View Full Version : Pulling my engine
I've put my '63 in the garage for the winter. Had a pretty bad shake in the drive train since going to the Grand Rapids Metro Cruise. Passed a car on the way up and something happened when I shifted from 3rd to 4th. I think it's in the clutch or trans, but not sure. Made some initial checks that didn't turn up anything. I have some other clean up to do and want to check some internals, so it's coming out this weekend. No rush, got all winter to deal with it.
martyo
09-26-2014, 09:46 AM
Post plenty of pics!!
Post plenty of pics!!
I'll see what I can do. My home computer died this week and I'm on the work PC. Communication will be touch and go until I get it replaced.
martyo
09-26-2014, 11:19 AM
I'll see what I can do. My home computer died this week and I'm on the work PC. Communication will be touch and go until I get it replaced.
Understood.
I have a computer again! :banana2:
No pictures yet. Literally just got connected to the internet at home. And I haven't pulled the engine yet. Have it ready to go, but had some family issues to deal with lately. It should come out soon.
Thought I'd post a little history.
The engine and trans were rebuilt in 1996 and now have 32,000 miles on them. This sounds almost new by today's standards, so let me put it in context for some of our younger viewers.
In 1963 a car with 100,000 miles on it was typically junk. When this car was built the warranty on a new Marauder was 12 months/12,000 miles. But wait, opt for the 406 engine and your warranty was now 3 months/4,000 miles.
Add to this the fact that Ford came out with the top-loader 4-speed in 1964. Why? Because the Borg-Warner T-10 4-speed they had been using broke frequently.
Now while I don't do 6-grand hole shots with it, I don't exactly baby the car either. I like to drive it hard, because that's what it was built for. It still runs like a top. Hit the key and it fires. Hit the throttle and it goes. (Hit the brakes and hope it stops!) But it has always used and leaked oil, and it's had vibration issues for years. This latest shake is more than I'm willing to put up with, it needs a good cleaning, and it has enough miles that I should have a look inside. I was just going to pull the trans, but then thought if I don't find anything there I would just have to pull the engine anyway. Why not make it easy on myself and just pull them both now?
So there we go. I'll try and provide timely updates and pictures.
fastblackmerc
10-05-2014, 08:06 AM
Good Luck!
Bet it's an easy engine & trans removal compared to a modern setup.
Wouldn't it be nice to install a 4.6 in it?
MERCULES
10-05-2014, 08:19 AM
Yikes tranny troubles, computer troubles, family troubles, your due for some good luck, I hope all goes smooth.
Good Luck!
Bet it's an easy engine & trans removal compared to a modern setup.
Wouldn't it be nice to install a 4.6 in it?
Easy isn't kind enough. Check this out.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic002_zpsc9fffd9a.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic002_zpsc9fffd9a.jpg.html)
Check out the wiring harness on the valve cover. 3 WIRES!!! :banana:
There's also the starter wire and a ground. That's ALL!
I don't have space like that around the engine in my 2003. :)
massacre
10-05-2014, 06:02 PM
That's a great picture kirk what a nice car. Love the tri-power also. Have you thought about putting a set of dual quads on it? I know those dual quad manifolds are pretty expensive but boy do they wake up those FEs when tuned right.
Bigdogjim
10-05-2014, 06:18 PM
Having gone for a ride it the car at MV-X I can say that that marauder is a blast! When Kirk says it goes well to goes!. Good luck with the winter project!
That's a great picture kirk what a nice car. Love the tri-power also. Have you thought about putting a set of dual quads on it? I know those dual quad manifolds are pretty expensive but boy do they wake up those FEs when tuned right.
I actually prefer the 3-two setup. I think it provides better distribution.
Check out the wiring harness on the valve cover. 3 WIRES!!!
There's also the starter wire and a ground. That's ALL!
Dohhh! Forgot about the harness to the alternator.
Got it out.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic019_zps41c30723.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic019_zps41c30723.jpg.html)
I expected to find this based on history with the car. It is a symptom of the problem I'm experiencing. Problem has to be back of the flywheel.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic018_zps90094588.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic018_zps90094588.jpg.html)
Marauderjack
10-09-2014, 02:36 AM
Wallowed out pilot bushing??:confused:
Why'd ya have to pull the motor to replace that??:confused:
Wallowed out pilot bushing??:confused:
Why'd ya have to pull the motor to replace that??:confused:
More to do than just a pilot bushing. This is just the beginning.
What caused it to wallow out so bad in just 32,000 miles? Looks pretty excessive to me.
Marauderjack
10-09-2014, 02:15 PM
A real bad input shaft bearing I'd guess??:confused:
What actually caused it or do you know yet??:cool:
A real bad input shaft bearing I'd guess??:confused:
What actually caused it or do you know yet??:cool:
Input shaft bearing is definitely toast, but I wonder if wobble in the drive shaft is the root cause. I've had the drive shaft balanced before with no noticeable effect on the problem, but there are other things going on that still make me suspect it. The investigation continues.
I should have hung a camera under the car before taking it apart. I would still like to do it when I get it back together.
massacre
10-09-2014, 06:34 PM
That's cool Kirk about the tri-power I get what you're saying about "distribution".
I wasn't knocking your setup in the least I love it.
Marauderjack
10-10-2014, 02:48 AM
Looks like the bell housing is off center and misaligned??:confused: Is it OEM or aftermarket??:cool:
Don't see how the drive shaft could cause that since it's on the other end of the transmission!!:shake:
Looks like the bell housing is off center and misaligned??:confused: Is it OEM or aftermarket??:cool:
Don't see how the drive shaft could cause that since it's on the other end of the transmission!!:shake:
Factory bell housing.
My thought was drive shaft radial forces being transmitted thru the tail shaft and amplified to the 3 bearings at the front (pilot, input, shaft to shaft) causing premature ware of all 3. I have very little wiggle of the tail shaft, but lots of wiggle on the input shaft.
Does the group believe the trans is simply worn out and that's all there is to it? I'm looking for input. Who has lots of experience with T-10s?
The trans will get rebuilt, but if that's not where the problem actually lies I'll be back to square one before long.
Marauderjack
10-10-2014, 05:54 AM
What's the inside of the throw-out bearing guide tube look like......may just need a trans input shaft bearing??:confused:
I would encourage you to continue using a pilot bushing since they are more forgiving than a bearing!!:bows: Also, DO NOT put any grease on it.....just a little motor oil and your're good to go!!:beer:
Good Luck!!
1stMerc
10-10-2014, 10:18 AM
You still running points in that bad boy?
You still running points in that bad boy?
All stock, including points and tires. I want it to drive just like it did in 1963. The only real exception to that is the Hurst shifter, but that has more to do with changing the boot than anything else.
Paint needs cleaned up, among other work.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic021_zps5b3c482b.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic021_zps5b3c482b.jpg.html)
1-8 L-R
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic027no1L_zps96692923.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic027no1L_zps96692923.jpg.htm l)
I'm in the process of checking bearings.
Not going to put the 428 CJ tray back in. Trying to make the car as stock as possible, and reduce the number of places where oil can come out.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic024_zpsfb328e9c.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic024_zpsfb328e9c.jpg.html)
I'm going to be replacing rod bearings on 3 & 7. The rest are OK.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic030n03_zps60fd3d5f.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic030n03_zps60fd3d5f.jpg.html )
Marauderjack
10-24-2014, 02:46 AM
While it's out of the car why not freshen up ALL bottom end bearings??:confused:
I certainly would!!:beer:
While it's out of the car why not freshen up ALL bottom end bearings??:confused:
I certainly would!!:beer:
Clearances and conditions are good on all but these two. Not sure why, but they're both on the same journal and the journal looks OK.
1 Bad Merc
10-24-2014, 05:08 AM
Clearances and conditions are good on all but these two. Not sure why, but they're both on the same journal and the journal looks OK.
If I had it all apart I would redo all of it. Why take a chance since you already have it out and apart.
Check your rearend on the car and see if you have any worn out suspension parts. Sometimes the rearend can shift when you are banging on the car and throw the shaft out of alignment and cause premature wear problems on the bearings. Had some of the same problems with our 64 chevy and the two piece drive shaft.
If the shaft is loose going into the trans then I would say there are some trans issues. I would definitely have it checked and rebuilt.
Good luck with the car!
The plan is to check it all, engine to rear end. Just starting at the front and working my way back. When I get done with the engine I'll move to the trans, then back.
71cyclone
10-24-2014, 05:35 AM
nice ;I like those stock Factory free flowin manifolds
Matt34
10-28-2014, 05:31 PM
Wow kirk for some reason i never thought you worked on your car yourself, just payed to have it done. Just assumed, dont know why. You guys make it seem easy to do this stuff but it is far from it, at least for me.
I'm impressed for whatever its worth, wow. Are you a mechanic by trade or just learn about the cars you own?
Are you a mechanic by trade or just learn about the cars you own?
Just an idiot, too cheap to pay someone else to do it. :)
I was trained by the Navy as an Engineman, and was a certified auto mechanic many many years ago. These days I make a living doing temperature control.
If the bearings look good, leave them alone!
While it's out of the car why not freshen up ALL bottom end bearings??:confused:
I certainly would!!:beer:
If the bearings look good, leave them alone!
Well, I'm facing a quandary now. It was my intent to replace just the two bad bearings, and my thoughts are still leaning that way. But I couldn't easily or economically purchase just two. Ended up ordering a whole set. So even though 6 of them look and measure good, with 32,000 miles I may replace them anyway.
Still chewing on it.
71cyclone
10-29-2014, 07:14 AM
Well, I'm facing a quandary now. It was my intent to replace just the two bad bearings, and my thoughts are still leaning that way. But I couldn't easily or economically purchase just two. Ended up ordering a whole set. So even though 6 of them look and measure good, with 32,000 miles I may replace them anyway.
Still chewing on it.
I would ,Plasti gauge them all, then make an assessment.
I would ,Plasti gauge them all, then make an assessment.
Took the plan right outa my head.
I'm done with the rods. Replaced only the 2 bad ones. Clearances on the old bearings are tighter than the 2 new ones, so I left them alone.
On to the rear seal.
Been waiting on a thing or two with the engine, so I went to the other end and replaced some rubber pads and metal retainers.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic036_zpsc9d8f11c.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic036_zpsc9d8f11c.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic037_zps041a5338.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic037_zps041a5338.jpg.html)
I'm also having a drive shaft built. I believe that's ultimately the source of the problem.
jimlam56
11-12-2014, 03:58 PM
Great stuff Kirk, it's great that you're keeping the ole' gal going strong!
71cyclone
11-12-2014, 04:56 PM
Great stuff Kirk, it's great that you're keeping the ole' gal going strong!
Yes Sir , I Love FE engine Blocks .:beer:
Got the rear seal put in tonight. Now I gotta clean up the oil pan and put it back on.
sflrainmaker01
11-15-2014, 01:39 PM
Whatever happened with the trans? I am not sure if the trans is the same as the Toploader 4-speed's they put in the later Mustangs, but, I had a weird situation with one of those a few years back. I had a 428CJ Mach1 (1969). The trans made a some noise one day. It drove still, but didn't sound good. Put it on the trailer and took it to the shop. I had a Ford Master Tech as a friend back then. ;) It stayed at the Ford shop for a couple months. We rebuilt that trans over and over still had the noise. On about the fourth time in and out of the car, we dug into it again. As he spun the input shaft, I noticed that there was a slight wobble in the tail shaft. Come to find out, the MAIN shaft was bent! Everyone was like "how in the #$%%^^& did you bend that?" LOL. Ordered a new main shaft and installed, good to go! :beer:
FWIW..... Good luck! Love your car! :D
Marauderjack
11-15-2014, 03:35 PM
Got the rear seal put in tonight. Now I gotta clean up the oil pan and put it back on.
2-piece neoprene seal??:confused:
Whatever happened with the trans? I am not sure if the trans is the same as the Toploader 4-speed's they put in the later Mustangs, but, I had a weird situation with one of those a few years back. I had a 428CJ Mach1 (1969). The trans made a some noise one day. It drove still, but didn't sound good. Put it on the trailer and took it to the shop. I had a Ford Master Tech as a friend back then. ;) It stayed at the Ford shop for a couple months. We rebuilt that trans over and over still had the noise. On about the fourth time in and out of the car, we dug into it again. As he spun the input shaft, I noticed that there was a slight wobble in the tail shaft. Come to find out, the MAIN shaft was bent! Everyone was like "how in the #$%%^^& did you bend that?" LOL. Ordered a new main shaft and installed, good to go! :beer:
FWIW..... Good luck! Love your car! :D
I haven't gotten to the trans more than thinking about it yet. I have options. I could do nothing (not likely). I have a spare trans on the shelf that should be ready to go, but it's less "correct" than the one I pulled (same ratios, different case). If I put the spare in I would probably want to rebuild the one I pulled so I'm thinking why not just rebuild it and put it back in.
Still thinking about it all.
2-piece neoprene seal??:confused:
Yes. Can't leak worse than the rope seal I took out.
Marauderjack
11-16-2014, 03:20 AM
Did the rope have pins to hold it in place?? If so how did ya remove them??:confused:
BTW......I went down this road MANY times before I cured the "Leak From HELL"!!:mad2::argue:
Did the rope have pins to hold it in place?? If so how did ya remove them??:confused:
BTW......I went down this road MANY times before I cured the "Leak From HELL"!!:mad2::argue:
No pins. I bought a "Sneaky Pete" to get it out with, but it didn't work. Ended up just using needle nose pliers. Once I got it started it came right out. Rear main seals can be a royal PITA. I think it'll be fine now, but only time will tell.
Working on getting the engine cleaned up, put back together, and painted.
Oil pan shows 51 years of use and abuse.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/20141122_170123_zpsdc5f2ed2.jp g (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/20141122_170123_zpsdc5f2ed2.jp g.html)
Engine has new paint on it.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic047_zps5f384e6f.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic047_zps5f384e6f.jpg.html)
I believe this is the cause of my troubles.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic046_zpsb141b71f.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic046_zpsb141b71f.jpg.html)
And if I'm correct, this new DTS drive shaft should be the fix.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic045_zps9de70d76.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic045_zps9de70d76.jpg.html)
New engine mounts and a battery tray were in order.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic051_zpse212ff71.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic051_zpse212ff71.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic052_zps631af59d.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic052_zps631af59d.jpg.html)
Still working on the engine and engine bay.
Marauderjack
12-04-2014, 03:55 PM
Ya gotta get in that engine bay to get it right!!;)
Ya gotta get in that engine bay to get it right!!;)
Just got outa there.
Also did a little tuneup here
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic053_zpsa0ebb0e8.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic053_zpsa0ebb0e8.jpg.html)
Add some new Autolite double platinum plugs and it should run even better than it did. And it was running pretty darn well before (if you can look past the car shaking).
There was pitting on both sets of points.
Working on the headers now.
CRUSIN'
12-04-2014, 07:55 PM
If you don't find anything really obvious, try checking the runout on your bellhousing.
fastblackmerc
12-04-2014, 08:25 PM
Just got outa there.
Also did a little tuneup here
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic053_zpsa0ebb0e8.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic053_zpsa0ebb0e8.jpg.html)
Add some new Autolite double platinum plugs and it should run even better than it did. And it was running pretty darn well before (if you can look past the car shaking).
There was pitting on both sets of points.
Working on the headers now.
Just a thought..... Have you ever thought about going with a Pertronix electronic ignition to replace those points?
martyo
12-04-2014, 08:31 PM
Just a thought..... Have you ever thought about going with a Pertronix electronic ignition to replace those points?
Agreed. I like the Pertronix!
fastblackmerc
12-04-2014, 08:34 PM
Agreed. I like the Pertronix!
Used them on my 66 Corvair.
martyo
12-04-2014, 08:38 PM
Used them on my 66 Corvair.
Use one on my '64 Corvette and my '66 Belvedere.
Just a thought..... Have you ever thought about going with a Pertronix electronic ignition to replace those points?
I ran one for a while. In the 33 years I've had it it's gone through a lot of changes. I've done the Pertronix, 4.11 rear, 427 headers, tires, traction bars. But since I figured out it's the oldest Marauder I've been working toward making it bone stock, or as close as I can come. That's one of the reasons the windage tray didn't go back in this time. I hope someday it will be a museum piece (in my museum), but I'm not done driving it yet anyway.
Red91LX
12-05-2014, 06:32 PM
Good stuff, Kirk. Gotta love it! I run the stock dual points in my "K Code" '65 Mustang, and never had any ignition problems. I think a lot depends on how much you drive the car. A few hundred miles a year probably won't cause the points to wear out for many years, if at all.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic054_zps2b657f88.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic054_zps2b657f88.jpg.html)
On to the flywheel and clutch.
69marquis conv
12-06-2014, 07:14 AM
That thing is a beauty and an FE with cast headers is just icing on the cake!
You can see the damage where the disc was hitting the inside of the clutch housing near the bolt holes, and on the outer edges of the disc. This had to be causing at least part of the violent shake. I still think the drive shaft caused this to go bad, and also contributed to the shake.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic057_zps4aa812e9.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic057_zps4aa812e9.jpg.html)
I checked out the flywheel to see if it was flat (was it contributing?).
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic058_zpsbe524c46.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic058_zpsbe524c46.jpg.html)
It is flat, but is still going to need some attention.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic056_zps455449d5.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic056_zps455449d5.jpg.html)
I was able to find the correct Ford clutch and disc.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic055_zpsaa0c48bd.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic055_zpsaa0c48bd.jpg.html)
Flywheel at the shop and trans kit on order.
Nice clean flywheel.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic059_zps36df3e75.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic059_zps36df3e75.jpg.html)
New clutch.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic060_zpsda933473.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic060_zpsda933473.jpg.html)
Now I need some input. I have never run this test on any car before, but given the problems I've had it needed done.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic061_zpseb6ecd1b.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic061_zpseb6ecd1b.jpg.html)
I checked the runout on the bearing mount. I get 0.024" and believe that's excessive.
Is it the shaft? I pull it and turn it 1/4 turn. The high spot remains at the same place on the flywheel, so it's not the shaft.
I hesitate to believe it's just the disc pushing it off a little. It was a very snug fit going together so I'm inclined to believe the pilot bushing is off 0.024". Is this as big a problem as I think it is?
Further investigation finds runout at the pilot bushing is 0.004".
Engine's back together. Trans kit came today. Engine bay's cleaned up. We are way ahead of schedule. :banana:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic050_zps8f99e7fa.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic050_zps8f99e7fa.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic062_zpsa74cc4a9.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic062_zpsa74cc4a9.jpg.html)
Got my trans parts, but then ran into a roadblock.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic063_zpsf1a1f6d7.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic063_zpsf1a1f6d7.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic064_zps170f7054.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic064_zps170f7054.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic065_zps047f8594.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic065_zps047f8594.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic067_zps2d221a6d.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic067_zps2d221a6d.jpg.html)
Marauderjack
12-14-2014, 12:13 PM
OUCH..OUCH..OUCH!!!:(
Matt34
12-14-2014, 08:47 PM
Kirk I know this is none of my business but how much is this costing you? It looks to me like quite a bit of money for all these parts even if you do all the labor.
I can remember you saying these engines are only good for maybe 25,000 miles before a rebuild may be necessary? Just asking to get an idea what I may be in for when and if I need to to do something like this to my engine...
Cars aren't cheap, but they are fun. I have a LOT less money in my 1963 than I have in my 2003, and I'm talking life time money.
This little project isn't that bad, or at least wasn't until I pulled that transmission apart. I haven't been tracking the details but I think I'm still below $1,000 at this point. Not bad considering I haven't done any major maintenance like this in 18 years.
Looking into my options with the trans. Still ahead of schedule, so I have time.
Your car should go 100,000 miles with ease. The 406 and 427 engines were not made for grocery duty and require a lot more work than a 390.
Got a line on an NOS input shaft today, and it's ONLY $4,500!
The search goes on.
Well, I'm half way through my road block. Found an NOS input shaft for a little less than $4,500. :)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic068_zpsb656489d.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic068_zpsb656489d.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic070_zpsa3268836.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic070_zpsa3268836.jpg.html)
Latest issue, bell housing run out is 0.009"
Latest issue, bell housing run out is 0.009"
TKO transmissions instructions (Classic Motorsports Group) states that this measurement on a Ford should be no bigger than .005"
Offset dowels are available in only .007", .014", and .021" sizes. If I were to use the .007" I would (theoretically) get my run out down to .0055", still out of spec.
Then there's this Ford Racing document http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/tipsPDF/Clutch_Transmission_Bellhousin g_Tech.pdf which states a run out as high as .015" is OK (and that offsets come .007, .014, and .021). This makes more sense with the sizes available.
Am I chasing a problem that doesn't exist?
A few more new parts this week.
A clutch fork boot, inner fender splash shields, and a few wire straps. I also put a clamp around the bottom of my battery to get rid of the bungee cord.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic073_zpse6729b2d.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic073_zpse6729b2d.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic074_zpsa0bde424.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic074_zpsa0bde424.jpg.html)
Also ordered a used tail shaft today. Might be a couple weeks before I get it.
As it says on my show display card, "I consider this car more maintained than restored"
This alternator shield has been missing the flexible cover since I don't know when. Today I made a pattern, cut out a piece of one of the old inner fender shields, and stapled it to the metal shield using the original holes.
Had to do this one myself because you can't buy this anymore.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic075_zps17a588fe.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic075_zps17a588fe.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic077_zps594e57ff.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic077_zps594e57ff.jpg.html)
8UWITH6
01-11-2015, 12:03 PM
Very cool. Enjoy your project.
While I do think it was time for a new drive shaft, I think all of the combined evidence I have in front of me now points more in the direction of bell housing alignment being the root cause of my vibration. Assembled runout stands at 0.004". Can't wait to get this thing back together and drive it and see if I've actually fixed things.
Changed my pinion seal this week because it showed signs of leaking, and it was part of the whole out of wack rotating mess. Got that done, but now I've run out of things I can do to the car until I get my tail shaft. Engine's still on the floor and the trans is still in pieces on the table. Hurts me to look at it. I need that shaft.
Got a surprise on a UPS truck today. Working on doing something useful with it.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic081_zps3bd9e889.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic081_zps3bd9e889.jpg.html)
Success!
It's all down hill from here.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic082_zpsbf984132.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic082_zpsbf984132.jpg.html)
Back where it belongs.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic084_zps65a2977b.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic084_zps65a2977b.jpg.html)
I'm one of those who likes to save the easy stuff for last, so I've started under the car at the rear getting every thing hooked back up, and I'm working my way forward and to the top. Drive train is bolted in, drive shaft is in, and I'm working on the trans (oil, shifter, etc.).
Everything's bolted in on the bottom side.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic087_zps580fcd48.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic087_zps580fcd48.jpg.html)
Still work to do on the top.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic088_zps630e5c1f.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic088_zps630e5c1f.jpg.html)
J-MAN
01-24-2015, 07:17 AM
Sure looks sweet!
Sure looks sweet!
Thanks! The closer I get, the more excited I am. Might even be able to start it tomorrow.
Well, I did not get it running Sunday. Still running into issues, though they're pretty minor compared to the trans.
My engine wiring is so hard and brittle that the insulation is breaking. I'm going to have to run some new wire.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic090_zpsd186c398.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic090_zpsd186c398.jpg.html)
My new upper radiator hose is the wrong size.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic091_zps6c3575d6.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic091_zps6c3575d6.jpg.html)
So I'm working through those two issues.
Let's talk batteries. I made mention in an earlier post that I put a clamp on the bottom of my battery to get rid of the bungee cord. So you might ask, why on earth do I have to cobble this up in the first place?
My goal is to make this car just as factory correct as I can, while still being able to drive it.
The challenge with the battery is this. It takes a group 27F battery. The original design uses tabs on the bottom of the battery to clamp it into place. An original Autolite battery is still available, and I have run a couple of them in the past. The current price is $360 and the two I've run only lasted 3-4 years.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic093_zpsfe21972e.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic093_zpsfe21972e.jpg.html)
The DieHard I've been using is over 7 years old and still works fine, but I want something more correct. And any modern 27F does not come with the clamp tabs at the bottom. This includes the Motorcraft battery I just bought for $120.
I do consider modern Motorcraft parts correct for the car. This includes the FL-1A oil filter and the new battery. They are Ford supplied replacement parts and the Motorcraft battery in my '03 Marauder is now almost 13 years old and still going strong. But this new battery doesn't have the tabs and I don't want to modify the hold-down.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic094_zps661f5160.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic094_zps661f5160.jpg.html)
That's why I came up with the clamp at the bottom of the battery that will insert into the existing factory clamping arrangement. It looks a little odd, isn't that noticeable, but does hold the battery in place well, and is easily reversible.
Lowndex
01-27-2015, 02:46 PM
I just purchased the Ford Racing block (M-6009-A46X).
https://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 22907
BRG Racing will provide the porting, values, lifters, etc... (top end). The new engine is projected to yield 425 + rbhp and pass CA emissions. Else, I could go huge (500 + rbhp).
Good luck to you, sir.:beer:
This original T-handle shifter
http://calponycars.com/734-1748-large/1963-1964-4-speed-galaxie-shifter-lever-.jpg
and the frequency at which the upper boot goes bad (the lower boot is the same used by bench seat cars)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic078_zps8919b5be.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic078_zps8919b5be.jpg.html)
is the reason I run the Hurst shifter
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic095_zps17252ad3.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic095_zps17252ad3.jpg.html)
It takes a torch to take that T-handle apart and put it back together, and you have to do that to change the boots. Doesn't take very many times doing that to come up with another option. Don't get me wrong, I do like the increased performance, but the ultimate goal is original.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic096_zpse0b51d3f.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic096_zpse0b51d3f.jpg.html)
I do have the original shifter rebuilt and all bagged up with new boots on it (upper and lower) ready to go. That goes in when I don't drive it any more.
I started it last night!
Couple of minor leaks to address, and I need to check the timing after replacing the points, but it runs and I'm basically ready to test it on a drive.
But now, as Tom Petty says, "waiting is the hardest part". We are getting 10-14 inches of snow today. It's snowing and blowing as I write. Won't be test driving it any time soon.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic098_zps91a1d5d7.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic098_zps91a1d5d7.jpg.html)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic099_zpsea1c5238.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic099_zpsea1c5238.jpg.html)
To summarize this winter's activity:
To try and eliminate my vibration problem I paid special attention to my bellhousing alignment, replaced my drive shaft, and paid special attention to my drive train alignment in the car.
To repair the damage from that vibration, 32,000 miles of driving, and 18 years of time I:
Painted engine bay except for left side
New engine mounts
Checked all 8 rod bearings, replaced 3 & 7
Checked #5 main bearing
New rear main seal
Surfaced flywheel
Adjusted valves
New fan belt
New radiator hoses
New points, plugs, condenser, rotor
New wire straps where they were missing
Replaced missing flex shield on alternator shield
New transmission bearings, gaskets, and sycors
New transmission main drive gear (input shaft) (correct NOS part)
Replaced transmission output shaft (used)
New clutch and disc (correct NOS parts)
New upper shift boot
New clutch fork boot
Replaced rear end pinion seal
Replaced rear spring isolators
Lubed suspension & steering
Repair/replace some engine wiring
To make the car more factory correct I:
Removed the windage tray
Deleted the exhaust manifold gaskets
Put in several NOS parts
I'll make a final update after I can actually drive the thing.
Jeronimojc
02-02-2015, 12:25 AM
Congrats! Looks like you've done lots if work to it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fatality51
02-02-2015, 10:35 AM
you live in minnesota? nice car by the way!
04 Quicksilver
02-04-2015, 06:22 PM
Kirk, I have the same issue with the battery in my '64 as you do. At first I used a rubber strap with S-hooks on the ends but now I just let it sit on the tray loose. It doesn't seem to move any but am I asking for trouble? The clamp you mentioned is on the Die Hard battery? How did you get something big enough to go around the battery or did you have to make it?
BW
They give you this but you pay for that
Jeronimojc
02-04-2015, 07:41 PM
Yes, a loose battery is an accident waiting to happen.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
04 Quicksilver
02-04-2015, 09:25 PM
I'll put the strap back on it. Thanks for the advice.
BW
The king is dead but he's not forgotten
Marauderjack
02-05-2015, 03:34 AM
Bet ya can fine something that'll for ya work here!!:beer:
https://www.google.com/search?q=marine+battery+trays+ %26+tie-downs&rlz=1C1MSIM_enUS510US510&espv=2&biw=1745&bih=861&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=90bTVKu2MIHMgwShrYLoBw&ved=0CEgQsAQ
Kirk, I have the same issue with the battery in my '64 as you do. At first I used a rubber strap with S-hooks on the ends but now I just let it sit on the tray loose. It doesn't seem to move any but am I asking for trouble? The clamp you mentioned is on the Die Hard battery? How did you get something big enough to go around the battery or did you have to make it?
BW
They give you this but you pay for that
I went to the hardware and bought two HVAC duct clamps. They are just your typical worm gear clamps, like hose clamps, but 18 inches long. I used two so I have a buckle on each end of the battery to use for the clamp-down. I also had to use a plastic block on one end to give it just a little more length.
Matt34
02-08-2015, 09:45 PM
Kirk, I have the same issue with the battery in my '64 as you do. At first I used a rubber strap with S-hooks on the ends but now I just let it sit on the tray loose. It doesn't seem to move any but am I asking for trouble? The clamp you mentioned is on the Die Hard battery? How did you get something big enough to go around the battery or did you have to make it?
BW
They give you this but you pay for that
I bought two chrome hooks with threaded ends and drilled two holes in the sides of the battery tray in the middle for them to hook to and then got a piece of 2 inch by 1/4 inch thick steel bar and cut it to lenth, around 6 or seven inches i think but cant remember exactly, then layed out two holes 1 inch in from either side centered on the plate and drilled out the holes to the a little bigger size than the threaded ends of the hooks.
Painted the steel plate a flat back and put some pads, washers, and chrome wing nuts to secure it to the battery. Also added some battery tray padding to the underside of the steel plate where it meets the battery.
Looks great and works great as well. And didnt cost very much.
Here's a look in full display mode with the factory wires and air filter. I don't run those when I'm driving it.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic%20103_zpshhymgkor.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic%20103_zpshhymgkor.jpg.html )
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic%20100_zpsddvs6xrs.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/pic%20100_zpsddvs6xrs.jpg.html )
Joe Walsh
02-28-2015, 10:54 AM
Latest issue, bell housing run out is 0.009"
TKO transmissions instructions (Classic Motorsports Group) states that this measurement on a Ford should be no bigger than .005"
Offset dowels are available in only .007", .014", and .021" sizes. If I were to use the .007" I would (theoretically) get my run out down to .0055", still out of spec.
Then there's this Ford Racing document http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/tipsPDF/Clutch_Transmission_Bellhousin g_Tech.pdf which states a run out as high as .015" is OK (and that offsets come .007, .014, and .021). This makes more sense with the sizes available.
Am I chasing a problem that doesn't exist?
Hi Kirk!
Great thread with great pix.
When my brother and I mocked up the bellhousing to our 427 block the runout was wayyy too much.
I'm glad we took the time to check it with a dial gauge and did not assume that "all was good".
We used the offset dowels to get it well within specification and have had no vibration problems with the combo.
I suspect this was a contributor to the 'hogged out' shaft bushing.
Hi Kirk!
Great thread with great pix.
When my brother and I mocked up the bellhousing to our 427 block the runout was wayyy too much.
I'm glad we took the time to check it with a dial gauge and did not assume that "all was good".
We used the offset dowels to get it well within specification and have had no vibration problems with the combo.
I suspect this was a contributor to the 'hogged out' shaft bushing.
Thanks.
Bell housing run-out is just one of those things I've never given much thought to in the past. I'm mean, after all, isn't it all set from the factory? But clearly it may not be, and I've learned some new things this go-round.
It still has to pass the test. *%#! winter!
I was able to warm it up, set the idle mixture and timing, and take it around the block today. Leaks are all gone and things are good so far. It's ready for the highway test. Unfortunately, the roads are not ready for that test yet. We need some rain and some holes filled, but I'm one step closer. :beer:
Fatality51
03-17-2015, 10:31 AM
Going to try and get my 390 running again now that it's noce outside! But i have been thinking about doing a engine swap with either a newer ford motor or a Chevy 5.3 or 5.7. I don't wanna ruin the value of the car but it would be sweet to have a reliable new engine. Any suggestions?
fastblackmerc
03-17-2015, 11:26 AM
Going to try and get my 390 running again now that it's noce outside! But i have been thinking about doing a engine swap with either a newer ford motor or a Chevy 5.3 or 5.7. I don't wanna ruin the value of the car but it would be sweet to have a reliable new engine. Any suggestions?
Why won't the 390 be reliable?
Parts are still available.
No electronics.
I've had it out a few times now, on increasingly longer drives. I did not get rid of the underlying vibration I have at 70-75 mph, and was disappointed.
Maybe it's just my long history with the car, knowing all of the sounds and movements that come out of it. I took a retired auto mechanic friend for a ride today to get his opinion. He said he wished his old cars ran that smooth, even at 75 where I thought I had a problem. He thinks its great and ready for a long drive. I have to say, it drives better than it has in many years. Runs strong and smooth.
So the world's oldest Marauder is in the best condition it has been in in a very long time. It is a joy to drive and I can't wait to start hitting the shows this summer. Don't know which shows for sure yet, but Woodward is way up there on the list. We'll see what else I can make.
Fatality51
03-24-2015, 05:21 PM
Back to the 50s or car craft in Minnesota, we can park the marauders next to eachother haha
Well I'm still not satisfied with this and I'm still digging. Looking at driveshaft alignment and runout.
Well after flipping my new driveshaft 180° my vibration is GONE! :banana2:
This chapter is finally closed. Now for some summer fun.
fastblackmerc
04-08-2015, 01:33 PM
Good that you found the problem.
Good that you found the problem.
Yes, what a relief after fighting with it for years. Turned out to be what I initially thought it was, the driveshaft.
Well, I'm updating this thread because through this past summer the vibration returned. I've been under the car again this week, and have been doing a bit more research. I'm happy to say that I'm pretty sure I have found the problem. It has the wrong U-joint at the rear end of the driveshaft. The current U-joint is square (all 4 caps the same size) and is the same as that required for the front. The correct rear U-joint has caps for the rear end that are larger (just slightly) than the the caps for the shaft. This error has been made at least twice because the new driveshaft came with the wrong U-joint.
Picked up the new part today, and went to great lengths to make sure it was correct. It was the second one I ordered because the first one wasn't square, but also wasn't quite the right size despite being listed for my car. It will be quick to replace, but then I'll have to wait for March to test it. That's going to make it a long winter.
With the abnormal weather here no need to wait for March. Took it for a test drive Christmas day. The problem is worse with the correct u-joint.
WTF!
I have one more trick up my sleeve. Back under the car I go.
Last thing on the list seems to have worked. Only more driving will tell for sure. Thought I had it fixed last year.
Red91LX
01-05-2016, 04:52 PM
What a saga... It's surprising how much the driveshaft affects the way a car drives. I have experienced similar issues many years ago on a '64 K Code Fairlane Sports Coupe, as well as a '65 Comet Cyclone. My latest vibration issue was solved on my '65 K Code Mustang by replacing the U joints with a correct set of NOS pieces.
If I can trust my one test drive, and history knowledge of the car, this was my problem. It is not original to the car and I believe it's off center. It was replaced by an NOS unit.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/Kirk_D/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/20151227_140558_zps57ohu45n.jp g (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/Kirk_D/media/My%20cars/vib%20checkout/20151227_140558_zps57ohu45n.jp g.html)
Only time and more driving will tell for sure.
Well, I've taken it on one long drive, and then made a little balance tweak. Yesterday I took it on another long drive.
It drives great! :banana2:
I'm no longer concerned about speeds above 65. I think it drives better than at any time since I bought it. Can't wait for summer.
jobrien8
06-18-2016, 11:08 AM
Hey Kirk,
Was great seeing you again at the SAAC-MCR 41 last week. After you telling me your "tale of vibration", had to check it out. Very meticulous, though you relaying it in person is so much better. Hope our paths cross again. Take care.
John O'Brien
John, it was great seeing you too! My car drove great there and back. Drove it to Grand Rapids today without a hitch. Can't wait to see you and the gang at Woodward this year.
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