PDA

View Full Version : Any experts on pinion angles?



justbob
02-17-2014, 06:28 AM
I think mine is well within the limits but before I throw any more money at this car I am wanting to confirm. My trans is -4* driveshaft around -1* and the pinion is right at +2*. The working angle I believe would be -4* minus -1* equalling -3* front ujoint, and the rear being +2* plus +1* equalling +1*

I have read up on soooo many conflicting ways of setting this properly! I am to understand I am looking for matching - and + numbers first, then factor in -1* to -2 1/2* at the rear for torque to raise the pinion in four link applications. That science would put me dead nuts where it should be.

My trans output shaft is dead on within an 1/8" of stock, ujoints are 2 1/2" farther apart, but overall driveshaft length is a tad shorter. (No slip joint/flange to flange application)

I have talked to Rick at Metco (before digging in in my angles) and he suggested look into this and also an upgrade to Delrin bushings may be in order as the manual is simply too hard on the regular ones.

I'm limited on trans adjustment as it will only raise 1/8" and I'm hitting the tunnel, but I am not opposed to sending out the upper arms to be made adjustable. Still not seeing the need though.

I think all my problems would be solved using the GT500 CV shaft offered by DSS. They quoted me around $850 for the aluminum but in my set up critical speed limited to around 130 or their carbon fiber for $1,450 critical speed around 190 MPH. Keep in mind I would like to enter the Chicago 1/2 mile someday, part of the reason I chose a six speed and set this car up the way I have. BUT right now is not the best time financially for all this as I have made too many big purchases lately, Christmas bills, and was slow at work the last six weeks. So I may have to put this in hold for a spell, the car is just fine up to 70 as is. DSS assured me just going to aluminum would put a stop to most vibrations, but also insisted I check my angles.

If you can offer assistance then I'm all ears.

Things you should know.

The car and shaft can take ridiculous amounts of torque off the line or at speed.

It always starts vibrating on new shafts around 80 to 105 under WOT, then worsens over time, so more speed related.

First shaft lasted the longest and Srg Mac hit 122 with zero problems. I hit 100 a few times, 115 at the track first run, shattered it in half and threw parts at the new M3 as I passed in third at 90. :D

Second shaft didn't feel right at 80, had a different shop balance it. On the way to Atlanta I hit 105 and caused another vibration at anything over 80, had realigned yet again in Atlanta and can feel it at 70 now, actually the car felt different after they did it at all speeds.. I did watch them and it looked good to me, but I know squat..

I think half my battle is dealing with cromoly steel and rotational mass?

Hopefully that gives enough info, thanks again.




Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

Pat
02-17-2014, 06:54 AM
I think DR had a thread on drive shaft dynamics some years ago. His point was that vibrations in the drive shaft were induced by the material not the balance.

Otherwise I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.

gnxtc2
02-17-2014, 07:58 AM
What do need to know?

The working angle you have is 2*. Under acceleration, the pinion rotates up which in theory makes the working angle 0*. But at cruising, it'll probably be around 1*.

You need to pay attention how you set up the angle at rest. Rubber, poly and solid bushings in the control arm all need to be set up difference. The softer the bushing, the more the pinion is going to rotate thus needing more angle at rest. You have to determine where the car is going to be most used: cruising, drag, etc, etc.

In theory, you want the angle to be 0* but you don't want to cruise at 0*. At 0*, the needles in the u-joint will never rotate and brunnel.

Your car being stick, introduces alot of shock at the shift. Rick at Metco (who I know personally) is correct going with a harder bushing. I will also suggest a "traction" bar to help control the twisting motion of the pinion.


Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

RF Overlord
02-17-2014, 08:09 AM
Send PMs to Zack and SergntMac...they developed the Z&M rear control arms and I know there was quite a bit of discussion about pinion angle. They may be able to help.

Zack
02-17-2014, 08:13 AM
My suggestion is to take it to a chassis shop and let them measure it and give you advice.

Go to this guy:

http://www.sschassis.com/

He's close to you and a genius

Blown3.8
02-17-2014, 09:12 AM
Get an aluminum shaft. I fought and fought a steel shaft that would go to 100mph before vib'ing. I was just looking at this on yellowbullet. Someone posted a link I'll see if I can find it.

Blown3.8
02-17-2014, 09:15 AM
Here ya go. Nice visual. http://www.rosslertrans.com/Pinion%20Angle.htm

EMAS
02-17-2014, 10:07 AM
What do need to know?

The working angle you have is 2*. Under acceleration, the pinion rotates up which in theory makes the working angle 0*. But at cruising, it'll probably be around 1*.

You need to pay attention how you set up the angle at rest. Rubber, poly and solid bushings in the control arm all need to be set up difference. The softer the bushing, the more the pinion is going to rotate thus needing more angle at rest. You have to determine where the car is going to be most used: cruising, drag, etc, etc.

In theory, you want the angle to be 0* but you don't want to cruise at 0*. At 0*, the needles in the u-joint will never rotate and brunnel.

Your car being stick, introduces alot of shock at the shift. Rick at Metco (who I know personally) is correct going with a harder bushing. I will also suggest a "traction" bar to help control the twisting motion of the pinion.


Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

You do want the difference in angle between the trans and pinion to be as close as possible to zero. What you don't want is the angle between the drive shaft and trans or pinion to be zero.

justbob
02-18-2014, 06:21 AM
Thanks everyone, looks like bushings is a no brainer. As for a track bar, not sure on how that would work with this suspension? I'd like to look further into that.

Thanks for the link Chris, that is one of the many I have seen, just so many different point of views, hence why I started the thread as I don't very often, hoping to learn on a more personal level.

Zack, I probably will consult him, but not till summer as transporting and money would both be difficult right now.

So am I right with the numbers supplied that I am at least in spec? More or less I need to concentrate on stabilizing the pinion? Like I said, this is more of a speed related issue as launch is holding up better than expected so far.

Thanks everyone.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

lifespeed
02-18-2014, 10:13 PM
I think half my battle is dealing with cromoly steel and rotational mass?

You have a steel driveshaft? While strong, steel is flexible and heavy. Probably not helpful with the whole critical speed resonant frequency issue. My guess is a good aluminum driveshaft would make your vibration problem acceptable until you hit low 100 MPH range with the 4.10 gears. But you have an ultimate strength issue too? You may be getting into the coffin corner of long driveline, high shaft RPM (4.10 gears) and high torque that require a heroic solution.

The transmission shaft is supposed to be parallel to the pinion (compromised over the range of bushing flex), and as EMAS said, both at a small angle to the driveshaft.

I never understood why Metco didn't just put Delrin in all their bushings. Flexible bushings are required for most rear control arms when they don't rotate in-plane. But isn't that the beauty of the 2003+ Panther rear? The rear control arms rotate in the same plane and don't require the bushings to flex. :confused:

I don't understand the traction bar comment. One thing these cars have is a decent rear suspension design (wimpy control arm sheetmetal excepted).

guspech750
02-18-2014, 10:30 PM
Hey Bob. Have you given any thought to a two piece drive shaft like on the M5's and such? I have to believe with the long length of those cars, there might be something to look into bud.


Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

DTR + 4.10's + Eaton swap = Wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom