A coupla quickie questions

[Dan]

Is anyone using a bra on their car to protect the nose?

I see that some are using "Denso" plugs. I assume these are NipponDenso plugs. Why and are there particular specs to shoot for with the plugs or are they just the densos made for the MM?

Why are people using a 180º t-stat? Is that a raise or drop from stock?

Thanks.

Best,

Dan

[Paul T. Casey]

Yes, several folks here wear a bra on the Marauder.
Denso's are the IT-20 variety, coupled with the t-stat upgrade (cooler). The off the shelf Denso for the Marauder is the IT-16. Don't know if there is any gain with them.

[MAD-3R]

Is anyone using a bra on their car to protect the nose?

I see that some are using "Denso" plugs. I assume these are NipponDenso plugs. Why and are there particular specs to shoot for with the plugs or are they just the densos made for the MM?

Why are people using a 180º t-stat? Is that a raise or drop from stock?

Thanks.

Best,

Dan

1. See The Dealer, a sponsor of the site for a good price on a Bra for the Marauder.

2 + 3. Denso's are suggested with 180 stat (stock is 188 I belive) to allow for a slightly more agrresive tune. They in themselves may not deliver any more power, but they work with the whole packadge of "Stage one" Mods.

[Dan]

Another quick Q came to mind. Does anyone have experience with retrofitting the fuel lever set up of the PreDeCon cars?

FYI - I can see me going to the densos and the t-stat. I would want the bra more for the ride home and long highway cruises than anything else.

Dan

[Paul T. Casey]

Do the PCM upgrade with the stat and plugs. It'll surprise you!

[Dan]

PCM?

Powered Car Muscle?
Pyro content mass?
Pure customized Marauders?

Dan confused. :)

[Paul T. Casey]

The computer thing. I do like your choices though.

[RF Overlord]

PCM?
Dan confused. :)

PCM= Powertrain Control Module, if the same computer controls both the engine and the transmission...otherwise it's an ECM (Engine Control Module)...the two are commonly used interchangeably.

Using a chip to override the stock settings for spark advance, fuel tables, transmission line pressure, etc allows the motor to produce more power, better shifts, and so forth. Having the PCM reflashed by using one of the new Superchips Custom Tuning hand-held tuners does the same thing, but without the obvious warranty-voiding presence of an add-on chip. Cooler heat-range plugs and a cooler thermostat allow a little more aggressive tuning.

[Dan]

Ahh, so the 180º t-stat is a cooler unit. Am I correct?

The car I am getting already has the Superchips Microtuner. I guess I should have the car de-programmed and drive it a hundred or so miles and then reflash it to get the right "feel."

Best,

Dan

PS: I can just tell that this is going to be a lot of fun. I love cult cars and cult car enthusiasts.

[MikesMerc]

Ahh, so the 180º t-stat is a cooler unit. Am I correct?


Well...it doesn't really make the engine any "cooler" at all when running in the engines normal operating range. The cooler tstat just opens earlier as the coolant temp rises (ie it opens at 180). Normal coolant operating temps on our MMs are in the 210 to 220 range. A cooler stat will not effect this.

Back in my old drag racing days, I'd often switch to a cooler tstat in order to keep the engine cooler for a short run time...such as moving up in the staging lanes. Other than that, there is no gain in temps once normal operating temps are reached. The rad fan won't turn on until 210...unless you set it to turn on earlier. But even with the fan running early, you won't see temps below 190-195 anyway....still in excess of the 180 tstat full open temp.

I know that I might catch some flak for this post, but, hey, that's the truth.

[CRUZTAKER]

You know Dan...I'm thinking if your MM came with a tuner, it may already have the 180 stat and cooler plugs installed. You should ask the prior owner. This basic change of plugs and stat is traditionally done when running a custom EEC program from either a chip, a flash, or a tuner. I'm thinking you may already have these items.

BTW: You need not have/buy the Denso plugs. Motorcraft Part No. AGSF-12FM1 will do just fine. You just need the cooler plug.

[Dr Caleb]

I love cult cars and cult car enthusiasts.


RF, you draw the pentogram and light the candles, Haggis and I will get the chickens . . . and see if they have any goats while you're there . .

[Bigdogjim]

Better check with TAF on this cult thing :)

[SergntMac]

Not here to argue or flame anyone on this. I've done my own research and have my own results.

Denso plugs and 180 stat (down from the 192 OEM) won't show any remarkable changes, or, improvements in performamce alone. Not until you accomplish custom tuning of the EEC via an add-on chip, or. the hand held programmer. BTW, the hand held is the newer technology. The "chip" had it's side affects we all lived with, but I feel (IMHO) that it's time has run it's course.

Whether by chip, or, programmer, custom tuning adds expanded fuel tables, timing tables, spark tables, transmission shift points and line pressures, while also removing, or, relieving OEM "limiters" and restrictions, as well as allowing for corrections and resets. This engine was programmed to "run hot" to begin with, which cost it some performance, but that was a trade of for lower emissions across the corporate profile.

With these changes in place, cooler engine temps and cooler spark ignition produces an improved combustion process worth 4 HP and 3 ftlbs of torque at the rear wheels. This may seem insignificant in such small numbers, but it all adds up, yes? Just ask the owner who's stuck at 298 RWHP and 298 RWTQ...

Dan...Welcom to the cult of "Two Percenters." No such thing as "just one question" around here, one thought leads to another, K?

[Dan]

Thanks.

The knowledge and support of you guys is great. This is going to be a wild ride.

I can't wait to get the car. It will be neat to be the owner of 1 in 327 cars.

[MikesMerc]

This engine was programmed to "run hot" to begin with, which cost it some performance, but that was a trade of for lower emissions across the corporate profile.

With these changes in place, cooler engine temps and cooler spark ignition produces an improved combustion process worth 4 HP and 3 ftlbs of torque at the rear wheels.

I agree with the concept, but just how does a 180 degree Tstat result in cooler engine temps over a 192 degree Tstat after the car has reached normal operating temperatures? Both Tstats are wide open by the time normal temps are reached. The only time a cooler Tstat would help is if OEM Tstat does not open wide enough at full operating temp. Running no Tstat at all would put the engine in the 195 to 205 range anyway. So the OEM will be wide open anyway.

Running a cooler stat is an old trick, but it only applies to short runs when you're trying to keep the engine from being heat soaked.

Edit - BTW, no argument or flame here either. Just looking to learn something if I missed the engineering logic behind it:)

[drobin]

Dan, I highly recommend the front cover for the Marauder and have been using one for almost two years. The cover is OEM and can be obtained from one of our members called "The Dealer" at a very reasonable price. The cover fits tightly and is made to protect without chaffing paint etc.

Donald
"drobin"

[bigslim]

Is anyone using a bra on their car to protect the nose?

I see that some are using "Denso" plugs. I assume these are NipponDenso plugs. Why and are there particular specs to shoot for with the plugs or are they just the densos made for the MM?

Why are people using a 180º t-stat? Is that a raise or drop from stock?

Thanks.

Best,

DanI have a bra for long travels. It fits like a glove. Here is a picture.

[SergntMac]

I agree with the concept, but just how does a 180 degree Tstat result in cooler engine temps over a 192 degree Tstat after the car has reached normal operating temperatures? Both Tstats are wide open by the time normal temps are reached. The only time a cooler Tstat would help is if OEM Tstat does not open wide enough at full operating temp. Running no Tstat at all would put the engine in the 195 to 205 range anyway. So the OEM will be wide open anyway. Running a cooler stat is an old trick, but it only applies to short runs when you're trying to keep the engine from being heat soaked. Edit - BTW, no argument or flame here either. Just looking to learn something if I missed the engineering logic behind it:)
No flame taken, Mike, but you seem to say that the engine is going to run at the temp it wants despite any stat's effort to lower temps. You may be right, but I can only report what I have observed with my MM.

Being concerned for the overheating issue with cylinders 7 and 8, I use a CarChip EX to monitor my engine's behavior through the OBDII port, as it's reported to the EEC. When I started out with the OEM stat, the engine ran just under 200 degrees, without any remarkable difference between city and highway driving. Adding the 180 stat, I found the average temps to drop to 175-180 degrees, with a peak at 183 degrees, during a long highway cruise with several romps over normal cruising speeds. The stat does effectively lower temps on my MM.

Exactly how this lower temp affects the combustion process, I have to shrug "dunno." As I stated earlier, IMHO this engine was designed to run hot, only to reduce emissions, perhaps stabilize MPG across the corporate fuel economy scale as well, and fine tuning wasn't the OEM's goal. I agree it seems a minor difference in temps, but, I must add that this 4V DOHC engine has taken more than a few principles I believed in from my youth, and thrown them into the wind.

I have a steady 180 degree engine temp, and I get 24 MPG on the highway. I am also very pleased with acceleration and performance, and the changes I've recorded show on the dyno report as productive at the real wheels. 4 HP and 3 Lbs. for 100 bucks, is worth it to me. BTW, my 7-8 cylinder overheating was resolved by adding the a few cooling system parts, and underhood temps are more balanced now as well.

You state that "normal operating temps" are 200-210 degrees, and I wonder how you arrived at that conclusion. I have noted over time, that this engine changes temps very quickly, and perhaps that's expected, considering it's all aluminum construction. Over the winter months, I watched my engine coolant temp rise from zero degrees to 180 degrees, in seven minutes of normal city driving. I never saw that with any cast iron engine, never. Moreover, I didn't take any tuner's word on any of this, I looked at my own evidence, and it's all...IMHO.

[RF Overlord]

Well...it doesn't really make the engine any "cooler" at all when running in the engines normal operating range. The cooler tstat just opens earlier as the coolant temp rises (ie it opens at 180). Normal coolant operating temps on our MMs are in the 210 to 220 range. A cooler stat will not effect this.

But even with the fan running early, you won't see temps elow 190-195 anyway....still in excess of the 180 tstat full open temp.



Mike:

I need some help understanding your statements above...

When the thermostat in my work van failed (in the open position) a few months ago, the coolant temp wouldn't get above approximately 125° at any time. I knew it was the 'stat and not the gauge or the sender, as the heater put out barely warm air, not hot at all. I replaced the 'stat and now everything is back to normal. I've also noticed this effect on other cars over the years in which the 'stats have failed in similar fashion, or had the 'stat removed. If, as you say, a cooler 'stat "won't make the engine any cooler at all", why then did I have a MUCH cooler engine when the 'stat was wide open all the time?

I've been told that the thermostat is not, as many people believe, an "open or shut" device. It is constantly varying between closed and open, and anywhere in between, to regulate the coolant temp at the motor's outlet to the radiator.

Another statement you make is that a cooler 'stat will not effect the engine's normal operating temp. Why then does my temperature gauge (in the MM now) read lower with the 180° unit versus the original 188° unit? Admittedly it's a small difference, but that's exactly what I get on the gauge: it reads very slightly lower. I am not the only one on the board to have noticed this...it was a topic of discussion back when we first discovered Dennis and his magic chips and we were all doing the cooler plugs and thermostat en masse.