View Full Version : More BS Alternator issues I cant figure out
At my wits end now, and its really pissing me off.
Reference first post here:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93121
Had the alternator re-done and the issues it had are gone.
But, it still only makes 12.7 volts.
If I turn all the accessories on it still makes about the same...12.4-12.7
I took the alternator harness off the car and bench tested it....pass.
So, its definitely the car causing this problem.
The owner insists the volt gauge read 14v before bringing it to me.
The tune in the car is the same I've given 10 other members doing an eaton swap, as well as my own customers. I know that's fine.
From the advice of my friend at Ford, I blipped the throttle to WOT from idle and datalogged. Doing this should send the alternator into full field. However, the voltage stayed the same.
(yes the alternator is programmed to stay on at WOT)
The only wiring I touched was IAC, TPS, EGR and MAF. All of them are reporting properly via datalogging. And there are no engine codes.
The engine runs good and makes 20in of vacuum.
Since I don't have a wave form tool, I can't monitor if the pcm is talking to the alternator and telling it to make volts.
This is so frustrating and its now cutting into my life and wallet.
I have no clue as to how I should proceed. :bigcry:
martyo
05-06-2014, 07:22 PM
You probably let a small amount of the magic smoke out of the PCM. Not all of it, just a small portion of it. Now all you have to do is stuff it back in the PCM.
justbob
05-06-2014, 07:27 PM
Has the new battery been bench tested?
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
Has the new battery been bench tested?
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
Nope. Maybe Ill do that
Just swapped batteries. Nope.
As a final test, Ill find a pcm to swap.
You probably let a small amount of the magic smoke out of the PCM. Not all of it, just a small portion of it. Now all you have to do is stuff it back in the PCM.
You're cute.
It is pointing to that, but I just can't understand why.
lji372
05-06-2014, 07:55 PM
You're cute.
It is pointing to that, but I just can't understand why.
It's getting late, I hear Becky calling :banana2:
It's getting late, I hear Becky calling :banana2:
*** you D eating DE LOL
8UWITH6
05-06-2014, 07:57 PM
Cars suck. Hope you find your problem. I have nothing to add except the magic smoke concept........ because I am sure you have checked and double checked everying..........good luck and keep us posted.
lji372
05-06-2014, 07:58 PM
*** you D eating DE LOL
Hey, I have another spare alternator. Need to borrow it :D
hotford
05-06-2014, 07:58 PM
Really weird, look at the terminals at the alternator, what is the voltage output at the alt?, check for voltage drop, ie battery terminal wiring may have a green monster, also check the battery ground cable the little one that needs to be grounded really good.
Really weird, look at the terminals at the alternator, what is the voltage out out at the alt?, check for voltage drop, ie battery terminal wiring may have a green monster, also check the battery ground cable the little one that needs to be grounded really good.
Its all new, and crimped/soldered by yours truly.
Motorhead350
05-06-2014, 08:03 PM
You cannot handle a modified Marauder. Return to stock. LOL
8UWITH6
05-06-2014, 08:15 PM
Stupid question......... did you check for a draw on the system while everything is off?????? Worth checking if you havent already.
captain
05-06-2014, 08:28 PM
In my tiny world I have found 2 things...
Not all new stuff works
Not everything sends data even when malfunctioning.
simplest thing is to reinstall the 4 new parts (one at a time) with old one and rerun the analysis...4 times. They are super easy parts and it would potentially eliminate that.
Cant hurt. Unless you bang your knuckles on the EGR.
I have looked over the wiring, and swapped in a different alternator from my own car. Same stuff happens. It's not the parts
I'll pull the PCM harness tomorrow and check continuity from the pigtail to the PCM connector.
I 'suppose' the plenum could have been tightened down over the wiring harness without my knowledge, (causing a break) but highly unlikely. I'll check that too
MOTOWN
05-06-2014, 10:01 PM
Just swapped batteries. Nope.
As a final test, Ill find a pcm to swap.
This is my initial thought on the problem, interested in seeing if the PCM is at fault.
martyo
05-06-2014, 11:46 PM
You're cute.
It is pointing to that, but I just can't understand why.
Wasn't it you who said the alternator was putting out close to 18 v.? That is close to the threshold for magic smoke.
If you do swap the PCM, don't forget about your friends named PATS.
martyo
05-06-2014, 11:47 PM
I'll pull the PCM harness tomorrow and check continuity from the pigtail to the PCM connector.
I 'suppose' the plenum could have been tightened down over the wiring harness without my knowledge, (causing a break) but highly unlikely. I'll check that too
Do you have access to a WDS?
Marauderjack
05-07-2014, 02:45 AM
Are you checking voltage at the alternator or with the gauge pod voltmeter??:confused:
Subscribing!!:cool:
justbob
05-07-2014, 04:13 AM
Doesn't the alt. have (two) inline fusible links? Could one have blown or shorted?
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
Limited360
05-07-2014, 04:46 AM
If the magic smoke came out of the PCM via 18V I am sure it wouldn't be running at 20" of vacuum...
You don't have an O-scope? Come on!!!
My guess is that something is not right with the commanded PWM signal. Definitely pin that harness to the PCM and see if there is an issue there.
martyo
05-07-2014, 05:11 AM
If the magic smoke came out of the PCM via 18V I am sure it wouldn't be running at 20" of vacuum...
¿Qué?
.......
Limited360
05-07-2014, 05:15 AM
¿Qué?
.......
Someone suggested the 18V smoked the ECU... maybe just for the alternator control? who knows...
My thoughts would be if 18V smoked the ECU there would be more issues present. Plus I do believe there is built in protection for this (inline fuses) however Zack states these are fine
martyo
05-07-2014, 05:20 AM
Someone suggested the 18V smoked the ECU... maybe just for the alternator control? who knows...
That person suggested that he only let some of the smoke out - not all of it.
My thoughts would be if 18V smoked the ECU there would be more issues present. Plus I do believe there is built in protection for this (inline fuses) however Zack states these are fine
Unfortunately it is not that simple.
Limited360
05-07-2014, 05:29 AM
That person suggested that he only let some of the smoke out - not all of it.
Unfortunately it is not that simple.
Just some of the smoke? hmmmm like frying the 5v signal feed? Should have faults, Zack stated no issues as of now on that front.
18V should be fine on the ECU for a short period of time, not long period. Regardless pin that S#!T out!
captain
05-07-2014, 05:31 AM
I have a perfectly good PCM with a single matching key. You are welcome to try it.
Spectragod
05-07-2014, 05:51 AM
You said that the alternator is putting out 12.xx volts both at idle and under load, do both alternators do the same thing? If so, you will need to Ohm out the wiring and grounds, as I would tend to lean towards a wiring issue as opposed to a PCM, with a fleet of 100+ police cars, I have hardly ever seen a charging problem related to the PCM, but I have seen plenty of wire that was green on the inside.
And, a load of bad (electrically) connections. Hell, I had one car that was acting flaky, it turned out to have a 70 Ohm difference in the ground from the engine compartment to the interior.
They suck to chase down, but a good DVOM will help you through the mess.
The factory alternator cable (with the fusible links) was removed by the owner long ago. It has a 4 ga wire hooked directly to the battery.
Did it put out 18v for a short time??? Honestly I dont know. The gauge did not peg and I wasn't datalogging at the time. Could have been 16v
I know this: I have loaded this tune into 10 cars and they all run perfect. This one will idle nice, but bog heavily under load. All monitors are working fine, as well as sensors.
I am confident my wiring extension to the alternator is perfect. I've removed it and bench tested it!
I will check the Gen-Com wire tonight and swap PCM's if I have to. After that I'm done.
I cant think of anything I did that could cause this.
Since the alternator did not work from the moment I started the car after the swap, there is a high probablility that the alternator itself sent some kind of killshot to the pcm.....thats the only thing that makes some sort of sense.
Zack we found a bad wire between alt and PCM on my car. Ran a new wire and it cleared up!
Ill test that wire tonight. Im armed with all the pinouts.
Im gonna miss the opening night of the weekly car show.
GRRRRR
a_d_a_m
05-07-2014, 02:16 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ctanoxBZ_6c/UFHTkVAzChI/AAAAAAAAAsE/KMdA7CALgr0/s1600/you+can+do+it.jpg
New PCM downloading now. Wiring checked out all the way to the bulkhead connector.
lji372
05-07-2014, 03:08 PM
Well..... We're waiting......
:popcorn:
Hope it works man
Curless
05-07-2014, 03:11 PM
Yes, we are waiting....
lji372
05-07-2014, 03:14 PM
Yes, we are waiting....
Is it gonna be a boy or a girl I wonder......
:popcorn:
Curless
05-07-2014, 03:16 PM
Is it gonna be a boy or a girl I wonder......
:popcorn:
We should know in 9 months!
lji372
05-07-2014, 03:17 PM
We should know in 9 months!
You mean 7 1/2 :eek:
:wave: zack
Curless
05-07-2014, 03:22 PM
You mean 7 1/2 :eek:
:wave: zack
LMAO!!!!!!! Hey, I pulled out!
Curless
05-07-2014, 03:31 PM
Bueller....Bueller?
Curless
05-07-2014, 03:34 PM
calling you now
martyo
05-07-2014, 04:10 PM
calling you now
That's cheating. LOL
Officially defeated.
He's coming to get it tomorrow.
I can turn every single accessory on and the voltage will only drop to 12.5...from 12.6
Wtf
Curless
05-07-2014, 05:15 PM
Hmmm....yeah, I got nothing....
lji372
05-07-2014, 05:18 PM
That's cheating. LOL
That's what I'm thinking too.
Curless! Now I have a lawyer agreeing your cheating on me!!!!!!
justbob
05-07-2014, 05:26 PM
Is there any chance something is draining WAY too much all of the time? It would almost have to be a sub and amp I'd think. Does he have a stereo system that you could take off line?
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
justbob
05-07-2014, 05:28 PM
If he does, see if he has a capacitor that might be robbing all the extra juice.
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
The power wire to all that is not connected to the battery
justbob
05-07-2014, 05:40 PM
Sorry brother. I know your giving up, but I'll keep thinking on this end.
Something I've never tried before. Testing the alt output with the battery wire disconnected? (Nothing to draw) I'm stretching here..
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
WhatsUpDOHC
05-07-2014, 05:44 PM
Not pretending to know what Zack, JB and others know about these cars but could it be a grounding/ground strap issue?
RF Overlord
05-07-2014, 05:45 PM
Zack, this is a long shot, but is it possible the voltmeter you're using is bad?
I have done everything.
I've ripped all my harnesses apart....twice.
I've swapped alternators. I've verified continuity from the alrernator pigtail to the PCM.
I've swapped pcm's
I've checked fuses. The battery light is not on when the engine runs, but the light works
And yes my voltmeter is fine
Loco1234
05-07-2014, 06:16 PM
I would think if the alternator check out in both directions at the shop then problem from car side...
The security/auto starter systems can cause phantom drains... problem may lie there...
martyo
05-07-2014, 08:18 PM
Officially defeated.
He's coming to get it tomorrow.
I can turn every single accessory on and the voltage will only drop to 12.5...from 12.6
Wtf
Dammit man!
Dammit man!
I can't find anyone to give me a lead, or advice, or a similar experience.
Lemme guess....it needs a brand new Alternator to fix this right?
Trust me I'm mentally exhausted from all this
Blackened300a
05-07-2014, 10:40 PM
I have done everything.
I've ripped all my harnesses apart....twice.
I've swapped alternators. I've verified continuity from the alrernator pigtail to the PCM.
I've swapped pcm's
I've checked fuses. The battery light is not on when the engine runs, but the light works
And yes my voltmeter is fine
I would be checking voltage draw. I'm thinking the alternator is under a heavy load.
^^^what he said^^^
An induction type ammeter could tell you if your drawing a load with systems off and car running. Results could be compared to your maruder. Since no fuses are reported blown the draw would be associated with an a high amperage circuit.
If there is a draw then start pulling fuses until........
You could rent the ammeter or maybe someone you know has one.
martyo
05-08-2014, 05:17 AM
I can't find anyone to give me a lead, or advice, or a similar experience.
Lemme guess....it needs a brand new Alternator to fix this right?
Trust me I'm mentally exhausted from all this
This takes the fun out of it that is for sure.
Do you want to speak with Jeff? He is a pretty good diagnostician and even worked on a Marauder once.
Curless
05-08-2014, 05:50 AM
Spent an hour with Zack on the phone last night....the man has tried everything. Remember he has 3 cars of his own to compare this one too and he can swap parts (battery / alternator) back and forth....which he has done. The issue is in the car...now to find it.
martyo
05-08-2014, 05:56 AM
The issue is in the car...
They usually are.....
RubberCtyRauder
05-08-2014, 06:00 AM
I'm just throwin this out there only becasue I've seen it be part of an electrical gremlin before. Does the car have any aftermarket stereo, amps etc wired in?
I'm just throwin this out there only becasue I've seen it be part of an electrical gremlin before. Does the car have any aftermarket stereo, amps etc wired in?
Already answered this Q above
I have removed the battery cable from the alternator output post and voltage does not change. So that Theory of amperage draw can be thrown right out the window
RubberCtyRauder
05-08-2014, 07:08 AM
Already answered this Q above
Sorry, didn't see the post about it
martyo
05-08-2014, 07:58 AM
Sorry, didn't see the post about it
Ity is okay, but you will be banned for 30 days. I hope to hear from you after that!
RubberCtyRauder
05-08-2014, 08:02 AM
Ity is okay, but you will be banned for 30 days. I hope to hear from you after that!
From the desk of Mark's aka RubberCtyRauder's attorney:
You'll be hearing from my attorney and Dennis might stop buy to help with my car..................part out.LOL
now back to Zack's dilemma of the electrical gremlin
Im pondering making a lengthy harness that runs from my engine harness over to the other car's alternator.
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-08-2014, 08:38 AM
Low mile, supercharged Marauder for sale, never raced, modified or abused, only needs new alternator.. $30k firm or bidding starts at $8.00.
:D
martyo
05-08-2014, 08:57 AM
Im pondering making a lengthy harness that runs from my engine harness over to the other car's alternator.
If you don't post pictures of that, I will personally ask mary to ban you. AGAIN.
lji372
05-08-2014, 09:07 AM
Im pondering making a lengthy harness that runs from my engine harness over to the other car's alternator.
now that there is determination!!!!!
something tells me he's gonna do it:bows:
martyo
05-08-2014, 09:29 AM
now that there is determination!!!!!
It will make us rednecks proud!
TooManyFords
05-08-2014, 09:58 AM
Ok, so if you hook a pair of jumper cables from a running car to this one, does the voltage go UP on the suspect car or go DOWN on the car you are jumping from?
TooManyFords
05-08-2014, 10:00 AM
You could even disconnect the alternator for this test and see if the car then registers 13.7+ volts from the car you car jumping from.
sflrainmaker01
05-08-2014, 10:00 AM
I think this might have already been mentioned but what about trying a NEW alternator just to see if it's not something internal (like a diode) that is not showing up as a problem...yet....
I think this might have already been mentioned but what about trying a NEW alternator just to see if it's not something internal (like a diode) that is not showing up as a problem...yet....
I dunno, maybe because its $380?
And I took my known good one off my own car and it does the same thing.
Its NOT the alternator
Ok, so if you hook a pair of jumper cables from a running car to this one, does the voltage go UP on the suspect car or go DOWN on the car you are jumping from?
You could even disconnect the alternator for this test and see if the car then registers 13.7+ volts from the car you car jumping from.
That's actually brilliant.
However, it still wont tell me whats causing the problem.
The extension of the wiring harness is the only definitive way of knowing if the wiring from the alternator to the pcm is bad. (but is tested good)
WTF
TooManyFords
05-08-2014, 10:38 AM
It will tell you if it is the alternator or not.
And yes, I am brilliant.
Have you checked the resistance from the case of the alt to the frame? Should be close to 0 ohms. You probably have already, but it could be the "master" ground connection could be compromised somewhat and would be prohibiting voltage output of the alt. Also you can check current drain with everything off by measuring current with your meter by placing it inline with one of the battery terminals to see if there is something draining abnormally high. If there is current being drained, and if over 10A, you will probably have to put some resistors inline with your meter as most hand held multimeters only can take up to 10A or so (could fry it if there is no fuse protection in the meter).
Wags
Ive already ran a wire from the alternator case directly to ground.
NOPE
massacre
05-08-2014, 11:10 AM
Wow man sorry to hear this, hope you get it figured out soon.
Anything that I would have recommended, you have already tried. I'll run it by some of the the old timers I know, they are usually good for a couple remedies.
One other thing I can think of, but you probably have already checked, is the connection on the starter. I have seen this on one other car years ago that had the same symptoms as yours. Alt checked fine, bat checked fine, still would only output ~12v. Redid the connection for starter and everything was working.
Wags
One other thing I can think of, but you probably have already checked, is the connection on the starter. I have seen this on one other car years ago that had the same symptoms as yours. Alt checked fine, bat checked fine, still would only output ~12v. Redid the connection for starter and everything was working.
Wags
Thats an odd one, but this car has sat outside since new.
I can disconnect it from the fuse box and see what happens.
The beauty of finding the problem (and it not being my fault)
Is I can charge for all these hours!!!
RF Overlord
05-08-2014, 12:05 PM
When did you become a lawyer? :D
martyo
05-08-2014, 12:51 PM
The beauty of finding the problem (and it not being my fault)
Is I can charge for all these hours!!!
So you get to bill for your time spent on the internet too??? :P
So you get to bill for your time spent on the internet too??? :P
I bill my real job for that. :eek:
martyo
05-08-2014, 01:30 PM
I bill my real job for that. :eek:
I am all about that!!! :cool:
lji372
05-08-2014, 03:19 PM
I am all about that!!! :cool:
:wave: Jeff! :D
1stMerc
05-08-2014, 04:38 PM
Subscribing
Well, the car is gone.
I made the harness from one car to the other and that didn't work. The alternator on the eaton car didn't even turn on.
Then I hooked the jumper cables up and was totally confused with the results:
On my cars side it read 13.6
On his cars side it read 12.5
Seriously wtf
martyo
05-08-2014, 06:26 PM
Well, the car is gone.
I made the harness from one car to the other and that didn't work. The alternator on the eaton car didn't even turn on.
Then I hooked the jumper cables up and was totally confused with the results:
On my cars side it read 13.6
On his cars side it read 12.5
Seriously wtf
You surrendered?
You surrendered?
I did and I feel terrible about it.
He got home and the alternator quit.
Gonna cry
lji372
05-08-2014, 07:56 PM
I did and I feel terrible about it.
He got home and the alternator quit.
Gonna cry
I'll hold you......
From behind :D
tbone
05-08-2014, 08:01 PM
Electronic gremlins are the hardest thing to figure out. We just took a GM buyback in on a 2014 Impala that had them that they couldn't figure out. Now it's a 10,000 mile, 3500 pound paper weight.
Blackened300a
05-09-2014, 12:15 AM
What fuel pump you install for the eaton swap? Boost a pump? Intercooler pump? These are pretty much the big voltage draw items. Possible any of these are defective?
What fuel pump you install for the eaton swap? Boost a pump? Intercooler pump? These are pretty much the big voltage draw items. Possible any of these are defective?
The problems were happening before the fuel pump install. (Did that after the car was running)
I disconnected the IC pump and everything else....to no avail
TooManyFords
05-09-2014, 04:51 AM
If if didn't drag the known good car down to 12.5, I would say it was grounding issues. somewhere on that car are bad ground straps. This causes excessive current and blows things out like PCMs, alternators etc.
justbob
05-09-2014, 05:50 AM
How was the rear ground strap homie? Only ask because my car is super clean and has always been garage kept and it was pretty green last year.
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
How was the rear ground strap homie? Only ask because my car is super clean and has always been garage kept and it was pretty green last year.
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
It looked ok. Its hooked up in the back.
I also made a 6 ga ground wire directly from the battery to the drivers side fender ground location (right next to the vacuum reservoir)
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-09-2014, 06:55 AM
For those that don't know, this is my car.
Zack did a fantastic job with how quick and clean the install is. I drove it back with almost no problems.. A couple of decent throttles on the hwy(merging, etc - non WOT) then a massive bogging down(no reaction to gas pedal) to the point I had to stop the car, it drove fine after stopping without even shutting it off. After I let it cool down at a gas station, several codes came up, generator, coils and lean code. By the time I got home the in car volt meter read slightly under 12 whereas it was reading above 12 when leaving Zack's.
The bogging down may or may not be related to the voltage problem so first things first. I will do some digging but will probably end up buying a db electrical new alternator.
Co1207- Fabc1
05-09-2014, 09:00 AM
Hmmmm battery has short internally. my mazda had similar problem it happen to be battery it had short internali i swept battery from mercury and. It works fine 110 dolars l8 and problems are gone sorry for my bead spelling
Hmmmm battery has short internally. my mazda had similar problem it happen to be battery it had short internali i swept battery from mercury and. It works fine 110 dolars l8 and problems are gone sorry for my bead spelling
We already covered this question in a prior post
Also:
04 Marauders have an alternator fuse, as Curless told me.
The fuse was good.
I removed it and the voltage remained the same.
WTF
Time to start voltage drop tests. It is a good way to track down gremlins. Very easy to do and will eliminate things as you go. Did you try any drop tests yet? Things can look like they are fine, but come to find out they are really high resistive connections and causing problems. Don't assume anything is connected good. Do a voltage drop test on the connections to verify.
Wags
lifespeed
05-09-2014, 11:51 AM
Agreed, check the voltage drop from batt neg to chassis neg as well as pos side.
MOTOWN
05-09-2014, 12:02 PM
Amazing how everyone is an Expert.......on the Internet!
martyo
05-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Amazing how everyone is an Expert.......on the Internet!
Well, I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night! :P
martyo
05-09-2014, 12:19 PM
For those that don't know, this is my car.
Zack did a fantastic job with how quick and clean the install is. I drove it back with almost no problems.. A couple of decent throttles on the hwy(merging, etc - non WOT) then a massive bogging down(no reaction to gas pedal) to the point I had to stop the car, it drove fine after stopping without even shutting it off. After I let it cool down at a gas station, several codes came up, generator, coils and lean code. By the time I got home the in car volt meter read slightly under 12 whereas it was reading above 12 when leaving Zack's.
The bogging down may or may not be related to the voltage problem so first things first. I will do some digging but will probably end up buying a db electrical new alternator.
I am sure that Zack worked hard and did a great job.
These issues are some of the hardest to diagnose and remedy.
Do not drive the car hard until the issue is resolved. Low/no voltahe can cause the car to go lean and then pop.
Spectragod
05-09-2014, 04:59 PM
Amazing how everyone is an Expert.......on the Internet!
I am, your welcome.....:D
While I have never seen this exact issue in any of our panthers, I have had quite a bit of experience with electrical problems in cars that will at times see 100 amp loads at idle, couple that with idling for hours like that and high heat, and you get electrical problems.
I do know that Ford replaced battery harness's in 03/04 CV's due to a similar charging issue. The other thing I would comment on it the apparent use of the gauge in the dash for a measurement, I would recommend no less than a quality dvom, and preferably a calibrated unit at that.
While I don't think it's anything associated with the swap or the work, it is most likely just one of those things that happened at the most Inopportune time. I have seen new and rebuilt parts bad from the box, time after time, so without putting hands on it directly, one can only assume, based on experience or knowledge of the said circuit what the problem is. Fwiw, I have had bad cables, battery and alternator in the same car at the same time, so really, it could be anything.
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-10-2014, 08:03 AM
I am, your welcome.....:D
While I have never seen this exact issue in any of our panthers, I have had quite a bit of experience with electrical problems in cars that will at times see 100 amp loads at idle, couple that with idling for hours like that and high heat, and you get electrical problems.
I do know that Ford replaced battery harness's in 03/04 CV's due to a similar charging issue. The other thing I would comment on it the apparent use of the gauge in the dash for a measurement, I would recommend no less than a quality dvom, and preferably a calibrated unit at that.
While I don't think it's anything associated with the swap or the work, it is most likely just one of those things that happened at the most Inopportune time. I have seen new and rebuilt parts bad from the box, time after time, so without putting hands on it directly, one can only assume, based on experience or knowledge of the said circuit what the problem is. Fwiw, I have had bad cables, battery and alternator in the same car at the same time, so really, it could be anything.
Is it possible a bad coil pack can be causing a massive draw? Although if a bad coil, I would think the engine idling would be misfiring, this one sits nice and quiet at idle.
I wired jumper cables from my other car to this one and it does charge the Eaton car up to about 13.3v (at battery posts and positive post of alternator.) When removing the jumper cable, voltage from alt dips back down to about 12.5v immediately.
sflrainmaker01
05-10-2014, 10:28 AM
Is it possible a bad coil pack can be causing a massive draw? Although if a bad coil, I would think the engine idling would be misfiring, this one sits nice and quiet at idle.
I wired jumper cables from my other car to this one and it does charge the Eaton car up to about 13.3v (at battery posts and positive post of alternator.) When removing the jumper cable, voltage from alt dips back down to about 12.5v immediately.
I know in the opening post it was suggested that the battery be load tested. Subsequently, I read that the battery was swapped as a test. Maybe, the battery should be LOAD tested. It's usually free and might just be a quick "rule the battery out" test. I, too, have seen some weirdo things happen that are seemingly impossible to diagnose, that turn out to be something simple.
Curless
05-10-2014, 10:57 AM
He had three cars in his driveway to swap parts from, battery, alternator, wiring, use his good car to test the "bad" cars components... take readings (with a DVOM not just the factory gauge) from his cars and then compare them to the bad car.....tis a mystery....
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-10-2014, 11:47 AM
I know in the opening post it was suggested that the battery be load tested. Subsequently, I read that the battery was swapped as a test. Maybe, the battery should be LOAD tested. It's usually free and might just be a quick "rule the battery out" test. I, too, have seen some weirdo things happen that are seemingly impossible to diagnose, that turn out to be something simple.
The battery can be disconnected from the system, the alternator still runs the car at 12.5v no more.
This is far from simple now unless it turns out to be just the alternator. Which was rebuilt with new voltage regulator, load tested fine and tested fine in his car. I don't feel like throwing $250+ down the drain on an un-returnable alternator if I don't have to.
I still feel horrible about this.
I can't think of anything to suggest
lifespeed
05-10-2014, 12:27 PM
I still feel horrible about this.
I can't think of anything to suggest
Don't know if you've tried this yet, but with the car running try checking for a voltage difference between alternator ground (engine) and chassis ground. Gnd for the PCM would be a good point to test against. This is best done with some current draw so turn on the headlights too.
I know you're going nuts trying to figure this out, but it is not a good idea to remove the battery from the circuit with the alternator running as the voltage can spike, called an "alternator load dump"
Best of luck, you'll get it eventually.
lifespeed
05-10-2014, 12:31 PM
Then I hooked the jumper cables up and was totally confused with the results:
On my cars side it read 13.6
On his cars side it read 12.5
Seriously wtf
I'm voting for a bad ground from engine to chassis. Or somewhere. But I agree it is easy to play armchair technician on the internet.
Edit: One last measurement to prove there isn't an accessory totally loading down the system. Beg, borrow or steal one of those "amp clamp" meters (only some versions do DC) and put it around the battery cable and alternator cable to get a sanity check of the car's total electrical current consumption. It is an easy test if you can get a hold of the fancy meter :confused:
marauder21
05-10-2014, 12:34 PM
I still feel horrible about this.
I can't think of anything to suggest
Knowing you, you're gonna bring yourself down cause of this. Don't! It happens man, you did your best...now chillax! Grab a beer and enjoy this nice day! :)
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-10-2014, 04:18 PM
Don't know if you've tried this yet, but with the car running try checking for a voltage difference between alternator ground (engine) and chassis ground. Gnd for the PCM would be a good point to test against. This is best done with some current draw so turn on the headlights too.
I know you're going nuts trying to figure this out, but it is not a good idea to remove the battery from the circuit with the alternator running as the voltage can spike, called an "alternator load dump"
Best of luck, you'll get it eventually.
Actually this was the first thing I tested. No discrepancy between alternator engine ground and chassis while running.
My ford mechanic buddy was also stumped and when he asked other techs today, they suggested the alternator to be replaced with a clutchless unit as the clutch can be the culprit when spinning in reverse. Hmm...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lifespeed
05-10-2014, 04:32 PM
My ford mechanic buddy was also stumped and when he asked other techs today, they suggested the alternator to be replaced with a clutchless unit as the clutch can be the culprit when spinning in reverse. Hmm...
Doh! . . . . ;)
martyo
05-10-2014, 05:52 PM
Have Zack bring the car to Georgia. I personally guaranty that it will go home fixed and Zack will go hime in no worse mood than he is usually in.
lji372
05-10-2014, 07:17 PM
Have Zack bring the car to Georgia. I personally guaranty that it will go home fixed and Zack will go hime in no worse mood than he is usually in.
:laugh: TRUTH :run:
Actually this was the first thing I tested. No discrepancy between alternator engine ground and chassis while running.
My ford mechanic buddy was also stumped and when he asked other techs today, they suggested the alternator to be replaced with a clutchless unit as the clutch can be the culprit when spinning in reverse. Hmm...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The clutched pulley is sitting in a box in your trunk.
martyo
05-11-2014, 07:04 AM
:laugh: TRUTH :run:
He won't take me up on it but he can eat and sleep here for free. :rolleyes:
Marauderjack
05-11-2014, 07:13 AM
He won't take me up on it but he can eat and sleep here for free. :rolleyes:
You, Sir, are indeed a brave man!!:eek:
lji372
05-11-2014, 09:23 AM
You, Sir, are indeed a brave man!!:eek:
this is truth, you never know when he may climb the walls, fall and begin screwing a lawyer in more ways than one :bunny2:
Blackened300a
05-11-2014, 09:34 AM
Actually this was the first thing I tested. No discrepancy between alternator engine ground and chassis while running.
My ford mechanic buddy was also stumped and when he asked other techs today, they suggested the alternator to be replaced with a clutchless unit as the clutch can be the culprit when spinning in reverse. Hmm...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It wouldn't charge at all, it would just freewheel. Besides, the clutched pulley protrudes out a bit and would likely be digging into your front timing cover with it mounted facing backwards.
martyo
05-11-2014, 10:41 AM
You, Sir, are indeed a brave man!!:eek:
this is truth, you never know when he may climb the walls, fall and begin screwing a lawyer in more ways than one :bunny2:
He was here last fall. He doesn't scare me.
Besides his wife is pretty. So I am reasonably sure he has no interest in a fat old lawyer like me.
lji372
05-11-2014, 11:08 AM
He was here last fall. He doesn't scare me.
Besides his hubby is pretty. So I am reasonably sure he has no interest in a fat old lawyer like me.
fixed!!
you realize he's the wife right :D
martyo
05-11-2014, 11:10 AM
you realize he's the wife right :D
I was trying not to embarrass him.
Curless
05-12-2014, 06:39 AM
I was trying not to embarrass him.
Cause he wouldn't em bare ass you????
martyo
05-12-2014, 03:49 PM
Cause he wouldn't em bare ass you????
Secretly, I kind of hope he would.
lji372
05-12-2014, 04:24 PM
Secretly, I kind of hope he would.
don't click unless you really hope to see it (http://galenf.com/atlanta/orang05.jpg)
martyo
05-12-2014, 04:37 PM
^^^^LMAO^^^^
Green96
05-12-2014, 06:33 PM
I kicked the issue to my eletrical engineer friend. I am at a loss. The only experience I have is with an Expedition with a Walmart battery job. They convinced the little old lady that it needed new harnesses too. they crammed 2 ground wires in a harness made for one. The problem being that most of the harness was painted. It was getting enough intermittent ground to start....sometimes. Back to the issue at hand.
I really have no idea what signals are being sent from the PCM to the alt. Are there multiple singals (I was thinking that there are at least 2), and did you test all of the wires between the alt and the PCM. It really sounds like you are only running on battery. 12.5-12.6 sounds right for a fully charged battery with no load. How long was the drive before it dropped down to 12V and stopped running?
Green96
05-12-2014, 06:38 PM
On a side note, my EE did mention that car electronics are good for load dump voltages of up to around 60V (short burst). His direct quote was something about if 18V fried a car, there would not be very many cars running around.
tbone
05-12-2014, 07:21 PM
I have an aftermarket alternator from Rock Auto. Does it have a clutch in it? I forget the brand but I can look it up.
Christ the prices have skyrocketed. I think I paid $65.00 for mine 2 years ago. Brand new.
martyo
05-12-2014, 07:24 PM
I have an aftermarket alternator from Rock Auto. Does it have a clutch in it? I forget the brand but I can look it up.
I am not sure if this is what you are asking, but the clutch is not internal.
tbone
05-12-2014, 07:25 PM
I am not sure if this is what you are asking, but the clutch is not internal.
Where is it?
martyo
05-12-2014, 07:26 PM
Where is it?
The pulley.
tbone
05-12-2014, 07:52 PM
The pulley.
Oh, so you pull the pulley and replace it when you do the Eaton swap and no issue. Except running in reverse may cause problems.
martyo
05-12-2014, 08:05 PM
Oh, so you pull the pulley and replace it when you do the Eaton swap and no issue. Except running in reverse may cause problems.
Winner winner bunny dinner!!! :bunny3:
tbone
05-12-2014, 08:09 PM
How much does rebuilding one usually cost?
martyo
05-12-2014, 08:12 PM
How much does rebuilding one usually cost?
That is a question for Egg Zack Ary! :D
justbob
05-12-2014, 08:12 PM
Where is it?
The pulley.
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
martyo
05-12-2014, 08:16 PM
The pulley.
The pulley.
Mommy that Bob guy is mimicking me!!!!
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-12-2014, 08:16 PM
I kicked the issue to my eletrical engineer friend. I am at a loss. The only experience I have is with an Expedition with a Walmart battery job. They convinced the little old lady that it needed new harnesses too. they crammed 2 ground wires in a harness made for one. The problem being that most of the harness was painted. It was getting enough intermittent ground to start....sometimes. Back to the issue at hand.
I really have no idea what signals are being sent from the PCM to the alt. Are there multiple singals (I was thinking that there are at least 2), and did you test all of the wires between the alt and the PCM. It really sounds like you are only running on battery. 12.5-12.6 sounds right for a fully charged battery with no load. How long was the drive before it dropped down to 12V and stopped running?
LOL I'm also an EE and think this is weird, especially when parts test fine out of the car and in another car. I wanted to check the PCM signal but my meter's Hz kept jumping around when I would probe the middle lead on the connector and the other to ground. Not sure if it was supposed to have a steady frequency or not..
I think I'm going to be buying an advance auto alternator to test and return if not needed.
Marty I too thought the clutch was internal.
I really hope the problem is found. I think about this constantly and have zero ideas
RF Overlord
05-12-2014, 09:37 PM
Marty I too thought the clutch was internal.Many people assume there is an internal "clutch" because of the ability to turn the alternator off at WOT. This is done by shutting off the field current, not by mechanical means. The clutch in the pulley is a simple overrunning clutch which allows the alternator to free-wheel when the throttle is closed suddenly at high RPM.
lifespeed
05-12-2014, 11:02 PM
Not to ask a dumb question, but the alternator in question (spinning backwards on an Eaton swap) does not have the stock clutched pulley which would just slip in reverse?
martyo
05-13-2014, 01:31 AM
Not to ask a dumb question, but the alternator in question (spinning backwards on an Eaton swap) does not have the stock clutched pulley which would just slip in reverse?
If I m understanding your question correctly, the answer is the stock clutch is removed in the Eaton swap process.
martyo
05-13-2014, 01:33 AM
I think I'm going to be buying an advance auto alternator to test and return if not needed.
I think this is a good idea and a cheap test.
Marty I too thought the clutch was internal.
I'd still let you and Zack come for a visit and test session. :D
pBseSRahN9I
Here is a good video of proper testing.
Start a 5 minutes
justbob
05-13-2014, 04:52 PM
Mommy that Bob guy is mimicking me!!!!
I wanted to be just as important damn it! :D
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
He fixed it.
Running a 4ga wire from the alternator case to the block resulted in 14.4 volts.
Which means the alternator bracket never grounded to the engine.
Of all things.....
I'm glad this case is closed
martyo
05-13-2014, 06:50 PM
He fixed it.
Running a 4ga wire from the alternator case to the block resulted in 14.4 volts.
Which means the alternator bracket never grounded to the engine.
Of all things.....
I'm glad this case is closed
My Mom said you can still come over to my house and play with me and the other kids!
captain
05-13-2014, 07:05 PM
An excellent example of the old days. Problem found, problem solved.
Iowa should get a little credit. He guessed a bad ground, not at the source, but still.
justbob
05-13-2014, 07:44 PM
Wow. Who'd a thunk?
Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.
Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"
tbone
05-13-2014, 08:15 PM
I tore my engine down today. I found the ground wire that splits off from the negative battery terminal and connects in front of the valve cover on the passenger side 1/2 way worn through the 6 ga. wire and it was green with corrosion. I was going to suggest this as a possible suspect. No issues with my car while this was happening.
1stMerc
05-13-2014, 08:19 PM
Hmmm, that begs the question. What is the difference between his alternator bracket and the other ones used in the eaton swap or was a step missed in the install.
Something for future swappers to watch for.
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-13-2014, 08:42 PM
So as Zack said, this fixed the problem immediately - grounding the alternator to the block/negative directly. It was finding the issue that is puzzling as I had tested for voltage drops several times and never saw a significant difference until today when probing different parts of the alternator case. Seems the anodized bracket was to blame.
The interior lights have a bit of a flicker, and when the brake is pressed for example, the voltage gauge spikes down a bit then right back up..but my car has always done this since new (maybe normal?) Just glad this case is closed without having to drop anymore money into the alternator.
Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions. Martyo, thanks for the invitation.
Now onto why the car doesn't run quite right. It hesitates, almost as if flooding the engine when giving the car too much throttle from a low engine speed. I will be installing actual blue cobra injectors just to rule my Ford Racing injectors out of the puzzle and getting a startup dyno shop tune. I hope it's not a coil pack now.
MOTOWN
05-13-2014, 09:38 PM
So as Zack said, this fixed the problem immediately - grounding the alternator to the block/negative directly. It was finding the issue that is puzzling as I had tested for voltage drops several times and never saw a significant difference until today when probing different parts of the alternator case. Seems the anodized bracket was to blame.
The interior lights have a bit of a flicker, and when the brake is pressed for example, the voltage gauge spikes down a bit then right back up..but my car has always done this since new (maybe normal?) Just glad this case is closed without having to drop anymore money into the alternator.
Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions. Martyo, thanks for the invitation.
Now onto why the car doesn't run quite right. It hesitates, almost as if flooding the engine when giving the car too much throttle from a low engine speed. I will be installing actual blue cobra injectors just to rule my Ford Racing injectors out of the puzzle and getting a startup dyno shop tune. I hope it's not a coil pack now.
Sounds like you have a bad coil(s)
CWright
05-14-2014, 03:37 AM
Now onto why the car doesn't run quite right. It hesitates, almost as if flooding the engine when giving the car too much throttle from a low engine speed. I will be installing actual blue cobra injectors just to rule my Ford Racing injectors out of the puzzle and getting a startup dyno shop tune. I hope it's not a coil pack now.
Sounds like you have a bad coil(s)
Your problems with hesitation sound just like what I was getting with mine a few weeks ago. We hooked it up to the Computer at Marty's and found that coils 1,2, and 8 weren't firing right so I replaced them all. I also ran into a little hesitation last week and found the IAC was acting up. We tried to clean it but the problem was still there so we ended up replacing it. Problems have now been solved.
TooManyFords
05-14-2014, 05:14 AM
Bad grounds? I called it. :p
Spectragod
05-14-2014, 05:51 AM
Bad grounds? I called it. :p
As did I, see post 29
tbone
05-14-2014, 08:05 AM
Post a pic!
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-14-2014, 09:01 PM
Big blue OEM cobra injectors fixed everything. Not sure if my black injectors are 24s and the guy on SVTP screwed me, or if they are 39# frpp injectors which needed a dyno tuning. Lesson learned when buying used parts...
Happy to report the car runs like a bad mo fo.:burnout::burnout::burnout:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/HomeyG745i/photo1_zpsc8239b3b.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/HomeyG745i/media/photo1_zpsc8239b3b.jpg.html)
martyo
05-15-2014, 04:28 AM
Big blue OEM cobra injectors fixed everything. Not sure if my black injectors are 24s and the guy on SVTP screwed me, or if they are 39# frpp injectors which needed a dyno tuning. Lesson learned when buying used parts...
Happy to report the car runs like a bad mo fo.:burnout::burnout::burnout:
So you swapped injectors with no retune?
Spectragod
05-15-2014, 04:41 AM
So you swapped injectors with no retune?
Well, Zack originally tuned it for 39 lb injectors, he (Zack) said it didn't run like the rest he had done, the injuctors may have been the answer....
martyo
05-15-2014, 04:46 AM
Well, Zack originally tuned it for 39 lb injectors, he (Zack) said it didn't run like the rest he had done, the injuctors may have been the answer....
I guess his post is confusing me. Nevermind.
martyo
05-15-2014, 04:50 AM
....or if they are 39# frpp injectors which needed a dyno tuning.
When dyno tuning is done, there is no physical change doen to the injector itself. The tune just tells the injector what to do (how much fuel to deliver).
Are you running a wideband on the car?
ChiTownMaraud3r
05-15-2014, 07:01 AM
When dyno tuning is done, there is no physical change doen to the injector itself. The tune just tells the injector what to do (how much fuel to deliver).
Are you running a wideband on the car?
Spectragod is right. Zack's startup tune has ran fine on 10 cars except mine. I naturally swapped out what was most suspicious to me. It might even have been a sticking injector as the car ran good once you feathered to a decent engine speed. But I did get lean bank 1 and 2 codes with easy driving so I figured incorrect injectors or tune.
Wideband goes in Saturday.
martyo
05-15-2014, 07:04 AM
Wideband goes in Saturday.
That'll go a long way toward helping you see where you are at.
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