American Racing Maverick 883 20 X 8.5" big brake clearance

[lifespeed]

I have completely had it with burning through front brake pads. I have asked Todd at TCE to engineer a kit that uses the larger Aero6 caliper. Of course that will not fit behind a stock wheel without a large spacer. Maintaining the scrub radius would then require the wheel be widened by 2X the thickness of the spacer.

These wheels have 40mm offset instead of the 50mm OEM wheel, but they are 8.5" wide instead of 8". So the scrub radius is shifted outboard by only 10mm-(12.7mm/2)=3.65mm or 0.144".

Not too bad, and could be corrected with wheel widening if necessary. Now all I have to do is find 5% staggered tires or find out if a Grand Marquis ABS module is accepted by the PCM for stagger-free rolling stock.


http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/2014-11-10_American_Racing_Maverick_88 3_wheels_on_Marauder/IMG_0662.jpg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/2014-11-10_American_Racing_Maverick_88 3_wheels_on_Marauder/IMG_0664.jpg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/2014-11-10_American_Racing_Maverick_88 3_wheels_on_Marauder/IMG_0666.jpg

[lifespeed]

These wheels appear to shift the bead about 1/2" outboard (closer to the fender lip). The OEM setup did not appear to have a great deal of tire-to-fender clearance. And I am not relying on stock or higher ride height for clearance, in fact the car is lowered slightly both front and rear.

What are the chances these wheels will rub? Less sidewall bulge from the tires would help, of course. I would hate to get such an expensive experiment wrong.

[Comin' in Hot]

The following is not meant to criticize you, I'm just really curious.

Where and how do you drive your car that you have such problems with the brakes?

The reason I ask is because I've averaged 25k a year in my DD S/C'd marauder with stock brakes in what is arguably most aggressive area to drive in the country (PA/NJ/NY..... and I have driven everywhere in the country). My marauder has great brakes because I have the system bled properly and I manage to get at least a year out of my pads while driving it like I stole it.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be an a$$. I'm just really curious what you do with your marauder???

[MOTOWN]

Your not going to have issues rubbing on a 8.5" wheel on a +40mm offset , by your wheel only being 8.5" wide your limited on tire size options , best thing you can do at this point is go to Nitto , and Toyos website and look at height and width specs on 20" tires to see what appeals to you , and what is approved for a 8.5" wheel , thats the fun part!

[JohnnyCashMerc]

Those are some nice replacement wheels.

[Invader]

Your not going to have issues rubbing on a 8.5" wheel on a +40mm offset , by your wheel only being 8.5" wide your limited on tire size options , best thing you can do at this point is go to Nitto , and Toyos website and look at height and width specs on 20" tires to see what appeals to you , and what is approved for a 8.5" wheel , thats the fun part!


Miata.net Tire Size Calculator is a great tool to use... IMO

[MOTOWN]

Miata.net Tire Size Calculator is a great tool to use... IMO

Hit & miss not all that accurate , and does not take ride height into account.

[lifespeed]

The following is not meant to criticize you, I'm just really curious.

Where and how do you drive your car that you have such problems with the brakes?

The reason I ask is because I've averaged 25k a year in my DD S/C'd marauder with stock brakes in what is arguably most aggressive area to drive in the country (PA/NJ/NY..... and I have driven everywhere in the country). My marauder has great brakes because I have the system bled properly and I manage to get at least a year out of my pads while driving it like I stole it.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be an a$$. I'm just really curious what you do with your marauder???

Sometimes I drive it hard, most times not. The pads just don't last, and the rotor surface looks like it is getting used pretty hard. In my opinion, there is not enough pad area for a 4200lb car. The FNSL6R caliper does not use a pad that is any bigger than OEM. But the rotor is larger diameter (and thinner at 1.1"), the swept area radius is more narrow, and it has a 6-piston caliper that can really put the bite on those pads. I have tried three different pad compounds, and just threw a set of Hawk HPS on there because they were cheap and I need to keep the car on the road until the brake/wheel/tire custom parts all come together.

All you have to do is look at the rotors after 2 - 3K miles and it is obvious the fronts are taking more load than they can handle gracefully. This after the brake bias is shifted rearward by the TCE kit to complement the stiffer suspension and counteract the too-conservative OEM configuration. OEM piston area ratio is 2:1 while TCE ratio is 1.64:1. The rears look great and the brake balance is correct. Stopping power is great as well.

[lifespeed]

Your not going to have issues rubbing on a 8.5" wheel on a +40mm offset , by your wheel only being 8.5" wide your limited on tire size options , best thing you can do at this point is go to Nitto , and Toyos website and look at height and width specs on 20" tires to see what appeals to you , and what is approved for a 8.5" wheel , thats the fun part!

I am considering widening the fronts to 9" and the rear to 9.5". You are correct the choices for fronts with a 8.5" width are not many. And a combination that uses the same width front and rear with a staggered profile and one size wider (like OEM) seems to be unlikely

I need to make sure the front and rear size combination is available, preferably in a matched tire model, and results in a vertical sidewall.

245/35-20 3.4in 13.4in 26.8in 84.0in 754
285/35-20 3.9in 13.9in 27.9in 87.5in 724 4.1%

Michelin Pilot Super Sport, Continental ContiSportContact 3, Pirelli P Zero, Bridgestone Potenza RE050A (light load)

[MOTOWN]

I am considering widening the fronts to 9" and the rear to 9.5". You are correct the choices for fronts with a 8.5" width are not many. And a combination that uses the same width front and rear with a staggered profile and one size wider (like OEM) seems to be unlikely

I need to make sure the front and rear size combination is available, preferably in a matched tire model, and results in a vertical sidewall.

245/35-20 3.4in 13.4in 26.8in 84.0in 754
285/35-20 3.9in 13.9in 27.9in 87.5in 724 4.1%

Michelin Pilot Super Sport, Continental ContiSportContact 3, Pirelli P Zero, Bridgestone Potenza RE050A (light load)

I would widen the fronts to 20x10 and the rears to 20x11 you will have plenty of clearance , and at 20x11 on a +40mm offset you won't need to run a spacer , plus you will have a lot more tire options , the first two inches of material is the same price at Weldcraft so it won't cost you anymore to go with the wider widths.

[lifespeed]

It's been a while, but this has turned into a major undertaking with the addition of a 9" Ford floating hub rear axle. I am about to pull the trigger and have arrived at the following configuration.

The American Racing AR883 20" X 8.5" +40mm offset widened to 9.3" in the front with a 265/35-20 front tire and 10" in the rear with 275/40-20 tire.

This will maintain the factory scrub radius in the front, while moving the bead outboard by 10mm. Hopefully this will clear the fender as the tire sidewall should be more vertical with a 1.3" wider wheel, but only 1.2" wider tire relative to stock.

In the rear, if I maintain the factory axle width of 69-7/8" the wheel moves 5/8" outboard and 1-5/16" inboard. Again, the sidewall bulge will be reduced so moving the wheel slightly outboard should not be a huge deal, but 5/8" seems too much even with less tire bulge. I am contemplating narrowing the axle 3/8" per side to make sure the 10" wheel/tire combo doesn't hit the fender as I am slightly lowered with the fender lip about 1/2" above the factory tire. This puts the wheel beed 1/4" outboard compared to stock, but the tire bulge will be much less than stock (2" wider wheel, 1.2" wider tire). From my measurements it appears an additional 1-3/4" (axle narrowed 3/4" total) inboard rear clearance is available.

The tire combination mentioned maintains a 5% stagger like factory, with the diameter 0.1" larger. Here is a nice calculator (http://www.rimsntires.com/specspro.jsp). And there are a few same-model performance tire options in these size options, I would probably go with Pirelli P-zero.

Thoughts?

[babbage]

Does your camper/trailer have brakes? Sounds like you are going in the deep end.. Hope it works for you, you seem to have it all thought out. Pirelli P-zero is a good high end tire.

[Zack]

Pics of the 9" installed please

[lifespeed]

Does your camper/trailer have brakes? Sounds like you are going in the deep end.. Hope it works for you, you seem to have it all thought out. Pirelli P-zero is a good high end tire.

There are no brakes on the trailer, although it weighs 1,400 lbs empty. Probably 1,600 lbs loaded and another 400 lbs inside the car ready to go.

Yes, definitely going in the deep end on this one. I thought about it a lot. The bearing/axle issue is never going to work long term with the stock rearend especially once a load is added. I thought about modifying to pressed-on bearings with new housing ends from Dutchman Axles, but this does not address brake piston knockback of the Wilwood calipers and axle shaft flex as well as a full floater.

And then there is the issue of suspension binding from the 4-link Metco urethane bushings. While the Metco trailing arms are a decent product, there is no escaping the issue of suspension bind during uneven compression side to side. This is just part of a 4-link design. So as part of the axle installation I will be losing the upper trailing arms and adding a torque arm and crossmember to control axle rotation and set the pinion angle. I am hiring a pro with a good track record for the fab work. This type of suspension has very little bind. I think this is going to make a significant improvement in ride and handling at the rear and should let me put more spring rate and shock damping in the rear while still retaining a good ride.

Lastly, the factory axle is fantastically heavy! I haven't weighed it, but it must be over 250 lbs with brakes. That is a lot of unsprung weight. The Speedway Engineering Grand National axle with aluminum third member, aluminum hubs , hatless rotors and gun-drilled axle shafts should take at least 50 lbs off the axle assembly. This will also help with ride, handling and allow increased spring and damping.

I have to admit I am concerned about the scope of the project on my daily driver. But the guy doing the work is very good and has done it numerous times on Mustangs with the Speedway axle. He really knows his stuff. And I bought a junkyard axle to use as a bracket welding reference so my car is disabled for a shorter time.

Delivery of the axle is three weeks out, and the appointment at the fab shop a little further. It will be awhile before pictures happen, but I'll put some up.

[GetMeMyStogie]

If you need help finding the 5% tire combo, try this:

Adams tiresizer
(http://googledrive.com/host/0B-Sc8CxhBdxHLV81Q2NlbVBWaXc)
It only helps you pick out tire sizes within the 3-7% allowed by the MM traction control, nothing else.

[crownvic05]

MOTOWN, you mind posting a few pics of your set up. I understand you have 20's with big tires. I'm a fan of fat tires and am considering 20s for my vic.

[Spectragod]

Yes, definitely going in the deep end on this one. I thought about it a lot. The bearing/axle issue is never going to work long term with the stock rearend especially once a load is added. I thought about modifying to pressed-on bearings with new housing ends from Dutchman Axles, but this does not address brake piston knockback of the Wilwood calipers and axle shaft flex as well as a full floater.


I considered new housing ends, most everyone told me to avoid street use with them as they would leak.

Considered a 9", found a guy who would do one and had done 2, in 2 different Panther race cars, he advised against it, I would have lost my air ride, abs, traction control etc., and would have been on the hook for a ton of money.

We wound up machining new C clips to take the floating out of my axles, and that has worked like a champ for 2 years. I also had the 8.8 built while it was apart just for good measure.

[Todd TCE]

My kits came with an assortment of oversized C-clips and adjustment of perhaps .007-.010" float was outlined in the instructions.

[lifespeed]

I considered new housing ends, most everyone told me to avoid street use with them as they would leak.

You are thinking of hack job c-clip eliminators with ball bearings. You can install real pressed-on tapered roller bearings by welding on the correct housing end. Dutchman axles does this, and even provides the ABS tone ring. I did not choose this route, but they have proven results with police vehicles. And no leaks, just like any decent semi-floating axle setup.


Considered a 9", found a guy who would do one and had done 2, in 2 different Panther race cars, he advised against it, I would have lost my air ride, abs, traction control etc., and would have been on the hook for a ton of money.

It is all in the implementation. The 9" is significantly lighter when built with aluminum components, which is a huge deal for unsprung weight, ride and handling. Ladder bar drag racing suspension is known not to articulate. I will be using torque arm suspension which is considered one of the best live axle suspensions for ride and handling. Why would a 9" axle preclude the use of air ride? I will be keeping mine by fabricating the appropriate spring perches. I will use the stock-style Watt's link to retain the ride height sensor and fabricate a mount to the third member. I will also fabricate ABS tone rings to go on the brake rotor adapter keeping the traction control and ABS.

It all depends on what you're willing to do. I've got a good fabricator who will start work on the axle housing at the end of this month.

You are correct about the cost, it is a lot.


We wound up machining new C clips to take the floating out of my axles, and that has worked like a champ for 2 years. I also had the 8.8 built while it was apart just for good measure.

I'm glad you're happy with your results. I reduced the axle end play during the rebuild and TCE brake install. Brake piston knockback will always exist with C-clips, just less. That approach won't work for me, I need to solve the bearing/shaft problem as well. Floating hubs are far superior for wheel control (no axle flex), braking and longevity. C-clip axles are just your typical lowest-bidder get-through-the warranty period compromise, there is nothing at all to recommend their use other than we're stuck with them.

[1Marauder]

It's been a while, but this has turned into a major undertaking with the addition of a 9" Ford floating hub rear axle. I am about to pull the trigger and have arrived at the following configuration.

The American Racing AR883 20" X 8.5" +40mm offset widened to 9.3" in the front with a 265/35-20 front tire and 10" in the rear with 275/40-20 tire.

This will maintain the factory scrub radius in the front, while moving the bead outboard by 10mm. Hopefully this will clear the fender as the tire sidewall should be more vertical with a 1.3" wider wheel, but only 1.2" wider tire relative to stock.

In the rear, if I maintain the factory axle width of 69-7/8" the wheel moves 5/8" outboard and 1-5/16" inboard. Again, the sidewall bulge will be reduced so moving the wheel slightly outboard should not be a huge deal, but 5/8" seems too much even with less tire bulge. I am contemplating narrowing the axle 3/8" per side to make sure the 10" wheel/tire combo doesn't hit the fender as I am slightly lowered with the fender lip about 1/2" above the factory tire. This puts the wheel beed 1/4" outboard compared to stock, but the tire bulge will be much less than stock (2" wider wheel, 1.2" wider tire). From my measurements it appears an additional 1-3/4" (axle narrowed 3/4" total) inboard rear clearance is available.

The tire combination mentioned maintains a 5% stagger like factory, with the diameter 0.1" larger. Here is a nice calculator (http://www.rimsntires.com/specspro.jsp). And there are a few same-model performance tire options in these size options, I would probably go with Pirelli P-zero.

Thoughts?


Michelin over the Pirellis 100 times over...

[lifespeed]

Michelin over the Pirellis 100 times over...

I appreciate the thought and have enjoyed the Michelin Pilot Sport 3 235/40-18 on my Focus Titanium with handling package.

Michelin does not make the rear tire in my 265/35-20 and 275/40-20 size combination, but does make the front in Pilot Super Sport. The Marauder 5% tire stagger is problematic. In a matched set, same brand and model, the Pirelli's are the only game in town. If I mix and match front and rear there are more options.

[RubberCtyRauder]

Stagger is a little greater range than 5%. Can go as low as 3% or up to 5 or 6 %

[GetMeMyStogie]

Stagger is a little greater range than 5%. Can go as low as 3% or up to 5 or 6 %

This is only half correct. The upper limit is more like 7%.

235/50/18 + 255/55/18 is a commonly used setup, with a difference of 6.6%.

[lifespeed]

This is only half correct. The upper limit is more like 7%.

235/50/18 + 255/55/18 is a commonly used setup, with a difference of 6.6%.

So where did these numbers that are tossed about so casually come from? It didn't take long for me to notice that stock fronts and 255/55-18 rears were causing the ABS to trigger early. Yeah, I know the traction control doesn't trigger under normal driving conditions. But I consider the brake function pretty important! I spoke with another Marauder owner with 255 rears and he said the same thing.

I'm sticking with 5%.

[GetMeMyStogie]

So where did these numbers that are tossed about so casually come from? It didn't take long for me to notice that stock fronts and 255/55-18 rears were causing the ABS to trigger early. Yeah, I know the traction control doesn't trigger under normal driving conditions. But I consider the brake function pretty important! I spoke with another Marauder owner with 255 rears and he said the same thing.

I'm sticking with 5%.

Lots of members have posted their satisfaction running 255/55/18 rears:

http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1378634&postcount=11
http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1442940&postcount=37
http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1433773&postcount=14
http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1428752&postcount=11
http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=782886&postcount=20
http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=766173&postcount=7


Nobody has been able to confirm that the tolerance for the rear:front [diameter|circumference] ratio is a firm +/- 2% (that is, from 1.03 to 1.07). Unless one of the engineers who designed the MM all those years ago chimes in conclusively, actual experience reported by users is the only evidence we have to go on.
Some have pointed out that 1.033 has tripped the TC at the low end, and now you and another are saying that 1.066 trips the TC at the high end, so it would seem that a tolerance of +/- 1.5% is a safer bet (that is, from 1.035 to 1.065).

Personally, if I were going to run 255/55/18 rears, I'd run 245/50/18 fronts. But this thread is about 20 inch wheels.

[justbob]

Permanently disable T/C and own a drivers car. Done. [emoji4]


Builder Of Badassery

[lifespeed]

Lots of members have posted their satisfaction running 255/55/18 rears:

Nobody has been able to confirm that the tolerance for the rear:front [diameter|circumference] ratio is a firm +/- 2% (that is, from 1.03 to 1.07). Unless one of the engineers who designed the MM all those years ago chimes in conclusively, actual experience reported by users is the only evidence we have to go on.
Some have pointed out that 1.033 has tripped the TC at the low end, and now you and another are saying that 1.066 trips the TC at the high end, so it would seem that a tolerance of +/- 1.5% is a safer bet (that is, from 1.035 to 1.065).

Personally, if I were going to run 255/55/18 rears, I'd run 245/50/18 fronts. But this thread is about 20 inch wheels.

I said it triggered the ABS too early, not the traction control. I consider braking pretty important and will not be screwing it up. You do whatever you like with your car.

[Zack]

Do you mean the ABS LIGHT?

[lifespeed]

Do you mean the ABS LIGHT?

No, the pedal pulsing. The ABS activates prematurely. I talked to another member with 255 rears and they noticed the same thing.

[justbob]

Even easier. ABS delete kit. It's never once helped me over the years like my truck and van. The Marauders ABS SUCKS!


Builder Of Badassery

[lifespeed]

Even easier. ABS delete kit. It's never once helped me over the years like my truck and van. The Marauders ABS SUCKS!

You know I won't take the easy way out.

[lifespeed]

Here are the widened 20" X 10" AR883 with Pirelli P-Zero 275/40ZR20 rubber. Note the near-vertical sidewall for maximum lateral G. Looks like the lug nut seat is a different angle from the stock wheels.

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/IMG_1299.jpg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/IMG_1300.jpg

[RubberCtyRauder]

edit: pics now work

[Bad_S55]

SHINY!!! You'll be running 275/40s up front too?

[RubberCtyRauder]

60 degree conical seat is the lug nut bore onthese according to AR website, pretty sure that is same for Maraduer rims and sort of a standard for the lug nut seat on most rims

[J-MAN]

Liken' those wheels. Hope the new brakes work as planned, will stay tuned in.

[lifespeed]

60 degree conical seat is the lug nut bore onthese according to AR website, pretty sure that is same for Maraduer rims and sort of a standard for the lug nut seat on most rims
After further review, I believe you are correct.

However, the nuts are much closer to the wall of the lug hole in the wheel. Either a thin wall socket is required, or a half inch lug nut with a smaller socket size.

[lifespeed]

SHINY!!! You'll be running 275/40s up front too?
265/35ZR20 on the front 9.3" widened (originally) 40mm offset wheel, preserving the OEM offset and scrub radius. Stock 5% stagger and diameter, but lower profile and wider. Rear fenders clear when lowered.

[1Marauder]

YES! They should have come with a special THIN LUG NUT/SOCKET.

IF not you might call them and order it or simply find one. On a previous car I had one wheel scuffed in every lug opening by some kid who wasn't thinking and didn't use the socket I gave him! Tire shop had to buy a new wheel. Manger wasn't happy until I said, "Heck man, I stopped the kid from ruining the three other wheels--It could have been 4 times worse. Where were you?"

I really like your wheels, and cant wait to hear/see how they fit!

[lifespeed]

Here they are after two different centerbore concentric rings arrived (rears will fit a 0.2mm larger floating axle hub). No, the 9" rear isn't in there yet. But the TCE Wilwood Aero6 front brakes with 14" X 1.25" rotors are! Pads are Carbotech 1521 (street) compound.

Both ride quality and handling are much improved. The upgraded shocks and springs could only do so much with those big 50/55 series balloons on there. As I have mentioned before, the upgraded suspension just wasn't seeing it's orders carried out through those high-profile factory sized tires.

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/wheel_IMG_20151206_164004_sm.j pg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/wheel_IMG_20151206_163945_sm.j pg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/wheel_IMG_20151206_164114_sm.j pg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/wheel_IMG_20151206_164038_sm.j pg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/wheel_IMG_20151206_164053_sm.j pg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/wheel_IMG_20151206_165414_sm.j pg

http://www.claybuccellato.com/pictures/marauder_wheels/wheel_IMG_20151206_165428_sm.j pg

[MOTOWN]

Outstanding!!!!!!!!!! I cannot believe how good it turned out, the offset is perfect, very well done sir!

[MOTOWN]

Couple of questions, what are your thoughts so far on the Aero 6 setup? And are the Carbotech pads less dusty than the willwood bp10 pads?

[Todd TCE]

Looks great!

[justbob]

It looks like the rims are too wide for the tires?


Builder Of Badassery

[lifespeed]

Couple of questions, what are your thoughts so far on the Aero 6 setup? And are the Carbotech pads less dusty than the willwood bp10 pads?

It is too early to know anything about their long term wear, not even sure about dust yet. I'll know more in a few weeks.

[lifespeed]

It looks like the rims are too wide for the tires?

The wheel design places the spokes outboard of the bead and does give it that appearance. Great for clearing fixed-piston brake calipers, but it does change the look of the wheel. That is perhaps the biggest difference from the appearance of the stock Marauder wheel.

Look at the photos of the tires and wheels off the car, you'll see the sidewalls are very close to vertical.

[lifespeed]

Outstanding!!!!!!!!!! I cannot believe how good it turned out, the offset is perfect, very well done sir!

Thanks! I haven't noticed any twitching or tugging at the steering wheel, so perhaps I did manage to keep the factory offset in a wider front wheel.

[lifespeed]

These Pirelli P-zeroes pick up pebbles from the roadway and fling them up into the fender wells! It sounds like I just drove over fresh asphalt when the tar is still soft ,the way it picks up small rocks and flings them. The tires must be really sticky. I wonder what tire life will be like . . .

[NXSBOB]

It looks like the rims are too wide for the tires?

I agree. :alone:
Be careful parallel parking. :bigcry:

[Zack]

Pass for me