Air Bags and Big Brother

[blkgrape]

There was an article in the newspaper that caught my interest. A guy was charged with excessive speeding and causing an accident. According to the guy he was not speeding it was only a residential street with a speed limit of 30 mph and that was what he was doing. The car was brought into the dealership (i guess) and there is a black box (flight recorder :D ) that they were able to get information out of and use in court. The device recorded a speed of 80mph at point of airbag deployment. Now it didn't mention which car he was driving. He was charged b/c of this device.

Now wondering if this device is in every car or just certain ones, I can see it in the gm on star cars b/c of the way that system works. So does that mean that there is such a thing in our cars and if so not sure i like the idea of that, it is possible for the thing to malfunction and give an incorrect reading and cause some serious problems in case of an accident in the court system or just the whole idea of it recording what is going on in the first place.

[SergntMac]

It's not a "black box" device, or at least it was not intended to be that. It's your EEC's ability to remember certain functions for it's own use, or, for troubleshooting. Following certain events, the EEC can record the last 20 seconds of vehicle operation, hard braking, and air bag deployment are two of the triggers. You can clear this history by pulling the battery cable, or, disconnecting the EEC at the firewall for about 10 minutes of so. Moreover, those of you with hand held programmers, can clear it by flashing your tune. In this case, the 411 got used against the driver, but it could have cleared him too.

Those of you with teenaged drivers can buy the CarChip EX from Davis Industries and monitor your teen's driving habits, times the car is in use, speed and distanmce traveled, and so on. I know most of us would rather trust our childern and not spy on them, but this 411 could save them from false accusation too. If they know it's there, and why, they shouldn't have any problem with it. I have one friend who beat a speeding rap when he displayed the charts and graphs in court. Officer said he was doing 90 on the road, and the chart never went over 75.

I am concerned about how law enforcement got this 411 from the dealer, I hope they had a search warrant.

[MYSTA KANG]

It can be good or bad!

But whatever the case maybe we should be very careful driving fast on residential streets. Children are at play or the elderly walking down the street and get hit at that speed its all over. We really dont know how much BIG BROTHER has a hand in the car industry. But overall I think it will benefit people who break the law and people who break the law! :D

[woaface]

It's not a "black box" device, or at least it was not intended to be that. It's your EEC's ability to remember certain functions for it's own use, or, for troubleshooting. Following certain events, the EEC can record the last 20 seconds of vehicle operation, hard braking, and air bag deployment are two of the triggers. You can clear this history by pulling the battery cable, or, disconnecting the EEC at the firewall for about 10 minutes of so. Moreover, those of you with hand held programmers, can clear it by flashing your tune. In this case, the 411 got used against the driver, but it could have cleared him too.

Those of you with teenaged drivers can buy the CarChip EX from Davis Industries and monitor your teen's driving habits, times the car is in use, speed and distanmce traveled, and so on. I know most of us would rather trust our childern and not spy on them, but this 411 could save them from false accusation too. If they know it's there, and why, they shouldn't have any problem with it. I have one friend who beat a speeding rap when he displayed the charts and graphs in court. Officer said he was doing 90 on the road, and the chart never went over 75.

I am concerned about how law enforcement got this 411 from the dealer, I hope they had a search warrant.
Some cars EEC can record up to 20 seconds some as little as 3...but memory is cheap, and it could quickly be several minutes to several hours.

The CarChip EX will certaintly be on my kids cars when they drive. I'll let them know their limits, I'll enroll them in classes far beyond Drivers Ed. But it could be used FOR them and I'll let them know that, besides, it also records braking times and strength to practice on!!!

[Dr Caleb]

There was an article in the newspaper that caught my interest. A guy was charged with excessive speeding and causing an accident. According to the guy he was not speeding it was only a residential street with a speed limit of 30 mph and that was what he was doing. The car was brought into the dealership (i guess) and there is a black box (flight recorder :D ) that they were able to get information out of and use in court. The device recorded a speed of 80mph at point of airbag deployment. Now it didn't mention which car he was driving. He was charged b/c of this device.


If you're talking about the case in Montreal, he was doing 160 km/h in a residential 30 km/h zone. He went through a red light, and killed a woman.

He claimed that he was doing the speed limit, but the black box (and condition of the two cars) says otherwise. He was convicted of dangerous driving causing death, with the black box information used as key evidence to convict him.

IMHO, going that fast in a residential area is just stupid, and I'm glad that the black box took this dangerous person off the road.

Nothing 'big brother' about it.

[RF Overlord]

he was doing 160 km/h in a residential 30 km/h zone.

IMHO, going that fast in a residential area is just stupid, and I'm glad that the black box took this dangerous person off the road.

Nothing 'big brother' about it.

AMEN, Dr Caleb!!!

Here's an interesting tidbit from the on-line version of the MM owner's manual:

Data Recording

Computers in your vehicle are capable of recording detailed data
potentially including but not limited to information such as:
- the use of restraint systems including seat belts by the driver and
passengers,
- information about the performance of various systems and modules in
the vehicle, and
- information related to engine, throttle, steering, brake or other system
status.

Information regarding how the driver operates the vehicle potentially including,
but not limited to information regarding vehicle speed, brake or accelerator application or steering input, may be stored during regular operation or in a crash or near crash event.
This stored information may be read out and used by:
- Ford Motor Company.
- service and repair facilities.
- law enforcement or government agencies.
- others who may assert a right or obtain your consent to know such
information.

[sailsmen]

For US Citizens IMHO a search warrant would need to be obtained since the vehcile and the black box belongs to a private individual and is not public information.

[SergntMac]

For US Citizens IMHO a search warrant would need to be obtained since the vehcile and the black box belongs to a private individual and is not public information.
If not a "search warrant" per se, some pre-approval from a court of jurisdiction, for sure. Nonetheless, the 411 is there, present, available.

If it gets sucked out by a dealership performing repairs, that 411 is now a dealer's responsibility to protect from prying eyes, and as it's been shown here, our owner's manual has a disclaimer published that gives a dealership authority to share that 411 with Law Enforcement. Your warning has been published.

If you're a bad boy in traffic, you have an on-board tattle-tale to deal with.

If you're a good boy in traffic, you have an angel looking over your shoulder.

Either way, y'all now know about it now, and how to manipulate it. How to erase it, and how to use it to your own, (and your own loved one's) benefit.

Your EEC is a recorder, work with that 411. It can hurt you, it can help you, but I don't think "big brother" had much to do with creating any of it.

Unless, of course, you believe that General Dynamics had something to do with Oswald's finger on the trigger back in '63...

[sailsmen]

SgtMac. living in the "Big Easy" land of Jim Garrison and Clay Shaw.

There are some "interesting coincidences" from people I know, but it's just that "interesting coincidences" cause there is no proof beyond that only conjecture.

[woaface]

Here's what I think although it many not be important:

I think it's fine that it's there as long as a warrent is needed to obtain the information, it's not stuck there without the owners knowledge and the owner can have it erased without the law getting in his or her way.

HOWEVER I'm glad it's there to help/hurt the person who most deserved to be helped (the person who was hit) and hurt (the guy who was driving)

HOWEVER IF the computer hadn't been there, forensics should have been able to tell how fast he was going. Mac, you know how it works and you've seen a body or two on the job correct? I've seen at least an hour worth of disgusting footage and pictures in drivers ed and read numerous articles on crash reconstruction and have even spoke with the reconstructionist for Greenville County. WITH that, I know the difference between what you look like after getting hit at 30mph and 80mph is vastly different, and at 30mph, there's a good chance you'll live if you're not brittle or too young. At 80mph, you're done.

[cyclone03]

Hay Guys,
It's not the EEC,it's a separate computer used to manage the airbag system.
It calculates brake force,rate of decel,throttle pos.,vehicle speed,and g-force to optimise the air bag deployment.I think it's under the drivers seat.
You cannot wipe it's memory by unhooking the battery,it has it's own back-up power.I think it only records the last 30sec in a constant loop.It is a real "black box".
If you've been messing around and get in a wreck you may want to take it with you when the meat wagon shows up to take you away. ;)

[woaface]

Hay Guys,
It's not the EEC,it's a separate computer used to manage the airbag system.
It calculates brake force,rate of decel,throttle pos.,vehicle speed,and g-force to optimise the air bag deployment.I think it's under the drivers seat.
You cannot wipe it's memory by unhooking the battery,it has it's own back-up power.I think it only records the last 30sec in a constant loop.It is a real "black box".
If you've been messing around and get in a wreck you may want to take it with you when the meat wagon shows up to take you away. ;)
You sure? I thought the article I read in Car and Driver on this a few months back said it was in the EEC?

[Dr Caleb]

It is a seperate module, for the airbag system.

IIRC, the RCMP did get a warrant for the info. There is a privacy concern here, but to me the RCMP have crash investegators that can tell the speed of a vehicle by skid marks, etc. This information is just icing on the cake.

[hitchhiker]

You sure? I thought the article I read in Car and Driver on this a few months back said it was in the EEC?
Car and Driver doesn't know *****!

French ownership too! :lol:

[SergntMac]

Ummm...Okay. Y'all believe what you want to believe, I can't help that anymore than I have here. Just be aware that a limited data recorder is present on board, and it can tell on you. With regards to erasing it, I have.

[Dan]

I am going to post something on the NMA list about this to get more info.

I don't like the implications of this. Think about it. You are driving down a road at the "85th percentile" speed which is the speed at which the FHWA ihas determined to be the safest speed for that road. However, for political reasons the speed is set about 15-20 mph too low. Now, you are in an accident and automatically, your speed comes into the equation when it should never have in the first place?

Does this make sense? Would anyone ever go to the casino if the deck were stacked like this?

Once I find out more I will get back with all of you.

Best,

Dan

[RF Overlord]

You are driving down a road at the "85th percentile" speed which is the speed at which the FHWA ihas determined to be the safest speed for that road.

Dan:

How do you know what the "85th percentile speed" of a given road is? In my area, we have many roads where the posted speed limit is obviously too low, especially where the road may have recently been widened/straightened/repaved, etc. But by the same token, there are plenty of roads where, IMO, the posted speed limit is too HIGH...

Am I supposed to simply disregard the law and drive at what I believe the "proper" speed should be? (that's the way most young girls and SUV drivers do it...D'OH!)

[TripleTransAm]

In any case, the "proper" speed is relative to the vehicle. What may feel safe in one vehicle can turn out to be way too fast for the physics involved.

I found that out during my second MM test drive... the car was up to 85 kph on a wide boulevard with a 50 kph limit. Didn't notice it until I looked down at the speedo. While I'm sure the MM would have had the suspension and brakes to deal with a sudden emergency situation, the fact remains that the driver was used to driving a 1998 Civic for the previous 4-5 months before that test drive and would be the limiting factor here.

On the subject of the 'black box', there's a good side to its presence (besides what Sarge mentioned). Airbag operation has improved over the past decade, and I'm sure it's due to the manufacturers collecting crash data to find out what went right, and what went wrong. I don't hear too many stories of newer airbags going off at too slow speeds, or when tapped in the rear in a parking lot, etc. If collecting this data means my son will be better protected some 15 years down the line when he takes the wheel, I'm okay with it...

[junehhan]

I believe there is a statement in the owners manual warning that a recording device is present on the vehicle as well. However, it is good to know that I can erase it since I didn't know that was possible up till this topic now. Wasn't there a post where some guy with a brand new Marauder was late for work, and dropped the hammer on the gas right after starting his engine causing it to blow?