Wheels vs front caliper size, any options?

[lifespeed]

I guess most of us who have looked into the Marauder brake issues and inadequacies have learned the factory wheels are a limitation when trying to switch to an aftermarket brake kit.

I am currently using a 14/13 four wheel kit, but I am spending way too much time and money maintaining the front brakes. Switching pads on the rears to Porterfield R4S seems to have worked pretty well, so I believe the rear brakes and the corresponding lighter load are a reasonable match. But my opinion is the front brake pad and caliper area are simply inadequate for a car this size. I do, of course, understand why this caliper is on the front of the car (wheel limitations).

So, my question is: what could be done to improve the front brakes if an aftermarket wheel were used? Could a TC 6R caliper with the corresponding large pad be fitted? Would the rear caliper have to be changed to maintain the piston area ratio?

Just wondering what is possible to do to fix the maintenance nightmare that is the current front brake setup. Can't even get 5K miles without needing to resurface the rotors and sand the pads. :(

[fastblackmerc]

You might want to contact Todd at TCE.

I've had his 13" kit installed for 4 or 5 years and am still on the original pads.

The kit fits the stock Marauder wheel using a thin spacer.

Only down side is I had to source a full size spare as the donut spare won't work.

[lifespeed]

I figured posting in the vendor forum was a reasonable enough way to start a discussion on this issue. I have talked to Todd before. What calipers are on your 13" kit?

I don't have a set of the OEM calipers any more for comparison, but I'm pretty sure the FNSL6R radial-mount calipers use a pad that is not any larger than OEM, and may actually be smaller.

I'm almost done with the second set of pads in 17K miles, and have resurfaced the second set of rotors twice already. I'm not making this up!

[fastblackmerc]

I figured posting in the vendor forum was a reasonable enough way to start a discussion on this issue. I have talked to Todd before. What calipers are on your 13" kit?

I don't have a set of the OEM calipers any more for comparison, but I'm pretty sure the FNSL6R radial-mount calipers use a pad that is not any larger than OEM, and may actually be smaller.

I'm almost done with the second set of pads in 17K miles, and have resurfaced the second set of rotors twice already. I'm not making this up!

Calipers on my kit are FNSL6 per the TCE website.

[Mr. Man]

If you were interested in a different wheel perhaps a 20" wheel would open up the possibilities. You may need to fab brackets if you want to use say a Corvette system.

[lifespeed]

If you were interested in a different wheel perhaps a 20" wheel would open up the possibilities. You may need to fab brackets if you want to use say a Corvette system.

My understanding is the biggest issue is axial clearance (caliper to inside edge of wheel spokes). But added radial clearance can't hurt.

[Mr. Man]

Then you'll need to play with offset. Just be sure the wheel can handle the cars weight if moving the offsets

[lifespeed]

Then you'll need to play with offset. Just be sure the wheel can handle the cars weight if moving the offsets

The offset must remain the same, within reason, or the suspension geometry will be wrecked. So a wider wheel is the answer.

[Todd TCE]

A different spoke design is required not so much offset.

[lifespeed]

A different spoke design is required not so much offset.

Have you looked into what would be required to fit a bigger caliper to this setup? I am determined to do whatever is required to address this. I am tired of working on the brakes on this car, I change the brakes more often than I change the oil.

[Todd TCE]

I can do the FNSL6, a W6A, Aero6, and even TC6 if you want. It's all doable for me. At a price. At a fit. There's nothing holding back production.

[lifespeed]

I can do the FNSL6, a W6A, Aero6, and even TC6 if you want. It's all doable for me. At a price. At a fit. There's nothing holding back production.

Would the rears need to change to maintain the correct front/rear torque ratio? Thinking of the TC6 of course and it's larger area, including piston area.

[Todd TCE]

Ideally it would need a 14"+ rear rotor. Possibly same piston area, different calipers and brackets. Front rotors probably 15" with that caliper, won't clear the hat on a 14 I don't believe.

[lifespeed]

Ideally it would need a 14"+ rear rotor. Possibly same piston area, different calipers and brackets. Front rotors probably 15" with that caliper, won't clear the hat on a 14 I don't believe.

OK. Based on past experience I have 4 - 6 months before needing this, we'll talk then. I'll look into wheels in the meanwhile.

[Todd TCE]

I'll be around.

[lifespeed]

Would plain vs slotted rotors have anything to do with this issue? The guy at Porterfield seemed to think slotted would wear better. I may be one of only people running this setup with plain rotors.

[Todd TCE]

Slotted discs will wear the pads quicker yes.

I'm going to go out on a limb here a bit and back to the original post; if the issue is pulsation and the need to resurface/replace the disc that won't change with a different caliper or a different rotor surface.

Here's the part nobody wants to here; it's driver induced. Anybody who's resurfacing the discs on a regular basis is dealing with a heavy pad transfer issue. And that's totally created by braking style. Hot braking with pressure applied and held once stopped.

[lji372]

Never thought of putting it neutral and releasing the brake pedal after a hard stop.
I have never had this issue either though.
At my age (maturity level) I've realized I'd rather make an attempt to time lights than actually need to apply the brake.

[Todd TCE]

Hey, that's good Eco-driving. Good for you! Actually part of a program I'm working here in NY this week for a city gvmt. program to get better mileage.

Bottom of every bleeding and bedding installation page is the notice about cars with automatic transmissions.

[justbob]

Never thought of putting it neutral and releasing the brake pedal after a hard stop.
I have never had this issue either though.
At my age (maturity level) I've realized I'd rather make an attempt to time lights than actually need to apply the brake.


Lol. That's like every light for me! :D

OP you should look into something like the Godspeed Omegas.


Self proclaimed Builder Of Badassery.

Buy it, Break it, Build it BETTER.
"Since 2004"

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

Here's the part nobody wants to here; it's driver induced. Anybody who's resurfacing the discs on a regular basis is dealing with a heavy pad transfer issue. And that's totally created by braking style. Hot braking with pressure applied and held once stopped.

This is the absolutely correct answer. I am such a fanatic car-nut that I bought my own brake lathe. I tend to be hard on brakes and would always "warp" rotors in a short amount of time, but after checking runout on and off the car of my "warped" rotors, and doing a little research, found that I was having uneven pad transfer from my ...great...driving style. Try a different pad formulation. Some pads are more abrasive, some are more adhesive. I find pads that wear hard on rotors work better for me, because they keep the rotors cleaner rather than letting friction material build up, whereas some other pad types that you can see give a lot of friction transfer onto the rotors but are otherwise not abrasive against them, allow me to build up uneven deposits. I like PFC carbon metallic pads, personally (no idea if they are available for this application).

[lifespeed]

Slotted discs will wear the pads quicker yes.

I'm going to go out on a limb here a bit and back to the original post; if the issue is pulsation and the need to resurface/replace the disc that won't change with a different caliper or a different rotor surface.

Here's the part nobody wants to here; it's driver induced. Anybody who's resurfacing the discs on a regular basis is dealing with a heavy pad transfer issue. And that's totally created by braking style. Hot braking with pressure applied and held once stopped.

If the pads are getting hot enough to transfer as I drive to work, there is definitely a problem. But it is not "driving style".

I had a '97 Crown Vic with the '98+ twin-piston brakes and R4S pads for 7 years. Only did the brakes once when I rebuilt the suspension. Never had pad transfer issues. Currently own a 2012 Ford Focus, and had two Honda Civics over the past decade. None of them have pad transfer issues either. So no, I don't believe the driving style theory. What would you think if you were in my position? The Marauder is the only car I have ever owned that had this bad of a brake problem.

I do believe that it is a pad transfer problem, but probably has more to do with a fairly small pad/caliper size for a heavy car. And I did see a significant difference when switching from BP10 to R4S pads, which does support the pad transfer theory. And the rears, which were problematic with BP10 pads appear to be just fine with R4S pads now.

However, the last time around on the fronts after 5K miles I had more of a "record groove" wear issue than pulsing pedal with the R4S pads. So changing the pads did alter the problem, but certainly did not cure it.

I have to call it like I see it. I've driven this car for 80K miles. The stock brakes weren't that great and suffered from pad transfer, but not as bad as the 14" FNSL6R setup. If pad transfer is an issue it needs to be solved in the design of the brake system, not some style of driving that doesn't involve using the brakes in a normal way.

Todd, I think you have great products and do good work. But I think the compromises made to fit the wheel just don't work on this car.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

Minor to moderate "record groove wear" is not a problem if you have no pedal pulsation. More abrasive pads will cause this type of wear and you can still get a lot of miles out of a rotor. The PFC pads I like do groove up the rotors but the benefit of that aggressive of a pad was no pad transfer problems.

[lifespeed]

This is the absolutely correct answer. I am such a fanatic car-nut that I bought my own brake lathe. I tend to be hard on brakes and would always "warp" rotors in a short amount of time, but after checking runout on and off the car of my "warped" rotors, and doing a little research, found that I was having uneven pad transfer from my ...great...driving style. Try a different pad formulation. Some pads are more abrasive, some are more adhesive. I find pads that wear hard on rotors work better for me, because they keep the rotors cleaner rather than letting friction material build up, whereas some other pad types that you can see give a lot of friction transfer onto the rotors but are otherwise not abrasive against them, allow me to build up uneven deposits. I like PFC carbon metallic pads, personally (no idea if they are available for this application).

While this is all true, it is not quite that black and white. It sounds like you're still on original brakes? While I found these to be problematic, the right pads did seem to make maintenance intervals barely acceptable. Unfortunately the service life of the Wilwood setup is much less than half that of the OEM with the perfect pad choice. And yes, choosing different pads can help but there are still issues with the Wilwood setup.

In the end this is not a matter of opinion, but can be proven one way or the other by spending a ton of money on a new brake setup.

Anybody ever see the brakes on a Porsche Panamera? They weigh 4000 lbs (200 lbs less than our cars) and have probably three times the brake pad with the same diameter rotor.

[lifespeed]

Minor to moderate "record groove wear" is not a problem if you have no pedal pulsation. More abrasive pads will cause this type of wear and you can still get a lot of miles out of a rotor. The PFC pads I like do groove up the rotors but the benefit of that aggressive of a pad was no pad transfer problems.

Of course. I didn't change the brakes because of record groove wear. It eventually turned into the same old pulsing rotors.

[lifespeed]

OP you should look into something like the Godspeed Omegas.

Thanks for the tip.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

While this is all true, it is not quite that black and white. It sounds like you're still on original brakes?

I don't have my Marauder anymore, but I have owned a lot of cars and and have had similar brake related experiences w/ them - certain pads don't work well w/ heavy stop and go driving bc of friction material transfer. I just got 10,000 miles on my Infiniti front rotors before they started to chatter. My commute involves a divided highway w/ hills and stoplights. If you can get performance friction carbon metallic pads for your application, they are one I'd personally try before I made bigger changes. For what it's worth. Good luck

[Todd TCE]

Obviously I don't want to create an argument here, only share info in hopes of finding a solution.

However speaking from the parts perspective;

The only difference in this 13 and 14" kit and those on the Impala kit are that when ordered with the six pot that car uses the 20mm thick pad. And I have guys who open track those monsters - same 7416 but 7420 pad (4mm thicker). It's also the same caliper now in FSNL6 new design, that is found on every 13 and many 14" Corvette, Mustang, 350Z and numerous other TCE and Wilwood factory kit.

Going to a caliper such as the W6A will give a greater pad surface area. This combined with the same 1.62/1.12/1.12" bores will net the same brake torque. Even (if we could) use the TC6 caliper with with yet a larger pad...the piston area makes clamping force the same. All of those combos are slightly smaller than that of the stock MM caliper. This is hat firms up the pedal feel and shifts a bit of rear brake bias into the car- something many of the large sedans lack. The loss of clamping forces is made up for by the larger leverage of the rotor and the (optional) higher Cf of a pad. Lastly of course; a bit more pedal effort boosts the force generated.

The only difference here in this vs the others is the narrower 1.10 vs 1.25" wide rotor necessitated by the wheel fit. Clearly tho a wider rotor at low to mid temps won't make a huge difference. The current 13.1 x 1.10 is found on a number of kits I've done over the years. This is the same spec rotor on an SRT4 run on a street course.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/ToddTCE/SRT4/Redrotor.jpg

Clearly the rotor can take the abuse. And yes I get that it's a lighter car but it's more than capable for any dd use it should see with the MM.

Originally these kits shipped with BP20 pads. A far more durable temp range pad. Folks complained of dust, noise and wear rate. We backed that down to the BP10s as a result. Clearly more Cf makes the car happier but not the owner! In fact a more stable pad such as Poly E is what I'd consider..but the noise would probably be too much for most folks. It remains tough to find a one size fits all pad.

I'd try the PFC pads in fact. Can't hurt. But...be certain you scrub the discs a bit with some emery cloth before you fit them. And (!) don't expect to back from them to something else without a cut or replacement- the carbon metallic pads tend to not play well with other compounds.

[justbob]

Sent you a PM instead.

[lifespeed]

Obviously I don't want to create an argument here, only share info in hopes of finding a solution . . .

Thanks for the info. I've got a set of pads on order as it is not clear the R4S are a huge success, at least in the front. I will prepare the rotors first and give pad compound another try before commissioning a whole new brake setup. One way or the other this is going to get fixed.

As for pad squeal I have had reasonable success with caliper grease and anti-squeak shims so far. Not sure if that will work in all cases.

[lifespeed]

After 9,300 miles it is time for new brakes again. The rotors were resurfaced and Porterfield R4S pads sanded at 5,000 miles due to pulsing. They went another 4,300 miles pretty smoothly before completely wearing through the front pads.

So two brake jobs in 10K miles. That is a LOT of maintenance, which is my second biggest complaint. The first is pulsing which when bad enough kills the braking performance and is annoying to boot.

Here is what they looked like in the front. You can see the pads are completely gone, although not metal-to-metal. The rotor surface looks slightly pitted, as if it has been abused. The pad surfaces had small chunks missing out of them. But they have only been used on the street with occasional hard stops. Not enough to get it real hot.

These R4S were 900 deg F pads, while the BP10 were 800 degree pads. A modest improvement in the pad transfer or pulsing was observed with the switch to higher temp pads. At least a step in the right direction but not good enough.

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/brakes/IMG_0436.jpg
Front R4S - pads are completely gone
http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/Marauder_brakes/FNSL6R_front_IMG_0435.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/brakes/IMG_0435.jpg

Front R4S rotor surface showing the appearance of hard use , pitting and heat. But the use was normal driving . . .
http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/Marauder_brakes/FNSL6R_rotor_wear_IMG_0435.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/brakes/IMG_0444.jpg

Front R4S - another view of pad wear
http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/Marauder_brakes/FNSL6R_pad_wear_IMG_0435.jpg


The rear R4S were much better as can be seen by the rotor surface. The pad switch from BP10 to R4S in the rear pretty much eliminated all pad transfer and pulsing issues, and the wear is very good. Probably would go 35K miles. To me this is indication the higher temperature pads are a step in the right direction. But 800F to 900F in the front wasn't enough.

http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/brakes/IMG_0438.jpg
Rear rotor with R4S pads doesn't look so hammered
http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/Marauder_brakes/rear_brakes_R4S_IMG_0437.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/brakes/IMG_0440.jpg
Rear pads are in much better shape
http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/Marauder_brakes/rear_pads_R4S_IMG_0437.jpg

[lifespeed]

As evidence seems to point to higher temperature pads improving the pulsing problem, I ordered a set of Carbotech XP8 pads. This pad compound seems to straddle the fence between street and race compounds, although is officially listed as a "race" compound for dust and noise reasons. With a temperature range of 200F to 1275F, they are safe to drive on the street, yet have a significant temperature margin over the previous R4S 900F pads.

So far I have been very happy with the performance of these pads. Initial bite is outstanding! They have far more grip than either the BP10 or R4S, which required significant pedal effort to haul the car down from speed. Further, both of these pad compounds would increase their coefficient of friction as the pads heated. So one would have to keep track of the rotor temperature in order to know how much pedal pressure to apply. It wasn't difficult, but definitely not consistent.

The XP8 pads bite hard cold, but don't dramatically increase their CF as they heat up. Which is fine as they already have plenty of grip. This makes them a much better-behaved and predictable pad in my view. So far I am very impressed with their performance and like them a lot. However, I have only driven them a few days so have no long term results yet. I am hoping the pulsing problem (most high-maintenance and irritating) will be cured with these pads. The short service life of the front brake pads in this FNSL6R setup is also problematic, but I don't know that I will see an improvement here. If not, a larger caliper, thicker pad and friendly wheel may still be required to get to an acceptable brake service interval. I will report back on my long term experience with this pad compound one way or the other.

These pads do have some downsides:
1) lots of brake dust, although the claim it is non-corrosive.

2) They have made some noise on occasion, although once thoroughly bedded this appeared to go away. The jury is still out on this, although clearly they have potential to be noisy. I did grease the back of the pads and caliper sliding surfaces.

3) I did start to get some pulsing, although that may be too strong of a word. More like alternating strong/stronger braking forces. I suspect the required smooth pad transfer layer had worn off in spots from mild low-temp street use. I re-bedded the pads with a couple hard stops and they are completely smooth again as I roll to a stop. I will note this procedure was completely ineffective at correcting pulsing problems with BP10 or R4S, and was not likely the same issue although it may have felt similar.

Edit: Here is a picture after break in and some street miles. The pads are clearly aggressive. They felt good and stopped well, but gave up the ghost after only 4K miles. Yikes! Don't use racing pads on the street.
http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/Marauder_brakes/carbotech_XP8_bedded_IMG_0468. jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~claybu/pics/marauder/brakes/IMG_0464.jpg

[lifespeed]

After burning up the pads and rotors with a desperate try at Carbotech XP8 racing brake pads (an excellent choice for track use I'm sure, but not street) I slapped a set of inexpensive Hawk HPS on without even resurfacing the rotors. There wasn't enough meat left to machine them anyway.I had to keep the car on the road until the Aero6 kit was delivered and I had modified the correct aftermarket wheels (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=95872) to fit the front at 50mm offset, plus the additional consideration of a new Ford 9" axle being built for the rear.

Surprisingly, the Hawk HPS pads lasted the longest of any pad in this over-stressed combination of FNSL6R caliper and 14" X 1.1" rotor. I got 14K miles out of them and they probably would have gone a couple thousand more. So, if you are already an owner of the FNSL6R kit this may be the best way to mitigate the wear problem. Pedal feel and stopping power were not quite as powerful as the other pads, but the 4K to 9K mile maintenance intervals were ridiculous. Even with the Hawk pads the FNSL6R brakes are far more powerful than stockers.

Here is a quick phone snapshot of the new Aero 6 setup and widened American Racing AR883 wheels (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=95872). This is after 2,200 miles of use including the rainy season dirt coating. Although the camera phone shot isn't quite as detailed, I can state with confidence the wear rate is dramatically reduced. The rotor surface is close to mirror smooth, and is clearly much happier. There is no "lip" from wear on the rotor surface where the pads stop making contact towards the inner radius. :D

Despite the rotor diameter remaining the same, and the basic physics proving that increased pad area doesn't increase the coefficient of friction one must remember these are just fundamental laws that don't take into account the realities of over stressed materials changing properties.

The result is these brakes are significantly more powerful and easily modulated than the FNSL6R kit. Which was a lot more powerful than stock. During some brake bedding activities I applied the brakes as hard as I am likely ever to do, normal street driving just doesn't call for that behavior. The force was so great I thought my eyeballs were going to hit my sunglasses.

I noticed the ABS is very effective if the limit is exceeded, recovering traction quickly and gracefully. I have read some comments the factory ABS is wanting, and I suspect this is the same problem as the factory brakes poor performance, not a deficiency in the electro-hydraulic system.

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/Marauder_brakes/brakes_aero6_IMG_20160123_1642 25.jpg

[lifespeed]

First I want to thank Todd for stepping up and designing the bigger Aero6 kit. It looks like my days of excessive brake maintenance are over, and the performance is race car level.

I can't recommend the FNSL6R setup for the Marauder. It is just to big a car for the smaller brakes that fit under the stock wheel. If you have these calipers, all I can say is try the Hawk pads and upgrade to Aero6 when you can't stand it anymore.

I know we all love our Marauder wheels. They're stylish, distinctive, and offered a level of upgraded performance compared to Grand Marquis wheels. Which probably isn't saying much. I have to say upgrading to 20" wheels was one of the best things I have ever done. The ride and handling were so much improved (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99313), as was the braking. One can only stop as fast as grip allows. Cornering is better too. I like to think the style of wheel I chose was in keeping with the Marauder theme, while allowing the basis for much upgraded performance.

[MOTOWN]

My question is how is the brake dust with the pads your using?

[lifespeed]

My question is how is the brake dust with the pads your using?

Brake dust is not bad at all. Not nearly as bad as aggressive pads dust. Carbotech 1521 pads were used with the Aero6 setup.

[MOTOWN]

Brake dust is not bad at all. Not nearly as bad as aggressive pads dust. Carbotech 1521 pads were used with the Aero6 setup.

I'll be ordering a set , i love my Aero 6 setup, but the brake dust from the bp10 pads are killing me!

[daddyusmaximus]

Is there a brake thread or website for beginners? I would like to learn more about the different caliper and pad types you guys are talking about so I could make more sense of threads like this. My new to me Marauder has very slight vibrations/pulsing in the brakes depending on how hard the stop is. Can't really tell if I have slightly warped rotors or it's this "pad transfer" you guys are talking about.

[lifespeed]

Is there a brake thread or website for beginners? I would like to learn more about the different caliper and pad types you guys are talking about so I could make more sense of threads like this. My new to me Marauder has very slight vibrations/pulsing in the brakes depending on how hard the stop is. Can't really tell if I have slightly warped rotors or it's this "pad transfer" you guys are talking about.

Yes, it is pretty much always pad transfer, "warped rotors" is a misnomer. I had the same problem with stock brakes, which started me down the brake upgrade path. The short version is the best solution is the Wilwood Aero6 kit from TCE, but it requires widening and spacing your stock wheels to maintain stock geometry while creating caliper clearance to the spokes, or switching to an appropriate aftermarket wheel.

Given the incredible performance improvement offered by 20" low-profile tires I have to recommend the latter.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

I'll be ordering a set , i love my Aero 6 setup, but the brake dust from the bp10 pads are killing me!

My mustang with brembo big brakes creates a ton of dust under normal driving conditions.. any thoughts on upgrading to another pad in the future?

[MOTOWN]

My mustang with brembo big brakes creates a ton of dust under normal driving conditions.. any thoughts on upgrading to another pad in the future?

I'll be ordering the Carbotech pads that Lifespeeds running, and see how the brake dust is with those.

[daddyusmaximus]

I'll be ordering the Carbotech pads that Lifespeeds running, and see how the brake dust is with those.

Any updates on pad wear? I may have misunderstood, but read it as the last set he tried was the Hawk HPS, and he liked them.

[lifespeed]

Any updates on pad wear? I may have misunderstood, but read it as the last set he tried was the Hawk HPS, and he liked them.

Hawk HPS were just a keep-the-car-on-the-road pad slap for the fatally-flawed FNSL6R brake kit (fits under the stock wheels with a thin spacer). They worked OK, but the brake kit as a whole is undersized for the Marauder.

I run Carbotech 1521 with the Aero6 calipers with a proper 1.25" thick rotor, which does not (easily) fit under the stock wheels. These have worked well, no doubt helped by the larger pad area and rotor thickness.