Installing New Starter on the MM

[tylerdurden2816]

How hard is it? I've never done one before, and I might have to go at it alone. Videos, pictures, and/or very complete written instructions would be greatly appreciated. Bonus if you know what size wrenches, sockets etc I'll need on hand to do it. It's supposed to rain so I might have to try and do it between storms!

[Zack]

What size wrenches? Is this crownvic.net?

Its 3 10mm bolts, a 13mm nut and 10mm nut.

Not rocket science.

[tylerdurden2816]

Never changed a starter. Ever. Didn't I make that clear?

[Zack]

Are you positive its the starter? They almost NEVER fail.

[tylerdurden2816]

Well we tried jumping it and that didn't work, so it's not the battery. Lately it's been sounding like it's struggling to start. Sounded like the battery was low. I'd turn the key and get a wwwwooooooom-wwwwooooom-wwwwwooooom-vrrroooommm. Or vrrrrrrrrr-wwwooooom-vrrrrrrr-wwwwoooommmm-vrrrrooooom. Then it became the starter click. click-click-click-wwwwoooommmm-vrrroooom! Then last night it was a few clicks and then nothing. Tried jumping, no clicks, no nothing. So if it's not the battery the starter is my only guess. My dad had commented when it was struggling to start that it sounded like my starter had a "flat spot". The car has 140K miles on it. Seems possible?

[massacre]

What size wrenches? Is this crownvic.net?

OMFG I just laughed so hard .
OP, how much voltage is the battery putting out with the car not running?

[tylerdurden2816]

OP? Anyways, IDK, haven't used a test light on the starter yet. But like I said, I did try to do a standard jump-start on it and it made no difference. And that's about the extent of my mechanical prowess. That, and oil changes.

[Zack]

Its not the starter.

[tylerdurden2816]

:depress:Then what is it?!

[Zack]

Get your hands dirty and find out. you rule the starter out by jumping the big cable to the small wire at the starter solenoid.
That test does not rule out the battery cable or bad connections at the battery or starter though.

99% of the time its dirty connections.
I'll assume you checked that first since its mechanics 101?

[fastblackmerc]

Probably a bad / dirty connection as stated above.

[fastblackmerc]

Before you check any of the connections, disconnect the negative battery terminal...... Mechanics 101.

[RubberCtyRauder]

OP = Original Poster, and in this thread it means you.

Get a volt meter and check the battery volts

[tylerdurden2816]

Get your hands dirty and find out. you rule the starter out by jumping the big cable to the small wire at the starter solenoid.
That test does not rule out the battery cable or bad connections at the battery or starter though.

99% of the time its dirty connections.
I'll assume you checked that first since its mechanics 101?

Trying to jump the car was 101. This sounds like 102 and I'm not in that class yet! Where is the starter solenoid located? And to rule out the starter, I jump the big cable to the small wire at the starter solenoid, then turn the key?

[Zack]

Trying to jump the car was 101. This sounds like 102 and I'm not in that class yet! Where is the starter solenoid located? And to rule out the starter, I jump the big cable to the small wire at the starter solenoid, then turn the key?

After reading that, take it to a professional mechanic.

Im out....

[RF Overlord]

Tyler, I had the exact same condition on my DD...acted like the battery was dead. Jumped it and still wouldn't crank. Found the battery had a dead cell and put a new battery in. STILL wouldn't crank. Turned out the positive cable clamp was corroded where it attaches to the wire. Pair of these (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Lynx-O-E-Battery-Terminal/_/N-ad0ji?itemIdentifier=296093_91 9596_23849_) from VatoZone and problem solved.

[tylerdurden2816]

Well my battery cables look clean and so do the terminals. But maybe a dead cell. Seems like an easy check either way. Was yours having the low, slow starts previous to it not starting like mine did too?

[fastblackmerc]

Well my battery cables look clean and so do the terminals. But maybe a dead cell. Seems like an easy check either way. Was yours having the low, slow starts previous to it not starting like mine did too?

What about the ground connection at the block?

What about the connection(s) at the starter?

[sweetair]

My fuel pump just died on me back in May. Only 38xxx on the clock. Is there a thought that this is a possibility? It sounds like she is cranking over pretty good by all your vvvrrroooooommmmm vvvrrroooooommmm descriptions.

It got swapped out and it's AAAAAALLLLLLL good now.

[tylerdurden2816]

My fuel pump just died on me back in May. Only 38xxx on the clock. Is there a thought that this is a possibility? It sounds like she is cranking over pretty good by all your vvvrrroooooommmmm vvvrrroooooommmm descriptions.

Starting about a week ago, it started the low, difficult starting sounds, alternating with the standard cranking sounds, but last night the low sounds and the cranking (read "vvvvrroooommm") sounds ceased completely, a few clicks and then nothing. Even while trying to jump-start it. Since it's not even clicking, let alone cranking, I'd assume it's not the fuel pump?

[sweetair]

Yeah, it's perhaps not the fuel pump. If you do end up trying the swap out of the starter, pending on accessibility, it should be a easy swap. I did the starter on my 1986 Aerostar back in '92 and it took all of 30 mins and on that car I didn't even need to jack it up.
Good luck.
Starting about a week ago, it started the low, difficult starting sounds, alternating with the standard cranking sounds, but last night the low sounds and the cranking (read "vvvvrroooommm") sounds ceased completely, a few clicks and then nothing. Even while trying to jump-start it. Since it's not even clicking, let alone cranking, I'd assume it's not the fuel pump?

[tylerdurden2816]

Thanks, if it's not the battery, I'm told with the right tools its a quick swap, but I think I'll have to jack up the car, there's not much ground clearance otherwise.

[RF Overlord]

Well my battery cables look clean and so do the terminals. But maybe a dead cell. Seems like an easy check either way. Was yours having the low, slow starts previous to it not starting like mine did too?I drove it to my office 2 miles from my house and everything was fine. Came out of the office 10 minutes later and the crank was noticeably slower than normal, but it fired right up. Drove home and parked it. Went out the next day and it was dead.

[tylerdurden2816]

Sounds like an abbreviated version of what happened to me. Fingers crossed it's just the battery. But I don't have that kind of luck lol.

[tylerdurden2816]

Ok, so changed out the starter and that isn't it. Battery reads 12.6 volts. Terminals are clean. Now what could it be?

[Zack]

The battery....or the cable.

Told you it wasn't the starter.

[MERCULES]

I would have the battery load tested as you may have a dead cell in it.

[SamF]

battery...battery...battery, or bad connections.

alternately take it to a mechanic...

[tylerdurden2816]

Not the battery, we just tried a different one, clicks but no start still.

[Zack]

Maybe your engine is seized.

[JoeBoomz]

Maybe your engine is seized.

Test this by turning it by hand clockwise with an 18MM wrench on your crank bolt. If you can turn it at least halfways, you're not seized. Will be easier if the belt is taken off first.

[fastblackmerc]

Ok, so changed out the starter and that isn't it. Battery reads 12.6 volts. Terminals are clean. Now what could it be?

Did you check all the connections? Even the grounds?

Next do a continuity check of all the wires going to the starter, may have a broken one.

[tylerdurden2816]

Did you check all the connections? Even the grounds?


Bingo! And here's what happened to wrap up this saga. We got her to start with jumper cables attached to my buddies 250 Super Duty and drove the car to my buddies shop. My friend with the Super Duty Said as we started my car that it sounded just like his dad's Town Car when it's starter died. So I replace the starter. Burned hands, two sore thumbs and a deep hatred for the third bolt later, the starter was in. The old one was rusted to hell, really looked like a piece of:censor:so it looked the part of the culprit. Turned the key and nothing. We checked battery voltage, we checked voltage to the starter on all the posts, we tried starting the car with a different battery entirely. Nothing. So we've exhausted all thoughts and this is my DD, I need it up and running ASAP. So my friend says he'll get it started one more time and we'll park it at Roesch Ford where I work in Bensenville. Hes cranking and cranking, getting a few clicks and my other buddy and I are looking at the engine as he does it and boom! He and I both see a spark. STOP CRANKING! Apparently we all missed the most important ground, the one attached to the block from the battery. Cut it off close to the block, removed it's mangled, rusty, frayed self and made a new clean connection and it's perfect. Started right the:censor:up.

[cer0413]

Bingo! And here's what happened to wrap up this saga. We got her to start with jumper cables attached to my buddies 250 Super Duty and drove the car to my buddies shop. My friend with the Super Duty Said as we started my car that it sounded just like his dad's Town Car when it's starter died. So I replace the starter. Burned hands, two sore thumbs and a deep hatred for the third bolt later, the starter was in. The old one was rusted to hell, really looked like a piece of:censor:so it looked the part of the culprit. Turned the key and nothing. We checked battery voltage, we checked voltage to the starter on all the posts, we tried starting the car with a different battery entirely. Nothing. So we've exhausted all thoughts and this is my DD, I need it up and running ASAP. So my friend says he'll get it started one more time and we'll park it at Roesch Ford where I work in Bensenville. Hes cranking and cranking, getting a few clicks and my other buddy and I are looking at the engine as he does it and boom! He and I both see a spark. STOP CRANKING! Apparently we all missed the most important ground, the one attached to the block from the battery. Cut it off close to the block, removed it's mangled, rusty, frayed self and made a new clean connection and it's perfect. Started right the:censor:up.
I'm glad you fixed it man.

[tylerdurden2816]

Thank you! I just hope my experience is a lesson for others, and that lesson is this, don't get a new engine installed from a friend of a friend of a friend who does it cheap in his free time. Because not only could this crappy grounding been done right the first time and avoided all of this, but I've found other things, and I imagine they will continue to pop up for years to come.

[MERCULES]

I think Fast Black Merc and Zac had this problem sorted early in the thread when they mentioned connections to the blocks etc. slow down and listen to these guys is the real lesson.

Look around and you will see they are solving problems for the members on a daily basis.

[fastblackmerc]

Did you check all the connections? Even the grounds?

Next do a continuity check of all the wires going to the starter, may have a broken one.


Bingo! And here's what happened to wrap up this saga. We got her to start with jumper cables attached to my buddies 250 Super Duty and drove the car to my buddies shop. My friend with the Super Duty Said as we started my car that it sounded just like his dad's Town Car when it's starter died. So I replace the starter. Burned hands, two sore thumbs and a deep hatred for the third bolt later, the starter was in. The old one was rusted to hell, really looked like a piece of:censor:so it looked the part of the culprit. Turned the key and nothing. We checked battery voltage, we checked voltage to the starter on all the posts, we tried starting the car with a different battery entirely. Nothing. So we've exhausted all thoughts and this is my DD, I need it up and running ASAP. So my friend says he'll get it started one more time and we'll park it at Roesch Ford where I work in Bensenville. Hes cranking and cranking, getting a few clicks and my other buddy and I are looking at the engine as he does it and boom! He and I both see a spark. STOP CRANKING! Apparently we all missed the most important ground, the one attached to the block from the battery. Cut it off close to the block, removed it's mangled, rusty, frayed self and made a new clean connection and it's perfect. Started right the:censor:up.

No comment...........:down:

[tylerdurden2816]

I think Fast Black Merc and Zac had this problem sorted early in the thread when they mentioned connections to the blocks etc. slow down and listen to these guys is the real lesson.

Look around and you will see they are solving problems for the members on a daily basis.

Agreed, and my only defense is ignorance. I don't know where to look until it's literally shooting sparks at me. I've never been someone interested in working on cars. A lack of funds and a car with a never ending list of necessary repairs and engine codes is forcing me to suddenly get hands-on. And my two friends with me at the time probably did know to look but must've somehow overlooked that particular wire till the very end.

[Jeffonebuck]

I think Fast Black Merc and Zac had this problem sorted early in the thread when they mentioned connections to the blocks etc. slow down and listen to these guys is the real lesson.

Look around and you will see they are solving problems for the members on a daily basis.
TRUTH,,,,^^:rock::rock:

[Mebot]

Agreed, and my only defense is ignorance. I don't know where to look until it's literally shooting sparks at me. I've never been someone interested in working on cars. A lack of funds and a car with a never ending list of necessary repairs and engine codes is forcing me to suddenly get hands-on. And my two friends with me at the time probably did know to look but must've somehow overlooked that particular wire till the very end.

I don't mean any disrespect, but with your comment right here, I'm not really sure a Marauder is the right vehicle for you.

[massacre]

Thank you! I just hope my experience is a lesson for others, and that lesson is this, don't get a new engine installed from a friend of a friend of a friend who does it cheap in his free time. Because not only could this crappy grounding been done right the first time and avoided all of this, but I've found other things, and I imagine they will continue to pop up for years to come.

Not sure what you were expecting but you get what you pay for. :shrug:
Sounds like someone did you a favor and saved you some money and now you are complaining?

[RF Overlord]

don't get a new engine installed from a friend of a friend of a friend who does it cheap in his free time. Not to pile on, but this would have been good info for you to tell us in the beginning.

[tylerdurden2816]

I'm not really sure a Marauder is the right vehicle for you.


Not sure what you were expecting but you get what you pay for. :shrug:
Sounds like someone did you a favor and saved you some money and now you are complaining?


Not to pile on, but this would have been good info for you to tell us in the beginning.

It's the right car, it's just in the wrong condition! I've driven Panthers since my first car (not including a brief stint with an 85 Le Sabre I'd prefer not to talk about) and loved them all. I wanted a Marauder since they came out, just got enough cash together a few years ago to buy one at a corner used car lot that the owner was pushing to get rid of from sitting so long.

I'm not complaining about the end results, or even the round about way we got to the completion of the project. I just wanted to give a final description of how we put the problem to rest, nobody likes a story with no ending!

I thought I had mentioned that it had an engine swap? Maybe not. If not, only because everything on it is still stock, I might've not thought I'd make a difference. If I forgot to mention that, that's my fault.

I'm certainly no mechanic, and don't represent myself as such. My dad and friends have always been there to do or show me how to do just about everything on the previous Panthers, and they were 1984 GM and 89 TC, so def less complicated. Due to my newly busy work schedule, and every other weekend with my 16 month old, I really can't count on anyone being free to give me a hand anymore when something craps out now. So I ask A LOT of questions, many of which probably sound stupid to the more mechanically minded individuals here, also my fault. But if I don't know exactly what to do, I get nervous going at the job, I just don't wanna make it worse. I'm just trying to keep her on the road, not get in over my head with different gearing, superchargers and all that other fun stuff, just keep it rolling.

Thanks to all who maintain patience with me.

[Zack]

Send a friend request to Motorhead350.
You two are twins seperated at birth

[drwhy]

I've had starters fail on a 2004 CV with 85,000 miles, an F250 with 25,000 miles and another 2004 CV start to fail with 60,000 miles. So, in my experience, yes they can fail with a lot less than 140,000 miles!

The third bolt isn't so bad if you use a 10mm 6-point socket, with a 6 inch wobble end extension. You can feel it, but can't see it.

[massacre]

I use one of these:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjt8xrZWb4A

I can change a Modular starter in 10 minutes.

[MERCULES]

Very nice, never saw one before.

[camelgrundle]

You guys are all dicks hahaha

[cer0413]

You guys are all dicks hahaha
not me bruh lol

[RF Overlord]

Thanks for the link, massacre. :up:

I gotta go track down the Snap-On truck now...

[massacre]

Thanks for the link, massacre. :up:

I gotta go track down the Snap-On truck now...

No problem, I'm not sure those are still being made though. They pop up on ebay from time to time.
I used to just leave the top bolt out but now I put it back in lol

[tylerdurden2816]

I've had starters fail on a 2004 CV with 85,000 miles, an F250 with 25,000 miles and another 2004 CV start to fail with 60,000 miles. So, in my experience, yes they can fail with a lot less than 140,000 miles!

The third bolt isn't so bad if you use a 10mm 6-point socket, with a 6 inch wobble end extension. You can feel it, but can't see it.

I didn't really have a problem getting to it, it was easy enough to feel, then i put a deep well socket on it and then just had to line the extension up and connect it into the socket. Made the point of contact a little closer and more manageable. The problem is I've got big hands and could really only move the ratchet about two clicks before I'd bump something and have to start moving in the opposite direction. Turning that bolt two clicks at a time is not fun but oh well, it's done now.