N/A Blower Cams with a new timing set Chains & Guides.I still have to get the cams degreed this spring because I ran out of time for MV 11 & a tune,But thankful Martyo/Jeff had time for me when I got there to do a dyno tune on it.
The engine had developed a bad timing chain tensioner & one stretched chain & could HAVE blown up.I was only planning to have a new timing set installed but thought may as well upgrade the cams when it was a part too.
I chose Comp Cams N/A Stage 3 because most all the Comp Cams are the same price & it's better to go to the max rather then tear it apart again if you are not satisfied with stage 1 or 2 or Cobra cams as it's not cheap to redo it.
With Comp Cams Stage 3 N/A Blower Cams you can still upgrade with a blower or ZEX NOS later if the MM is not crazy enough for you.
The sound & power/torque is awesome,But I still have to get a 3500 stall in spring because the cams are overpowering the stock converter,But right now the MM turns heads with it's lumpy sound. :D

[chief455]

Corrrect. These aren't like a pushrod engine where you can throw in a $250 cam, $50 timing chain, and $100 springs.

This is why my race car is a pushrod and my 03' Cobra only has basic upgrades.
Gotcha. And it seems like the gains from aftermarket cams, suited for stock heads, is not equal to gain from a decent cam in a pushrod engine.

I love cams - ran solid rollers in my street Ford/Pontiac engines. Those are a pricey cam/roller lifter/roller rocker arm upgrade as well, but with ported heads = huge power gain on otherwise low buck engine.
Seems the modular 4V is not as cost effective to this single modification.

Any other guys WITH cam swaps - please weigh in.
I'd love to compare power of:

stock with external bolt ons
same w/ headers and exhaust
same with performance cams
Thanks

[chief455]

I went with Comp Cams Stage 3 N/A Blower Cams with a new timing set Chains & Guides.:D
I sent you a pm. Thanks!

[lji372]

:wave: Gordon

I knew he'd be interested in your setup

FYI: bling will all be in next week :D

[ctrlraven]

Add headers and a torque converter and you should be in the 13's without any issue unless you launch the car horrible.

I did 13's with minimal mods, 14.25 with a JLT intake, GMS coil connectors, NGK plugs, Reinhart tune, stock 3.55 gears on 255/55-18 tires and had on Flowmaster mufflers. I had added a PI 3500 torque converter, 255/50-16 drag radials and a new tune and dropped to 13.72 and picked up a few mph. Added Jmod, UDP, 4.10 gears and opened the exhaust from manifolds back and dropped another tenth off and was at 100 mph trap. I should of shaved off more time and netted more speed but my new dyno tune had trans parameters way off plus my motor had 150-160k miles on it at this point. The best I could do after that was low 14's to 13.8 if I got a spot on launch.

[na svt]

I am determined NOT to supercharge this car. $$ won't allow it anyway.
The reason you see Marauders gaining hp with cams but not performance is because the cams they're using are all wrong; long duration, high intake LC, and wide LSA. These three charactersitics alone can reduce midrange power and when combined they kill it and performance. Marauders are not manual transmissioned Mustangs and can't be cammed as if they were one. Marauders are heavy, automatic transmissioned cars and most of them have gears better suited for hwy blasts than quarter mile runs. BTW, 4.10s are not enough gear for a car with a very tall rear tire (more on that later).

My auto trans Mach 1 at full weight, with a stock engine, stock intake, stock exh manifolds, cobra intake cams installed at 107, march damper, wp and hydraboost pulleys, 4.10 gear and a 3200 stall runs 12.8 with a 1.80 60ft. The 3200 stall only allowed for 2200rpms when footbraking and that is why I advanced the intake cams so much, without the advance my 60ft would have been much higher. Just dropping them into a Marauder (no advancing) will increase rwhp but absolutely no performance gain.

Lets say a Marauder has the same stall and rear gears, and is running a stock diameter tire. Given the fact that the Marauder is about 5000lbs heavier than a Mach 1 the engine must make big tq at 2200 if the car is to get out of the hole. Long dur, wide LSA, cams like Comp stage 3s will not do this despite making high hp numbers.

So, the goal when camming a Marauder is to not give a **** about peak power, but to increase the average power throughout the RPM range seen in the quarter. Maximizong the power from 2000-6500 should be the goal and if achieved will provide a lot more performance than shooting for peak numbers.

If wanting the quickest quarter, I recommend no less than a 4.30 gear and a max of a 4.56 if using a stock diameter tire or 4.10s-4.30s for a 26" tire. The converter has to be a 3600-4000. A higher stall converter will allow the engine to make power in a more narrow band which is easier to accomplish.

The cams can be spec'd for use with stock springs and will not give up any power to those with higher lift, but they will save you a lotta cash as springs and install can get pricey.

How high are you willing to spin the engine?
What are your rear gears?
What stall (RPM) do you intend to get?


I went with Comp Cams Stage 3 N/A Blower Cams
n/a, blower cams? Comp has 10 sets of cams for mod motors, four with .425 lift, three higher lift spec'd for n/a and three for FI. What part number are your cams?

[MOTOWN]

The reason you see Marauders gaining hp with cams but not performance is because the cams they're using are all wrong; long duration, high intake LC, and wide LSA. These three charactersitics alone can reduce midrange power and when combined they kill it and performance. Marauders are not manual transmissioned Mustangs and can't be cammed as if they were one. Marauders are heavy, automatic transmissioned cars and most of them have gears better suited for hwy blasts than quarter mile runs. BTW, 4.10s are not enough gear for a car with a very tall rear tire (more on that later).

My auto trans Mach 1 at full weight, with a stock engine, stock intake, stock exh manifolds, cobra intake cams installed at 107, march damper, wp and hydraboost pulleys, 4.10 gear and a 3200 stall runs 12.8 with a 1.80 60ft. The 3200 stall only allowed for 2200rpms when footbraking and that is why I advanced the intake cams so much, without the advance my 60ft would have been much higher. Just dropping them into a Marauder (no advancing) will increase rwhp but absolutely no performance gain.

Lets say a Marauder has the same stall and rear gears, and is running a stock diameter tire. Given the fact that the Marauder is about 5000lbs heavier than a Mach 1 the engine must make big tq at 2200 if the car is to get out of the hole. Long dur, wide LSA, cams like Comp stage 3s will not do this despite making high hp numbers.

So, the goal when camming a Marauder is to not give a **** about peak power, but to increase the average power throughout the RPM range seen in the quarter. Maximizong the power from 2000-6500 should be the goal and if achieved will provide a lot more performance than shooting for peak numbers.

If wanting the quickest quarter, I recommend no less than a 4.30 gear and a max of a 4.56 if using a stock diameter tire or 4.10s-4.30s for a 26" tire. The converter has to be a 3600-4000. A higher stall converter will allow the engine to make power in a more narrow band which is easier to accomplish.

The cams can be spec'd for use with stock springs and will not give up any power to those with higher lift, but they will save you a lotta cash as springs and install can get pricey.

How high are you willing to spin the engine?
What are your rear gears?
What stall (RPM) do you intend to get?


n/a, blower cams? Comp has 10 sets of cams for mod motors, four with .425 lift, three higher lift spec'd for n/a and three for FI. What part number are your cams?

I 100% agree with installing the proper cam in a Marauder, but i totally disagree with a 4:56 gear in a Marauder, and no way in hell would i drop a 4,000 stall converter in a N/A Marauder who wants to stall to 4K just to leave a stop sign! been there done that, high stalls are at home at the track, not the street.

Lets look at the obvious here, there is no budget friendly way to make a Marauder truly preform, cams are $1200, figure another $1000-1200 for the install, a good converter is another $1000, give or take 400-500 for install, a tune is about $400, want gears and a new diff? figure another $1000 for parts and install!

Well looky here you just spent as much as an Eaton swap but you will only get 1/3 of the performance, and 1/3 of the RWHP of an Eaton swap!
sound like a plan? if you want to spend a whole lot of money and not get much of a return go right ahead, there are many here who were hell bent on a N/A setup, then they came to there senses and went S/C:burnout:

[na svt]

A 4k stall foot brakes at 3k (give or take a little), and when pulling away the RPM's don't get close to 4k. Also, not everyone wants forced induction which by the way has it's expenses also, tune, fuel system, converter, etc. Also, there some people that take care of their own labor.



1/3 of the performance? Please show me the formula for calculating this.

[MOTOWN]

A 4k stall foot brakes at 3k (give or take a little), and when pulling away the RPM's don't get close to 4k. Also, not everyone wants forced induction which by the way has it's expenses also, tune, fuel system, converter, etc. Also, there some people that take care of their own labor.



1/3 of the performance? Please show me the formula for calculating this.

I agree everyone doesnt want to go S/C, but when you add up what he is going to pay for what he is describing, it will exceed the cost of an Eaton, And yeah im one of those who does his own wrenching, but i dont assume most others do as well.

You and i both know a N/A 281 c.i. Marauder will never keep up with a simple Eaton swap, Even if he builds a N/A beast he will make what 300-320 RWHP? NUFF SAID

[na svt]

This is what he wants:

I am determined NOT to supercharge this car. $$ won't allow it anyway.

please refrain from telling me to put a blower on it.

I don't believe he wants to keep up with an eaton car, nor does he want to be that quick.

My Mach was n/a and could have been quicker with a supercharger, but that doesn't mean that I wanted a supercharger or needed it to be quicker.

[MOTOWN]

This is what he wants:


I don't believe he wants to keep up with an eaton car, nor does he want to be that quick.

My Mach was n/a and could have been quicker with a supercharger, but that doesn't mean that I wanted one.

No argument on that, if he is set on not having one cool, but do you not agree cams, tune, gears, stall will cost more:confused:

[Zack]

Make sure you take a ride in a supercharged Marauder before you spend the money on NA upgrades.

Its a big wake up call.

[ctrlraven]

Make sure you take a ride in a supercharged Marauder before you spend the money on NA upgrades.

Its a big wake up call.

Says the guy with a turbo MM :burnout:

It would be dumb in my case to buy a s/c kit when my motor has such high mileage, under 100k miles sure it would make sense to but with a new motor I'm going to enjoy the increased NA performance and if I decide to do FI down the road then I'll have a solid starting point with a built forged motor.

[guspech750]

Make sure you take a ride in a supercharged Marauder before you spend the money on NA upgrades.

Its a big wake up call.

Where's the damn "Like" button to click?





Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[MOTOWN]

Make sure you take a ride in a supercharged Marauder before you spend the money on NA upgrades.

Its a big wake up call.

:bows::bows::bows: 100,000,000%TRUTH!

[guspech750]

Says the guy with a turbo MM :burnout:

Where is the damn "Like" button to click on?


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[na svt]

No argument on that, if he is set on not having one cool, but do you not agree cams, tune, gears, stall will cost more:confused:

What does this total?
supercharger
supercharger install
tune
axles
third member
axle and third member install
fuels system upgrade
fuel system upgrade install


Once again, it's what he wants, not what we think he should have.

[MOTOWN]

What does this total?
supercharger
supercharger install
tune
axles
third member
axle and third member install
fuels system upgrade
fuel system upgrade install


Once again, it's what he wants, not what we think he should have.

HMMMMM one word MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!:banana:

[Zack]

I guarantee I could make a functional Centrifugal kit with a used head unit, new piping and fuel mods to handle 450rwhp.
And i could do it for $2500-$3000 with tuning.

[lji372]

I guarantee I could make a functional Centrifugal kit with a used head unit, new piping and fuel mods to handle 450rwhp.
And i could do it for $2500-$3000 with tuning.

i heard that :D

[na svt]

HMMMMM one word MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!:banana:

I'm serious, what would that cost?

[Zack]

I'm serious, what would that cost?

Probably over 9 thousand.
But always start the bidding at $8.00

[ctrlraven]

I guarantee I could make a functional Centrifugal kit with a used head unit, new piping and fuel mods to handle 450rwhp.
And i could do it for $2500-$3000 with tuning.
Would you rather do this type of setup over an Eaton swap though?

[MOTOWN]

I'm serious, what would that cost?

Hell a whole lot as you already know, been there doing that now!:P

[chief455]

Make sure you take a ride in a supercharged Marauder before you spend the money on NA upgrades.

Its a big wake up call.

I've been building cars over 30 years - 10 second street cars both N/A AND SUPERCHARGED. I know how boost feels.

My ignorance is with the 4.6 4V - it's my first one. It seems the 'add cams' logic is as simple as this - it costs 4 times as much as putting a cam in a pushrod motor - that's alot of $ for just a cam upgrade.

And, my goal is not the fastest possible Marauder for the lowest possible budget. I have to pay for labor, which hurts my abilty to mod anything at lowest cost.

It cost me $20k to build a Chevy 383 with a Procharger -and I'd be just as happy now if it were heads and cam only for ~$3k

The blower, to me, requires a ground up built forged shortblock, better flowing heads, a fully improved fuel system, a super tough transmission, rearend and improved brakes to stop it. A good blower and installation. Plus very careful tuning to avoid ANY detonation. Then it still runs risk of mehanical issue causing fuel loss = boom. If guys want to supercharge a stock motor, as the most cost effective power mod, they are eventually going to want more boost, or blow the stocker up at some point - in most cases I've seen.
The cost, level of performance and risk are not in my plans for this car.

So - if performance cams are not a cost effective mod to these cars, I'll leave the internals alone.

I really appreciate you guys, very smart and experienced guys, trying to help me out. I hope this thread is giving other guys information as well. :beer:

[MOTOWN]

Sounds like you would be happy with a Marty O tune, a JLT intake, and 4:10s, best place to start, and NASVT is spot on about the cams they would need to be specifically ground for a 4,200lb Marauder, by the time you buy cams, and pay for labor your looking at $2,200 and your going to need a dyno tune, add $500 care to continue?

[tbone]

I decided to go pretty much as far as I can NA and THEN install the supercharger last. It just seemed to make more sense than putting the cart before the horse.

[chief455]

Sounds like you would be happy with a Marty O tune, a JLT intake, and 4:10s, best place to start, and NASVT is spot on about the cams they would need to be specifically ground for a 4,200lb Marauder, by the time you buy cams, and pay for labor your looking at $2,200 and your going to need a dyno tune, add $500 care to continue?
4.10, JLT, already in ;) another reputable tune already in ;)

SW headers and 3000 stall planned this summer. = $3000 for maybe 30-50rwhp. But the driving experience will be so much more to my liking!!

custom ground cams and dyno tune could be, only because I like how cams sound, proper selection should not hurt performance, and could gain me, maybe 30-50rwhp? at $3000, and it won't grenade (due to the cams) or need any further supporting mods, and sound bad ass - I might.
I might not either, still reading and researching.

A supercharger is not in this cars future. I have a blown, 10 second street car. Marauder is fun as is, just looking for old school thump and mid/low 13's or a little better performance in daily driver tune. Heck, I might have that already, if the 98 Cobra intake cams are really in my engine, and the mods in my sig all work as they should.

I hear the 'don't waste your money' logic - I do.
I'll get it on the street and track this summer, and regroup my need for more. :beer:

[chief455]

I decided to go pretty much as far as I can NA and THEN install the supercharger last. It just seemed to make more sense than putting the cart before the horse.
You mods are right on par with my plans - any track times? Dyno power numbers?
Sure, I bought my T/A already supercharged to get right to the point. Then it's inferior transmission failed on day one. I upgraded to a TH400 and 9" Ford rear as precaution, then his fuel pump fell off inside my tank and it detonated = done. I ended up rebuilding/upgrading the entire car.
Yup - build it for boost from the start, if boost could be in the future ;)

[MOTOWN]

4.10, JLT, already in ;) another reputable tune already in ;)

SW headers and 3000 stall planned this summer. = $3000 for maybe 30-50rwhp. But the driving experience will be so much more to my liking!!

custom ground cams and dyno tune could be, only because I like how cams sound, proper selection should not hurt performance, and could gain me, maybe 30-50rwhp? at $3000, and it won't grenade (due to the cams) or need any further supporting mods, and sound bad ass - I might.
I might not either, still reading and researching.

A supercharger is not in this cars future. I have a blown, 10 second street car. Marauder is fun as is, just looking for old school thump and mid/low 13's or a little better performance in daily driver tune. Heck, I might have that already, if the 98 Cobra intake cams are really in my engine, and the mods in my sig all work as they should.

I hear the 'don't waste your money' logic - I do.
I'll get it on the street and track this summer, and regroup my need for more. :beer:

Sounds like you have a solid plan in place, and half way there already! looking forward to seeing your progress, good luck with your build.

[chief455]

Sounds like you have a solid plan in place, and half way there already! looking forward to seeing your progress, good luck with your build.
Thanks, I appreciate the help!! I'll post up as mods are added and results proven. :beer:

The guys in here are super helpful, all replies are worth reading twice ;)

[chief455]

I guarantee I could make a functional Centrifugal kit with a used head unit, new piping and fuel mods to handle 450rwhp.
And i could do it for $2500-$3000 with tuning.
I wish I could!! Then I might consider forced induction again.
You and other guys in here are far more cabable than myself, in both physical and process ability.

[tbone]

You mods are right on par with my plans - any track times? Dyno power numbers?
Sure, I bought my T/A already supercharged to get right to the point. Then it's inferior transmission failed on day one. I upgraded to a TH400 and 9" Ford rear as precaution, then his fuel pump fell off inside my tank and it detonated = done. I ended up rebuilding/upgrading the entire car.
Yup - build it for boost from the start, if boost could be in the future ;)

13.912 @97.39

I can post my dyno sheet later when I get home - I can't find the old thread where I already posted it. I'm at 287 rwhp. I forget what the torque number is.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37 129&d=1389288647 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37 129&d=1389288647)

[Motorhead350]

S/C is the way to go, but be ready to be a roadside mechanic if you actually plan on driving it.

[Limited360]

S/C is the way to go, but be ready to be a roadside mechanic if you actually plan on driving it.


Meh... My trilogy car seems to be ok :) (knock in wood) I keep a small took kit but I don't plan on using it.

There is something to be said about some nice NA power though!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk so I may sound retarded.

[tbone]

Guspech says his car has never broken down since he s/c it.

[Motorhead350]

Guspech says his car has never broken down since he s/c it.

Has a $800 DD. ;)


Meh... My trilogy car seems to be ok :) (knock in wood) I keep a small took kit but I don't plan on using it.

There is something to be said about some nice NA power though!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk so I may sound retarded.

If you aren't breaking parts, you aren't driving fast enough.

Seriously, from what I read, it seems like Roots is definitely the more "practical" blower and I wish I did that when I first got into boost on the Marauder. Never liked the whine though, sounds like my Chevy right before I blew the engine up in a toll booth. Never liked the sound.

[tbone]

Has a $800 DD. ;)



If you aren't breaking parts, you aren't driving fast enough.

Seriously, from what I read, it seems like Roots is definitely the more "practical" blower and I wish I did that when I first got into boost on the Marauder. Never liked the whine though, sounds like my Chevy right before I blew the engine up in a toll booth. Never liked the sound.

Come on Dom. There are plenty of super reliable s/c MM's out there.

[Motorhead350]

Come on Dom. There are plenty of super reliable s/c MM's out there.

All with less than 10psi or 3,000 miles a year. :P

[tbone]

Mine will be boosted to the edge of safe by Tim Barth. I probably only drive 5000 miles a year these days. I will race it and it won't break.

[clmrt]

S/C is the way to go, but be ready to maintain a motor vehicle like any responsible adult if you actually plan on driving it.

Fixed it for ya.:P

[RubberCtyRauder]

All with less than 10psi or 3,000 miles a year. :P

Was your internal engine components rated for more than 10psi? 500 + Rwhp on factory internals will mean boom at some point especially stop light to stop light pedal mashing.

[tbone]

Fixed it for ya.:P


lol_______

[kcmm]

..........

[kcmm]

I guarantee I could make a functional Centrifugal kit with a used head unit, new piping and fuel mods to handle 450rwhp.
And i could do it for $2500-$3000 with tuning.

i would pay you to do this for me
ps not a bet i would pay you lol

[Motorhead350]

Mine will be boosted to the edge of safe by Tim Barth. I probably only drive 5000 miles a year these days. I will race it and it won't break.

Let me know how that works out for ya.


Was your internal engine components rated for more than 10psi? 500 + Rwhp on factory internals will mean boom at some point especially stop light to stop light pedal mashing.

Last S/C setup had a Cobra engine. It still broke. Yes, it's all my fault. It was worth it.


Fixed it for ya.:P

Nope, Zack did. :P

[Zack]

i would pay you to do this for me
ps not a bet i would pay you lol

Ok drop it off. Labor will be extra

[Mac-MerC]

Ok drop it off. Labor will be extra

What would be the final number including the labor?.... can i get a guesstimate

[kcmm]

Ok drop it off. Labor will be extra
i gotta wait til march to get my bonus but if your willing to i can make it happen.

[guspech750]

Guspech says his car has never broken down since he s/c it.

True story. Since I've Eatonized it and beat the piss out of it. It still has not broken down yet. Going on 3 years.

Not a daily driver any longer. But as much as I've beaten it. That makes up for lost smiles per miles.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[guspech750]

i would pay you to do this for me
ps not a bet i would pay you lol

WINNING:burnout:


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[chief455]

True story. Since I've Eatonized it and beat the piss out of it. It still has not broken down yet. Going on 3 years.

Since I rebuilt my D1-SC Procharged car and tuned it SAFELY, not for max power, I have enjoyed 2 trouble free summers flogging it everywhere I go. I like supercharged cars, just not on this Marauder!

[Bluerauder]

Member "CRUZTAKER" ran the N/A low 13's on 23 October 2004 at Mason Dixon Dragway outside Hagerstown, MD. It was part of the MM invitation to participate in the 3rd Annual Northern Virginia Mustang Club (NVMC) shootout. MM.Net was represented by 12 MMs with a large CAM contigent. Here's the results ..

--- N/A CRUZTAKER 13.270 @ 103.21 MPH (On 100 Octane race tune with driver headlight pulled and bald Pirelli P-Zeros).

He tried for several more years to beat that 13.27 time but was never able to do it in N/A trim. He went to a Supercharger on his MM in about 2008. Can't remember all his mods since that info appears to have been lost to history. At the time, IIRC he was somewhere in the 305-310 RWHP area.

Member "Joe Walsh" ran 12.919 @ 103.83 MPH with his Big Bore 5.0 DOHC and Kooks Headers, Hi-Flow cats and a custom 2.5 inch exhaust with Magnaflows. His car dynoes out at 325 RWHP.

Guys here have been chasing the 13.0 flat barrier for an N/A Marauder for a long time and I don't know of anyone who has made that jump and documented it with paper. They all seem to top out at about 302-305 RWHP as an N/A. Several have just decided to go S/C and call it a day.

Here is a video of CRUZTAKER after S/C 11.85 @ 119 MPH

1sPepFUl8CA

[ctrlraven]

Member "CRUZTAKER" ran the low 13's on 23 October 2004 at Mason Dixon Dragway outside Hagerstown, MD. It was part of the MM invitation to participate in the 3rd Annual Northern Virginia Mustang Club (NVMC) shootout. MM.Net was represented by 12 MMs with a large CAM contigent. Here's the results ..

--- N/A CRUZTAKER 13.270 @ 103.21 MPH (On 100 Octane race tune with driver headlight pulled and bald Pirelli P-Zeros).

He tried for several more years to beat that 13.27 time but was never able to do it in N/A trim. He went to a Supercharger on his MM in about 2009. Can't remember all his mods since that info appears to have been lost to history. At the time, he was somewhere in the 305-310 RWHP area.

Member "Joe Walsh" ran 12.919 @ 103.83 MPH with his Big Bore 5.0 DOHC and headers. His car dynoes out at 325 RWHP.

Guys here have been chasing the 13.0 flat barrier for an N/A Marauder for a long time and I don't know of anyone who has made that jump and documented it with paper. Several have just decided to go S/C and call it a day.
I will be trying with my new NA motor.

[tbone]

Let me know how that works out for ya.


Thanks for the vote of confidence Dom.....

Other than my trans issues which have thankfully gone away since I told the idiot mechanic how to do his own job (and I had a hardened stub shaft installed), my car has been extremely reliable. The Eaton conversion will be done to perfection with the help and advice from a few of the awesome dudes on this site.

See you at the track.....

:burnout:

[tbone]

No wait.....I won't see you at the track. :lol:

Well, maybe in my rear view mirror.....

[tbone]

Ok drop it off. Labor will be extra

Welcome back Zack. :)

[chief455]

Guys here have been chasing the 13.0 flat barrier for an N/A Marauder for a long time and I don't know of anyone who has made that jump and documented it with paper. They all seem to top out at about 302-305 RWHP as an N/A. Several have just decided to go S/C and call it a day.
Thinking no substitute for cubic inches is still the golden rule. Power to weight ratio and getting a low 60' seems to be a wall with MM.
Since I do not want to go S/C, after enjoying my car this year with the typical external bolt on's, I'll explore a big inch long block.....could be interesting :cool:

[chief455]

Welcome back Zack. :)
Yes, glad this thread dragged him from the Chicago garage for a minute!;)
Many of threads I've read doing research go back to 2004 and Zack.....

[fireandice9008]

I'll chime in on this since I think my motor has had almost every part thrown at it a N/A Marauder can take. I don't know exact specifics since the previous owner did the work, and this is going off what he told me. He spent thousands on drivetrain work, and boy am I glad he did :burnout:

This motor was built to take a Kenne Bell, which it will eventually see. I'm running "Gt40" cams, no clue about valve springs or the intake manifold, Mahle pistons and some other forged bits inside. Still running cobra logs, catted X pipe, magnaflows, and stock over axle pipes. JLT intake and Steeda underdrives out front. The car was dyno tuned, I do want to have it redone by Martyo to cure some of the transmission surging.

Trans has been upgraded, not sure of the stall, but the clutch packs are definitely harder grabbing than stock. Rear axle has all the typical stuff, 4.10s, 31 spline axles.

It dynoed at 315 at the rear wheels, the timing was messed with a bit and it's currently at 309, don't remember the torque. I do have the sheets to back this up. I'm hoping by the time I add long tubes and rework the exhaust I can get to 320 out back, all motor.

I say do it. It's your car anyway. And besides, the sound of a nice car camming is hard to beat :cool:

[na svt]

I love it how the OP says he doesn't want FI and all he hears is that he needs FI?

[chief455]

I say do it. It's your car anyway. And besides, the sound of a nice car camming is hard to beat :cool:
Most members have driven home the fact cams are an expensive upgrade relating to power/quickness results. But you raise a good point - cammed up cars just sound bad ass:burnout:

[chief455]

I love it how the OP says he doesn't want FI and all he hears is that he needs FI?
I'm used to it ;)

[Zack]

If you want a NA marauder that's fast you need an LSx

/thread.

I am basing 'fast' on current technology.
If you aren't 12.0's or faster NA, you are way behind the curve.
But I look forward to what you do to your car.

[chief455]

If you want a NA marauder that's fast you need an LSx

/thread.

I am basing 'fast' on current technology.
If you aren't 12.0's or faster NA, you are way behind the curve.
But I look forward to what you do to your car.
Is anyone reading anything I've asked or stated previously?:confused:

All good info, thanks.
I spent ~$3k and made 400rwhp N/A on my Trans Am, then spent ~$20k to build it again for a Procharger, making 550rwhp. I've been down the road, don't need or want to again. The Marauder can be a 13 second car and I'll be happy - if it's within budget. If the N/A cam idea costs too much, it stays stock.

[Zack]

Is anyone reading anything I've asked or stated previously?:confused:

Sorry, I know the smile boost provides all of us.
Carry on

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

I can't wait to finish my eaton swap.

The Marauder with the eaton swap is how it should have came from the factory. Sure it isn't as fast as newer cars out there, but for the price, and reliability- these stock aluminum motors will hold up to an m112 thrown at it with conservative tune/boost... you can't beat it.

[whitey]

The end all be all to this thread is that cam swaps dont make much power per cost ratio. Ive pondered the cam swap idea in the past and quickly forgot about it after ive heard its labor intensive (not a back yard mechanic job) and would cost a lot to have it done for minimal gains. If your looking to throw 2 grand away, ill take it and ill buy you a few gallons of race fuel:)

[tbone]

Is anyone reading anything I've asked or stated previously?:confused:


That's the way we roll here......:beer:

[Motorhead350]

No wait.....I won't see you at the track. :lol:

Well, maybe in my rear view mirror.....

Someone has to answer your road side call.

:lol:

[whitey]

Someone has to answer your road side call.

:lol:

Oh snap! Lol

[Joe Walsh]

I put a set of Crower 'Baja Beast' cams in my engine when I rebuilt it. (circa 2004...there weren't many DOHC cam choices back then.)
They have just a little more duration, but more lift than the OEM cams.
I didn't want to kill my low end torque, especially in a small CID, heavy automatic transmission car.

CROWER CAMSHAFTS
4.6L/5.4L DOHC Modular (4 Valve)

Adv Duration - Duration @.050 Gross Lift
Stock FACTORY OEM SPECS 220 Lobe 228

232 Valve 240 - 172 Lobe 178

Lift: .392 / .390

62925-4 Stage 1 - BAJA BEAST
Tow package.
Specifically designed for heavy truck/SUV applications.
Stock idle.
222 Lobe 228

234 Valve 240 - 176 Lobe 182

Lift: .421 / .427

The 5.0L has dyno'ed at 325 RWHP and 340 RWTRQ.
It was running out of fuel pump (stock) at @ 6,100 rpm.

I know that you don't want to hear this....but.....If I could do it all over again, I'd have bolted a Trilogy S/C kit and a set of headers onto the OEM 4.6L and been happy for many years.
If I could do it over again N/A....I'd drop in a pushrod 427W with Kaase P38 heads and be REALLY happy for many years!!

[Motorhead350]

I

Lift: .392 / .390

and

Lift: .421 / .427



Well?...............

:D

[chief455]

I know that you don't want to hear this....but.....If I could do it all over again, I'd have bolted a Trilogy S/C kit and a set of headers onto the OEM 4.6L and been happy for many years.
If I could do it over again N/A....I'd drop in a pushrod 427W with Kaase P38 heads and been REALLY happy for many years!!
I don't mind hearing anything like that ;)

[chief455]

That's the way we roll here......:beer:
All good in the hood!
A little :argue: is productive in the end ;)

[Jeronimojc]

I guarantee I could make a functional Centrifugal kit with a used head unit, new piping and fuel mods to handle 450rwhp.
And i could do it for $2500-$3000 with tuning.

Music to my ears!! Not to highjack the thread, but I've been considering a basic centrifugal setup that I can upgrade as money permits. One question I have is at what point does an engine have too many miles for a centri upgrade? Assume a well cared for engine.

[ctrlraven]

Thinking no substitute for cubic inches is still the golden rule. Power to weight ratio and getting a low 60' seems to be a wall with MM.
Since I do not want to go S/C, after enjoying my car this year with the typical external bolt on's, I'll explore a big inch long block.....could be interesting :cool:
I've got the starting parts for a big bore 5.0 forged motor for sale. :burnout:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90767

[tbone]

Someone has to answer your road side call.

:lol:


Just because your car breaks (broke) down every 45 miles doesn't mean mine will. ;)

[Motorhead350]

Just because your car breaks (broke) down every 45 miles doesn't mean mine will. ;)

Whatever you say.

EDIT: All gone.

Tommy, I hope you can manage things better than I did.

[tbone]

I'm not necessarily speaking of s/c breakdowns. Seems like every week or so you have some issue.....

[Motorhead350]

I'm not necessarily speaking of s/c breakdowns. Seems like every week or so you have some issue.....

217,000 miles, you're gonna have problems no matter what car it is.

I wish you the best of luck with your setup.


Back on track....

I still think the best N/A setup you can do is 3500 stall, headers, gears, high flow cats and intake. Underdrive pulleys if you want, but from what I have read over the years, there is no point to taking the engine apart for N/A. Bolt ons will get you in the 13s.

[tbone]

True that. I've had my share too.

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

[chief455]

HOW DO I STOP THE BLOWER BABBLE BLOWMANTIC BASHING OF MY THREAD?:eek::eek:

Seriously, you S/C guys need to get a room :shake:

I was trying to discuss N/A in here ;)

[dohc324ci]

I am determined NOT to supercharge this car. $$ won't allow it anyway.
If this idea is proven not cost effective, I'll leave it stock.
According to the previous owner, he installed 98 Cobra intake cams and changed all the top end gaskets.
He is a dealership Ford technician. Everything else he claimed done to the car has been verified as true.
I've seen a few cam set prices and know they aren't cheap. But at least it can be done with the rest of the motor/etc left stock.
I'm doing my homework on a cam/springs/header upgrade:


What is the max cam lift on a stock 2004 engine?
good sources for 4.6 4V cams/springs?
will new springs REQUIRE head removal?
are performance timing chains required on these engines to 6500 rpm?
what is reasonable time for a full cams/springs swap, by a pro mechanic/shop?

headers would be installed at the same time.
researching and saving until I decide this is way to go - I'm old school - Add hot cam & headers with rear gears, convertor/tune.
thanks for any advice on this topic, and please refrain fom telling me to put a blower on it.

Chief if staying NA I highly recommend the basic bolt ons: Long tube headers, full 2.5 inch exhaust, 4.10s, CAI, higher stall converter and a dyno tune from a reputable tuner. You already have 98 Cobra cams your not going to see much HP gains over that to be worth it. I dunno you can add electric water pump/UDP but....those arent cheap for the HP you free up IMO.

The cost of new CAMs IMO aren't worth the investment if you are concerned with bang for buck. That title belongs to EATON SC swap. BTW - I have first hand experience of having a built NA modular motor and if making cheap power NA is your main goal go LSx its been proven over and over. Lots of guys making serious power from LQ4/LQ9 6.0 liter GM motors that can be had for $500!

I have some Comp 106-400 grinds in a Boss50 H/C/I stroker and made 331rwhp/380rwtq. FYI- if I where to do over I would go Vortech S-Trim and FRPP Alluminator crate motor (for Cali reasons!!!!).

Cheers keep us in the loop.

[tbone]

HOW DO I STOP THE BLOWER BABBLE BLOWMANTIC BASHING OF MY THREAD?:eek::eek:

Seriously, you S/C guys need to get a room :shake:

I was trying to discuss N/A in here ;)

Make a donation. Get a flag. Feel good. :)

[chief455]

Make a donation. Get a flag. Feel good. :)
A rainbow flag? Oh, I feel good!!:banana::burnout:

[Motorhead350]

A rainbow flag? Oh, I feel good!!:banana::burnout:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5TqIdff_DQ

So good! So good!

[justbob]

The reason you see Marauders gaining hp with cams but not performance is because the cams they're using are all wrong; long duration, high intake LC, and wide LSA. These three charactersitics alone can reduce midrange power and when combined they kill it and performance. Marauders are not manual transmissioned Mustangs and can't be cammed as if they were one. Marauders are heavy, automatic transmissioned cars and most of them have gears better suited for hwy blasts than quarter mile runs. BTW, 4.10s are not enough gear for a car with a very tall rear tire (more on that later).

My auto trans Mach 1 at full weight, with a stock engine, stock intake, stock exh manifolds, cobra intake cams installed at 107, march damper, wp and hydraboost pulleys, 4.10 gear and a 3200 stall runs 12.8 with a 1.80 60ft. The 3200 stall only allowed for 2200rpms when footbraking and that is why I advanced the intake cams so much, without the advance my 60ft would have been much higher. Just dropping them into a Marauder (no advancing) will increase rwhp but absolutely no performance gain.

Lets say a Marauder has the same stall and rear gears, and is running a stock diameter tire. Given the fact that the Marauder is about 5000lbs heavier than a Mach 1 the engine must make big tq at 2200 if the car is to get out of the hole. Long dur, wide LSA, cams like Comp stage 3s will not do this despite making high hp numbers.

So, the goal when camming a Marauder is to not give a **** about peak power, but to increase the average power throughout the RPM range seen in the quarter. Maximizong the power from 2000-6500 should be the goal and if achieved will provide a lot more performance than shooting for peak numbers.

If wanting the quickest quarter, I recommend no less than a 4.30 gear and a max of a 4.56 if using a stock diameter tire or 4.10s-4.30s for a 26" tire. The converter has to be a 3600-4000. A higher stall converter will allow the engine to make power in a more narrow band which is easier to accomplish.

The cams can be spec'd for use with stock springs and will not give up any power to those with higher lift, but they will save you a lotta cash as springs and install can get pricey.

How high are you willing to spin the engine?
What are your rear gears?
What stall (RPM) do you intend to get?


n/a, blower cams? Comp has 10 sets of cams for mod motors, four with .425 lift, three higher lift spec'd for n/a and three for FI. What part number are your cams?

And not all Marauders are Automatic. :)




Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[justbob]

All with less than 10psi or 3,000 miles a year. :P

20.5 #'s and over 10,000 here. What's the problem? :D

Back on topic. Seriously, love my cams. Sure they're pricey, but what else am I gonna spend my money on? :dunno:


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[L.Mark]

:wave: hey Bob...coming to Louisville...can I get a ride in that non automatic beast???

[justbob]

:wave: hey Bob...coming to Louisville...can I get a ride in that non automatic beast???

Get a ride? Shoot brother, borrow it and take your lovely wife for dinner!

Regarding cams, I wish I could provide results but I swapped my cams at the same time as my valve job, bigger injectors, bigger pump, low compression motor, upping my boost my 9 more (working against me from heat), and going manual.

On top of all that a full stainless works system after dyno, plus the fact I ran down to the wire of making Louisville last year and had to abort degreeing them and still haven't. So a gain if any and how much would be completely irrelevant in helping you with what to expect in your application.

Hell, I can justify the expenditure in just sound alone.. :thumbup:


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[ctrlraven]

HOW DO I STOP THE BLOWER BABBLE BLOWMANTIC BASHING OF MY THREAD?:eek::eek:

Seriously, you S/C guys need to get a room :shake:

I was trying to discuss N/A in here ;)
You'll get use to the everyone saying go S/C. I get told it all the time as I have no desire to go boosted right now. My main focus is to replace my high mileage motor with something that will be a little more fun than what I have been used to but also be a great starting platform if I were to throw boost on it down the road.

With a tune, intake, full exhaust (header to tip), gears and torque converter the car would easily be a mid-high 13 sec car all day long unless you botched the launch.

[babbage]

Used 96-98 Cobra Cams are are cheap and good for N/A if you can find them.

A Stock MM with a $6000 Trilogy kit runs 13.2-13.6
Fastest N/A MM ran a 13.2, Many N/A MM's are 13.6-13.9

So a Trilogy car ran a 13.6 S/C and I ran a 13.8 N/A - The difference isn't as big as you think.

[clintons4]

With a tune, intake, full exhaust (header to tip), gears and torque converter the car would easily be a mid-high 13 sec car all day long unless you botched the launch.

I have all of this on my Marauder minus the converter....still not even close to quick enough. My stock Camaro SS would spank the **** out of my Marauder. So if I had to take a guess you will be searching for forced induction in your future. I know you are asking about cams but from everything I have seen money is better spent in another department. You mention that you can't afford to supercharge but by the time you buy a set of SW headers and exhaust (have you priced this? Must be made from diamonds) along with cams, tuning, and install it seems you will be spending more than an eaton swap anyhow. But hey its your money and I won't tell you how to spend it. :twocents:

[MMBLUE]

I have all of this on my Marauder minus the converter....still not even close to quick enough. My stock Camaro SS would spank the **** out of my Marauder. So if I had to take a guess you will be searching for forced induction in your future. I know you are asking about cams but from everything I have seen money is better spent in another department. You mention that you can't afford to supercharge but by the time you buy a set of SW headers and exhaust (have you priced this? Must be made from diamonds) along with cams, tuning, and install it seems you will be spending more than an eaton swap anyhow. But hey its your money and I won't tell you how to spend it. :twocents:


Great summary and detail. I haven't read most of the replies but N/A + 4600LBS = NO WAY. Go boost :burn:

[chief455]

I have all of this on my Marauder minus the converter....still not even close to quick enough. My stock Camaro SS would spank the **** out of my Marauder. So if I had to take a guess you will be searching for forced induction in your future. I know you are asking about cams but from everything I have seen money is better spent in another department. You mention that you can't afford to supercharge but by the time you buy a set of SW headers and exhaust (have you priced this? Must be made from diamonds) along with cams, tuning, and install it seems you will be spending more than an eaton swap anyhow. But hey its your money and I won't tell you how to spend it. :twocents:
Don't most guys with S/C have headers, convertor, tuning, gears etc also? The forced induction does not negate the cost of these supporting mods, it adds cost to them. To make much more power, I get it.

Blower guys don't blink spending the $3000 for full SW headers/exhaust to gain 25hp, but for an N/A guy to spend it on cams = :lol:

What most members that replied are failing to read from my original post is 'are cams a cost effective mod for an N/A motor to be in the 13's?

It has been answered multiple times = NO.

And ' I am NOT supercharging this car, please refrain from telling me to do it.'

I did not say I'm going to blow thousands of dollars - what should I buy?
As stated, I have a 10 second forced induction street car, I'm not going that route on my Marauder.
My stock LT-1 Formula ran 13.99 at 99mph
My stock LS-1 ran 13.82 at 100mph
My bolt on Marauder will not get spanked much by those numbers.
I'll take all replies as something learned, thanks.

[MMBLUE]

Best is 96-98 Cobra cams as probably posted earlier. Degreeing them is a MUST. Otherwise you risk losing low end torque. What is needed for sleds such as the MM. If you can do the install and degree yourself, then it's worth it. You can get a used set for 200 or so. After purchasing new bolts from Ford another 50 bucks and boda bing your in business.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Blower guys don't blink spending the $3000 for full SW headers/exhaust to gain 25hp, but for an N/A guy to spend it on cams = :lol:.

I believe it was DOOM -a member here- who proved headers on these cars only show significant gains with forced induction.

[chief455]

Best is 96-98 Cobra cams as probably posted earlier. Degreeing them is a MUST. Otherwise you risk losing low end torque. What is needed for sleds such as the MM. If you can do the install and degree yourself, then it's worth it. You can get a used set for 200 or so. After purchasing new bolts from Ford another 50 bucks and boda bing your in business.
Gotcha. I was told my engine has 98 Cobra intake cams installed.
I might prep for a degree job, verify the Cobra cams are in there, and advance tham appropriately.

I've come to realize this is very similar to asking ' should I put a Crane cam in my 289 powered '68 LTD 4 door?'
Everyone would say 'put a 390 or 428 in it!!'

The 4.6l is just too small an air pump (engine) to expect more lift/duration to make substantial torque gains needed to move such weight.

[chief455]

I believe it was DOOM -a member here- who proved headers on these cars only show significant gains with forced induction.
I would believe that. At 4.6l and the low flowing heads/small stock cams probaly aren't that restricted by exhaust manifolds. Add +50% more airflow from forced induction - now you need to get that air out.

[babbage]

Don't most guys with S/C have headers, convertor, tuning, gears etc also? The forced induction does not negate the cost of these supporting mods, it adds cost to them. To make much more power, I get it.

Blower guys don't blink spending the $3000 for full SW headers/exhaust to gain 25hp, but for an N/A guy to spend it on cams = :lol:

What most members that replied are failing to read from my original post is 'are cams a cost effective mod for an N/A motor to be in the 13's?

It has been answered multiple times = NO.

And ' I am NOT supercharging this car, please refrain from telling me to do it.'

I did not say I'm going to blow thousands of dollars - what should I buy?
As stated, I have a 10 second forced induction street car, I'm not going that route on my Marauder.
My stock LT-1 Formula ran 13.99 at 99mph
My stock LS-1 ran 13.82 at 100mph
My bolt on Marauder will not get spanked much by those numbers.
I'll take all replies as something learned, thanks.

Again YES used cobra cams 96-98 are worth a good bump in power. Cost is around $300. You gain 15hp If I remember correctly.

SW Headers with CATS (MAUCAT) = $1500 - you dont need (or want full the system)

Cobra Cams, SW (Maucat), Dyno Tune, 4.10 Gears, Converter = faster than your Chevy cars. Probably 13.6 E/T and one Hell of a lot of fun to drive.
:burnout:

[babbage]

I believe it was DOOM -a member here- who proved headers on these cars only show significant gains with forced induction.

Um that's BS.

Doom gained 50 HP SC. N/A Gains with SW headers are around 25HP N/A. Multiple MM's with similar results.

[MOTOWN]

I would believe that. At 4.6l and the low flowing heads/small stock cams probaly aren't that restricted by exhaust manifolds. Add +50% more airflow from forced induction - now you need to get that air out.

Low flowing heads? Are you serious:confused:

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Um that's BS.

Doom gained 50 HP SC. N/A Gains with SW headers are around 25HP N/A. Multiple MM's with similar results.

Twice the power added over an NA is not significant for you?

The way I see it, you're buying the headers for the sound and because you have the coin if the car is NA..not for the measly 25 horse.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Low flowing heads? Are you serious:confused:

Ever heard of the cooling mod :confused:

[babbage]

I have all of this on my Marauder minus the converter....still not even close to quick enough. My stock Camaro SS would spank the **** out of my Marauder. So if I had to take a guess you will be searching for forced induction in your future. I know you are asking about cams but from everything I have seen money is better spent in another department. You mention that you can't afford to supercharge but by the time you buy a set of SW headers and exhaust (have you priced this? Must be made from diamonds) along with cams, tuning, and install it seems you will be spending more than an eaton swap anyhow. But hey its your money and I won't tell you how to spend it. :twocents:

Do you have any timeslips for your MM??

A good Torque converter is good for 1/2 a second in the quarter. Many have gained 0.5 in the quarter with that mod which is a lot. Also a real dynotune is much better than a mail order tune. With S/C a $500 a real dynotune is required. On N/A tune is optional but to squeeze out all the timing and fuel out of your specific MM a good dynotune is needed.

Also in Texas you need a EMP water pump, rear head cool mod and a 170 Reische T-Stat. Then you can run more timing etc..

[MOTOWN]

Ever heard of the cooling mod :confused:

LMAO! what does a rear cooling mod have to do with how well the heads flow:confused:

As in CFM!

[babbage]

Twice the power added over an NA is not significant for you?

The way I see it, you're buying the headers for the sound and because you have the coin if the car is NA..not for the measly 25 horse.

Um no, you said the only significant gains were S/C
A 25 (Twenty-Five) HP Gain for N/A is very significant.

I got the headers because they don't cost any power - they FREE it up.
AND you get both better power and efficiency (mileage)

Wanna Race? lol

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

LMAO! what does a rear cooling mod have to do with how well the heads flow:confused:

As in CFM!

:lol: I figured since the cooling is shotty, not helping the overall efficiency. But you're right CFM.
:beer:

[MOTOWN]

I do think that every 4V benefits from a rear cooling mod, 7&8 pistons would prolly agree also.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Um no, you said the only significant gains were S/C
A 25 (Twenty-Five) HP Gain for N/A is very significant.

I got the headers because they don't cost any power - they FREE it up.
AND you get both better power and efficiency (mileage)

Wanna Race? lol


I like the mileage increase part. I guess it's kinda like U/D pullies for $400-500 to free up some power. Significant to some, I just don't see the value in it. Big $$$ for 25 hp is tough!

Ok lets race, soon as my car is back up and running from the Eaton swap LOL :banana:

[chief455]

Low flowing heads? Are you serious:confused:
Not extremely - never studied airflow on stock 4.6 4V heads..
General statement - stock heads flow less than something modified which would greatly justify an expensive header install...
I'll read up on this head and it's flow capacity. thanks.

[MOTOWN]

Not extremely - never studied airflow on stock 4.6 4V heads..
General statement - stock heads flow less than something modified which would greatly justify an expensive header install...
I'll read up on this head and it's flow capacity. thanks.

That might be true if this were a small block chevy, or ford push rod engine, totally different ball game, these heads flow very well right out of the box!

much of the conventional V8 wisdom does not apply to the MOD motors:beer:

[chief455]

That might be true if this were a small block chevy, or ford push rod engine, totally different ball game, these heads flow very well right out of the box!

much of the conventional V8 wisdom does not apply to the MOD motors:beer:
I almost don't want to write this, but, that was my gut feeling when I asked if cams would be a good investment. I thought - it's small, but a modern engine - :o I'm learning :beatnik:

[babbage]

I like the mileage increase part. I guess it's kinda like U/D pullies for $400-500 to free up some power. Significant to some, I just don't see the value in it. Big $$$ for 25 hp is tough!

Ok lets race, soon as my car is back up and running from the Eaton swap LOL :banana:


Underdrives- even the fancy fluid filled March 1158 ones I have are only $125 for I think 10-12 HP Gain.

Underdrives 125/10 = $12 per HP <---- Best Value! lol

SW HEADERS 1430/25 = $57 per HP
EATON WITH DYNOTUNE =$5000/100 = $50 per HP
Not that much more cost per HP.

I'll race you in August when it's 95F+ outside! :evil: I hope your swap goes well.

[clintons4]

The way I see it, you're buying the headers for the sound and because you have the coin if the car is NA..not for the measly 25 horse.

I don't think I really even felt a change other than the sound with the exhaust...anyone dyno before and after NA with just the headers/exhaust?

[MOTOWN]

I almost don't want to write this, but, that was my gut feeling when I asked if cams would be a good investment. I thought - it's small, but a modern engine - :o I'm learning :beatnik:

I feel you on the cam shafts, that lopey idle is extremely addictive, but the return on investment is very slim at best, i wanted a custom ground set, but i just couldnt bring my self to let go of $1,200 stacks:o

[lji372]

Underdrives- even the fancy fluid filled March 1158 ones I have are only $125 for I think 10-12 HP Gain.

Underdrives 125/10 = $12 per HP <---- Best Value! lol

SW HEADERS 1500/25 = $60 per HP
EATON WITH DYNOTUNE =$5000/100 = $50 per HP
Not that much more cost per HP.

I'll race you in August when it's 95F+ outside! :evil: I hope your swap goes well.

But only the eaton gives you the whine candy :lol:

Cost, hmm patience is key.
Sell your ride and buy one done is the best bang for your buck period :banana2:
(Disclaimer-if it's a roots style :D )

[clintons4]

SW Headers with CATS (MAUCAT) = $1500 - you dont need (or want full the system) This is true

Cobra Cams, SW (Maucat), Dyno Tune, 4.10 Gears, Converter = faster than your Chevy cars. Probably 13.6 E/T and one Hell of a lot of fun to drive. Hmmm I guess I need a converter then. Because my Marauder does not feel anything close to my Camaro.
:burnout:

..........in red

[99SVT]

Op, I guess you know what the answer is to your question.

If you have cobra cams in there already, I wouldn't change them out, too much cost and effort, especially if you want to degree it with the engine still in the car. Just do the headers, exhaust, 3000+ stall converter and gears. 4.30's would be best but if you have 4.10, just leave them. The trick is to get the engine into the midrange of the powerband as quickly as possible. These motors make decent power, but they need to get some revs first.

Sent from my C6906 using Tapatalk

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Underdrives- even the fancy fluid filled March 1158 ones I have are only $125 for I think 10-12 HP Gain.

Underdrives 125/10 = $12 per HP <---- Best Value! lol

SW HEADERS 1430/25 = $57 per HP
EATON WITH DYNOTUNE =$5000/100 = $50 per HP
Not that much more cost per HP.

I'll race you in August when it's 95F+ outside! :evil: I hope your swap goes well.

Awesome haven't looked at underdrives in years. Didn't know they were that cheap now compared to metco's back in the day.

Thanks man, hopefully I'm way under that $5k figure though. This crappy weather can't pass soon enough. I am ready for spring.
:beer:

[justbob]

Underdrives- even the fancy fluid filled March 1158 ones I have are only $125 for I think 10-12 HP Gain.

Underdrives 125/10 = $12 per HP <---- Best Value! lol

SW HEADERS 1430/25 = $57 per HP
EATON WITH DYNOTUNE =$5000/100 = $50 per HP
Not that much more cost per HP.

I'll race you in August when it's 95F+ outside! :evil: I hope your swap goes well.

Problem being, your best value under drives left you 10 cars back at the 1/8th mile. :)

I'm into immediate gratification, and it's still never enough. I would drive mine 100% bone stock (like I did for over four years..) before I would ever invest in pullies, CAI, or anything of the like. I'm more patient than easily pleased.



Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[guspech750]

Don't most guys with S/C have headers, convertor, tuning, gears etc also? The forced induction does not negate the cost of these supporting mods, it adds cost to them. To make much more power, I get it.

Blower guys don't blink spending the $3000 for full SW headers/exhaust to gain 25hp, but for an N/A guy to spend it on cams = :lol:

What most members that replied are failing to read from my original post is 'are cams a cost effective mod for an N/A motor to be in the 13's?

It has been answered multiple times = NO.

And ' I am NOT supercharging this car, please refrain from telling me to do it.'

I did not say I'm going to blow thousands of dollars - what should I buy?
As stated, I have a 10 second forced induction street car, I'm not going that route on my Marauder.
My stock LT-1 Formula ran 13.99 at 99mph
My stock LS-1 ran 13.82 at 100mph
My bolt on Marauder will not get spanked much by those numbers.
I'll take all replies as something learned, thanks.

I agree. Lots of S/C owners have a lot of supporting mods.

For myself. I just could not see spending anymore on my stock motor. I did an Eaton swap. Stock exhaust. Dyno tuned 400wrhp and 410rwtq. It only cost me $4,500 for parts and tune. My friend and I did the install. I took my left over cash and bought the 13" Wilwood 6piston kit, Addco sway bars, endlinks, Zac&Mac control arms. I already did the 4.10 gears way prior to those mods. Drives like a ***** ape. :burnout:

I say get yourself the usual MM mods and a set of cams. Who can resist a great sounding set of cams in a bad ass Marauder. Nothing like turning around to see what car is thumping behind me.

Just do it bro.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom

[RubberCtyRauder]

I was new to all these power mods just a short time ago when a member here was selling his Marauder and was selling his uninstalled vortech kit..I bought the kit and 6-7 months later drove it to MO's Speed shop for them to install it, dyno it.. I have factory exhaust..They said save up for an intercooler (this was a non-intercooled kit) before headers or anything..car will make plenty of power with what I have. My engine is stock, trans., rears etc...the kit price was too good to pass up. i don't plan on building a forged internal and all the stuff in this car..I'll save that for my next fun car when I decide that i want a change. The general consensus is around 450 rwhp for stock internals..I have 411 with no intercooler, an intercooler should get me 50 or so more and keep the IAT climbing as fast which in turn, backs out timing.. Sure i would love to have one of these 500+rwhp, show car quality Marauders many of the members have, but I'm not starting over on a car that is hard enough to find parts for.. If I would have only done this 6-8 years ago:lol:

[chief455]

YEAH!!! After a few pages of do this, don't do that preaching - guys are explaing how and why they did what mods, and the resulting power/cost. That is good stuff :banana::banana:

We ALL have a sweet car MARAUDER:beer:

thanks for all the advice. I'll keep learning and mod on :burnout: